Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
Hi Ted, Ted Unangst wrote on Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:42:20PM -0500: On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 14:02, Ingo Schwarze wrote: I even considered switching the mandoc(1) default from -Tascii to -Tlocale in general, but forgot about it again. If you like the idea, that would be something to do after unlock; it might require explicitly giving the -Tascii option in some build system and similar contexts. I think -Tlocale might be a saner default than -Tascii nowadays. People who don't want UTF-8 shouldn't have it in their LC_CTYPE, and it's hard to see why people who do want it and have it in their LC_CTYPE should be forced to give -Tlocale or something similar to each and every utility they call. Inclined to agree, but I wanted to try the conservative approach for this release. I fully understand that, and i'm not strongly opposed to your less intrusive suggestion, not even to putting it in before the release. However there are two (weak) reasons why you might decide to wait even with this less intrusive step, anyway. 1. I asked around a bit and Thomas Klausner (NetBSD) mentioned that both groff and mandoc format bare, unescaped ASCII minus characters (`-', 0x2d) found in the input stream as the three-byte UTF-8 sequence 0xe2 0x80 0x93 in the output stream when running with -Tutf8 or with -Tlocale and LC_CTYPE=*_*.UTF-8. That can be annoying when trying to copy and paste code examples from formatted manual pages. Maybe we should not rush this in but allow more time to decide whether we dislike that quick and maybe devise mitigations. More similar issues might hide under some rocks in the vicinity. 2. If we hope to switch the mandoc default anyway, switching /etc/man.conf back and forth in the process maybe just gratuitiously exercises sysmerge(8) on people's machines. I don't know how many places the output of mandoc is saved for later. Few, probably, because mandoc(1) is fast enough that we run in on demand whenever possible and usually avoid preformatting anything during builds, or where we do preformat, we use groff for that, anyway. But even missing one single instance that is hiding somewhere would just be pointless disruption in a release. Yours, Ingo
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 03:11:07PM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
Few, probably, because mandoc(1) is fast enough that we run in on
demand whenever possible and usually avoid preformatting anything
during builds, or where we do preformat, we use groff for that, anyway.
But even missing one single instance that is hiding somewhere
would just be pointless disruption in a release.
We can try specifically poisoning mandoc in ports land, so that you would
see whenever it's invoked.
Don't remember if you're familiar with that, but it's fairly trivial to do:
the ports tree runs all the builds with PATH starting with
${WRKDIR}/bin
you can poison mandoc very easily around line 2477 of bsd.port.mk.
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 22:19, Ingo Schwarze wrote: Ingo Schwarze wrote on Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 03:11:07PM +0100: 1. I asked around a bit and Thomas Klausner (NetBSD) mentioned that both groff and mandoc format bare, unescaped ASCII minus characters (`-', 0x2d) found in the input stream as the three-byte UTF-8 sequence 0xe2 0x80 0x93 in the output stream when running with -Tutf8 or with -Tlocale and LC_CTYPE=*_*.UTF-8. Dmitrij D. Czarkoff just pointed out to me in private mail that this isn't true at all. I misunderstood what Thomas said. Damn. I was going to count that as feature to teach people to not blindly copy and paste samples.
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 09:22:04PM -0500, Ted Unangst wrote:
About 20 years after the invention of utf-8, I've decided to see what
all the fuss is about and experiment with uxterm and whatnot.
Naturally, this means I want to see sweet fancy quotes in all my man
pages instead of the lame ``fake'' quotes. In order to convince mandoc
to give me what I want, however, requires a command line option. But
what about all those old school ascii only terminals I still sometimes
use?
mandoc fortunately has an option -Tlocale, which will pick between
ascii and utf8 based on environment. Perfect! Let's use it.
Tested to work as expected in uxterm. Tested to change nothing in a
regular xterm by default (no LC_CTYPE set).
I don't see any problem from the locale side, so OK with me.
But I cannot speak for the man side of things.
Index: man.conf
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/man.conf,v
retrieving revision 1.18
diff -u -p -r1.18 man.conf
--- man.conf 13 Jul 2013 20:21:52 - 1.18
+++ man.conf 14 Feb 2014 02:14:29 -
@@ -16,15 +16,15 @@ _subdir {cat,man}1 {cat,man}8 {cat,man}
_suffix .0
_build .0.Z/usr/bin/zcat %s
_build .0.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s
-_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
+_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
# Sections and their directories.
# All paths ending in '/' are the equivalent of entries specifying that
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: mandoc fortunately has an option -Tlocale, which will pick between ascii and utf8 based on environment. Perfect! Let's use it. Tested to work as expected in uxterm. Tested to change nothing in a regular xterm by default (no LC_CTYPE set). I've been using this exact man.conf (with LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8) since December 2012. It would be nice to have as the default. OK here...
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
Hi Ted,
Ted Unangst wrote on Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 09:22:04PM -0500:
About 20 years after the invention of utf-8, I've decided to see what
all the fuss is about and experiment with uxterm and whatnot.
Naturally, this means I want to see sweet fancy quotes in all my man
pages instead of the lame ``fake'' quotes. In order to convince mandoc
to give me what I want, however, requires a command line option. But
what about all those old school ascii only terminals I still sometimes
use?
mandoc fortunately has an option -Tlocale, which will pick between
ascii and utf8 based on environment. Perfect! Let's use it.
Tested to work as expected in uxterm. Tested to change nothing in a
regular xterm by default (no LC_CTYPE set).
Even though i don't use it, i'm not opposed to your patch.
I think it makes sense.
I even considered switching the mandoc(1) default from -Tascii to
-Tlocale in general, but forgot about it again. If you like the
idea, that would be something to do after unlock; it might require
explicitly giving the -Tascii option in some build system and similar
contexts.
I think -Tlocale might be a saner default than -Tascii nowadays.
People who don't want UTF-8 shouldn't have it in their LC_CTYPE,
and it's hard to see why people who do want it and have it in their
LC_CTYPE should be forced to give -Tlocale or something similar
to each and every utility they call.
What do you think?
Ingo
Index: man.conf
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/man.conf,v
retrieving revision 1.18
diff -u -p -r1.18 man.conf
--- man.conf 13 Jul 2013 20:21:52 - 1.18
+++ man.conf 14 Feb 2014 02:14:29 -
@@ -16,15 +16,15 @@ _subdir {cat,man}1 {cat,man}8 {cat,man}
_suffix .0
_build .0.Z/usr/bin/zcat %s
_build .0.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s
-_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
+_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
+_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-Tlocale
# Sections and their directories.
# All paths ending in '/' are the equivalent of entries specifying that
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On 2014-02-14, Ingo Schwarze schwa...@usta.de wrote: I even considered switching the mandoc(1) default from -Tascii to -Tlocale in general, but forgot about it again. If you like the idea, that would be something to do after unlock; I like that, but... it might require explicitly giving the -Tascii option in some build system and similar contexts. ... we have to make sure that when mandoc is run at build time, the output doesn't depend on the user's locale. -- Christian naddy Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Re: man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 14:02, Ingo Schwarze wrote: I even considered switching the mandoc(1) default from -Tascii to -Tlocale in general, but forgot about it again. If you like the idea, that would be something to do after unlock; it might require explicitly giving the -Tascii option in some build system and similar contexts. I think -Tlocale might be a saner default than -Tascii nowadays. People who don't want UTF-8 shouldn't have it in their LC_CTYPE, and it's hard to see why people who do want it and have it in their LC_CTYPE should be forced to give -Tlocale or something similar to each and every utility they call. Inclined to agree, but I wanted to try the conservative approach for this release. I don't know how many places the output of mandoc is saved for later.
man.conf mandoc -Tlocale
About 20 years after the invention of utf-8, I've decided to see what
all the fuss is about and experiment with uxterm and whatnot.
Naturally, this means I want to see sweet fancy quotes in all my man
pages instead of the lame ``fake'' quotes. In order to convince mandoc
to give me what I want, however, requires a command line option. But
what about all those old school ascii only terminals I still sometimes
use?
mandoc fortunately has an option -Tlocale, which will pick between
ascii and utf8 based on environment. Perfect! Let's use it.
Tested to work as expected in uxterm. Tested to change nothing in a
regular xterm by default (no LC_CTYPE set).
Index: man.conf
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/etc/man.conf,v
retrieving revision 1.18
diff -u -p -r1.18 man.conf
--- man.conf13 Jul 2013 20:21:52 - 1.18
+++ man.conf14 Feb 2014 02:14:29 -
@@ -16,15 +16,15 @@ _subdir {cat,man}1 {cat,man}8 {cat,man}
_suffix.0
_build .0.Z/usr/bin/zcat %s
_build .0.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s
-_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc %s
-_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
-_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc
+_build .[1-9n] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9n].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
+_build .[1-9n].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z] /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .[1-9][a-z].Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
+_build .[1-9][a-z].gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
+_build .tbl/usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale %s
+_build .tbl.Z /usr/bin/zcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
+_build .tbl.gz /usr/bin/gzcat %s | /usr/bin/mandoc -Tlocale
# Sections and their directories.
# All paths ending in '/' are the equivalent of entries specifying that
