Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: ... They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design. Of those that would like to help us scale the servers, they don't want to be seen to try to 'take over' by hosting OSM in their data centers ... Sorry, if I am disturbing, when the big boys are talking. ;-) I do not have clue concerning the technical stuff. Could we describe this with those words?: Free Data - proprietary distributed and collected? ... but can't really justify throwing money at us when they have perfectly good resources we could use. ... Basically there's a big decision tree that I have half worked out that follows from 'big company wants to *significantly* help OSM but how?'. I've been through this decision tree about 6 or 7 times now I think. It would be interesting to graph it, and each end point node in that tree is 'we can't do that because of X'. By '*significant*', I mean throwing millions of dollars at the problem (OSM) because they're already throwing tens to hundreds of millions at NT/TA and so OSM a viable side bet. Of course you could say 'start small' but the problem there is that it's usually much easier to release large resources than small in large organisations. ... But would it not be the way out of the dilemma, if the OSM-Foundation could do something comparable, like the Wikimedia Verein Deutschland (Wikimedia Foundation Germany)? They use the sponsors money to pay software engineers. These engeneers do not take part to things, that directly affect the content of Wikipedia or the other projects. For instance these engineers develope the Mediawiki Software and help the voluntaries of the community to improve the data distribution. The last word what is done or not is made by the community, not by the Wikimedia Verein and not by the paid developers. I think, it would be comforting for the community to know, that they do not have only the data but also the own power to distribute and collect them. Further many of them would not like to give their virtual OSM identity to someone else, who possibly is able to join this identity with another ones. Thats one of the reasons, why they support free projects and not proprietary ones. Paid developers could help OSM with all that missions and thus to grow faster. And thus earning money from whoever in order to pay developers would probably be accepted by the community. Possibly Wikimedia/Wikipedia could be a technical partner, that is accepted by the OSM community. They run a worldwide service of their own very well. Probably they are the free project with the most experierce concerning that stuff. Thus: Could someone explain me, how much more traffic OSM has to handle compared to Wikipedia? Would their way work for OSM as well? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
That's great! It's a useful way to present OSM and it demonstrates growing popularity I fully agree. I think we should ask them if we even can name them on the OpenStreetMap web site as reference case (and we might kindly ask them at the same time to put the attribution somemore in the foreground as we are proud that they use OSM). Regards, Oliver -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/WolframAlpha-uses-OpenStreetMap-data-tp5187089p5189940.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Tim McNamara wrote: [stuff about scope of share-alike] [stuff about whether a share-alike or an attribution-only licence is better] Hello Tim; you are new here, I think (and welcome!). There is a bit of prior discussion on this. About five years' worth, in fact. :) If you'd like to look through the legal-talk mailing list archives, we can probably avoid rehashing a discussion that has been had many times before. legal-talk is a good place to discuss it further if you'd like to. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/WolframAlpha-uses-OpenStreetMap-data-tp5187089p5190031.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Richard Weait wrote: Sent: 16 June 2010 8:42 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Nice catch. That's super. Is the license attribution they are using OK? It looks good to me. Different from what we recommend for what is predominantly a map, but their page is not predominantly a map. ccbysa allows appropriate attribution with similar prominence: Such credit may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Derivative Work or Collective Work, at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit. I'm thrilled to see OSM on Wolfram Alpha. +1, though it would even cooler if they had a link to us from the Related Links box. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2943 - Release Date: 06/17/10 07:35:00 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Frederik Ramm wrote: Sent: 16 June 2010 6:22 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data Hi, Frank Sautter wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Interesting, they seem to have their own rendering as well. A little yesterday perhaps with no slippy map and zooming via a dropdown but surely a good start. Should like to find out how current they are (they say based on current OpenStreetMap data). Not that current. Areas I know mapped in early January are on but those in March are not. Cheers Andy Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2943 - Release Date: 06/17/10 07:35:00 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
16.06.2010 18:38, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: it might be OK or not, but generally we explain in our wiki how we like to be attributed in the web-context, that is supplying cc-by-sa linked to creative commons and Openstreetmap, not too difficult, is it? Apparently it is counter-intuitive at least for users not reading our wiki, otherwise we wouldn't see those incomplete attributions this often. I even doubt that insisting on that license URI is a good idea at all. The URI isn't really useful in practice as long as people know where the data comes from and are can easily go to osm.org (where we have the possibility to advertise our license conditions in any way we like). It is cumbersome in many environments and enforcing it would require a lot of unpleasant communication: Informing others that they don't conform to a license isn't a great start for relations. Initiatives such as the Lacking proper attribution wiki tables have caused conflict even within the OSM community. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
So I've had phone and email chats with stephen wolfram about everything they're doing because incidentally I had an internship there a decade ago. They love OSM. What's good is we're at a nice tipping point with many who want to use OSM and help it succeed but are having trouble figuring out how to. This is the same conversation I have with lots of companies right now, so abstracting away exactly what they and other companies keep telling me, and paraphrasing the message from a few million and billion dollar companies, here's what I hear: They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design. Of those that would like to help us scale the servers, they don't want to be seen to try to 'take over' by hosting OSM in their data centers but can't really justify throwing money at us when they have perfectly good resources we could use. Most would like to have some feedback or edit button from their site that goes to OSM but know we'd fall over from the load, so they'd basically be down to forking the OSM dataset and hosting it themselves which nobody wants to do because then you're a bad guy. I've had a couple of offers of design and coding help but most are scared by the responses they've seen to other people who've tried to help with obvious things here, and don't want community wrath to hurt their brand image. Basically there's a big decision tree that I have half worked out that follows from 'big company wants to *significantly* help OSM but how?'. I've been through this decision tree about 6 or 7 times now I think. It would be interesting to graph it, and each end point node in that tree is 'we can't do that because of X'. By '*significant*', I mean throwing millions of dollars at the problem (OSM) because they're already throwing tens to hundreds of millions at NT/TA and so OSM a viable side bet. Of course you could say 'start small' but the problem there is that it's usually much easier to release large resources than small in large organisations. There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear a lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community. One of the many reasons to try something quietly is that you might not want to piss off your multi-billion dollar data supplier, NT or TA and OSM isn't at the point yet where it's a drop in replacement. So you have a sort of prisoners dilemma where we're the company is acting rationally, OSM is acting (sort of) rationally... and yet it leads to the worst possible outcome: no big help given. I find it frustrating on both sides of the table. So what will happen is that they do something themselves without OSM involvement and it just pops up in the world one day like wolfram alpha or flickr did and then build their own site reminiscent of maps.cloudmade.com with either just plain browsing the map functionality or some simple tools. You will see this happen multiple times with other companies over the next year or two. That's of course totally fine and allowable by the license blah blah blah, but what we, OSM, lose as a community is all of those eyeballs to help fix the map. I think that's a terrific loss. There are things we can do to fix it, and there are things they can do. I'm hoping that we'll reach a point where the dam will bust and it will be cool and fashionable to support OSM openly and loudly, but we're not quite there yet. Steve stevecoast.com On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:30 AM, Tobias Knerr wrote: 16.06.2010 18:38, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: it might be OK or not, but generally we explain in our wiki how we like to be attributed in the web-context, that is supplying cc-by-sa linked to creative commons and Openstreetmap, not too difficult, is it? Apparently it is counter-intuitive at least for users not reading our wiki, otherwise we wouldn't see those incomplete attributions this often. I even doubt that insisting on that license URI is a good idea at all. The URI isn't really useful in practice as long as people know where the data comes from and are can easily go to osm.org (where we have the possibility to advertise our license conditions in any way we like). It is cumbersome in many environments and enforcing it would require a lot of unpleasant communication: Informing others that they don't conform to a license isn't a great start for relations. Initiatives such as the Lacking proper attribution wiki tables have caused conflict even within the OSM community. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear a lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community. I find the exact opposite: the majority of the projects related to OSM in the past few years have been done in relative quiet. The tools that OSMers use are developed by a small group (or single person) in a bunker somewhere. They infrequently pop up on IRC or the mailing list and ask a question or two, then return to their bunkers to work on their project. When they're done, they might tell someone (they might not). I imagine that a large company (or more likely a bunch of like-minded developers in that company) could do the same. If we can figure out a way to bring the community together and embrace each other's tools, then we will not only solve that problem for the hobby tools we currently write, but also the corporate ones. So you have a sort of prisoners dilemma where we're the company is acting rationally, OSM is acting (sort of) rationally... and yet it leads to the worst possible outcome: no big help given. I find it frustrating on both sides of the table. The same thing can be said for non-corporate help. See for example the time that Tim Berners-Lee made a single post on the mailing list a while back we hounded him with suggestions or questions and sort of scared him off (at least from the mailing list). Again, if we do a better job at accepting non-corporate people we can also do a better job at accepting corporate help. So what will happen is that they do something themselves without OSM involvement and it just pops up in the world one day like wolfram alpha or flickr did and then build their own site reminiscent of maps.cloudmade.comwith either just plain browsing the map functionality or some simple tools. You will see this happen multiple times with other companies over the next year or two. When this sort of thing happens on the free/community/mailing list side of things, someone usually pops up somewhere saying hey I'm doing this neat thing, what do you think? In your examples the people are talking directly to you, Steve. Could you redirect them to the mailing list? If talk is too scary, then maybe this what the professionals mailing list was meant for. Bottom line: the community can't help anyone if it doesn't know anything about the problem. That's of course totally fine and allowable by the license blah blah blah, but what we, OSM, lose as a community is all of those eyeballs to help fix the map. I think that's a terrific loss. There are things we can do to fix it, and there are things they can do. I'm hoping that we'll reach a point where the dam will bust and it will be cool and fashionable to support OSM openly and loudly, but we're not quite there yet. Are we not there yet because we're scaring them off? If so, maybe the community could open its mind and eyes a little bit when ideas like these come in instead of scaring them off with questions about legality and server load and whatnot. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear a lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community. I find the exact opposite: the majority of the projects related to OSM in the past few years have been done in relative quiet. The tools that OSMers use are developed by a small group (or single person) in a bunker somewhere. +1 I also think the companies like to tell Steve that they're the next Sun or Red Hat (opening everyhing up). But when the board meeting comes, they start thinking NT/TA licensing fees is just a cost that they pass on to their customers. If they help OSM, then it will also help their competitors and will not really improve the bottom line. Furthermore, once OSM competes with NT/TA, they may have to compete with the person in the bunker. Are we not there yet because we're scaring them off? If so, maybe the community could open its mind and eyes a little bit when ideas like these come in instead of scaring them off with questions about legality and server load and whatnot. That is much easier said than done. Companies are quite wary of launching the next New Coke. To explain it in OSM terminology: Let's say a company devises a new web site and it has scientifically proof that it is better (e.g. blind tests). Then some people may still see it as a faceless company prescribing to a community what they should do. Throw in a few words like profiteering and it can generate some undeserved bad press for the company. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Cool. Is the license attribution they are using OK? Not according to the FAQ: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 05:47:05PM +0200, Frank Sautter wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin I can't see anything about OSM on that page!? What does it show you? Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.comwrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Is the license attribution they are using OK? Down at the bottom of every W|A page they have a Source Information link. In there, under the Mapping data source information they show OpenStreetMap (CC-BY-SA). » http://www.openstreetmap.org/ with a link to OpenStreetMap.org. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
16.06.2010 17:47, Frank Sautter wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin That's great! It's a useful way to present OSM and it demonstrates growing popularity. If we want to reach a larger audience, we need to be present on search engines and the like - and as Google is unlikely to replace Google Maps with OSM anytime soon, so it's the smaller, more specialized services that might adopt OSM as their map link target first. It's somewhat discouraging, though, that *every time* anyone uses OSM, we instantly react with this: Is the license attribution they are using OK? Imo, it is. They name OSM as a data source directly below the image and let you access osm.org when you click on the image. They also give more detailled attribution (with the license abbreviation and another link to osm.org) on the Source information page. That's where all the other data sources are listed, too - considering the large number of sources, it's clearly resonable to have a separate page for sources. Technically, they don't provide the license URL directly (only indirectly through the link to OSM), but I don't consider that a relevant problem. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
2010/6/16 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: Imo, it is. They name OSM as a data source directly below the image and let you access osm.org when you click on the image. They also give more detailled attribution (with the license abbreviation and another link to osm.org) on the Source information page. That's where all the other data sources are listed, too - considering the large number of sources, it's clearly resonable to have a separate page for sources. it might be OK or not, but generally we explain in our wiki how we like to be attributed in the web-context, that is supplying cc-by-sa linked to creative commons and Openstreetmap, not too difficult, is it? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
It's somewhat discouraging, though, that *every time* anyone uses OSM, we instantly react with this: +1 It's really good to see OSM being used for something that isn't a pet project of someone in this community. It was great to go to WolframAlpha, type in my home town and see a map that I had contributed to. I thought the level of attribution was fine. More of this please! Jumping on users of the data with the usual how's the attribution? will ultimately do more harm than good. Joseph On 16 June 2010 17:29, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: 16.06.2010 17:47, Frank Sautter wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin That's great! It's a useful way to present OSM and it demonstrates growing popularity. If we want to reach a larger audience, we need to be present on search engines and the like - and as Google is unlikely to replace Google Maps with OSM anytime soon, so it's the smaller, more specialized services that might adopt OSM as their map link target first. It's somewhat discouraging, though, that *every time* anyone uses OSM, we instantly react with this: Is the license attribution they are using OK? Imo, it is. They name OSM as a data source directly below the image and let you access osm.org when you click on the image. They also give more detailled attribution (with the license abbreviation and another link to osm.org) on the Source information page. That's where all the other data sources are listed, too - considering the large number of sources, it's clearly resonable to have a separate page for sources. Technically, they don't provide the license URL directly (only indirectly through the link to OSM), but I don't consider that a relevant problem. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Hi, Frank Sautter wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Interesting, they seem to have their own rendering as well. A little yesterday perhaps with no slippy map and zooming via a dropdown but surely a good start. Should like to find out how current they are (they say based on current OpenStreetMap data). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2010, um 18:41:36 schrieb Joseph Reeves: It's somewhat discouraging, though, that *every time* anyone uses OSM, we instantly react with this: +1 It's really good to see OSM being used for something that isn't a pet project of someone in this community. It was great to go to WolframAlpha, type in my home town and see a map that I had contributed to. I thought the level of attribution was fine. More of this please! Jumping on users of the data with the usual how's the attribution? will ultimately do more harm than good. +1 from me The attribution is given just not to visible. Still fine for me I like the map beeing used not hidden because everyone fears the licence Joerg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wednesday 16 June 2010 18:00:11 Ian Dees wrote: Down at the bottom of every W|A page they have a Source Information link. In there, under the Mapping data source information they show OpenStreetMap (CC-BY-SA). » http://www.openstreetmap.org/ with a link to OpenStreetMap.org. Yeah. And that looks fine to me. We get the same attribution as anyone else WA is using. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es Aviso: Este e-mail es confidencial y no debería ser usado por nadie que no sea el destinatario original. No se permite la reproducción mediante fotocopia, walkie-talkie, emisora de radioaficionado, satélite, televisión por cable, proyector, señales de humo, código morse, braille, lenguaje de signos, taquigrafía o cualquier otro medio. Bajo ningún concepto debe traducirse al francés este e-mail. Este e-mail no puede ser ridiculizado, parodiado, juzgado en una competición, o leído en voz alta con un acento gracioso llevando un bigote falso y/o cualquier tipo de sombrero, incluyendo pero no limitándose a pañuelos. No inciten ni provoquen a este e-mail. Si está medicándose, puede experimentar nauseas, desorientación, histeria, vómitos, pérdida temporal de la memoria a corto plazo y malestar general al leer este e-mail. Consulte a su médico o farmacéutico antes de leer este e-mail. Todas las modelos descritas en este e-mail son mayores de 18 años. Este e-mail se reserva el derecho de admisión. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error es probablemente porque estaba borracho cuando escribí la dirección del destinatario. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Cool. Is the license attribution they are using OK? Not according to the FAQ: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F I didn't see the attribution on the bottom. Seems a little strange to do half attribution but as long as it's there, great. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Nice catch. That's super. Is the license attribution they are using OK? It looks good to me. Different from what we recommend for what is predominantly a map, but their page is not predominantly a map. ccbysa allows appropriate attribution with similar prominence: Such credit may be implemented in any reasonable manner; provided, however, that in the case of a Derivative Work or Collective Work, at a minimum such credit will appear where any other comparable authorship credit appears and in a manner at least as prominent as such other comparable authorship credit. I'm thrilled to see OSM on Wolfram Alpha. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On 17 June 2010 03:47, Frank Sautter openstreet...@sautter.com wrote: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Berlin Is the license attribution they are using OK? I think it depends on whether you can seperate the map that Wolfram|Alpha have created from the rest of their content. If the map is seen as separate from the rest of the page, then I think it's probably fine. However, I think that it's a stretch to say that the single map component is seperate from the rest of the result. The whole thing creates a single creative work. Therefore, I think that every result that uses an OSM map should be licenced under CC-BY-SA or similar: *Share Alike* — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one [1] However, from the sounds of this discussion, the OSM community seems to really be caring about the attribution requirement. If so, I think the group should reduce its licencing requirements to CC-BY. This would reflect the intention of what people are after in practice. -Tim [1] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
Tim, Tim McNamara wrote: The whole thing creates a single creative work. The term single creative work is not used in the CC license text. Displaying OSM content and other content side-by-side does not form a work derived from OpenStreetMap according to community consensus. You need to do more than just display them side by side if you wanted to trigger the share-alike clause. (Compare: Just because a music CD contains one track licensed CC-BY-SA, this doesn't mean the whole CD has to be, even if the CC-BY-SA licensed track has been selected to match the theme. The whole has not been built upon the part.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On 17 June 2010 10:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Tim McNamara wrote: The whole thing creates a single creative work. The term single creative work is not used in the CC license text. Displaying OSM content and other content side-by-side does not form a work derived from OpenStreetMap according to community consensus. Sorry if I've neglected to look into this issue in more detail. May I ask, which community consensus are you referring to? OSM or CC? My understanding was the intention behind a share-alike clause is to compel people using the work to release their works under similar licences. If the OSM community doesn't really care about forcing licencing on others, then I actually think we have reached the same conclusion. See my notes in the last paragraph. You need to do more than just display them side by side if you wanted to trigger the share-alike clause. (Compare: Just because a music CD contains one track licensed CC-BY-SA, this doesn't mean the whole CD has to be, even if the CC-BY-SA licensed track has been selected to match the theme. The whole has not been built upon the part.) I don't think this is the correct analogy to draw. I feel that a result of a search query is more like a single track on a CD. Elements within the result query (or the track) can be divided further, but the whole result/track is a single work. If you include another artist's work inside that track, I assume that would trigger the share-alike clause. The real thrust of my argument was that if widespread adoption of OSM attributation is the goal of the community, then OSM should reduce its licencing requirements. Shifting to CC-BY would align more strongly with the comments I've seen in this thread. Tim ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On 16 June 2010 23:09, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: Sorry if I've neglected to look into this issue in more detail. May I ask, which community consensus are you referring to? OSM or CC? My understanding was the intention behind a share-alike clause is to compel people using the work to release their works under similar licences. If the OSM community doesn't really care about forcing licencing on others, then I actually think we have reached the same conclusion. See my notes in the last paragraph. I am interested in our map data, so that we can make great maps, great routing apps, [insert other great things here] So if they improve our _map data_, I want the improvements to be able to be fed back into our map data. Things beyond the map data I am not interested in. / Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data
On Thursday 17 June 2010 00:41:43 Grant Slater wrote: Things beyond the map data I am not interested in. Aw, c'mon. You ARE interested in beer and map cakes. :-P -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
