Re: [Talk-us] Short 'connector' roads -- _link or not?

2018-11-20 Thread Shawn K. Quinn 
On 11/20/18 16:23, Andrew wrote:
> The rule I've always followed is that it's the highest _link unless it's
> at an intersection with a named street, in which case the names roads
> just connect.
> 
> The only exception I think could make sense is if the /*only* /function
> of the connector is to connect to a service road–like in a
> right-in/right-out configuration– and U-turns aren't permitted. If the
> connector allows U-turns on a dual-carriage arterial, then it ought to
> be a link so it has the same priority in routing.

In the case of a median crossing (the third example in the original, and
the one I was commenting about earlier), I will make it a *_link instead
of service if it connects two service roads, so routing works as expected.

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Re: [Talk-us] Short 'connector' roads -- _link or not?

2018-11-20 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Hi,
> As I was creating more ‘unnamed roads’ challenges in MapRoulette, and spot
> checking them, I came across a number of cases like this one:
>
> https://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3313/task/6414594
>
> To my mind these need to be fixed, but I wanted to ask here first, so I
> can get the instructions right.
> Either such a segment is part of a 3 or 4 way intersection of higher class
> dual carriageway roads, in which case it should probably be named.
> Or as in this case, it is an extension of the service road, and it should
> be highway=service and remain unnamed like the service road itself.
> ..And I guess a third case is like
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288576287 , which should be a _link?
>

I tend to think of these as links.
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Re: [Talk-us] Short 'connector' roads -- _link or not?

2018-11-20 Thread Andrew 
The rule I've always followed is that it's the highest _link unless it's at an
intersection with a named street, in which case the names roads just
connect.

The only exception I think could make sense is if the *only *function of
the connector is to connect to a service road–like in a right-in/right-out
configuration– and U-turns aren't permitted. If the connector allows
U-turns on a dual-carriage arterial, then it ought to be a link so it has
the same priority in routing.

Thanks,

Andrew


On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 4:07 PM Martijn van Exel  Hi,
> As I was creating more ‘unnamed roads’ challenges in MapRoulette, and spot
> checking them, I came across a number of cases like this one:
>
> https://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3313/task/6414594
>
> To my mind these need to be fixed, but I wanted to ask here first, so I
> can get the instructions right.
> Either such a segment is part of a 3 or 4 way intersection of higher class
> dual carriageway roads, in which case it should probably be named.
> Or as in this case, it is an extension of the service road, and it should
> be highway=service and remain unnamed like the service road itself.
> ..And I guess a third case is like
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288576287 , which should be a _link?
>
> Advice welcome!
>
> Martijn
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Re: [Talk-us] Short 'connector' roads -- _link or not?

2018-11-20 Thread Shawn K. Quinn 
On 11/20/18 16:06, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi, 
> As I was creating more ‘unnamed roads’ challenges in MapRoulette, and spot 
> checking them, I came across a number of cases like this one:
> 
> https://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3313/task/6414594  
> 
> To my mind these need to be fixed, but I wanted to ask here first, so I can 
> get the instructions right.  
> Either such a segment is part of a 3 or 4 way intersection of higher class 
> dual carriageway roads, in which case it should probably be named. 
> Or as in this case, it is an extension of the service road, and it should be 
> highway=service and remain unnamed like the service road itself.
> ..And I guess a third case is like 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288576287 , which should be a _link?

I've been tagging those as *_link for years except on unclassified and
residential, which do not have a related *_link.

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[Talk-us] Short 'connector' roads -- _link or not?

2018-11-20 Thread Martijn van Exel 
Hi, 
As I was creating more ‘unnamed roads’ challenges in MapRoulette, and spot 
checking them, I came across a number of cases like this one:

https://maproulette.org/mr3/challenge/3313/task/6414594  

To my mind these need to be fixed, but I wanted to ask here first, so I can get 
the instructions right.  
Either such a segment is part of a 3 or 4 way intersection of higher class dual 
carriageway roads, in which case it should probably be named. 
Or as in this case, it is an extension of the service road, and it should be 
highway=service and remain unnamed like the service road itself.
..And I guess a third case is like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/288576287 
, which should be a _link?

Advice welcome!

Martijn
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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Clifford Snow 
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 9:44 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
>> It is worth noting that the current shape file available from USDA seems
>> to be more comprehensive than the forest service roads layer available:
>> https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=transportation
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the layer was created based on a filtered or older version of
>> this file. I don’t know who maintains it but it may be due for an update.
>>
>
> Martijn,
> I added the USFS roads as an overlay in JOSM sometime back. I'll compare
> it with
> https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=transportation
> and update the background if its more current.
>
> From a quick comparison between Nov 2018 and what's available in JOSM,
there is no discernible difference.  The JOSM version is using March 2018
data from the same source.


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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:27 PM Max Erickson  wrote:

> As other have mentioned, there are many numbered roads managed by the
> USFS. They range in development from closed, abandoned log roads to
> well maintained pavement. I map them using the FS prefix.
>
> For the general public one of the main uses is the publication of
> motor vehicle access conditions:
>
> https://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/ohv_maps.shtml
>
>
I have shaped shields for them. I work from road routes, rather than direct
tagging of the ways (I've discussed in the past why direct tagging of the
ways is NOT workable for the complex overlays of route networks in North
America.) The FS routes that I'm currently capable of rendering are not
quite consistently tagged. I recognize, equivalently, network=US:FS,
network=US:NFSR:*:NFH and network=US:NFSR:*:NFR. In both of the latter
cases, the * has the name of the national forest in question, which is on
the sign.

The shield template is
https://github.com/kennykb/osm-shields/blob/master/templates/US:NFSR.svg

For the ref=* tagging on ways, again I don't see quite a consistent system
yet. Over in Vermont east of me, I see ways tagged with ref=USFS 70, ref=FS
67 and ref=FR 224; all of these are the same network. Elsewhere in the
country, I also see FSR nnn, NFSR nnn, and probably others.  I'm continuing
to pursue rendering based on route=road, on the 'build it and they will
come' principle.

Many of these roads need unsigned_ref, since many of them aren't signed at
all (with any sort of directional signs, and often they lack hazard signs
as well).I wouldn't advise importing reference numbers without some sort of
verification that they are indeed bannered. (And yes, the Forest Service
will publish closures *by number* on unsigned roads. Go figure.)

The forest service roads range from two-lane hard-surfaced roads that can
support heavy truck traffic at 90 km/h (55 mi/h is a typical posted speed
limit on these) to rutted dirt tracks with far more than the usual quantity
of rocks and roots, requiring an off-road vehicle to navigate.

There are a lot of them.
http://kbk.is-a-geek.net/catskills/test4.html?la=35.9283=-81.8602=12
isn't atypical for the national forest road network. (Note that my renderer
does rendering in a style like Carto's if a road has ref=* but is not a
member of a road route - that's where the plain rectangular shields are
coming from.)
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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Clifford Snow 
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 9:44 AM Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> It is worth noting that the current shape file available from USDA seems
> to be more comprehensive than the forest service roads layer available:
> https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=transportation
>
>
> Perhaps the layer was created based on a filtered or older version of this
> file. I don’t know who maintains it but it may be due for an update.
>

Martijn,
I added the USFS roads as an overlay in JOSM sometime back. I'll compare it
with
https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=transportation
and update the background if its more current.

BTW - around here they are called forest service roads, aka logging roads,
and believe me we have thousands of them.

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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Martijn van Exel 
It is worth noting that the current shape file available from USDA seems to be 
more comprehensive than the forest service roads layer available: 
https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=transportation 
 

Perhaps the layer was created based on a filtered or older version of this 
file. I don’t know who maintains it but it may be due for an update.

Martijn

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:57 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> 
> Frederik,
> I don’t remember it being widely discussed / agreed upon.
> When I map these roads I include the FS number (just the number) as a ref, 
> since that is how they are signposted in the field. 
> https://dcasler.com/2011/06/16/owl-creek-pass-getting-there-from-ridgway/ 
>  
> has an example (very bottom image) but other variations of such a sign are 
> common as well.
> The printed maps I have include these numbers as well and generally they are 
> an important guidance instrument when navigating FS terrain.
> Martijn
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Frederik Ramm > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> apparently you have something in the US called "Forest Routes"
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Highway 
>> 
>> 
>> which even has its own kind of shield! (Yes I know, there are *many*
>> shields. I've followed the discussions!)
>> 
>> Is there some common understanding of how to map these, if at all? I've
>> looked around a bit and found some roads marked "ref=FS" but
>> these were few and far between.
>> 
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>> 
>> -- 
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Evin Fairchild 
Worth noting that most people just call them forest service roads. I've
never heard anyone call them "forest highways."

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 9:27 AM Max Erickson  As other have mentioned, there are many numbered roads managed by the
> USFS. They range in development from closed, abandoned log roads to
> well maintained pavement. I map them using the FS prefix.
>
> For the general public one of the main uses is the publication of
> motor vehicle access conditions:
>
> https://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/ohv_maps.shtml
>
>
> Max
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Max Erickson 
As other have mentioned, there are many numbered roads managed by the
USFS. They range in development from closed, abandoned log roads to
well maintained pavement. I map them using the FS prefix.

For the general public one of the main uses is the publication of
motor vehicle access conditions:

https://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/ohv_maps.shtml


Max

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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Martijn van Exel 
Frederik,
I don’t remember it being widely discussed / agreed upon.
When I map these roads I include the FS number (just the number) as a ref, 
since that is how they are signposted in the field. 
https://dcasler.com/2011/06/16/owl-creek-pass-getting-there-from-ridgway/ 
 has 
an example (very bottom image) but other variations of such a sign are common 
as well.
The printed maps I have include these numbers as well and generally they are an 
important guidance instrument when navigating FS terrain.
Martijn

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> apparently you have something in the US called "Forest Routes"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Highway
> 
> which even has its own kind of shield! (Yes I know, there are *many*
> shields. I've followed the discussions!)
> 
> Is there some common understanding of how to map these, if at all? I've
> looked around a bit and found some roads marked "ref=FS" but
> these were few and far between.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Roff, Thomas (FHWA) 
FrederiK:
The US Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture(USDA) and has 
quite an extensive network of all of their roads including logging trails.
In fact it is almost too much.
Here is a link to the Authority,  I hope it helps.

https://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/

Tom Roff-
HPMS/ ARNOLD Project Manager
 Federal Highway Administration

-Original Message-
From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:40 AM
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap 
Subject: [Talk-us] Forest Routes

Hi,

apparently you have something in the US called "Forest Routes"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Highway

which even has its own kind of shield! (Yes I know, there are *many* shields. 
I've followed the discussions!)

Is there some common understanding of how to map these, if at all? I've looked 
around a bit and found some roads marked "ref=FS" but these were few 
and far between.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[Talk-us] Forest Routes

2018-11-20 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

apparently you have something in the US called "Forest Routes"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Highway

which even has its own kind of shield! (Yes I know, there are *many*
shields. I've followed the discussions!)

Is there some common understanding of how to map these, if at all? I've
looked around a bit and found some roads marked "ref=FS" but
these were few and far between.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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