Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. I do understand, that OSM-people will not be responsible for malicious use, possibly death of innocent humans caused by them or their work. But this could be caused also by you, if you buy something and thus support a person, who will be able to harm with that benefit. Thus nobody can really avoid things, that will harm other people in any way. The second thing is, that the military is also involved in humanitarian projects as well (i.e. New Orleans or deescalation projects). There will nobody be able to distinguish, where the good will end and the bad will begin. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
On 8 February 2010 01:12, Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de wrote: I do understand, that OSM-people will not be responsible for malicious use, possibly death of innocent humans caused by them or their work. But this could be caused also by you, if you buy something and thus support a person, who will be able to harm with that benefit. Thus nobody can really avoid things, that will harm other people in any way. The second thing is, that the military is also involved in humanitarian projects as well (i.e. New Orleans or deescalation projects). There will nobody be able to distinguish, where the good will end and the bad will begin. Aside from that, anyone looking to do bad things to others I'm sure breaching a license will be the least of their moral dilemmas. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
Op 04-02-10 15:49, Martin Koppenhoefer schreef: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. Why should my ministry of Defense or Secret Service be prevented the use of OpenStreetMap, the data is publicly available, thus doesn't contain any secret information. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
On 04/02/2010 14:49, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. No. Free means free, and that includes people and organisations that you don't agree with. Once we start imposing politically-based decisions on who can or can't use the data, we stop being a resource and start being a pressure group, and that's not what I believe OSM to be about. How do you determine what's military use, anyway? Is a private contractor working for the armed forces military use? Is a member of the armed forces working in their spare time military use? More pertinently, is members of armed forces working in an area recently hit by a natural disaster military use? -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. This same issue exists with all Free Software. A bad government may use it for bad purposes- but let's address this in two ways 1) Who is to say what bad is? Some software in the 80s and 90s had in the license that it couldn't be used in South Africa due to apartheid. Now apartheid is over, and they still can't use the software. How silly. Also, let's not begin to be moralistic with information that is supposed to be freely available. Much like the software, OSM data is free to everyone. It's free to people who believe the same things I do, and free to people who believe things I don't. I would not feel comfortable if those I disagreed with began not letting me use their data, after all. OSM should not be punitive. The only requirements are those put forth in the license. 2) Most governments have far better data than what's in OSM. When you're a military, things like centimeter accuracy really matter. OSM isn't anywhere close to that accurate in most places. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
On 04/02/10 15:02, Serge Wroclawski wrote: 2) Most governments have far better data than what's in OSM. When you're a military, things like centimeter accuracy really matter. OSM isn't anywhere close to that accurate in most places. You'd hope... but various militaries track records of getting bombs to the intended targets says otherwise... -- Chris Jones, SUCS Admin http://sucs.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. cheers, Martin Oh my Lord, do I hope that the military services in my country are using data /slightly /more accurate reliable than OSM. A statement of what, precisely? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
You would be surprised. The US Military base vector data set VMAP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Map) is in places far better than OSM, and in others (think Haiti) OSM is much better. That said, the military intelligence agencies use this in *conjunction* with other sources of data: imagery, navteq, teleatlas etc etc. Jeff On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. cheers, Martin Oh my Lord, do I hope that the military services in my country are using data /slightly /more accurate reliable than OSM. A statement of what, precisely? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data by the military and/or intelligence services
Since all military organisations in the world can get their hands on OpenStreetMap data, it rules out the advantage and makes OpenStreetMap data as common to warfare as the soil they walk on... I am looking forward to the first edit-war that will turn out to influence the outcome of a real war. Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: AFAIK our current license offers our data for everyone who attributes correctly, but I'd like to raise the issue of malicious use of our data by governmental organisations. What do you thing about setting up a paragraph that prohibits the use of our data for military and intelligence services? Not that I'm hoping this would seriously prevent the use in case we have useful data to them, but still it would be a statement. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
