Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Cartinus schrieb: But when routing for pedestrians, you will want to be able to reach the bus stops. This and the rest is very valid reasoning. Therefore I also convinced that bus_stops deserve a node besides the road. -- Karl Eichwalder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
graham wrote: Steve Hill wrote: How are people tagging bus stops? I have been setting tagging nodes that are members of the way, which means they are part of the road they are on. Is this the right way to do it? It seems right since it unambiguously shows which road the stop is on, but it doesn't allow any indication as to which side of the road the stop is on. I've been doing the opposite, and have only recently realised that your way is the way I was supposed to do it.. I have mapped quite a few bus stops where the bus stop is on a pedestrian island and I want to show not only 'side of road' but also a fairly exact physical position. I'd be reluctant to give that up to plonk all my bus stops in the middle of the road... I wonder if anyone has done any counts of how many stops in the db are points in ways, and how many are points beside ways? I did think that was the counts Jon included in his earlier post? The 'highway' counts show 13532 bus stops, but yours must be in the 216 independent objects? The 'side' information has a number of areas that need covering other than just bus stop or halt location. No right/left turn from other side of road for example. And the problem of pedestrian routing showing things like safe crossing points adds another level of complexity. p.s. adding all the pedestrian crossings and bus stops on the South Circular in London along with all the no right turn alternate routes and information on which lane you should be in would probably cover EVERY possible option. How do people cope around there? Took me 2 hours to get from Croydon around to the M4 yesterday :( I'll use the M25 next time ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Lester Caine schreef: graham wrote: Steve Hill wrote: How are people tagging bus stops? I have been setting tagging nodes that are members of the way, which means they are part of the road they are on. Is this the right way to do it? It seems right since it unambiguously shows which road the stop is on, but it doesn't allow any indication as to which side of the road the stop is on. I've been doing the opposite, and have only recently realised that your way is the way I was supposed to do it.. I have mapped quite a few bus stops where the bus stop is on a pedestrian island and I want to show not only 'side of road' but also a fairly exact physical position. I'd be reluctant to give that up to plonk all my bus stops in the middle of the road... I wonder if anyone has done any counts of how many stops in the db are points in ways, and how many are points beside ways? I did think that was the counts Jon included in his earlier post? The 'highway' counts show 13532 bus stops, but yours must be in the 216 independent objects? The 'side' information has a number of areas that need covering other than just bus stop or halt location. No right/left turn from other side of road for example. And the problem of pedestrian routing showing things like safe crossing points adds another level of complexity. p.s. adding all the pedestrian crossings and bus stops on the South Circular in London along with all the no right turn alternate routes and information on which lane you should be in would probably cover EVERY possible option. How do people cope around there? Took me 2 hours to get from Croydon around to the M4 yesterday :( I'll use the M25 next time ;) When I tag a bus stop, I always use highway=bus_stop. I didn't know about the amenity=bus_stop. I put them next to the road though. So the count we would like to see is independent/loose highway=bus_stop and highway=bus_stop that are actually part of a highway. Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Niclas Andersson wrote: I've always used a node in the way to represent a bus stop. This works fine when there's a stop on each side of the road. Otherwise I've made use of the bus_direction=(N|S|E|W) tag (from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Buses ) on the node to indicate in which direction the stop is for, which I believe should work fairly well. Ah, I hadn't come across the bus_direction tag - that looks like a good solution. Thanks. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Cartinus wrote: Up till now I used the node in the road method. But lately I have been thinking about how routing applications would use osm data. I doubt bus companies will be using osm to route their busses. But when routing for pedestrians, you will want to be able to reach the bus stops. Bus companies may not want to to use it for routing, but someone else might want to run a route planner for getting from A to B by public transport and on foot (there is one run by the UK government already I think?). This would need to take account of bus stop location, direction as well as data from other sources such as bus timetables. I think this is the one I was thinking of: http://www.transportdirect.info - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Steve Hill wrote: I think this is the one I was thinking of: http://www.transportdirect.info No, sorry, it was probably http://www.traveline.org.uk/ - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a difficult problem - I can't think of any way to tell (from existing data) whether a road is safe to cross without an explicit pedestrian crossing. You can't just go on whether it is primary, secondary, etc - there are quite a few secondary roads which can be crossed without any trouble but there are also a lot where you wouldn't dream of crossing them (or indeed, can't cross them because there is a fence on the central reservation). Perhaps the speed limit tagging could help? I guess it is normally fine to cross in a 30mph limit, but not in a 60mph limit without a dedicated crossing. There are proposals for tagging the crossings. It is interesting that the lane proposal here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations/Proposed/Lane doesn't have anything about whether the road is safe to cross or barriers in the middle... Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Nick wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a difficult problem - I can't think of any way to tell (from existing data) whether a road is safe to cross without an explicit pedestrian crossing. You can't just go on whether it is primary, secondary, etc - there are quite a few secondary roads which can be crossed without any trouble but there are also a lot where you wouldn't dream of crossing them (or indeed, can't cross them because there is a fence on the central reservation). Perhaps the speed limit tagging could help? I guess it is normally fine to cross in a 30mph limit, but not in a 60mph limit without a dedicated crossing. There are proposals for tagging the crossings. It is interesting that the lane proposal here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations/Proposed/Lane doesn't have anything about whether the road is safe to cross or barriers in the middle... I was thinking more about actual crossing points, such as zebra crossings, pedestrian ways at traffic lights, central safety islands, pavement crossing indicators for the visually impaired, and so on perhaps I should have listed them :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
How are people tagging bus stops? I have been setting tagging nodes that are members of the way, which means they are part of the road they are on. Is this the right way to do it? It seems right since it unambiguously shows which road the stop is on, but it doesn't allow any indication as to which side of the road the stop is on. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
I must admit that I have never liked the use of such a large symbol (green bus) for bus stops on the mapnik layer. I would be inclined to use that for bus stations and design a smaller symbol for road-side bus stops (yet can think of no suitable symbol just now - except perhaps a small green loppypop). However, the disparity is usage shown by Jon's stats rather puts me off doing that just now. By usage bus station seems to be predominantly considered an an amenity, and bus stops a highway feature. Cheers STEVE Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow Learning and Technical Support Unit Manager School of Health and Social Sciences Middlesex University phone/fax: 020 8411 5355 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mdx.ac.uk/schools/hssc/staff/profiles/technical/chiltons.asp Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/ SoC conference 2008: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cartographers08/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Burgess Sent: 06 April 2008 13:26 To: Steven te Brinke Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 13:38 +0200, Steven te Brinke wrote: Hello, The current mapnik rules will render amenity=bus_stop, but the map features define it as amenity=bus_station. Steven I seem to remember that the rendering for amenity=bus_stop was put in because it was in use prior to the approval of highway=bus_stop in Map_Features. It was never intended to be bus_station. We should probably render amenity=bus_station too but we should use a more significant icon and render them at lower zooms. The counts of the different 'bus*' values from the latest planet dump are below for reference... gis= select amenity,count(amenity) as number from planet_osm_point where amenity like 'bus%' group by amenity order by number desc; amenity | number -+ bus_station | 1051 bus_stop|216 bus stop| 5 bus_depot | 3 bus_terminal| 2 busstop | 2 bus_parking | 2 bus station | 1 business_park | 1 business centre | 1 bus_stop? | 1 (11 rows) gis= select highway,count(highway) as number from planet_osm_point where highway like 'bus%' group by highway order by number desc; highway | number --+ bus_stop | 13532 bus_halt |230 bus_station | 69 bus stop | 4 busstop | 4 bus_stop | 2 bus_sluice | 1 bus_stop:forward | 1 (8 rows) Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Steve Hill wrote: How are people tagging bus stops? I have been setting tagging nodes that are members of the way, which means they are part of the road they are on. Is this the right way to do it? It seems right since it unambiguously shows which road the stop is on, but it doesn't allow any indication as to which side of the road the stop is on. I've been doing the opposite, and have only recently realised that your way is the way I was supposed to do it.. I have mapped quite a few bus stops where the bus stop is on a pedestrian island and I want to show not only 'side of road' but also a fairly exact physical position. I'd be reluctant to give that up to plonk all my bus stops in the middle of the road... I wonder if anyone has done any counts of how many stops in the db are points in ways, and how many are points beside ways? Graham - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, graham wrote: I have mapped quite a few bus stops where the bus stop is on a pedestrian island and I want to show not only 'side of road' but also a fairly exact physical position. I'd be reluctant to give that up to plonk all my bus stops in the middle of the road... Sounds like a job for a relation (but there are quite enough relation arguments going on at the moment :) - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
graham wrote: I've been doing the opposite, and have only recently realised that your way is the way I was supposed to do it.. I have mapped quite a few bus stops where the bus stop is on a pedestrian island and I want to show not only 'side of road' but also a fairly exact physical position. I'd be reluctant to give that up to plonk all my bus stops in the middle of the road... [...] I've always used a node in the way to represent a bus stop. This works fine when there's a stop on each side of the road. Otherwise I've made use of the bus_direction=(N|S|E|W) tag (from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Buses ) on the node to indicate in which direction the stop is for, which I believe should work fairly well. Then the renderers or alike can use that to move them off a bit to the side when displayed if wanted. /Niclas Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Tuesday 08 April 2008 14:53:40 graham wrote: Steve Hill wrote: How are people tagging bus stops? I have been setting tagging nodes that are members of the way, which means they are part of the road they are on. Is this the right way to do it? It seems right since it unambiguously shows which road the stop is on, but it doesn't allow any indication as to which side of the road the stop is on. I've been doing the opposite, and have only recently realised that your way is the way I was supposed to do it.. There is no way you are supposed to do it. Both methods are equally valid. Both have their pros and cons. Up till now I used the node in the road method. But lately I have been thinking about how routing applications would use osm data. I doubt bus companies will be using osm to route their busses. But when routing for pedestrians, you will want to be able to reach the bus stops. Around here a lot of bus routes follow roads that are not accessible for pedestrians. The bus stop is then accessible e.g. from the back (from a parallel road/cycleway) or by a short section of sidewalk (from the nearest crossing). Since way-objects have no width you need to draw a piece of non-existing footway in the first case. The second case leads to splitting of the way into sections (foot=no for most of the road and no foot= tag for the section with the sidewalk. I haven't found an simple and easy way to tag all this. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Hi, The current mapnik rules will render amenity=bus_stop, but the map features define it as amenity=bus_station. highway=bus_stop: A small bus stop. Larger stations should be tagged as amenity=bus_station instead. Best regards, ce ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Sunday 06 April 2008 12:38:59 Steven te Brinke wrote: Hello, The current mapnik rules will render amenity=bus_stop, but the map features define it as amenity=bus_station. Well, in my mind a bus stop and a bus station are different amenities. A bus stop is just a place where the bus will stop by the side of the road whereas a bus station is a larger place containing many 'bus stops' and perhaps with a large covered waiting area - akin to a train station. In this case, amenity=bus_stop should be added to the Map Features page. Matt Williams signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
Matt Williams schrieb: On Sunday 06 April 2008 12:38:59 Steven te Brinke wrote: Hello, The current mapnik rules will render amenity=bus_stop, but the map features define it as amenity=bus_station. Well, in my mind a bus stop and a bus station are different amenities. A bus stop is just a place where the bus will stop by the side of the road whereas a bus station is a larger place containing many 'bus stops' and perhaps with a large covered waiting area - akin to a train station. In this case, amenity=bus_stop should be added to the Map Features page. Well, map features lists highway=bus_stop already. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: amenity=bus_station
On Sun, 2008-04-06 at 13:38 +0200, Steven te Brinke wrote: Hello, The current mapnik rules will render amenity=bus_stop, but the map features define it as amenity=bus_station. Steven I seem to remember that the rendering for amenity=bus_stop was put in because it was in use prior to the approval of highway=bus_stop in Map_Features. It was never intended to be bus_station. We should probably render amenity=bus_station too but we should use a more significant icon and render them at lower zooms. The counts of the different 'bus*' values from the latest planet dump are below for reference... gis= select amenity,count(amenity) as number from planet_osm_point where amenity like 'bus%' group by amenity order by number desc; amenity | number -+ bus_station | 1051 bus_stop|216 bus stop| 5 bus_depot | 3 bus_terminal| 2 busstop | 2 bus_parking | 2 bus station | 1 business_park | 1 business centre | 1 bus_stop? | 1 (11 rows) gis= select highway,count(highway) as number from planet_osm_point where highway like 'bus%' group by highway order by number desc; highway | number --+ bus_stop | 13532 bus_halt |230 bus_station | 69 bus stop | 4 busstop | 4 bus_stop | 2 bus_sluice | 1 bus_stop:forward | 1 (8 rows) Jon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
