Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dieter]

It is amazing, what PMX can do.

The most important use cases for 128th notes seem alredy  to be covered 
by PMX.


And I wonder whether there exists any piece of music, which contains a 
combination of lone 128th notes and rests.


It might be difficult to identify all these special case in the MusicXML 
file. But XML2PMX  will always produce a PMX-file as result , which you 
then can manipulate.


Regards,
Dieter

Am 15.12.2016 um 16:35 schrieb Don Simons:

I wrote


Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to trick
PMX into doing g6.g.

I was wrong, there is a way: g3x2dn g

So we have found ways to get PMX to produce most flavors of 128th notes, as
long as it's inside a beam (together with at least one other note).

To progress any further than this, it's not clear whether it would take more
programming effort on Dieter's part in XML2PMX to make XML2PMX
128th-note-capable within this restriction, or on my part in PMX to extend
"normal" input notation using 5 or 7 for a 128th, and then either (1)
internally take advantage of the xtuplet tricks, or (2) go all the way,
which would involve completely revamping PMX's time accounting. To be
realistic, there's no chance at all I'd go route (2), and only a tiny chance
for route (1).

--Don



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Tel.: 06151 / 360 82 72

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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Don Simons]

I wrote

> Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to trick
> PMX into doing g6.g.

I was wrong, there is a way: g3x2dn g

So we have found ways to get PMX to produce most flavors of 128th notes, as
long as it's inside a beam (together with at least one other note).

To progress any further than this, it's not clear whether it would take more
programming effort on Dieter's part in XML2PMX to make XML2PMX
128th-note-capable within this restriction, or on my part in PMX to extend
"normal" input notation using 5 or 7 for a 128th, and then either (1)
internally take advantage of the xtuplet tricks, or (2) go all the way,
which would involve completely revamping PMX's time accounting. To be
realistic, there's no chance at all I'd go route (2), and only a tiny chance
for route (1).

--Don 



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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Don Simons]

Doing these empirical experiments without digging into the code is kind of
fun. I started wondering whether PMX could do the 16-tuplet in the last bar
of Dieter's example. (I had a vague recollection there was a limit on the
number of notes in an xtuplet...and there is, but it's 24 notes) Anyhow, the
16 notes take up 1/2 beat so are effectively 128th notes. When I first tried
it I mistakenly spread them over 1/4 of a beat (g1x16 ...), making them
effectively 256th notes, and believe it or not, PMX didn't choke but
produced a beamed qroup with SIX beams! I may not be able to resist seeing
if I can carry this any further.

--Don



> -Original Message-
> From: TeX-Music [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Don
> Simons
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 9:02 AM
> To: 'Werner Icking Music Archive' <tex-music@tug.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?
> 
> Dieter, your Beethoven example is an interesting challenge. Without
> worrying about the internal hows and whys, I believe PMX as is could
handle
> the entire thing straightforwardly. That's because the only notes with 5
> beams (in the 4th and last bars) are xtuplets, and there are no single
notes
> with
> 5 flags. However, there is one unrelated thing that PMX cannot do (without
> inline TeX): reduce from 4 to 3 beams and back up to 4 in a single beamed
> group. You can to go down to 1 beam and back up, e.g. [ a3 t g6 a ][ b a g
f ].
> 
> One curious thing I noticed in the example: In the first beat of the last
bar,
> the last quarter beat has 6 notes and they're printed with 4 beams.  In
the
> third beat, third quarter of the beat, there are also 6 notes but now only
3
> beams. PMX's default is 4 beams for this case, but you could get 3 with
e.g.
> [m3 g1x6 g g g g g ]
> 
> --Don
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: TeX-Music [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Dieter
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:34 AM
> > To: tex-music@tug.org
> > Subject: Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?
> >
> > @ Dirk: I wonder whether you regard the Beethoven Piano Sonata in c-
> > minor, op. 13 as repertoire.
> > @ Don: I do not have the faintest idea, why and how you produce the
> > 128th in the sample. In case you change your mind and find some time
> > for
> analyzing
> > the problem, I would offer my time to help in the realization.
> >
> > It seems that the Lilypond people are quite active and that we are
> > losing market to them.
> >
> > Regards, Dieter
> >
> > Am 14.12.2016 um 09:37 schrieb Dirk Laurie:
> > > 2016-12-14 6:33 GMT+02:00 Don Simons <dsim...@roadrunner.com>:
> > >
> > >> This is not an unreasonable request.
> > > I'll agree with that assessment as soon as someone can point me to a
> > > composition regarded as more or less repertoire for a concert
> > > pianist and containing 128th notes. Liszt, Scriabin, Rachmaninov,
anyone?
> > >
> > >> So without completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th notes
> > >> are not going to happen.
> > > PMX is always going to have to stop somewhere, and stopping at 64th
> > > notes is "not unreasonable".
> > >
> > > M-Tx, too, does timekeeping in units of 1/64 note. Without someone
> > > else taking over maintenance of the source code, basic 128th notes
> > > are not going to happen.
> > >
> > > Dirk
> > > ---
> > > TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
> > > If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
> > > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 
> > Dr. Dieter Glötzel
> > Im Rosengarten 27
> > 64367 Mühltal
> > Tel.: 06151 / 360 82 72
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
> If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
> http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music


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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Don Simons]

Dieter, your Beethoven example is an interesting challenge. Without worrying
about the internal hows and whys, I believe PMX as is could handle the
entire thing straightforwardly. That's because the only notes with 5 beams
(in the 4th and last bars) are xtuplets, and there are no single notes with
5 flags. However, there is one unrelated thing that PMX cannot do (without
inline TeX): reduce from 4 to 3 beams and back up to 4 in a single beamed
group. You can to go down to 1 beam and back up, e.g. [ a3 t g6 a ][ b a g f
].

One curious thing I noticed in the example: In the first beat of the last
bar, the last quarter beat has 6 notes and they're printed with 4 beams.  In
the third beat, third quarter of the beat, there are also 6 notes but now
only 3 beams. PMX's default is 4 beams for this case, but you could get 3
with e.g. [m3 g1x6 g g g g g ]

--Don

> -Original Message-
> From: TeX-Music [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Dieter
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:34 AM
> To: tex-music@tug.org
> Subject: Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?
> 
> @ Dirk: I wonder whether you regard the Beethoven Piano Sonata in c-
> minor, op. 13 as repertoire.
> @ Don: I do not have the faintest idea, why and how you produce the 128th
> in the sample. In case you change your mind and find some time for
analyzing
> the problem, I would offer my time to help in the realization.
> 
> It seems that the Lilypond people are quite active and that we are losing
> market to them.
> 
> Regards, Dieter
> 
> Am 14.12.2016 um 09:37 schrieb Dirk Laurie:
> > 2016-12-14 6:33 GMT+02:00 Don Simons <dsim...@roadrunner.com>:
> >
> >> This is not an unreasonable request.
> > I'll agree with that assessment as soon as someone can point me to a
> > composition regarded as more or less repertoire for a concert pianist
> > and containing 128th notes. Liszt, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, anyone?
> >
> >> So without completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th notes
> >> are not going to happen.
> > PMX is always going to have to stop somewhere, and stopping at 64th
> > notes is "not unreasonable".
> >
> > M-Tx, too, does timekeeping in units of 1/64 note. Without someone
> > else taking over maintenance of the source code, basic 128th notes are
> > not going to happen.
> >
> > Dirk
> > ---
> > TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
> > If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
> > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Dr. Dieter Glötzel
> Im Rosengarten 27
> 64367 Mühltal
> Tel.: 06151 / 360 82 72



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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dirk Laurie]

2016-12-14 12:33 GMT+02:00 Dieter :

> @ Dirk: I wonder whether you regard the Beethoven Piano Sonata in c-minor,
> op. 13 as repertoire.

My mother used to play it (only the Andante Cantabile though).

> It seems that the Lilypond people are quite active and that we
> are losing market to them.

@Dilbert

Best wishes
Dirk
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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dieter]

@ Dirk: I wonder whether you regard the Beethoven Piano Sonata in 
c-minor, op. 13 as repertoire.
@ Don: I do not have the faintest idea, why and how you produce the 
128th in the sample. In case you change your mind and find some time for 
analyzing the problem, I would offer my time to help in the realization.


It seems that the Lilypond people are quite active and that we are 
losing market to them.


Regards, Dieter

Am 14.12.2016 um 09:37 schrieb Dirk Laurie:

2016-12-14 6:33 GMT+02:00 Don Simons :


This is not an unreasonable request.

I'll agree with that assessment as soon as someone can
point me to a composition regarded as more or less repertoire
for a concert pianist and containing 128th notes. Liszt, Scriabin,
Rachmaninov, anyone?


So without completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th
notes are not going to happen.

PMX is always going to have to stop somewhere, and stopping
at 64th notes is "not unreasonable".

M-Tx, too, does timekeeping in units of 1/64 note. Without someone
else taking over maintenance of the source code, basic 128th notes
are not going to happen.

Dirk
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--

Dr. Dieter Glötzel
Im Rosengarten 27
64367 Mühltal
Tel.: 06151 / 360 82 72



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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dirk Laurie]

2016-12-14 6:33 GMT+02:00 Don Simons :

> This is not an unreasonable request.

I'll agree with that assessment as soon as someone can
point me to a composition regarded as more or less repertoire
for a concert pianist and containing 128th notes. Liszt, Scriabin,
Rachmaninov, anyone?

> So without completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th
> notes are not going to happen.

PMX is always going to have to stop somewhere, and stopping
at 64th notes is "not unreasonable".

M-Tx, too, does timekeeping in units of 1/64 note. Without someone
else taking over maintenance of the source code, basic 128th notes
are not going to happen.

Dirk
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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dieter]

Hi Don,

your approach to use an integer for timing is similar to what MusicXML 
does.


But they are using an integer parameter "dimensions", which signifies 
the duration of a quarter note.


Everything else is being calculated relative to this value. It can be 
chosen according to needs (e.g. when you have triplets)
and can even be modified during the music piece. In XML2PMX  the 
"dimensions"-parameter is unchangeable, but may vary with the instrument.


Regards,
Dieter

Am 14.12.2016 um 05:33 schrieb Don Simons:

This is not an unreasonable request. But it would be very challenging, for
reasons that go beyond my fading memory of deep, dark details about how I
implemented time-handling in PMX. I had originally set up an internal time
scale proportional to the duration of each note. I represented that scaled
time with an integer, and (for reasons I cannot precisely recall) decided
the minimum possible value (1) would correspond to a 64th note. So without
completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th notes are not going to
happen.

Despite that, it does turn out that there's at least one way to get 128th
notes if they come in pairs: 64th note duplets are allowed. So check this
out:

===

1 1 2 4 2 4 0 0
0 2 20 0

t
.\
Abep
g44 g8 g1 g3 g6 gx2 g /
g44 [ g8 g1 g3 g6 gx2 g ] /

===

The forced beaming would be necessary even for longer duration but still
beamable xtuplets embedded in beamed groups, so I won't call that an error.
And you could get rid of the printed number by using the "n" option after
"x2". And this also works with groups of 4 or more notes, e.g., g3x4 g g g
and gd3x6 g g g g g  work. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to
trick PMX into doing g6.g.

--Don Simons


-Original Message-
From: TeX-Music [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Dieter
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:43 AM
To: Werner Icking Music Archive 
Subject: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

Hi ,

I do know that 128th notes are relatively rare.

But I am trying to run an inofficial  testsuite on XML2PMX:



http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/input/regression/musicxml/collated-files.html

For completeness sake it would be nice to have these.

I guess,there is a way with MusiXTeX, but maybe the implementation in PMX
as a one digit code might be difficult, although indices "5" and "7" are

still

available.

Regards, Dieter

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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Don Simons]

This is not an unreasonable request. But it would be very challenging, for
reasons that go beyond my fading memory of deep, dark details about how I
implemented time-handling in PMX. I had originally set up an internal time
scale proportional to the duration of each note. I represented that scaled
time with an integer, and (for reasons I cannot precisely recall) decided
the minimum possible value (1) would correspond to a 64th note. So without
completely revamping the timekeeping, basic 128th notes are not going to
happen.

Despite that, it does turn out that there's at least one way to get 128th
notes if they come in pairs: 64th note duplets are allowed. So check this
out:

===

1 1 2 4 2 4 0 0
0 2 20 0

t
.\
Abep
g44 g8 g1 g3 g6 gx2 g /
g44 [ g8 g1 g3 g6 gx2 g ] /

===

The forced beaming would be necessary even for longer duration but still
beamable xtuplets embedded in beamed groups, so I won't call that an error.
And you could get rid of the printed number by using the "n" option after
"x2". And this also works with groups of 4 or more notes, e.g., g3x4 g g g
and gd3x6 g g g g g  work. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to
trick PMX into doing g6.g. 

--Don Simons

> -Original Message-
> From: TeX-Music [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of Dieter
> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:43 AM
> To: Werner Icking Music Archive 
> Subject: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?
> 
> Hi ,
> 
> I do know that 128th notes are relatively rare.
> 
> But I am trying to run an inofficial  testsuite on XML2PMX:
> 
>
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/input/regression/musicxml/collated-files.html
> 
> For completeness sake it would be nice to have these.
> 
> I guess,there is a way with MusiXTeX, but maybe the implementation in PMX
> as a one digit code might be difficult, although indices "5" and "7" are
still
> available.
> 
> Regards, Dieter
> 
> ---
> TeX-music@tug.org mailing list
> If you want to unsubscribe or look at the archives, go to
> http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music

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Re: [Tex-music] 128th notes and rests in PMX?

[Dirk Laurie]

2016-12-13 19:43 GMT+02:00 Dieter :

> I guess,there is a way with MusiXTeX, but maybe the implementation in PMX as
> a one digit code might be difficult,
> although indices "5" and "7" are still available.

"7" has some mnemonic value, since 128 = 2⁷.

But it's not only syntax.  "b6.a" is valid PMX syntax but the implied 128th note
causes the length calculation to fail.

Dirk

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