Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Okay, so, I think this thread is wrapping up. I'd like to make a summary of what I've learned: o A substantial number of OSM contributors believe that the Wikipedia lat/lon doesn't meet our standards for fair use of copyrighted works. o Some OSM contributors believe that data imports are inherently suspect, and that the only way to have reliable copyright provenance is to go there and take a GPS waypoint. o There are a variety of opinions about what copyright protects, not all of which are likely to be correct (and note that I include myself in this set). o Some largish number of Wikipedia POIs are already in OSM. o And that if anything, our geodata should be contributed back into Wikipedia rather than the direction I originally proposed. I apologize if I've offended anybody by arguing too hard (specifically RichardF, Rob Reid, and Iván). I *do* believe that some of the copyright assertions made by suppliers of aerial imagery go well beyond anything enforcible in a court of law, but absent a legal opinion in enough legal systems to make everyone comfortable, it's not reasonable to claim fair use for digitizing points. On May 7, 2009, at 3:25 AM, Lars Aronsson wrote: any legal process against OpenStreetMap would put the entire project at risk. No, not innocent infringement for reasons I've explained earlier. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
this will create many duplicates. You will need to do some checking before a poi is added. so many mass imports are done cleanup is a lot of work. checking should be done against points, ways, polygons. in osm tags are somtimes on building polugon or on a point. If we have both the map is too cluttered with trahs better import less but have better quality. On 5 May 2009, at 11:00 , Russ Nelson wrote: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? If I do this under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the import if somebody has a better idea later. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
available to OSM editors. One way to do that is to have a second API which consists of a cached copy of everything that map renderers might use, all merged into one read-only OSM-compatible api. So when somebody asks to edit an area, the editor also shows them the read- only elements, so they know not to enter anything already available to map users. could be very useful for other data too. one idea is to make osm itself or certain object a readonly layer and provide a editor for newbies where they can not destroy things easily. advanced mode will allow full edits. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 09:14:30PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Some notes: There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so I'd recommend using that. Shouldn't that be wikipedia:LA=NAME ? Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 11:59:51PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: El Martes, 5 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió: On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead. Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor [...] OMG, I'm practically DRIPPING with sweat off my brow just thinking about it. OK, but *you* tell that to the Google Lawyer Legion(tm)(beta). I don't think we have to worry about that. Google hasn't sued Wikipedia yet. And Wikipedia has been distributing all those points in bulk for years. Google itself has taken the Wikipedia points and put the into a Google Earth layer. So they can't argue that they didn't know. Now that Wikipedia is switching to CC-BY-SA I don't see any legal reason why we can't exchange data. Come on, people, don't be afraid all the time of something that theoretically maybe could eventually happen. We should not in anticipatory obedience cede the ground to everybody who claims any kind of right just because he thinks he should have it. If there is a reasonable claim, we have to act, of course, but not because of some theoretical possibility where the alleged copyright holder didn't even say anything. If you really want to be whiter than white I suggest you scroll around the existing OSM maps and start emailing all those people doing large scale imports and not having any documentation about where that data was coming from. Ask them for a full pedigree of this data back to the guy doing the surveying. Written, signed and in triplicate. This is no super-white project and it can't be. Its a community project and there is not much control about what people are doing. If and only if there is a problem, we have to handle it (and do so quickly), but not before. Wikipedia has been having those issues for years and has been handling them well. Sure there are letters from laywers etc. all the time and they look at those cases, document them, maybe delete data or lock access temporarily. That works. Judges see the effort they put in to protect copyright where there is some copyright to protect. I suggest we follow the same strategy instead of announcing that we are white where we aren't and coming up with insurmountable hurdles in other cases. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Hi, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Don't forget we have _expressly_ asked Google, in the form of Ed Parsons at SOTM, and he has _expressly_ said, sorry, no, we don't have those rights to give away. Of course Russ's argument is that you do not have to be given those rights, by Ed Parsons or his upstream providers, and so the fact that Google doesn't have those rights assigned by contract (or is unwilling to assign them to you by contract) is irrelevant. Wikipedia also recommends you do a web search for the city name together with latitude and longitude so, hey, why stop at Google? You can infringe on lots of other people's content, too! Which brings me to an interesting question. We currently have a long-running theft investigation in Germany where the suspects are twin brothers. The fact that it is impossible to accuse one or the other seems to be a major complication for lawyers (it seems you cannot have a legal case against one of you two). Now I wonder what happens if: * If I google for the coordinates of something * find the same coordinates on 5 web pages * use them * it later turns out all these 5 pages have copied from google and the coordinates are an easter egg Who, then, has a legal case against me? I haven't lifted anything off Google, so it cannot be them; and the other 5 will have a hard time to prove I took something from them? And is something still illegal if it is impossible to bring a case against it? But evidently I'm being an armchair lawyer: Welcome to the club. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 11:03:56PM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Actually, I think an OSMer said it best on Twitter. Openstreetmap is about gathering map data and sharing it. Some people seem desperate to import data from anywhere. GATHER IT YOURSELF. Well, actually its not. It might have been once, but now there is more data imported from somewhere (mostly TIGER) than there is collected data. I see the OSM projects goal as providing free geodata, doesn't matter where that came from. Lots of interesting data is not collectable. You dont' see border lines painted on the ground. While I love the aspect of collecting data myself and it is good for public relations to talk about moms pushing a pram and collecting geodata, thats only part of the project. Going out and collecting data was absolutely necessary to get this project jumpstarted. But now that OSM is accepted people are standing in line wanting to get their data imported. For better or worse, the project has changed. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Jochen Topf wrote: I don't think we have to worry about that. Google hasn't sued Wikipedia yet. And Wikipedia has been distributing all those points in bulk for years. It isn't about Google, it's about their data providers. Wikipedia is not a competitor to TeleAtlas. OpenStreetMap is. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikipedia-POI-import--tp23392791p23401272.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On 05/05/2009 20:36, Russ Nelson wrote: On May 5, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. Oh yes we do: Google Maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable for mass import into OSM. In fact, we don't know this. And since Google didn't create those lat/ lon pairs, the Wikipedia editor did, Google had no participation in the act of creation, and thus no copyright claim. You guys have some really weird ideas about copyright. You think it's silly, we think it is silly, but it's not us, it's people like Ordnance Survey who claim this is a derived work. But when you say what effort did the provider put in in making a particular lat/lon, if you're getting that from their maps, you aren't doing it in a vacuum, you are choosing the point based on its relationship to what else you an see on the map (otherwise you wouldn't be using the map in the first place). And they've put lots of investment into preparing the map (in OS case, _our_ money as taxpayers!) so they are understandably protective of it. Copyright isn't just about making verbatim copies. If you scan a photo, clearly you are infringing the photographer's copyright. But if you recreate a set, hire a similar model, and take your own picture then you are _still_ infringing copyright even though you took the picture. There's a grey area when similar is really similar enough and there's a grey area with maps too as no one has really tested in court the map companies assertion that reading a coordinate off a map really is a derived work. But the fact they make the assertion is largely why we exist in the first place. Importing potentially tainted data undermines the whole reason for our existence. Why bother importing - why not just use Google maps and save the effort? David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
2009/5/6 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 09:14:30PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Some notes: There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so I'd recommend using that. Shouldn't that be wikipedia:LA=NAME ? I think wikipedia=XX:NAME was choosen because the other way you can add many wikipedia:XX= tags and the parsers will not have a single tag name to look at, also this would duplicate wikipedia's own mechanism for linking to different language pages (and what if the translation in OSM is inconsistent wikipedia's own?). By linking to only one wikipedia article in any language, you actually link to a whole group of articles in all wikipedias that are connected with their interlinks. I don't remember whether this was discussed here or on IRC. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
andrzej zaborowski wrote: I think wikipedia=XX:NAME was choosen because the other way you can Chosen? Where? As far as I can see the only discussion is at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/External_links#Wikipedia and that says wikipedia:XX=article name in that language Besides, as present you can't have multiple values for a single tag in OSM, so wikipedia=XX:name wouldn't work. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
2009/5/6 Jonathan Bennett openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk: andrzej zaborowski wrote: I think wikipedia=XX:NAME was choosen because the other way you can Chosen? Where? On this list I think (or was that irc). Besides, as present you can't have multiple values for a single tag in OSM, so wikipedia=XX:name wouldn't work. You want only *one* value, you don't want to allow multiple values for the reasons I just gave. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 11:04:12AM +0100, Jonathan Bennett wrote: Besides, as present you can't have multiple values for a single tag in OSM, so wikipedia=XX:name wouldn't work. You don't need multiple values. Other languages are linked in Wikipedia, no need to duplicate this in OSM. If a place is described in 20 national Wikipedias do we really want 20 wikipedia=XX:name tags in OSM when only single wikipedia=XX:name links to all the pages? And more. You need no special handling for wikipedia=XX: links. E.g lets assume we have a client which opens a browser with Wikipedia page for a clicked POI using the wikipedia=* tag. And it has no language support (doesn't read wikipedia:XX=* tags, does not understand wikipedia=XX:*) and it gets: wikipedia=pl:Radiostacja_gliwicka It will open http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pl:Radiostacja_gliwicka Try that link yourself. You will get information about that place. Then click English on the sidebar. You will get English description about the same place. All with only one tag. With no special language support in the client. And it will work for other languages if localized Wikipedia pages are created. wikipedia=Gliwice_Radio_Tower Would also work, but would show the English page (Polish page is accessible with the Polski link on the left). But I guess, this POI is mostly interesting for Polish users, so polish page is a sane default. Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 02:00:42PM -0400, Russ Nelson wrote: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? This would add a lot of data with no review. A lot of duplicates will be created making confusion about which one is more correct. Now, if a place is missing in OSM anybody can look it up in Wikipedia anyway and put it in OSM. That would be well-thought-out decision and even if wrong, that is a single mistake. Much less probable someone alive would add a duplicate or outdated information. And what is a use of Wikipedia POIs in areas where we have no other map data in OSM and no mappers to verify the import? IMHO it is much better to have good data then to have a lot of data. I see no reason for an automated import of that data. Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 11:48:02AM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: 2009/5/6 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 09:14:30PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Some notes: There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so I'd recommend using that. Shouldn't that be wikipedia:LA=NAME ? I think wikipedia=XX:NAME was choosen because the other way you can add many wikipedia:XX= tags and the parsers will not have a single tag name to look at, also this would duplicate wikipedia's own mechanism for linking to different language pages (and what if the translation I am not sure I understand your arguments. Using wikipedia:language as key is used in OSM today in many cases. It is consistent with name:language and other uses of :language in keys, so it makes immediate sense to OSMers. Also Wikipedia uses something: as their way of doing namespacing. But generally not for languages, but for User pages, Special pages, Meta pages etc. Its in the OSM wiki that we use language names in this way, not in Wikipedia. in OSM is inconsistent wikipedia's own?). By linking to only one wikipedia article in any language, you actually link to a whole group of articles in all wikipedias that are connected with their interlinks. I don't remember whether this was discussed here or on IRC. This is true, but those interwiki links don't always exist and if they do, they might not refer to the right page. I'd rather have the option of adding explicit links to the pages I want to link to. Of course the interwiki links would work as fallback. So I think the language must be in the OSM key, not the value. Translating this into a link is straightforward then: wikipedia:en=London = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London With your way wikipedia=en:London could be misunderstood as meaning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:London which could exist. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Jacek Konieczny wrote: You don't need multiple values. Other languages are linked in Wikipedia, no need to duplicate this in OSM. If a place is described in 20 national Wikipedias do we really want 20 wikipedia=XX:name tags in OSM when only single wikipedia=XX:name links to all the pages? If you want to be able to render maps for a specific language or territory, yes. Having the WP shortcut version means that if I wanted to link to the English version of a WP page when we have only the Polish version, I have to retrieve the Polish page from WP and parse it to find the link to the English version. This means I can't do this rendering offline, and would slow the job down somewhat. And more. You need no special handling for wikipedia=XX: links. Except you do -- special handling from an OSM point of view. The convention of tag:lang = value is already well-established. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:London Both links go to the same Wikipedia page. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Jonathan Bennett openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk wrote: Jacek Konieczny wrote: You don't need multiple values. Other languages are linked in Wikipedia, no need to duplicate this in OSM. If a place is described in 20 national Wikipedias do we really want 20 wikipedia=XX:name tags in OSM when only single wikipedia=XX:name links to all the pages? If you want to be able to render maps for a specific language or territory, yes. Having the WP shortcut version means that if I wanted to link to the English version of a WP page when we have only the Polish version, I have to retrieve the Polish page from WP and parse it to find the link to the English version. This means I can't do this rendering offline, and would slow the job down somewhat. You can get a dump of Wikipedia and process that offline (just as you got a dump of OSM). There's also a current effort to get interwiki links into MediaWiki's database[1]. This allows for database dumps of the interwiki table[2] meaning you wouldn't have to maintain your own parser for grabbing these links. The current implementation of interwiki links in MediaWIki is the biggest cause of spam in article histories, it's not uncommon to have a small article with one real edit and 20-30 automated edits that amend the interwiki links. If we were going to list all of Wikipedia's interwiki links for applicable POIs in OSM that would eventually mean that we'd need our own interwiki bots connected to Wikipedia. That would suck. 1. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WMDE_contract_offers/Store_interwiki-links_in_the_database 2. http://download.wikimedia.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 6, 2009, at 1:14 AM, Rob Reid wrote: Excellent, so there is nothing to stop me tracing my entire town off Google Imagery into osm, since all I would be doing is choosing points off their aerial photograghs and they are not contributing in any way to me doing that? WHERE do you guys get these weird ideas about copyright from? Do you think the garbage man has copyright interest in your OSM work because he's contributing to your efforts by taking out your trash? What about the company that built your computer? SURELY you could not edit OSM without their contribution. What about the ISP that carried the imagery to your computer? You can bet that THEY think they share copyright in your online works. How could you have produced them without your ISP, so your ISP owns everything you edit online. Copyright protects creativity (or sweat of the brow). It doesn't protect contributions to creativity. Think of the lawsuits if it did! Why, I'm contributing to your OSM efforts by clarifying copyright for you, so I would have a copyright interest in your OSM edits if your theory was correct. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 6, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that particular point? Google's imagery suppliers collected and rectified the imagery. For over a hundred years, English courts have held that a significant expenditure of labour is sufficient - that's, er, Wikipedia saying that. If they'd rectified them differently, your 14 digits would be different. True, but now you're putting yourself into the ridiculous situation of claiming that every possible set of coordinates infringes Google's copyright. Openstreetmap is about gathering map data and sharing it. Some people seem desperate to import data from anywhere. GATHER IT YOURSELF. The problem is that people say Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done. Why can't we just import it? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: So, if I understand this discussion, I cannot create a POI based on Google aerial photography directly in OSM. But if I create my POI first in Wikipedia, then import it in OSM, it is permitted. Is that correct ? Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
At freemap.sk we have choosen not to import wikipedia POIs into OSM database to prevent long discussions about unclear copyright and other rights. We have Wikipedia as transparent click-able overlay with popups with short description of WIKIPEDIA POI and also with direct link to Wikipedia article. http://dev.freemap.sk/?zoom=10lat=48.47825459688335lon=18.094623150449117; maplayers=Wikipediamaplayer=Standard Dodi -Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Russ Nelson Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 4:54 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import? On May 6, 2009, at 1:14 AM, Rob Reid wrote: Excellent, so there is nothing to stop me tracing my entire town off Google Imagery into osm, since all I would be doing is choosing points off their aerial photograghs and they are not contributing in any way to me doing that? WHERE do you guys get these weird ideas about copyright from? Do you think the garbage man has copyright interest in your OSM work because he's contributing to your efforts by taking out your trash? What about the company that built your computer? SURELY you could not edit OSM without their contribution. What about the ISP that carried the imagery to your computer? You can bet that THEY think they share copyright in your online works. How could you have produced them without your ISP, so your ISP owns everything you edit online. Copyright protects creativity (or sweat of the brow). It doesn't protect contributions to creativity. Think of the lawsuits if it did! Why, I'm contributing to your OSM efforts by clarifying copyright for you, so I would have a copyright interest in your OSM edits if your theory was correct. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: WHERE do you guys get these weird ideas about copyright from? Tell you what. You work for CloudMade, right? I suggest you ask your bosses. Show them what you're proposing to import. Show them the Wikipedia page that explains how it's been gathered. Ask them if they'd be happy with that in their dataset and are prepared to run the legal risk. I'd be interested to know their response. (This would, of course, be better on legal-talk.) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikipedia-POI-import--tp23392791p23408966.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
El Miércoles, 6 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió: The problem is that people say Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done. Why can't we just import it? Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done by TeleAtlas. Why can't we just import it? -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es Aviso: Este e-mail es confidencial y no debería ser usado por nadie que no sea el destinatario original. No se permite la reproducción mediante fotocopia, walkie-talkie, emisora de radioaficionado, satélite, televisión por cable, proyector, señales de humo, código morse, braille, lenguaje de signos, taquigrafía o cualquier otro medio. Bajo ningún concepto debe traducirse al francés este e-mail. Este e-mail no puede ser ridiculizado, parodiado, juzgado en una competición, o leído en voz alta con un acento gracioso llevando un bigote falso y/o cualquier tipo de sombrero, incluyendo pero no limitándose a pañuelos. No inciten ni provoquen a este e-mail. Si está medicándose, puede experimentar nauseas, desorientación, histeria, vómitos, pérdida temporal de la memoria a corto plazo y malestar general al leer este e-mail. Consulte a su médico o farmacéutico antes de leer este e-mail. Todas las modelos descritas en este e-mail son mayores de 18 años. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error es probablemente porque estaba borracho cuando escribí la dirección del destinatario. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
From: Pieren pier...@gmail.com To: Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com Cc: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 16:17:51 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import? On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: So, if I understand this discussion, I cannot create a POI based on Google aerial photography directly in OSM. But if I create my POI first in Wikipedia, then import it in OSM, it is permitted. Is that correct ? I think there are two issues here, which are only partially related. Firstly, there is what the relevant laws actually say on the matter. So for example, the laws say that if Wikipedia licenses its data as CC-BY-SA we can import it without worrying about it. If they didn't have the right to license the data as such, that is primarily their problem and we only have to respond if a court decides that this was improper and we should therefore remove the data. I am fairly happy with doing a mass import of Wikipedia data on this basis. Secondly, there is the risk that a company, irrespective of what the laws say, will start throwing lawsuits around. I am not convinced that Google would do this in this case, but those from whom they license the data might do. It doesn't matter whether they have a case or not, their claims could be completely and utterly bogus. But once they've thrown their lawsuit, you are then tied up in an expensive legal process from which it can be very hard to escape unless your lawyers are bigger than theirs (or more accurately, the pockets that pay your lawyers are deeper than the pockets that pay theirs). Think of this as the Microsoft approach to the law. It is this risk that we are more concerned about here, and this is what would make me wary of doing a mass import. If our product is a threat to their profitability then they will throw morals out of the Windows and do whatever they can to halt their competitors, claiming that they have a moral duty to look after the interests of their shareholders. Much as I hate the fact that this is how it works, it's a sad fact of this world that there are many large organisations who don't care about right or wrong who also happen to have pretty deep pockets. Cheers, Donald ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: On May 6, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that particular point? Google's imagery suppliers collected and rectified the imagery. "For over a hundred years, English courts have held that a significant expenditure of labour is sufficient" - that's, er, Wikipedia saying that. If they'd rectified them differently, your 14 digits would be different. True, but now you're putting yourself into the ridiculous situation of claiming that every possible set of coordinates infringes Google's copyright. "Openstreetmap is about gathering map data and sharing it. Some people seem desperate to import data from anywhere. GATHER IT YOURSELF." The problem is that people say "Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done. Why can't we just import it?" I wrote the tweet Richard posted. The problem is that much of the data that is imported is poor quality. If we import data from other sources, the best we can ever be is a me-too map no better than the data we import. I don't want to create an also-ran map that happens to be free to use, I want to create a best-ever map and by-the -way it's free, and I can't do that by just copying someone else's stuff. At the weekend I heard from someone visiting Yorkshire who now lives in Arizona. He thinks OSM is poor because the TIGER import is incomplete and off by about 100 yards. I tried to persuade him to help, and he can best do that by gathering data. There are good imports of course and some imported data can be better than nothing, but just importing every thing and anything is not going to build that earth-moving map. So lets get back to creating the very best map of the world, part of which involves GATHERING DATA. Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 6, 2009, at 11:06 AM, Russ Nelson wrote: On May 6, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Openstreetmap is about gathering map data and sharing it. Some people seem desperate to import data from anywhere. GATHER IT YOURSELF. The problem is that people say Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done. Why can't we just import it? There's also the problem that there is some data which should be on the map which cannot be gathered in the field. For example, the NYS DEC Lands dataset is not discernable in the field. You can look at the signs, but the signs are not as accurate as the maintained shapefile. So should this data NOT be in the map? Someone certainly count gather it, but it is KNOWN to be less accurate than the shapefile we can simply import. THAT is why we import rather than gathering data. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 6, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: El Miércoles, 6 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió: The problem is that people say Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done. Why can't we just import it? Why should I have to repeat this work? It's already been done by TeleAtlas. Why can't we just import it? WHERE do you guys get your ideas about copyright from?? Sheesh, you're being a poopy-head, Iván. TeleAtlas data is copyrighted, and when licensed is licensed under an incompatible copyright. Other data is either in the public domain or not copyrightable or licensed under a compatible copyright. I'm like, well duh! -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 09:41:27PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: I very much agree about OpenAerialMap -- if we can't trust the OpenAerialMap contributors about the licensing why should any person in OSM trust any other OSM contributor rather than start redrawing everything they can from scratch and only trust their own contributions. Hmm, trust. So, it has a messaging system, a blogging system, and a little bit of a “friends” network… OSM could build it’s own web of trust system too! *runs away giggling* Actually, seriously, I would sign my changesets using OpenPGP if I could easily do so. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: TeleAtlas data is copyrighted, and when licensed is licensed under an incompatible copyright. The data you're proposing taking from Wikipedia is probably derived, via Google, from that same TeleAtlas (or Navteq) data. It doesn't seem plausible that deriving information from TA data is fine, provided it's done at arm's length via a Wikipedian who didn't read the Google Maps terms of use. These explicitly say that you must not make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof, or give access to mass downloads or bulk feeds of any Content, including but not limited to numerical latitude or longitude coordinates. -dair ___ d...@refnum.com http://www.refnum.com/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: For over a hundred years, English courts have held that a significant expenditure of labour is sufficient - that's, er, Wikipedia saying that. Has there been any sweat of the brow cases after the database directive has been implemented? In the Scandinavian countries a, somewhat, similar right exists (anyone who gathers a large number of of facts). I have seen legal arguments that this is invalid after the database directive, but has not been able to find any court cases that are relevant. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 6, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Dair Grant wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: TeleAtlas data is copyrighted, and when licensed is licensed under an incompatible copyright. The data you're proposing taking from Wikipedia is probably derived, via Google, from that same TeleAtlas (or Navteq) data. Or OpenStreetMap data. How would you know? Perhaps TA and N have easter eggs. Just to make things interesting, there are many potential sources of the Wikipedia coordinates. It's quite possible that you would have both TA and N claiming that they own all of Wikipedia coordinates? But the use of easter eggs is to prove that a majority of the data is infringing because it can be proven that a minority of the data is without doubt infringing. What happens if two parties attempt to claim that they own all the data? But y'all are STILL focussing on the WRONG PROBLEM. Okay, here's what we have for objections: o Wikipedia editors are instructed to use Google Maps thus their geodata is potentially infringing. o We should be gathering our data from the field (so that means that the data we currently have is reliable enough, modulo any currently-known copyright problems). o But some of the Wikipedia POIs are already in OSM. Can you see how this points a way forward? We look at the Wikipedia lat/lons and POI names. We look in OSM for nearby POIs. We *replace* the Wikipedia lat/lons with OSM lat/lons. In fact, we turn this into a continuous process. When somebody enters a POI, we look in Wikipedia for that entity, and we link to the Wikipedia page and replace its lat/lon with our own. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: On May 6, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Dair Grant wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: TeleAtlas data is copyrighted, and when licensed is licensed under an incompatible copyright. The data you're proposing taking from Wikipedia is probably derived, via Google, from that same TeleAtlas (or Navteq) data. Or OpenStreetMap data. How would you know? Perhaps TA and N have easter eggs. I actually did a paper on this last term (map easter eggs): Both TA and N are known to contain easter eggs (though I don't recall which of the two denies this publicly). But y'all are STILL focussing on the WRONG PROBLEM. Okay, here's what we have for objections: o Wikipedia editors are instructed to use Google Maps thus their geodata is potentially infringing. o We should be gathering our data from the field (so that means that the data we currently have is reliable enough, modulo any currently-known copyright problems). o But some of the Wikipedia POIs are already in OSM. Can you see how this points a way forward? We look at the Wikipedia lat/lons and POI names. We look in OSM for nearby POIs. We *replace* the Wikipedia lat/lons with OSM lat/lons. In fact, we turn this into a continuous process. When somebody enters a POI, we look in Wikipedia for that entity, and we link to the Wikipedia page and replace its lat/lon with our own. I guess I missed something...how is this not the obvious answer? I took it for granted that this was happening already. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
N are known to contain easter eggs (though I don't recall which of the two denies this publicly). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Hi, Russ Nelson wrote: When somebody enters a POI, we look in Wikipedia for that entity, and we link to the Wikipedia page and replace its lat/lon with our own. * Possible if both Wikipedia and OSM are CC-BY-SA. * Impossible if you assume that the lat/lon is subejct to copyright and Wikipedia is GFDL (unsure what their current status is). * Very interesting if OSM should go ODbL. ODbL would allow the re-use of insubstantial amounts of data (one lat/lon pair = cleary insubstantial) but request that the repeated extraction of insubstantial amounts of data into another database would at some point constitute a derivative process and force you to put the other database under ODbL, something that would not be possible with Wikipedia. The latest drafts have some wording about compatible licenses but it is unclear to me if that could be used to declare CC-BY-SA compatible. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
El día Wednesday 06 May 2009 21:32:49, Gustav Foseid dijo: Has there been any sweat of the brow cases after the database directive has been implemented? I've got JUR 2007, 166551 (Sentencia de la Audiencia Provincial de Madrid, sección 13ª, del 16 de octubre de 2006 or Madrid provincial courthouse (13rd section) ruling, 16th oct 2006), regarding Ibercarta. (FYI, the EU DB directive was implemented into spanish law circa 1998) The ruling is brief on details regarding the DB directive per se, but acknowledges that the very delicate labour of data interpretation and recopilation is what gives the work originality, and that originality grants the copyright protection. Geez, I shouldn't be posting this on t...@. Is somebody ever going to follow-up this to legal@ ?? -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es Un ordenador no es una televisión ni un microondas: es una herramienta compleja. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. While a single point sourced from Google Earth would probably be ok, an entire collection possibly sourced from there would be reconstituting their database right? Cheers, Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources. Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :) 2009/5/5 Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? If I do this under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the import if somebody has a better idea later. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. We don't care either. That's wikipedia's problem. They're licensing the data under CC-By-SA now, so if we were found to be infringing, it would be innocent infringing. Rest easy. We incur no extra legal risk when importing public-domain or licensed (under a compatible license) data. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Hi, Thomas Wood wrote: Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources. While I'm not the greatest fan of Wikipedia myself, I think that we should stop perpetuating such unjustified and unfair criticism. Like us, Wikipedia relies on a large user base, and they do a lot to educate these users about copyright. Their sources are no less verified than ours. They take a different stance on deriving data from Google et al., but this is just a different interpretation of existing law than the one we apply. Wikipedia is not encouraging copyright violation, they have just mapped out a different course through what is a grey and murky area. Our approach is more cautious than Wikipedia's, but that does not make us better or cleaner, and it would do us all good to respect Wikipedians' decisions in their realm instead of telling everyone how they are basically pirates. Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :) That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that Wikimapia was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot to say that this is just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully started removing Wikimapia references from Wikipedia (they're unacceptable, you know), and ended up on the receiving end of a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger. Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to bury that childish but we are cleaner than you rivalry. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Thomas Wood wrote: Unverified and somewhat copyrightable sources. While I'm not the greatest fan of Wikipedia myself, I think that we should stop perpetuating such unjustified and unfair criticism. Like us, Wikipedia relies on a large user base, and they do a lot to educate these users about copyright. Their sources are no less verified than ours. They take a different stance on deriving data from Google et al., but this is just a different interpretation of existing law than the one we apply. Wikipedia is not encouraging copyright violation, they have just mapped out a different course through what is a grey and murky area. Our approach is more cautious than Wikipedia's, but that does not make us better or cleaner, and it would do us all good to respect Wikipedians' decisions in their realm instead of telling everyone how they are basically pirates. Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :) That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that Wikimapia was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot to say that this is just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully started removing Wikimapia references from Wikipedia (they're unacceptable, you know), and ended up on the receiving end of a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger. Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to bury that childish but we are cleaner than you rivalry. I wouldn't say what they've done is unacceptable and works for them. I just think there's a difference between 1,000,000 wikipedia editors each deriving one point from a copyrighted source and us whole sale importing those 1,000,000 points. Cheers, Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On May 5, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. We don't care either. That's wikipedia's problem. They're licensing the data under CC-By-SA now, so if we were found to be infringing, it would be innocent infringing. Rest easy. We incur no extra legal risk when importing public-domain or licensed (under a compatible license) data. Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith, knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided? Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. Oh yes we do: Google Maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable for mass import into OSM. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikipedia-POI-import--tp23392791p23394016.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
2009/5/5 Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? If I do this under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the import if somebody has a better idea later. Some notes: There's already the wikipedia=NAME tag (wikipedia=LA:NAME for non-english wikipedias, where LA=en,de...) in use in some places, so I'd recommend using that. In my experience most of the POIs in wikipedia already exist in some way in OSM (I know in my city all exist) so it may be better to try and do some matching with existing objects before adding a new POI. In Poland I have added wikipedia= tags to all existing places (cities, town, villages, suburb) without adding anything from wikipedia that wasn't in OSM already, I'm pretty sure that didn't infringe on anyone's rights. The script managed to match 24000 wikipedia entries to OSM nodes. Many of the articles had no coordinates but the script did the matching also based on belonging to administrative divisions, post-code or the locality code in national registry of localities. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
IANAL but can't you stop basing your defense on the good faith argument as soon as you discuss the content beforehand like we're doing? Le 5 mai 09 à 20:58, Adam Schreiber a écrit : Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith, knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Frederik Ramm wrote: Thomas Wood wrote: Where's ShakespeareFan00 when you need him? :) That poor guy has been told by some self-important OSMers that Wikimapia was an unacceptable source, and they somehow forgot to say that this is just the OSM interpretation. SFan00 dutifully started removing Wikimapia references from Wikipedia (they're unacceptable, you know), and ended up on the receiving end of a lot of justified Wikipedians' anger. You are very charitable, Frederik (well, maybe not to those of us who you've just called self-important :) ) - probably too charitable. Yes, he did ask whether he should import them to OSM, and we replied no. To that question, nothing else. He also asked so I should remove them from Wikipedia? (or something along those lines) and was told that #osm has no power over, or indeed interest in, Wikipedia. Why he, or you, or anyone should take comments in #osm to mean oh, you should do this in Wikipedia without even questioning it or - heavens above - asking some Wikipedia people, I don't know. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikipedia-POI-import--tp23392791p23394088.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson schrieb: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? * There is already a free, constantly-updated, machine-readable and, most importantly, authoritative source of Wikipedia entry location information available: Wikipedia itself. * Tons of tags for more widely known features (there isn't just en.wikipedia...). Need frequent updates. * Wikipedia does contain events, historical features etc. that aren't usually entered into OSM. * Sources for Wikipedia's coordinates unknown, but it's probable that most of them are from Google. * If subject to copyright: Incompatible licenses. - GFDL vs. CC-BY-SA 2.0 (now) - CC-BY-SA 3.0 vs. CC-BY-SA 2.0 (hopefully soon) - CC-BY-SA 3.0 vs. ODBL (maybe later) Just some brainstorming. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote: Is it innocent infringement if we import licensed data in good faith, knowing that there may be problems with what they've provided? Do we in fact know this? If so, we should report it to Wikipedia so that they can fix it. If you have no evidence that your speculation is true, then yes, it's innocent infringement. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. Oh yes we do: Google Maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable for mass import into OSM. In fact, we don't know this. And since Google didn't create those lat/ lon pairs, the Wikipedia editor did, Google had no participation in the act of creation, and thus no copyright claim. You guys have some really weird ideas about copyright. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
2009/5/5 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Please: Wikimapia, or even Wikipedia or OpenAerialMap may be on the other side of *our* definition of acceptable, but that does not make them any less free, or make them second-rate projects. It is time to bury that childish but we are cleaner than you rivalry. I very much agree about OpenAerialMap -- if we can't trust the OpenAerialMap contributors about the licensing why should any person in OSM trust any other OSM contributor rather than start redrawing everything they can from scratch and only trust their own contributions. On a different note, I was told on talk-es that tagzania.com (a wikimapia lookalike) got a confirmation from Google that their use of Google imagery for drawing stuff over it and tagging stuff, is within the limits of the TOS. (don't quote me on this) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote: Russ Nelson schrieb: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? * There is already a free, constantly-updated, machine-readable and, most importantly, authoritative source of Wikipedia entry location information available: Wikipedia itself. Argh. Okay, so here's the problem as I see it: 1) We encourage people to add features to OSM. Specifically I'm thinking of public art like the Charging Bull aka the Wall Street Bull. It's in OSM as tourism=artwork. 2) But it's also in Wikipedia. 3) We could not import it. But then, by dribs and by drabs, over time, people will re-create all of Wikipedia's (and in fact EVERY other bit of geodata) entries, because when they look at the editor, it's not there. There's two ways we could go: either import EVERYTHING into OSM. Or else make sure that everything which map renderers could use is also available to OSM editors. One way to do that is to have a second API which consists of a cached copy of everything that map renderers might use, all merged into one read-only OSM-compatible api. So when somebody asks to edit an area, the editor also shows them the read- only elements, so they know not to enter anything already available to map users. Especially Wikipedia, which is already editable in a different format. Maybe what we really need is a gateway to editing Wikipedia using OSM as a front-end? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead. Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor, who located the point, identified the point, clicked on the point, copied the lat and lon, edited the wikipedia page, pasted the lat and lon into the page in the correct format, OMG, I'm practically DRIPPING with sweat off my brow just thinking about it. And how much sweating has Google contributed? As much as they do when NOT serving up an image that somebody is clicking on. In other words: not at all. See what I mean about weird ideas? One is that we are whiter than white - that's what we're here for. We don't push the legal envelope. Bullshit. Sorry, but it's bullshit. Okay, so I have a railroad map of New York State which I could drop in toto into OSM. I *claim* to have derived it from completely public-domain sources (USGS topo and DOQ). But you don't know that. You can't know that. All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not infringing some railroad mapping company's data. The only way you're ever going to find out is if you get sued. So much for not pushing the legal envelope. And then to be publicly saying Our license is shite; it's such shite that we're considering switching to a license whose ink is metaphorically still wet on the page. That's not pushing the legal envelope?? And to be tracing off of Yahoo's maps based on something less than a signed contract on paper? C'mon, Richard, you need a bigger shovel. Bulk imports should always be done by a special user so that there is no problem removing the data should someone claim infringement. But it's simply foolish to fail to import something simply because someone who isn't the copyright holder alleges that the data might be infringing. You don't know; they don't know; the only one who really knows is the party doing the infringing and the infringed party, and the first one isn't talking. No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about copyright. There are FAR more important issues in doing an import from Wikipedia. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor[...]? Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that A did some work, but B did more, so B owns the copyright. _Both_ A and B own some copyright. Bullshit. Sorry, but it's bullshit. Okay, so I have a railroad map of New York State which I could drop in toto into OSM. I *claim* to have derived it from completely public-domain sources (USGS topo and DOQ). But you don't know that. You can't know that. All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not infringing some railroad mapping company's data. No. If you tell me (or, by extension, the OSM community) publicly, or I notice, I _will_ look. I will not close my eyes. If it looks suspicious I'll raise it on the lists. You don't need Easter eggs to spot infringement. For example, there is someone on this list who figured out, correctly, the copyrighted source from which People's Map got their road numbers. I'll let her speak for herself if she wants to. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Wikipedia-POI-import--tp23392791p23396540.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
El Martes, 5 de Mayo de 2009, Russ Nelson escribió: On May 5, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: We have the sweat-of-the-brow doctrine instead. Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor [...] OMG, I'm practically DRIPPING with sweat off my brow just thinking about it. OK, but *you* tell that to the Google Lawyer Legion(tm)(beta). In other words: One thing is what the law was designed to do when it was introduced, another different thing is how the big conglomerates apply it. We don't push the legal envelope. Bullshit. Sorry, but it's bullshit. Okay, so I have a railroad map [...] All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not infringing some railroad mapping company's data. Wait a sec - are you actually saying that OSM (and the OSMF) should encourage covert copyright infringement? (Or database directive infringement, for that matter). Geez, man! And then to be publicly saying Our license is shite; it's such shite that we're considering switching to a license whose ink is metaphorically still wet on the page. That's not pushing the legal envelope?? Well, in a sense. OSM is pioneering the ODbL here (and I'm actually proud of that). In case you haven't noticed, all licenses for online mapping and data are still wet on the page. Over here, national and regional mapping agencies are striving to understand how this DB directive affects them and the publication of their geodata. OSM pushing the legal envelope? Nope. Mapping technology advances in the last 15 years clashing against copyright law? Hell yeah. No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about copyright. There are FAR more important issues in doing an import from Wikipedia. So go ahead, but don't count on me paying your lawyer bill. Cheers, -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es Win95 es el hijo deforme de un Billy Puertas ... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Richard Fairhurst wrote: Adam Schreiber wrote: We don't know where the wikipedia users sourced their cooridinates from. Oh yes we do: Google Maps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Obtaining_geographic_coordinates#Google_tools There is absolutely no way that Wikipedia-derived co-ordinates are suitable for mass import into OSM. I know a lot of the wikipedia landmarks for Salem are good because I created them... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote: Any reason not to go through Wikipedia and import everything with a coordinate as a POI, with a url=http://wikipedia.org/NAME link, and name=NAME where NAME is the name of the Wikipedia entry? If I do this under a special username, then there is no problem backing out the import if somebody has a better idea later. Plenty of reason. To give just one example I came up with after no thought at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Gallery is already in OSM as http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/30361827 so you'd be duplicating a POI -- OSM's location for this point is also more accurate than WP's (although I may now edit the WP coords). I could probably come up with a few dozen more examples just in my local mapping area, where the same problems would occur. Scale this up to a worldwide level and you'd just be creating thousands and thousands of duplicate points. Jono ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor[...]? Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that A did some work, but B did more, so B owns the copyright. _Both_ A and B own some copyright. What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that particular point? Given the coordinates of a particular point, how would Google take those numbers into court and say Your honour, those numbers belong to us. Particularly when Google had no idea that those numbers existed before they were published in Wikipedia. Can you conceive of ANY legal system which would allow someone to claim copyright protection on 14 digits that they weren't aware of until they were published by someone else? With a straight face? No pulling my leg now, this is a serious conversation. To think that Google has ANY copyright ownership of points chosen off their aerial photographs simply boggles the mind. That would be like me taking a photograph of something (which is clearly a copyrightable work), you choosing to say something about a particular point 5.3785 inches from the bottom and 7.3992 inches from the left, and me claiming that 5.3785, 7.3992 infringes my copyright. I'm like WTF??? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
On May 5, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: We don't push the legal envelope. Bullshit. Sorry, but it's bullshit. Okay, so I have a railroad map [...] All you can do is close your eyes, let me import it, and hope that I'm not infringing some railroad mapping company's data. Wait a sec - are you actually saying that OSM (and the OSMF) should encourage covert copyright infringement? (Or database directive infringement, for that matter). Geez, man! No, I'm saying that you can't know that you're doing it. And that, my friends, is *exactly* why the concept of innocent infringement exists. In order to gain its protection, you must be able to show why you thought you had permission (and we *think* that everything uploaded to OSM is either copyright-free or licensed under the CC-By- SA because of the contributor agreement to which people subscribe when they join). You must cease distribution when informed of the infringement. And you must cooperate with the judge in the case to make amends. In case you haven't noticed, all licenses for online mapping and data are still wet on the page. Sure. That means that we're pushing the envelope. We may not WANT to do so, but that's what we're doing, and we shouldn't fool ourselves. No, I didn't think anybody was insane enough to worry about copyright. There are FAR more important issues in doing an import from Wikipedia. So go ahead, but don't count on me paying your lawyer bill. I believe that the legal risks are somewhere between zero and nil. Which is why I'm trying to tell people that the legal issue is a chimera, and that the technical issues are FAR FAR more important. But nobody wants to talk about the hard stuff. Everybody just wants to be an armchair lawyer rather than exercize their brain. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia POI import?
Russ Nelson wrote the following on 06/05/2009 14:29: On May 5, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: Fine enough, and who sweated hardest to click in a particular point on a Google Map? Google? Or the Wikipedia editor[...]? Sweat-of-the-brow doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that A did some work, but B did more, so B owns the copyright. _Both_ A and B own some copyright. What work or creativity did Google do towards the existence of that particular point? Given the coordinates of a particular point, how would Google take those numbers into court and say Your honour, those numbers belong to us. Particularly when Google had no idea that those numbers existed before they were published in Wikipedia. Can you conceive of ANY legal system which would allow someone to claim copyright protection on 14 digits that they weren't aware of until they were published by someone else? With a straight face? No pulling my leg now, this is a serious conversation. To think that Google has ANY copyright ownership of points chosen off their aerial photographs simply boggles the mind. Excellent, so there is nothing to stop me tracing my entire town off Google Imagery into osm, since all I would be doing is choosing points off their aerial photograghs and they are not contributing in any way to me doing that? Or would I be on safer ground if I created a page on Wikipedia that listed all the streets on my local town with start and end points chosen off Google and all the POI with locations chosen off Google and then wait for 'someone' to import them into osm? rcr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
