Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 1 June 2013 15:29, Nilbog_Aus OSM nilbog_aus_...@nilbogcave.com wrote: Not that I'm sure we should use it but I think they are usually gazetted by state government eg NSW http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ra199373/s48.html?stem=0synonyms=0query=Freeway Any state that has laws prohibiting access to certain groups (eg pedestrians) to freeways needs a legal definition. I'm pretty sure most states and countries that have freeways limit access. A quick search of the NSW gazette shows many instances of freeways being gazetted by the RMS. On 1 June 2013 19:55, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: The Australian road rules (on which each states rules are based) :- ... Any sign that has the following is considered a freeway :- freeway motorway tollway expressway Yes, RR177 seems to define a freeway, making the rules self-contained. All that is required by this definition is to have the sign in place - no reference to any external definition or gazetting. It is made more interesting, by the RMS road classification document not identifying main roads as freeways or otherwise, stating that it is a matter for their real-estate division. So, it looks like we have several options for test for what type of road should be represented by an OSM motorway tag in NSW. The ones I can think of are: 1. Indicated by an 'M' in the route reference. 2. Indicated by a Start Freeway/Motorway sign. 3. Gazetted as a freeway. 4. Constructed to a engineering freeway standard according to the NSW RMS. 5. A controlled access dual carriageway road with at least two lanes in each carriageway. 6. A consensus among editors that the road should be represented in OSM as a motorway. 7. A combination of the above. Personally, I've changed my mind with each contribution to the discussion I've made (so I should just leave the discussion now, but here goes..) I like the objectivity and remote mapping capability of just using the route reference as an identifier. I don't like the thought of referring to the gazette. I like the possibility that if a freeway conditions are indicated by a sign, then we can map them as freeways we well as just 'M' roads. I don't like identifying sections of the Hume south of Berrima as different than north, when to all intents and purposes the driving conditions are identical. If I had to make a call, I'd say that either a 'M' in the route reference OR a 'Start freeway/motorway' sign, both deserve a motorway tag. This gives us something objective. Unfortunately, I think that means large sections of the Hume, and the Newcastle link road go to trunk. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 01/06/13 14:32, Ian Sergeant wrote: On 1 June 2013 09:29, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: There is a legal difference between a divided highway and a freeway in Australia, so if it is not actually called a freeway/motorway via signage then it really isn't one. Firstly, I'm a little sceptical of there actually being a legal difference. Can you point to a source that would make this clear? The Australian road rules (on which each states rules are based) :- RR 97 Road access signs RR 177 Stopping on a freeway There are also rules that reference these rules such as the exceptions for a garbage truck stopping does not include an exception to RR 177 Any sign that has the following is considered a freeway :- freeway motorway tollway expressway ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 29/05/13 22:51, Ian Sergeant wrote: I'd like to indicate freeway class sections as motorways, however, I can see the argument to just objectively use the RMS classifications. Will save edit wars down the track to just have one easy rule. There is a legal difference between a divided highway and a freeway in Australia, so if it is not actually called a freeway/motorway via signage then it really isn't one. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 1 June 2013 09:29, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: There is a legal difference between a divided highway and a freeway in Australia, so if it is not actually called a freeway/motorway via signage then it really isn't one. Firstly, I'm a little sceptical of there actually being a legal difference. Can you point to a source that would make this clear? Freeway/motorway standard is a term commonly used by the RMS, but it is an engineering standard. RMS are labelling roads clearly not motorway standard as 'M' roads and v.v. The standard required clearly also varies between states, with what passes for a freeway in Victoria doesn't cut it in NSW, for example. There are freeway commence signs on roads that will not be labelled as 'M' roads (or even, in some cases, not even given an alphanumeric designation) *RMS appreciates that other sections of road that will be signposted as the A1 under the new system may already be of motorway standard. However, to avoid frequent changes between M1 and A1 numbering, RMS will hold off assigning the M1 designation until sections of the road between major town centres have been upgraded *. So, the question is, do we want to use the engineering standard of the road to decide our tagging, or do we want to use the RMS 'M' indicator - because the two aren't necessarily linked. Personally, I'd like to think we can find a way to use the roadway standard. For example, I think tagging the Harbour Bridge as a motorway (60km/h non-divided) is wrong. However, I also see the value of adopting objective standards in OSM, so I'm happy to go along with the labelling that RMS uses, if it allows more consistency across the state. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 01/06/2013, at 2:33 PM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 June 2013 09:29, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: There is a legal difference between a divided highway and a freeway in Australia, so if it is not actually called a freeway/motorway via signage then it really isn't one. Firstly, I'm a little sceptical of there actually being a legal difference. Can you point to a source that would make this clear? Not that I'm sure we should use it but I think they are usually gazetted by state government eg NSW http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ra199373/s48.html?stem=0synonyms=0query=Freeway Any state that has laws prohibiting access to certain groups (eg pedestrians) to freeways needs a legal definition. I'm pretty sure most states and countries that have freeways limit access. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 29/05/13 10:40, Ben Johnson wrote: Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? If they're calling it A37 then they're not calling it a motorway. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 29/05/2013, at 18:26, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: On 29/05/13 10:40, Ben Johnson wrote: Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? If they're calling it A37 then they're not calling it a motorway. Just like large parts of A31 and A1? :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
I just looked to see what Google and Whereis do. Whereis calls the Hume Highway the M31 throughout its length in NSW. Many of the actual 'A' sections are coloured as motorway. Google calls it the A31 to the border where it is actually the M31, but only seems to colour the actual RMS 'M' sections as motorways (even though it has the labelling wrong). I'd like to indicate freeway class sections as motorways, however, I can see the argument to just objectively use the RMS classifications. Will save edit wars down the track to just have one easy rule. Ian. On 29/05/13 18:26, Michael James wrote: On 29/05/13 10:40, Ben Johnson wrote: Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? If they're calling it A37 then they're not calling it a motorway. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? If they're calling it A37 then they're not calling it a motorway. Could you just ask the relevant state authority? nick *** WARNING: This email (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email without appropriate authority. If this email was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or email me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this email and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this email do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Department of Transport and Main Roads, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
