Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 05:42:25PM +0100, Jack Stringer wrote: My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. But precise latin specie name is a universal identifier (rather than a „human readable” name), which can be easily translated to local names by automated means. For some species, I guess, there will be no English name, but there may be a local name. And Latin name will always be defined. We could allow entering English names for users that do not know Latin equivalents though, and convert those later by bots. Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
No real opinion on the question whether to use the scientific names or not, but if you do, please do _not_ use name:la for that purpose, because this would be how the ancient romans (or the speakers of Modern Latin) call the animals. Regards, Marc -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
--- On Thu, 9/7/09, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: please do _not_ use name:la for that purpose, because this would be how the ancient romans (or the speakers of Modern Latin) call the animals. What about name:scientific or name:sci ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Jacek Konieczny wrote: On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 05:42:25PM +0100, Jack Stringer wrote: My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. But precise latin specie name is a universal identifier (rather than a „human readable” name), which can be easily translated to local names by automated means. For some species, I guess, there will be no English name, but there may be a local name. And Latin name will always be defined. If we're tagging zoo enclosures, then the name= tag represents the name of the enclosure (in the local language), rather than the name of the animals within it. This is an important distinction, as zoo enclosures often have their own special names, like 'Gorilla Kingdom' and 'Giants of the Galapagos' (London Zoo [1]) or 'Elephants of the Asian Forest' and 'Realm of the Red Ape' (Chester Zoo [2]). Looking at the existing well-tagged zoos (which all seem to be in Germany), there seem to be a few examples (eg Leipzig Zoo) of attraction=animal and animal=*. There's also amenity=vivarium, which I had to look up in a dictionary (and which isn't yet documented on the wiki). I'm not sure what we do where there are multiple types of animal in one enclosure - the preferred approach seems to be semi-colon separated? I'm going to visit Chester Zoo next week, so if we can work this out, I'll try and do some mapping whilst I'm there... :-) Frankie [1] http://www.zsl.org/zsl-london-zoo/exhibits/ [2] http://www.chesterzoo.org/Visit/GettingAround/Zoo%20Map.aspx -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Marc Schütz schuetzm at gmx.net writes: No real opinion on the question whether to use the scientific names or not, but if you do, please do _not_ use name:la for that purpose, because this would be how the ancient romans (or the speakers of Modern Latin) call the animals. Agreed - and more to the point, an animal's species is not its name! I do not answer to the name of 'homo sapiens' and neither do you. name:la=Rex species=Canis lupus familiaris I don't expect it will be common to add individual dogs to OSM, except perhaps in this case: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1267477.ece -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Frankie Roberto frankie at frankieroberto.com writes: If we're tagging zoo enclosures, then the name= tag represents the name of the enclosure (in the local language), rather than the name of the animals within it.This is an important distinction, as zoo enclosures often have their own special names, like 'Gorilla Kingdom' Agreed. Using 'name' for the type of animal is a case of tagging for the renderer, which is fine as a short-term way to make sure the OSM slippy map displays the layout of Berlin Zoo, but it's not the best way to model the data. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
John Smith delta_foxtrot at yahoo.com writes: [species of animals] What about name:scientific or name:sci ? It's still not really the name of the object on the ground, which is called 'The Reptile House', or even the name of the animal, which is called 'Lizzy the Lizard' or similar. So I think the right tagging is 'animal=Loxodonta africana' or 'species=Loxodonta africana', rather than putting it into 'name'. Local-language species names could be 'species:en=African elephant' or similar, though in principle they can be looked up automatically from the scientific name. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Jacek Konieczny wrote: On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 05:42:25PM +0100, Jack Stringer wrote: My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. But precise latin specie name is a universal identifier (rather than a „human readable” name), which can be easily translated to local names by automated means. For some species, I guess, there will be no English name, but there may be a local name. And Latin name will always be defined. As I'm presently working on a semantic application which includes bird catalogs, I can say that things aren't so easy (but aren't much harder). While the idea of using the latin name (a.k.a. binomial name) is a good idea (much better than localized names, that often are ambiguous), there isn't a universal catalog of names (my experience is limited to birds, but I expect my point is valid for other animals too). Instead there is a number of different taxonomies around, even though some are more commonly used than others (e.g. Clements for birds); probably the most complex point is that names don't stay the same in time, as taxonomies are constantly evolved and maintained; sometimes a single species name changes, sometimes the genus name changes, sometimes two different species are grouped into a single one, sometimes what is considered a single species with variants is split in multiple species. Thus, a good way to represent a species name would be a triple: taxonomy name, taxonomy year, binomial name. Eg. Clements, 2008, Larus canus would represent the Mew gull (not sure it's called Common gull throughout the whole world, BTW). This should be enough, and would make possible to specialized applications (such as mine) to find the semantic equivalence with other taxonomies, localized names and so on. While this might sound picky, in the Semantic Web perspective it is important to be picky. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Am 09.07.2009 12:16, Ed Avis: John Smithdelta_foxtrotat yahoo.com writes: [species of animals] What about name:scientific or name:sci ? It's still not really the name of the object on the ground, which is called 'The Reptile House', or even the name of the animal, which is called 'Lizzy the Lizard' or similar. So I think the right tagging is 'animal=Loxodonta africana' or 'species=Loxodonta africana', rather than putting it into 'name'. +1 I would go for species=latin species name as well. Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giudici at tidalwave.it writes: Thus, a good way to represent a species name would be a triple: taxonomy name, taxonomy year, binomial name. Eg. Clements, 2008, Larus canus species:Clements:2008=Larus canus That also allows for other taxonomies to be added at the same time, and for more general 'species:Clements' and just plain 'species' in cases where the taxonomy is well-established, or the person doing the tagging isn't an expert. (I would just use the species name on display at the zoo, and tag it as 'species', unless I were enough of an expert to be more specific.) -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Jack Stringer wrote: My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. We'd better think of another name for zoo then (and presumably catching the bus to get there is right out)? The Finns* are about the only people in Europe to have escaped the dash for Latin/Greek loanwords over the last couple of hundred years - the rest of us need to get inventing. (sorry, couldn't resist) Seriously, though - I'd have thought that using the local name makes sense as it's local people who are more likely to be using the map. Outside of (former) conflict zones there shouldn't be too much argument about what the local name is. I'd certainly agree (joke above aside) that using the latin name as the primary or only name is going to confuse people. * OK, after thinking about it, and the Irish and the Welsh, and probably quite a few others with a similar liguistic heritage. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 09:27:29AM +, John Smith wrote: --- On Thu, 9/7/09, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: please do _not_ use name:la for that purpose, because this would be how the ancient romans (or the speakers of Modern Latin) call the animals. What about name:scientific or name:sci ? Not name. Name of the object may be some quite different than the species it is for. A dog is named 'Spike' although it is of species 'Canis lupus'. name=Spike species=Canis lupus Even single trees (those important for some reason) may have their own names. E.g. the 'Washington Tree', which is much better object to be mapped in OSM then the dog Spike: natural=tree name=Washington Tree species=Sequoiadendron giganteum We could make it: species:scientific=Sequoiadendron giganteum or species:binomial=Sequoiadendron giganteum But why? For some objects there would be 'species:scientific=*' defined, but no 'species=*' value known in English (not every species on the Earth have English names). Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 11:03:05AM +, Ed Avis wrote: species:Clements:2008=Larus canus That also allows for other taxonomies to be added at the same time, and for more general 'species:Clements' and just plain 'species' in cases where the taxonomy is well-established, or the person doing the tagging isn't an expert. (I would just use the species name on display at the zoo, and tag it as 'species', unless I were enough of an expert to be more specific.) +1 Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
2009/7/9 Someoneelse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk: Jack Stringer wrote: My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. We'd better think of another name for zoo then (and presumably catching the bus to get there is right out)? The Finns* are about the only people in Europe to have escaped the dash for Latin/Greek loanwords over the last couple of hundred years - the rest of us need to get inventing. (sorry, couldn't resist) The term I remember hearing was 'English is a bastard language' we have taken what we want from different languages to make our own. So be it. If people want to go to the effort of creating a translation system for the maps then it would be fine to use the Latin (what ever) term. But for now OSM is still very new and so mapping stuff with the general name should be fine for now. I only said to use English because the tags are in most cases English. Rather tagging an enclosure 'Lesser Spotted Mapper' it should be labelled as 'Mappers' because the Zoo may change the breed or might put several breeds in the same enclosure. Longleat Zoo has areas that you can drive though that contain several different animals. Zebra, Giraffe etc. How would you label that? A dog is named 'Spike' although it is of species 'Canis lupus'. name=Spike species=Canis lupus That idea works but does not work so well for a Zoo that may have 10+ animals in it all called different names. Are we going to map the breads in the enclosure or just the type of animal? For the average person who is going to use the map, I think that using the name tag and using a general understandable term would do. If a spotter wants to have the species tags etc. then they can add them in but the map must remain accessible to the users who wish to use it. Jack Stringer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Ed Avis wrote: Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giudici at tidalwave.it writes: Thus, a good way to represent a species name would be a triple: taxonomy name, taxonomy year, binomial name. Eg. Clements, 2008, Larus canus species:Clements:2008=Larus canus That also allows for other taxonomies to be added at the same time, and for more general 'species:Clements' and just plain 'species' in cases where the taxonomy is well-established, or the person doing the tagging isn't an expert. (I would just use the species name on display at the zoo, and tag it as 'species', unless I were enough of an expert to be more specific.) Sounds ok. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
2009/7/9 Jacek Konieczny jaj...@jajcus.net: On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 09:27:29AM +, John Smith wrote: --- On Thu, 9/7/09, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: please do _not_ use name:la for that purpose, because this would be how the ancient romans (or the speakers of Modern Latin) call the animals. What about name:scientific or name:sci ? Not name. Name of the object may be some quite different than the species it is for. A dog is named 'Spike' although it is of species 'Canis lupus'. name=Spike species=Canis lupus Even single trees (those important for some reason) may have their own names. E.g. the 'Washington Tree', which is much better object to be mapped in OSM then the dog Spike: natural=tree name=Washington Tree species=Sequoiadendron giganteum We could make it: species:scientific=Sequoiadendron giganteum +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Jack wrote: Longleat Zoo has areas that you can drive though that contain several different animals. Zebra, Giraffe etc. How would you label that? Firstly as Safari Park rather than Zoo. But looking here: http://www.longleat.co.uk/safari-park/safari-journey.html for the area you mention: name=East African Game Reserve animal=whatever and species=whatever tags optional... Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names (was: Potted plants vs. garden beds)
2009/7/7 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com:
Ed Avis eda at waniasset.com writes:
Rather than plant_type=orange_tree or similar, I think it would make more
sense
to tag plants and trees with the scientific (Latin) name of their species or
hybrid. These are already standardized and the local language translations
('citrus x sinensis' = 'en:orange', 'es:naranja') are also standard, and can
be
looked up by the map renderer rather than duplicated for every orange tree on
the map.
I don't expect individual plants will be tagged very often (even the Germans
have not added the 'unter den' linden trees) but for managed forests and
perhaps
farmland it might be useful.
I thought of mentioning zoo animals but I thought it too silly. But look:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.50826lon=13.33929zoom=17layers=B000FTF
I think this would be better tagged with scientific names for the animals
rather
than 'name' holding the local-language names. Then the mapnik rendering rules
can be extended with little icons for penguins, polar bears and so on. We
could
even have little fish swimming in the oceans like the maps in olden days.
on the ground rule applies... name should be the local language.
If you want to add a species_taxonomy (or similar) tag then feel free. :-)
Dave
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Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
Dave Stubbs osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk writes: Rather than plant_type=orange_tree or similar, I think it would make more sense to tag plants and trees with the scientific (Latin) name of their species or hybrid. [zoos] I think this would be better tagged with scientific names for the animals rather than 'name' holding the local-language names. on the ground rule applies... name should be the local language. That rule applies in the case of disputes that can't otherwise be resolved. The on the ground rule particularly applies to names, but not to classifications; the photographic museum in Berlin has name=Museum für Fotografie, following the rule you mention, but it is classified as amenity=arts_centre, not amenity=Kunstzentrum. Arguably name=Knut would be more appropriate than name=Eisbären... If you want to add a species_taxonomy (or similar) tag then feel free. Yes, I'm not proposing that the 'name' tag should change to Latin, but rather the introduction of a different tag, and that in some cases 'name' should disappear. (A particular enclosure at the zoo might not have a name.) I am not sure whether this or flowerbeds is of greater importance to the project, however ;-p. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names
My rule of thumb would of be label it in english rather that local name. But that's because I am english. Using latin would put some people off from tagging Zoos. Jack On Jul 8, 2009 5:17 PM, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Dave Stubbs osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk writes: Rather than plant_type=orange_tree or similar, I think it would make more sense to tag plants and trees with the scientific (Latin) name of their species or hybrid. [zoos] I think this would be better tagged with scientific names for the animals rather than 'name' holding the local-language names. on the ground rule applies... name should be the local language. That rule applies in the case of disputes that can't otherwise be resolved. The on the ground rule particularly applies to names, but not to classifications; the photographic museum in Berlin has name=Museum für Fotografie, following the rule you mention, but it is classified as amenity=arts_centre, not amenity=Kunstzentrum. Arguably name=Knut would be more appropriate than name=Eisbären... If you want to add a species_taxonomy (or similar) tag then feel free. Yes, I'm not proposing that the 'name' tag should change to Latin, but rather the introduction of a different tag, and that in some cases 'name' should disappear. (A particular enclosure at the zoo might not have a name.) I am not sure whether this or flowerbeds is of greater importance to the project, however ;-p. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Species names (was: Potted plants vs. garden beds)
--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: and so on. We could even have little fish swimming in the oceans like the maps in olden days. Do you mark Ye be dragons here on the map too? :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
