Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Warin]

A liquidator will try to maximalise money returned.
This could/should mean sale of fixtures and fitting of leased premisses 
and then terminating leases.




 On 25/09/19 22:03, Edward Bainton wrote:

Legal situation of leases, fixtures and fittings as far as I'm aware:
- Lease continues and rent continues to be payable.
- Liquidator can disclaim the lease, bringing all obligations to an end OR
- Once in arrears/other breach of covenant (such as keeping open for 
trade), landlord can deem the lease forfeit: property returns to them
- Once owed 7 days' rent (which could be many months hence if paid 
quarterly in advance), landlord has right to impound and liquidate 
fixtures and fittings to offset their losses, after some procedural 
safeguards.


But as SK53 says, eyeballs must be best.

Not a lawyer, just a geek who read this up as a charity trustee. 
Corrections gladly received.


On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:07, SK53 > wrote:


I suspect the fixtures & fittings will be cleared out fairly
pronto, although not the fascia signage. As the firm has been
liquidated I presume all leases on retail property are now in
default, and consequently null and void. Landlords will be anxious
to get new tenants as quickly as possible, and are likely to clear
the shops for that reason. (A certain amount of speculation on my
part as I don't know what the actual legal situation with
ownership of fixtures & fittings is in these circumstances). Ether
way we can learn more by some on-the-ground surveys.

Phones 4U went into administration in September 2014, and their
shops were cleared out of fittings pretty rapidly, although they
remained as visible 'ghosts'  on high streets for a long time
afterwards.

A nice refinement of the shop=X => shop=vacant;disused:shop=yes
would be to only go from name=Y to old_name=Y when the signage
disappears. Frederic Rodrigo talked about pedestrian navigation by
landmark at SotM, and prominent closed shops (and also pubs) are
often useful landmarks. However, I think this is still a luxury
for the average mapper trying to keep somewhere up-to-date.

Jerry

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 14:54, Chris Hill mailto:o...@raggedred.net>> wrote:

Thomas Cook shops are not vacant. They may not be open to the
public today, but they may well be reopened by a new owner in
the future and that may even be under the Thomas Cook brand if
the administrator sells some or all of them to another
company. In the mean time they are still branded and still a
landmark of sorts.

If a shop is emptied or reused by another firm then change
that one otherwise I think we should wait for a while to see
what happens.

cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 24/09/2019 14:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:

I'm a fan of shop=vacant, old_name=Thomas Cook myself

You could argue for not:name=Thomas Cook maybe

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019, 13:34 Tadeusz Cantwell,
mailto:t4d...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I changed the three shops in N.I to
disused;shop=travel-agent since I wasn't sure what the
best practice was in this case. Not all of them had the
wiki links etc. Any advice on a better way?



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[Talk-GB] OSM UK volunteers required

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi,

Last month OSM UK (the non-profit community interest company) set out it's
strategy areas for the 2019/20 year. We have made a start on these but a
bit more volunteer time will allow us to speed them up.

If you could volunteer some time for any of the following, please let me
know. Each requires some initial planning before implementing solutions.
Help at either stage is appreciated.

   1. Use the quarterly projects to partner with another organisation to
   leverage their membership/supporters.
   2. Pursue a role as a lobby group. That is, getting OSM on the radar of
   large organisations.
   3. Proactive outreach to businesses, organisations and academia to show
   them a front door to using and contributing to OSM.
   4. Enhance / nurture the Talent Directory.
   5. Help shape tagging guidelines.
   6. Develop guidelines to work out when OSM UK should and should not
   support a mechanical edit / data import.
   7. A micro-grant programme to support those who want to help us grow the
   community via talks, workshops, etc.
   8. Focus on map fixes (e.g. a quarterly project on Notes, Fixmes).
   9. Assist with conflating TfL Cycle Infrastructure Data into OSM

Thank you,
*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

But, as I am sure has been said by someone else recently:
a.  A shop is still a shop, even when it is closed.b.  A permanently closed 
shop that still has the signage / branding all over it is still a useful 
landmark.
So, I think I would favour disused:shop=*  That way you know from the outset 
that you won't be able to buy anything there atm, but all the other details, 
like name= can be retained.
Regards,Peter

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019, 14:03:21 BST, Andy Allan 
 wrote:  
 
 On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 14:51, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 13:38, Dave F via Talk-GB
>  wrote:
> >
> > Because shop=* indicates it is still open for business.
>
> If it does not do so in "shop=vacant" then it does not do so in
> something like "opening_hours = none".

What you're proposing here is "oh no it isn't" tagging, which is
generally frowned on.

amenity = pub <- "yay, this is a pub"
opening_hours = none <- "oh no it isn't"

Any map, app, geocoder etc that doesn't parse the additional tags is
therefore mislead. It's much more preferable to avoid confusion by
changing the main tag, in this case changing the "shop" tag to
something else (like vacant) or removing it entirely by converting it
into disused:shop tag.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 13:38, Dave F via Talk-GB
 wrote:
>
> Because shop=* indicates it is still open for business.

If it does not do so in "shop=vacant" then it does not do so in
something like "opening_hours = none".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[David Woolley]

On 25/09/2019 13:24, Andy Mabbett wrote:

   opening_hours = none


I believe the correct syntax would be:

opening_hours=closed

or even

opening_hours=closed "tenant being liquidated"

The evaluator accepts both, although gripes about the lack of public 
holiday rules.  It interprets the latter as:


Facility is always closed in the (near) future, comment: "tenant being 
liquidated"


Whereas it throws out "none" on seeing the second "n".

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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

Because shop=* indicates it is still open for business.
disused:shop=* indicates it not being used for it's previous purpose.

On 25/09/2019 13:24, Andy Mabbett wrote:


"Closed for business" does not equate to "vacant".

Why not some thing like

opening_hours = none




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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 15:42, Dave F via Talk-GB
 wrote:
>
> Something has happened. The company went into liquidation (not administration
> under which, I believe, they could still operate) & the shops have closed.
>
> If your local chippy closed would you leave it mapped as still open for 
> business?

"Closed for business" does not equate to "vacant".

Why not some thing like

   opening_hours = none

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[Edward Bainton]

Legal situation of leases, fixtures and fittings as far as I'm aware:
- Lease continues and rent continues to be payable.
- Liquidator can disclaim the lease, bringing all obligations to an end OR
- Once in arrears/other breach of covenant (such as keeping open for
trade), landlord can deem the lease forfeit: property returns to them
- Once owed 7 days' rent (which could be many months hence if paid
quarterly in advance), landlord has right to impound and liquidate fixtures
and fittings to offset their losses, after some procedural safeguards.

But as SK53 says, eyeballs must be best.

Not a lawyer, just a geek who read this up as a charity trustee.
Corrections gladly received.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:07, SK53  wrote:

> I suspect the fixtures & fittings will be cleared out fairly pronto,
> although not the fascia signage. As the firm has been liquidated I presume
> all leases on retail property are now in default, and consequently null and
> void. Landlords will be anxious to get new tenants as quickly as possible,
> and are likely to clear the shops for that reason. (A certain amount of
> speculation on my part as I don't know what the actual legal situation with
> ownership of fixtures & fittings is in these circumstances). Ether way we
> can learn more by some on-the-ground surveys.
>
> Phones 4U went into administration in September 2014, and their shops were
> cleared out of fittings pretty rapidly, although they remained as visible
> 'ghosts'  on high streets for a long time afterwards.
>
> A nice refinement of the shop=X => shop=vacant;disused:shop=yes would be
> to only go from name=Y to old_name=Y when the signage disappears. Frederic
> Rodrigo talked about pedestrian navigation by landmark at SotM, and
> prominent closed shops (and also pubs) are often useful landmarks. However,
> I think this is still a luxury for the average mapper trying to keep
> somewhere up-to-date.
>
> Jerry
>
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 14:54, Chris Hill  wrote:
>
>> Thomas Cook shops are not vacant. They may not be open to the public
>> today, but they may well be reopened by a new owner in the future and that
>> may even be under the Thomas Cook brand if the administrator sells some or
>> all of them to another company. In the mean time they are still branded and
>> still a landmark of sorts.
>>
>> If a shop is emptied or reused by another firm then change that one
>> otherwise I think we should wait for a while to see what happens.
>>
>> cheers
>> Chris Hill (chillly)
>>
>> On 24/09/2019 14:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>>
>> I'm a fan of shop=vacant, old_name=Thomas Cook myself
>>
>> You could argue for not:name=Thomas Cook maybe
>>
>> On Tue, 24 Sep 2019, 13:34 Tadeusz Cantwell,  wrote:
>>
>>> I changed the three shops in N.I to disused;shop=travel-agent since I
>>> wasn't sure what the best practice was in this case. Not all of them had
>>> the wiki links etc. Any advice on a better way?
>>>
>>>
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[Talk-GB] Video of SotM talk about solar PV mapping

[Dan S]

Hi all

For anyone who would've liked to see it, here's a video of my talk at
State of the Map 2019, about the UK solar PV mapping:
https://media.ccc.de/v/sotm2019-1296-mapping-solar-panels-can-save-megatons-of-co2

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] Subject: Re: Thomas Cook shops

[SK53]

I suspect the fixtures & fittings will be cleared out fairly pronto,
although not the fascia signage. As the firm has been liquidated I presume
all leases on retail property are now in default, and consequently null and
void. Landlords will be anxious to get new tenants as quickly as possible,
and are likely to clear the shops for that reason. (A certain amount of
speculation on my part as I don't know what the actual legal situation with
ownership of fixtures & fittings is in these circumstances). Ether way we
can learn more by some on-the-ground surveys.

Phones 4U went into administration in September 2014, and their shops were
cleared out of fittings pretty rapidly, although they remained as visible
'ghosts'  on high streets for a long time afterwards.

A nice refinement of the shop=X => shop=vacant;disused:shop=yes would be to
only go from name=Y to old_name=Y when the signage disappears. Frederic
Rodrigo talked about pedestrian navigation by landmark at SotM, and
prominent closed shops (and also pubs) are often useful landmarks. However,
I think this is still a luxury for the average mapper trying to keep
somewhere up-to-date.

Jerry

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 14:54, Chris Hill  wrote:

> Thomas Cook shops are not vacant. They may not be open to the public
> today, but they may well be reopened by a new owner in the future and that
> may even be under the Thomas Cook brand if the administrator sells some or
> all of them to another company. In the mean time they are still branded and
> still a landmark of sorts.
>
> If a shop is emptied or reused by another firm then change that one
> otherwise I think we should wait for a while to see what happens.
>
> cheers
> Chris Hill (chillly)
>
> On 24/09/2019 14:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> I'm a fan of shop=vacant, old_name=Thomas Cook myself
>
> You could argue for not:name=Thomas Cook maybe
>
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2019, 13:34 Tadeusz Cantwell,  wrote:
>
>> I changed the three shops in N.I to disused;shop=travel-agent since I
>> wasn't sure what the best practice was in this case. Not all of them had
>> the wiki links etc. Any advice on a better way?
>>
>>
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