Re: [OSM-talk-be] YES, we can trace the PICC (was: Using SPW PICC layer in josm)

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

Sorry, this became a rather long mail. But it is important, and I tried to
be as clear as possible.

Meanwhile I spoke with Lionel on our Riot channel [1] and with Simon Poole
through legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org.

If I understood, André says this:

- the license for all the geoportail WMS products is this [2]
- that license does not allow copying
- the geoportail team is the intermediary between the data source and the
citizen, and can represent the data source
- the geoportail team says (in a copy pasted mail) that yes, tracing the
PICC WMS is considered consulting and that is allowed

So things you could help answer:
- are we sure Geoportail has the authority to clarify this license? (I
don't know enough about Walloon gov structure; Lionel is quite sure they
do; more opinions would be nice)
- is the wording used in the e-mail enough?
- is an e-mail enough or do we need something a bit more formal?
- is this answer also valid for other WMS

The answer from OSMF is quite clear:
- if the license does not explicitly allow tracing, then you need a written
permission
- a written document (signed and scanned PDF) is always best, but e-mails
can be acceptable
- the text needs to contain something like the first paragraph of this text
[3]. This contains legalese explaining what tracing for OSM implies.
Generally, language like this will trigger the person answering the request
to check higher up in the organisation, so we can be more sure someone with
actual power in the organisation signs the document.

I think this answer implies that:
a) we shouldn't call other's vigilantes just because they feel what we
currently have is not enough, as what we have clearlu is not what the OSMF
would like is to have
b)  we do kind of have something, so there probably is no reason to panic
if a mapper says they've been using any of the geoportail WMS
c) we really should get a better document. This document should not only
contain some decent legalese, but also explicitly ask the permission for
use of all the WMS that are under the standard license [2] and have no
extra license info.

Actions for right now:
- add a little section to the PICC wiki pages explaining the difference
between SPW/PICC/WMS; add a section explaining that whether or not PICC is
OK for use is up to debate, not a BOLD YES. The wiki should reflect
community opinion, not "the truth".
- prepare a text and send it out again to geoportail. I've prepared a
little framapad [4] for that

Doing all this stuff may look like boring work, but remember that for
everyone shouting "we shouldn't use this" or "we really can use this",
there are ten standing by confused. So let's stop the shouting and get to
work.
(to be honest: I may need to include myself in the group of shouters, as I
was quite worried when André first started talking about that Michelin
project)



1: https://riot.im/app/#/room/#osmbe:matrix.org
2:
http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/LicServicesSPW.pdf
3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3PN5zfbzThqLXg1TUlxalAtVE0/view
4: https://annuel2.framapad.org/p/geoportail-spw
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] YES, we can trace the PICC (was: Using SPW PICC layer in josm)

[joost schouppe]

>
> I guess Glenn’s point is that the license issue cannot be circumvented,
> even if the king itself says something different than its contents.
>

I'm not really sure about this, but I think it could work if the copyright
owner creates some official documentation explaining that tracing on top of
their imagery is not considered copying. My French isn't good enough to
understand if the mail from geoportail is saying exactly that. But if
anyone thinks it would be possible to get them to add a clause like this,
we could ask legal-questions if a model like that could work. I don't think
a copy-pasted e-mail is enough though.

André, could you elaborate the statement that tracing = consulting? I don't
really understand how you come to that conclusion

> I made an overpass turbo script showing OSM with the Michelin's colors.
> I won't show it because the vigilantes would accuse me to copy Michelin's
colors.
> While doing so, I noticed that the main axis Ans-Amercœur wasn't fully
Michelin's colors.
> So, this could produce suboptimal routes.
> This is because a few N3 streets are tagged highway=secondary instead of
=primary.
> I certainly did not correct that because the vigilantes would say that it
is copying Michelin.

I'm still of the opinion that we cannot use Michelin to validate our own
map. But here you're talking about using the coloring of OSM roads to look
for strange situations. That is obviously OK. If you really want to do that
in Michelin style colors because that's what you like to see, I don't think
anyone could be against that (though copyright holders sometimes think in
strange ways).
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] YES, we can trace the PICC (was: Using SPW PICC layer in josm)

[mgwebmail]

André,

I guess Glenn’s point is that the license issue cannot be circumvented, even if 
the king itself says something different than its contents.

You said that Glenn looked at the wrong file, but as far as I can see you 
didn’t provide any other one. Did you ?

From the OSM point of view, Wallonia will need to endorse ODBL or any 
compatible license scheme in order fro PICC (and others) to be accepted as a 
valid data source. It’s an administrative and legal point of view, nothing 
personal for god’s sake !

I was recently in the process of mapping a big bicycle network (Wallonie 
Picarde à Vélo (4128428) ) and 
I had to stop at 70% of completion because the Province suddenly asked me (why 
me ?) to sign some documents that was completely against the ODBL license. 
Potentially the whole relation could be deleted right now, even if it took me 
hours and hours of work. 

It’s sad but I’m afraid that until Wallonia move its ass and enters the 21st 
century their will be no progress possible on that front.

Matthieu

> On 7 May 2017, at 17:15, André Pirard  wrote:
> 
> Très long message...  Read throughout, up to the end absolutely! Highly 
> important!
> 
> Despite the explanation on SPW's site that PICC browsing & tracing is public 
> domain and the report from Julien Fastré, recalled by myself, of what the 
> PICC told him, the SPW would certainly not sue OSM for using the PICC that 
> way, vigilantes repeatedly say that the SPW could and they threaten their 
> mates with OSM exclusion and total contribution removal, whatever the source. 
> 
> This letter explains all that in greater detail.
> 
> On 2016-02-26 17:52, Glenn Plas wrote:
>> On 26-02-16 14:23, Thib wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> SPW PICC tiles layer is available in JOSM for mapping Belgian Southern
>>> area but I can't find enough information about the license terms.
>>> 
>>> Is it allowed to :
>>> - copy (doing"calc") buildings and other objects boundaries (as we do
>>> with bing tiles)
>>> - get address house numbers
>>> 
>>> I've found some old threads talking about that interesting source but no
>>> real answer...
>>> 
>>> If someone has any information about it, It would be very useful.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Thib
>> Reading their license, this is not open data as they restrict the reuse
>> and retain the right to change the license later.  This data should not
>> be used at all imho.  Now my french isn't that great on the legal
>> vocabulary notes, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't look good
>> to me:
>> 
>> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf 
>> 
>> 
>> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/CopieDataSPW-CGA.pdf 
>> 
>> 
>> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf 
>> 
>> 
>> For data to be OSM-fit, you need a compatible license like GRB and AGIV
>> have.
> You simply looked at the wrong files. 
>> So, unless someone claims i'm wrong, we should not use this at all, if
>> you do... and a claim is made, that data will be removed from OSM by
>> analysing the user names involved and their changesets.
> It's amazing how many OSM contributors threaten their mates based on 
> superficial facts or © analysis (1).
> Think twice.  The danger is that the SPW could complain about OSM ("a 
> claim"), isn't it? 
> What could be the problem if they say they will not?
> You simply misunderstood their "access rights" and I "claim that you're 
> wrong" indeed !!! 
>> I'll be ignoring Lionel's follow-up and act like I didn't read it at all ...
>> 
>> Glenn
> On 2016-03-02 09:39, Glenn Plas wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Apparently it's not clear enough
> Obviously, and I'm going to try to make it clear.
>> You can't use it.  It's not a matter of opinion nor I care what certain
>> persons from PICC said to someone else I don't really know.  I should
>> not care either, because that's what licences are for.  They show me in
>> clear language what can and cannot.
> Is it important that you knew Julien Fastré as well as everybody does, and 
> the person he talked to and who explained on behalf of SPW Carto that only 
> copying the PICC is licensed and that OSM does not copy it.  The license 
> regarding what we do is "public domain" (explained below).
> What could be the problem?
>> It's really simple, you check the license.  I'm not having the
>> discussion on what exactly copying data is (or isn't).  
> Obviously, if you refuse to understand what the word "copy" means, you will 
> not understand the word "copyright".
>> I was quite
>> clear on it:  you can only copy data over with compatible licenses. We
>> all know what making a copy is in 2016.
> No, nobody knows before having 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] YES, we can trace the PICC (was: Using SPW PICC layer in josm)

[André Pirard]

Très long message...  Read throughout, up to the end absolutely! Highly
important!

Despite the explanation on SPW's site that PICC browsing & tracing is
public domain and the report from Julien Fastré, recalled by myself, of
what the PICC told him, the SPW would certainly not sue OSM for using
the PICC that way, vigilantes repeatedly say that the SPW could and they
threaten their mates with OSM exclusion and total contribution removal,
whatever the source.

This letter explains all that in greater detail.

On 2016-02-26 17:52, Glenn Plas wrote:
> On 26-02-16 14:23, Thib wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> SPW PICC tiles layer is available in JOSM for mapping Belgian Southern
>> area but I can't find enough information about the license terms.
>>
>> Is it allowed to :
>> - copy (doing"calc") buildings and other objects boundaries (as we do
>> with bing tiles)
>> - get address house numbers
>>
>> I've found some old threads talking about that interesting source but no
>> real answer...
>>
>> If someone has any information about it, It would be very useful.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Thib
> Reading their license, this is not open data as they restrict the reuse
> and retain the right to change the license later.  This data should not
> be used at all imho.  Now my french isn't that great on the legal
> vocabulary notes, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't look good
> to me:
>
> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf
>
> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/CopieDataSPW-CGA.pdf
>
> http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf
>
> For data to be OSM-fit, you need a compatible license like GRB and AGIV
> have.
You simply looked at the wrong files.
> So, unless someone claims i'm wrong, we should not use this at all, if
> you do... and a claim is made, that data will be removed from OSM by
> analysing the user names involved and their changesets.
It's amazing how many OSM contributors threaten their mates based on
superficial facts or © analysis (1).
Think twice.  The danger is that the SPW could complain about OSM ("a
claim"), isn't it?
What could be the problem if they say they will not?
You simply misunderstood their "access rights" and I "claim that you're
wrong" indeed !!!
> I'll be ignoring Lionel's follow-up and act like I didn't read it at all ...
>
> Glenn
On 2016-03-02 09:39, Glenn Plas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Apparently it's not clear enough
Obviously, and I'm going to try to make it clear.
> You can't use it.  It's not a matter of opinion nor I care what certain
> persons from PICC said to someone else I don't really know.  I should
> not care either, because that's what licences are for.  They show me in
> clear language what can and cannot.
Is it important that you knew Julien Fastré as well as everybody does,
and the person he talked to and who explained on behalf of SPW Carto
that only copying the PICC is licensed and that OSM does not copy it. 
The license regarding what we do is "public domain" (explained below).
What could be the problem?
> It's really simple, you check the license.  I'm not having the
> discussion on what exactly copying data is (or isn't).  
Obviously, if you refuse to understand what the word "copy" means, you
will not understand the word "copyright".
> I was quite
> clear on it:  you can only copy data over with compatible licenses. We
> all know what making a copy is in 2016.
No, nobody knows before having understood or asked the copyright owner
what he means with "copy" (1).
And many self-appointed vigilantes do not even do that.
> I'm almost pulling out my hair btw, because you're not making the
> correct conclusions.
>
> You can NOT copy from data sources with incompatible licenses, having a
> high five from someone at PICC does not count as a license.
>
> Glenn

What "copying" means and what can be done by "tracing" is rather clearly
defined in the Conditions on their site
.
With PICC, one can do two things (see the titles of the Web page):

  *


  Obtenir une copie de la donnée (= get a copy of the data)

that is *copying* (downloading files) and the conditions are:
  o Conditions générales d’accès à l’obtention d’une copie numérique
des données géographiques numériques du Service public de
Wallonie


  o Conditions particulières d’accès  à l’obtention d’une copie
numérique d’une donnée géographique numérique du Service public
de Wallonie –Type B1


  o Conditions générales d’utilisation des données géographiques
numériques du Service public de Wallonie


  o *that is a pay license