Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Perhaps nobody ever writes NW as 'north-west', but I expect that nobody ever pronounces it as 'enn double-yew' either. Speech applications may require the name in pronounceable and unabbreviated form. So there is certainly a case for having that in the map. Whether it should be in the 'name' tag is another matter. I would also point out that the abbreviated form Ln, St, and so on can be trivially derived from Lane and Street, but the reverse operation is not so easy (St could be Saint). That argues for picking the form with more information, if you have to pick one of them. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Am 28. März 2012 13:46 schrieb Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: Perhaps nobody ever writes NW as 'north-west', but I expect that nobody ever pronounces it as 'enn double-yew' either. Speech applications may require the name in pronounceable and unabbreviated form. So there is certainly a case for having that in the map. Whether it should be in the 'name' tag is another matter. I would also point out that the abbreviated form Ln, St, and so on can be trivially derived from Lane and Street, but the reverse operation is not so easy (St could be Saint). That argues for picking the form with more information, if you have to pick one of them. +1, e.g. there is the tag official_name that is used in some contexts to store fully expanded/long names (which usually aren't in colloquial use). For example the name-tag for Italy is Italia but the value of official_name is Repubblica Italiana (Italian republic). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these official street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: Hi User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped? -Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 23/03/2012 13:47, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these official street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become. I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind: - Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let the user choose which one he wants. Would a name:abbreviated tag make sense ? Is the expanded name the canonical one ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: On 23/03/2012 13:47, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. If these automated edits surprised you (a local) then the automated edits likely fail to comply with the automated edits code of conduct. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 3/23/2012 9:04 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: On 23/03/2012 13:47, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these official street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become. I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind: - Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let the user choose which one he wants. Would a name:abbreviated tag make sense ? Is the expanded name the canonical one ? I'm not familiar enough with OSM or mapping terminology to know which is canonical, but my address is: USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the city-supplied street sign shows Waterman Ln. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ PS. For non-US residents, USPS = United States Postal Service ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 23/03/12 21:04, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: On 23/03/2012 13:47, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these official street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become. I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind: - Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let the user choose which one he wants. They are correct as per here: wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 in that openstreetmap wiki has always had this. For the other questions it's easy to go from the full name to an abbreviated output but not always easy to go from abbreviated to full. For example is Ln Line or Lane as per here: wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations This has been debated many times. I know the USPS has it's standard listing but the data input is more important to be the full name and then abbreviate if necessary when output. Cheers Ross ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. They don't look like mass automated edits to me - these are smaller quantities of changes made via Potlatch. They could just be responding to the editor's prompts not to use abbreviations. In the US, there is this thread - http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2012-February/007436.html The consensus seems to lean toward automating the name expansion. And no matter how many times it is discussed ahead of time, someone will be surprised when the script is run (if it ever does run). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Tagging with abbreviated names is tagging for the renderer. The database should be as unambiguous as possible, and the renderer should apply local abbreviation conventions. This is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC, you say. But it's the way people in DC pronounce it, which is what a navigation system or an audio map for blind users would do. Our database isn't just used to render images. The renderer can use rules to de-abbreviate, you will say. It gets complicated for ambiguous abbreviations — is St Saint or Street? On 23 Mar 2012, at 13:47, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: IMHO, here in the US we have the USPS which has published standardized street naming conventions specifically using the abbreviations. It would seem to me that these official street names are what should stick and the expansions of them should not be happening. Not to mention how much more crowded the map labels would become. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ On 3/23/2012 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron wrote: Hi User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped? -Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: I'm new to this problem, but those possible strategies spring to my mind: - Record only the abbreviated name and let the user expand it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record only the canonical expanded name and let the user abbreviate it using his favourite rules if he wants. - Record both the canonical expanded name and the abbreviated name, let the user choose which one he wants. Usually, the name tag should contain the non-abbreviated name, and software using the data should shorten it if appropriate. See e.g. the relevant section in http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names : Do not abbreviate words. Computers can easily shorten words but not the other way (St. could be Street or Saint). If the signs have abbreviated words and you don't know what the full word is, then use it temporarily until someone else complete it. Using short forms is a decision of software i.e. the underlying data should have the full street name. This will allow a renderer, a router or a location finder to introduce abbreviations as necessary. Around here (Germany), we indeed avoid using even common abbreviations in the name tag . But how you handle this in your area is of course an issue that should preferably be agreed on by local contributors, and any automated edits need to be discussed in advance. I think it would be easier for users of our data if the conventions for tags like name=* would be applied somewhat consistently throughout the map, though. Tobias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 23/03/12 12:36, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Well the normal rule in OSM is that we write names unabbreviated because it's easier for a user to abbreviate automatically then to expand automatically. That said certain abbreviations are so common in the US that the names are essentially never written in full and those possibly should be left alone. In any case, clearly doing this in an automated way without discussion is inappropriate. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 3/23/2012 9:40 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: On 23/03/12 12:36, Mikel Maron wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Well the normal rule in OSM is that we write names unabbreviated because it's easier for a user to abbreviate automatically then to expand automatically. That said certain abbreviations are so common in the US that the names are essentially never written in full and those possibly should be left alone. Hence http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations#English Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 23/03/2012 13:14, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the city-supplied street sign shows Waterman Ln. I just looked up a couple of US cities in a (US) encyclopaedia I have, and all references to specific highways had the 'generic' part of the name spelled out in full, e.g. 'Pennsylvania Avenue', '42nd Street'. Interesting that it was '42nd' and not 'Forty-second' though. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
When I'm editing and area with abbreviated names (usually untouched TIGER) I will manually expand them because I agree with the OSM wiki's take on things [0]. For most (all?) uses other than rendering text on maps, the full expansion makes more sense than the abbreviation. Granted, I would rarely write out, eg, 14th Street Northwest, but that *is* how I pronounce it, and it's probably more useful for translations or other things you would want to do with the data. Its much easier for tools to automatically abbreviate words than the other way around. (We've done automatic abbreviations for the latest MapBox map [1].) I agree that abbreviations should not be automatically expanded by bots, but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening here. [0]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 [1]: http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/mapbox.mapbox-streets.html#17.00/38.92490/-77.04019 -- AJ Ashton ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
Lynn wrote: my address is: USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the city-supplied street sign shows Waterman Ln. http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GBword1=%22waterman+ln%22word2=%22waterman+lane%22 this looks like it is almost a draw (181:150). So never ever seems exaggerated. :-) Cheers, Kay ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped? 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest is the correct name. The others are abbreviations. You'd never say 1600 Pennsylvania 'ave En Double-U Automated edits are bad, but he's putting in the correct names. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On 3/23/2012 11:00 AM, Kay Drangmeister wrote: Lynn wrote: my address is: USPS: 521 Waterman Ln SE Full: 521 Waterman Lane SouthEast But I've never, ever written it in the full form and even the city-supplied street sign shows Waterman Ln. http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GBword1=%22waterman+ln%22word2=%22waterman+lane%22 this looks like it is almost a draw (181:150). So never ever seems exaggerated. :-) Nope, note the I in that statement. I have NEVER written it in full form. Lane, yes. SouthEast NEVER. Consider: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GBword1=waterman+ln+seword2=waterman+lane+southeast But I'm dropping out of this discussion having learned of the OSM standard and being made re-aware of the difference between the data and a rendering of the data. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
-Original Message- From: AJ Ashton [mailto:aj.ash...@gmail.com] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?! Its much easier for tools to automatically abbreviate words than the other way around. (We've done automatic abbreviations for the latest MapBox map [1].) I agree that abbreviations should not be automatically expanded by bots, but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening here. [0]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.2 9 [1]: http://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/mapbox.mapbox- streets.html#17.00/38.92490/-77.04019 -- AJ Ashton MQ Open also does automatic abbreviation of names, at least in the US. They don't handle Northwest - NW, but they do handle Street - St and the other common street names. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] automated abbreviation changes?!
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 5:36 AM, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: User chdr (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chdr) seems to be running a script to automatically replace street name abbreviations with the full word. so 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW becomes 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest. Which is not the way anyone ever writes street names here in DC. Anyone else aware of this? Opinions? Should this be stopped? Rule one for names: Abbreviations: Just don't do it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
