Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Joe, On 11/14/2014 03:56 AM, Joe Leikhim wrote: Looks like a clock to divide by 1000 and generate 59.99 Hz A computer video card or monitor? Some piece of Video gear? You would have 60/1.001 in that case. This is more 60/1.000124 or so. Someone tries to do 60 kHz but is 125 ppm south. A UPS? A solar system power inverter? A generator control panel? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] My NTGS50AA failed
Hi I have a Bolt that has a similar stuck EFC. In my case it’s not the OCXO either. There is some sort of failure on the inputs to the summing op amp that drives the output to the high end of the DAC’s range. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:06 PM, EB4APL eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es wrote: Hello Nigel, Finally I got enough courage and removed the OCXO, you know what kind of task it is.. Fortunately I didn't spoiled the PCB so I'll install 2 smb connectors in the provided places, I don't want to return there if I need to change the oscillator. Well, the oscillator is ok, this is in some way bad news because the oscillator is easily replaceable, and the EFC voltage remains stuck on 5.02 V. Now I'll test the quad op-amp and the related parts. If they are ok the problem is in the Xilinx chip, something that cannot be replaced unless I get parts donor, even that way is very problematic since it is a 80 pin chip. I'll continue posting my findings. Best regards, Ignacio El 13/11/2014 a las 12:03, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I'm sure removing the oscillator would make your faultfinding much more straightforward. When I removed mine I started out quite convinced I wouldn't be able to do it, even with the solder mostly removed from around the pins they were obviously quite a tight fit and all I had available at that time was a plunger type solder sucker and desoldering braid, as the bits on my old Pace desoldering kit were well past their best. The answer basically was lots of braid, lots of patience, and resisting like crazy any temptation to pull against a hole that wasn't fully released, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it that way again in a hurry. The desoldering gun I use now would make it easier but the holes are really a bit small for those oscillator pins. The good news though is that the connectors are there as a back up and fitting them definitely makes it more versatile. I had considered repeating the performance on another NTGS50AA and/or NTBW50AA, I really think I should but so far haven't found the courage:-) I think previous checks for 1PPS outputs might have been limited to the external connectors but it would make sense if it was available somewhere on the PCB, I'll try to get one powered up later and check your findings, if I can find a bit of space that us amongst the usual chaos! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 13/11/2014 01:11:30 GMT Standard Time, eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es writes: Hi Nigel, Thank you for the suggestions, I was trying to avoid the OCXO removal but I think that now it must be done. I was also playing with the idea of populating the connectors so an OCXO exchange could be easily made, this makes possible to try various oscillators. Meanwhile I has been probing and measuring a lot of points and by chance I found a very interesting thing: Probing TP33 (which is close to the Trimble chip (U2) and directly connected to pin 76) there is a 1PPS, 10 us wide signal. I've checked it and appears to be synchronous with the 1/2 PPS output so maybe it can be routed to an output, probably I'll replace the 1/2 PPS with it, using the existing drive circuit and connector since it is very straightforward. My only concern is if this signal only is there during the anomalous condition that I have now, I have to retest it after fixing it. I had asked several times if anybody had located a 1PPS signal on these units, but the responses were negative and I had not probed systematically the board before. Also I'm taking notes of the signals found and I'll try to make a partial schematic at least with the EFC circuitry. When I fix it I'll clean the notes and figures and I'll upload it to some place. Best regards, Ignacio El 12/11/2014 a las 11:47, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I have removed a faulty oscillator from one of these, not one of my more relaxed moments and quite amazed when the board emerged totally undamaged, but proof at least that it can be done:-) With the oscillator removed there's access to two sets of connector pads that will either accept SMA or SMB connectors and after conducting tests on the original oscillator via flying leads just soldered to the board I decided not to fit a replacement to the board after all but to fit a couple of SMB connectors to make the setup more versatile, and to avoid the possibility of having to remove another oscillator in the future:-) Another advantage of these pads is that if the board does get damaged removing the oscillator they can still be used as an alternative. The connectors take the 10MHz from the oscillator into the board and the EFC control voltage out from the board to the oscillator, now there's a surprise:-), and oscillator power can be completely external if required. From this
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Hi That OCXO is doing very well. If you look at the plot, it’s doing a few LSB’s on the DAC over the time period. That’s good performance. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:17 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. lucent ti left screen.GIFLucent ti right side.GIF___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Division Circuit
List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lucent GPDSO TTI ps graph and efc is this sick?
The EFC is probably not sick, it is still in the middle of it's range, and has moved only a small amount. I would let it run for another week and see if it starts to head back down. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had to run my z3816a for several weeks before it settled down. After that period of time, my Z3816 settled into the EFC range of 581240-581280 and a predicted uncertainty in the 100-200ns/24 range - but it took a month to get there) Important note: it seems that the Lucent *reports the PPS TI error differently* than previous units. This will make comparisons between this unit and the older unit difficult. Another time-nut sent me the data file from Z38xx attached to a Lucent GPSDO, and I noticed that most of the values TI values had only zeros to the right of the decimal point. (almost all but not all). This made the data look like the TI jumped around in discrete steps of 1.0 * 10e-8 . That is the reason you see the 'strata' and 'plateaus' in your plot that you don't see in previous z3801,3805,3816 plots. The peaks in the +/- 40 ns range are the same as on my Z3816a (which uses the same GPS receiver). The data file also had quite a few 0.0 TI values, which bounced then to 1.0e-8 etc. So somewhere in the data paths, someone is doing the equivalent of a floor(TI error). So if you calculate averages on this kind of data and compare it to averages or SD on previous units, the results will be misleading. It's possible that the program Z38xx is incorrectly parsing these values and 'stripping the digits to the right' performing a floor(TI). I can't tell because I only have the data after Z38xx parsed it. Somebody who has one of these units and Z38xx could open the debug screen and capture it to a file and see if the '1 PPS to TI ns relative to GPS has zeros to the right of the decimal point most of the time, or the response to the :PTIM:TINT? is 'stepping' as I described above. BTW - what do you see as the predicted uncertainty. Regards Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 65
Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle Hello, I have a printout / .pdf file / about this article. Please contact me off lone the I will send as an attached file. Rgds Ernie. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-request time-nuts-requ...@febo.com To: time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thu, Nov 13, 2014 2:13 am Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 65 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (johncr...@aol.com) 2. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (Dave M) 3. Re: SRS TSD12 (Neil Schroeder) 4. Re: 10 MHz OCXO recommendations (Neil Schroeder) 5. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (Don Latham) 6. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (Oz-in-DFW) 7. Re: Divide by five (Poul-Henning Kamp) 8. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article (Charles Steinmetz) 9. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article (Brian, WA1ZMS) 10. Re: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system (Bob Camp) 11. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (Dave Daniel) 12. Bypass Capacitor Kit Prices (Perry Sandeen) 13. Lucent GPSDO comments (Perry Sandeen) 14. Electrolytic Capacitor Redux (Perry Sandeen) 15. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article (paul swed) 16. Re: Lucent GPSDO comments (Bob Camp) 17. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle (Alan Melia) 18. Re: Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article (Dave M) -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Hi It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
In message 0b078d42-2bf0-48ae-a6e6-2399ff308...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes: Hi It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. Vertical retrace in NTSC ? at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPDSO TTI ps graph and efc is this sick?
Hi Need to drink my coffee first and type messages second. The Time is doing a “LSB” change of some sort. It’s not sick, there’s either a problem with the string or something like that. The EFC is not moving at an alarming rate based on the plot. Simple things to do: Unplug the software and fire up a terminal program. Run it into the Diag port just like the other stuff. Set it to 9600 8:N:1 and type the following: *IDN? that should give you a string identifying the unit properly and show that things are hooked up right. :SYSTEM:STATUS? That will show you a mega screen of everything that’s going on.The screen includes the time offset and predicted holdover numbers. :DIAG:ROSC:EFC? That will show you the EFC voltage in percent of range. It runs over a +/- 100% range. Running things this way for a bit will let you eliminate any software issues from the mix. If things still look odd, do a: :DIAG:LOG:READ:ALL? That will show you any alarm outputs or odd things going thump in the night. Bob On Nov 14, 2014, at 7:13 AM, ed briggs edbri...@outlook.com wrote: The EFC is probably not sick, it is still in the middle of it's range, and has moved only a small amount. I would let it run for another week and see if it starts to head back down. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had to run my z3816a for several weeks before it settled down. After that period of time, my Z3816 settled into the EFC range of 581240-581280 and a predicted uncertainty in the 100-200ns/24 range - but it took a month to get there) Important note: it seems that the Lucent *reports the PPS TI error differently* than previous units. This will make comparisons between this unit and the older unit difficult. Another time-nut sent me the data file from Z38xx attached to a Lucent GPSDO, and I noticed that most of the values TI values had only zeros to the right of the decimal point. (almost all but not all). This made the data look like the TI jumped around in discrete steps of 1.0 * 10e-8 . That is the reason you see the 'strata' and 'plateaus' in your plot that you don't see in previous z3801,3805,3816 plots. The peaks in the +/- 40 ns range are the same as on my Z3816a (which uses the same GPS receiver). The data file also had quite a few 0.0 TI values, which bounced then to 1.0e-8 etc. So somewhere in the data paths, someone is doing the equivalent of a floor(TI error). So if you calculate averages on this kind of data and compare it to averages or SD on previous units, the results will be misleading. It's possible that the program Z38xx is incorrectly parsing these values and 'stripping the digits to the right' performing a floor(TI). I can't tell because I only have the data after Z38xx parsed it. Somebody who has one of these units and Z38xx could open the debug screen and capture it to a file and see if the '1 PPS to TI ns relative to GPS has zeros to the right of the decimal point most of the time, or the response to the :PTIM:TINT? is 'stepping' as I described above. BTW - what do you see as the predicted uncertainty. Regards Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
On 11/14/14, 4:28 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The question kind of is: Is it really supposed to be 60kHz and slightly off frequency? Or is it deliberately at that frequency because it's a multiple/submultimple of something useful? It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. 59.94 * 1000.87... is it a horizontal line/clock frequency in a display of some sort? It's also 3.579545MHz/59.4 (i.e. pretty close to color burst divided by 60) Here on Time-Nuts, though, we know that it is ancient aliens who have landed on top of a tall tepui in Venezuela near Angel Falls to help Nikola Tesla in his secret lair. Or maybe it's the Sedona hum? The real question is what is this strange signal's ADEV? Is it really, really accurate? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
OK everyone. I am sorry I left my 60 Khz transmitter on in Boston. Good to see its getting out to California. The antenna is a 90 foot tower. I figured since the d-psk-r's been a long experiment I would just replace wwvb with a constant phase no modulation Cs driven signal. Why fix the problem? :-) Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 11/14/14, 4:28 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The question kind of is: Is it really supposed to be 60kHz and slightly off frequency? Or is it deliberately at that frequency because it's a multiple/submultimple of something useful? It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. 59.94 * 1000.87... is it a horizontal line/clock frequency in a display of some sort? It's also 3.579545MHz/59.4 (i.e. pretty close to color burst divided by 60) Here on Time-Nuts, though, we know that it is ancient aliens who have landed on top of a tall tepui in Venezuela near Angel Falls to help Nikola Tesla in his secret lair. Or maybe it's the Sedona hum? The real question is what is this strange signal's ADEV? Is it really, really accurate? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Thanks everyone. My concern is did I need to reach out and get an exchange before the 30 days is up. I sense ASI the vendor is actually a pretty good company and will do the right thing. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That OCXO is doing very well. If you look at the plot, it’s doing a few LSB’s on the DAC over the time period. That’s good performance. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:17 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. lucent ti left screen.GIFLucent ti right side.GIF___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Hi The people selling them do indeed stand behind the product. My only concern is making sure there really is a problem before something gets swapped out. The best thing (by far) is to get a second unit and compare their outputs. Bob On Nov 14, 2014, at 9:17 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks everyone. My concern is did I need to reach out and get an exchange before the 30 days is up. I sense ASI the vendor is actually a pretty good company and will do the right thing. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That OCXO is doing very well. If you look at the plot, it’s doing a few LSB’s on the DAC over the time period. That’s good performance. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:17 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don’t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can’t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn’t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn’t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don’t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob’s point about getting the GPSDO’s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don’t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. lucent ti left screen.GIFLucent ti right side.GIF___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Article
Luciano, I will put this in OrCAD/CADENCE PSPICE over the weekend and see what it looks like. -George On 11/14/2014 02:53 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: George, you can replace the input transformer with the mini-circuits model T2-613-1-KK81 or T662-KK81 for under 2 Dollars. The inductors L1 and L3 are standards value you can find smd or standard on ebay. About L4 you can put in place a standard 4.7uH value increasing the series capacitor for the 5MHz notching.The 3.18uH is critical because it has the double function of low pass filter and impedance adapter, so I suggest to made it as described or using a smaller core. Luciano On Thu 13/11/14 3:30 PM , xaos x...@darksmile.net wrote: Luciano, This looks very nice. However, the inductors are custom made. It would be nice to have a off the shelf parts solution so it can be made easily. Any ideas ? -George, N2FGX On 11/13/2014 08:39 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: Hi all, I can suggest a different solution I have tested to have some important improvement. First, the lower phase shift sensitivity with the use of a low pass filter in conjunction with two notch filters instead the high Q band pass filter, second the unity gain to avoid a 13/20 dB amplifier to restore the original power level. You can find in the link all the test we have done. http://www.timeok.it/files/high_performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf [1] I hope this can hep. Luciano www.timeok.it [2] On Thu 13/11/14 10:15 AM , Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote: We are using Wenzel with two filters see attached if it will pass. 20 Mhz is down more than 60 db and 5 MHz 55. Distribution Amp takes care of the rest. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/12/2014 8:13:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgmin...@mediacombb.net writes: Just a few days ago, I ordered parts to build a couple of the Wenzel 2-diode doublers, described in the same article as your full-wave diode doubler, just in time to discover them on Ebay (via slow boat from China), item# 171511157159. I inspected the components and layout in the picture in the listing, and it certainly looks like the Wenzel FWB doubler. At $9.99 USD, the price is cheap enough, especially since you get SMA connectors on both ends. Might have to do a bit of solder work on the SMA connectors if you want to put it into a little box. The listing on the doubler on Ebay says that the low end is 10MHz, but I'll bet that it will get down to 5MHz quite easily If there's any trouble handling a 5MHz input, you could easily use a lower frequency ferrite for the balun and make it work. As you suggest, a BPF on the output and maybe a bit of amplification to get the level up to a usable level should get you a fairly clean 10 MHz. Dave M ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [3] [1] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [4] [2] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma [5] ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma [6] ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/ [7] ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [8] and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [9] and follow the instructions there. Links: -- [1] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it/files/high _performance_frequency_doublerv13.pdf[2] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://www.timeok.it [3] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[4] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[5] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://webmail.timeok.it/parse. php%3Fredirect%3Dhttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma[6] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://webmail.timeok.it/parse. php%3Fredirect%3Dhttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma[7] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=http://atmail.org/ [8] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts[9] http://webmail.timeok.it/parse.php?redirect=https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ma ilman/listinfo/time-nuts Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/
[time-nuts] STEL-1173/CM Source
FYI, I found a source for the PLCC44 version of the STEL-1173 that's used in some Datum FTS Cesium standards. I got mine from here: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10PCS-STEL-1173-CM-PLCC/2023682701.html I left positive feedback, not sure why it doesn't show. Shipping was very slow, but the chips appear to be NOS. There are no scratches on the leads which suggests that they were never installed in a socket. I was having trouble with one so I decided to sacrifice it to see what was inside it. The die is labelled 'ORBIT B-100'. When I chopped out the dead chip from my FTS-4065A, the bottom was stamped with the word ORBIT. ORBIT Semiconductor works on FPGA to ASIC conversions. It looks like Stanford used Orbit as a fab house. I'm currently measuring my 4065A against my Tbolt. After about 37 hours, I'm still not seeing anything that I can attribute to the 4065A. All I'm seeing is the Tbolt and the typical response that every GPSDO gives. I'm looking at Total Deviation values of around 1E-13 at 100Kseconds. Frequency offset error appears to be about 6E-13. All diagnostic status values are within spec. I had to adjust the signal level from the tube - it was too HIGH! I decided to solder in a socket so that I won't have to go through any pain if this chip dies in the future - and I now have spares! Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
The ring counter has been re-invented! I'm pretty sure that particular feedback network is in the TTL Cookbook (will have to find my copy). Tim N3QE On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@gmail.com wrote: No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] STEL-1173/CM Source
Are you sure you are measuring the 4065A against the Tbolt? TBolt feeding the start and 4065A feeding the stop and a counter in time interval mode? On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: FYI, I found a source for the PLCC44 version of the STEL-1173 that's used in some Datum FTS Cesium standards. I got mine from here: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10PCS-STEL-1173-CM-PLCC/2023682701.html I left positive feedback, not sure why it doesn't show. Shipping was very slow, but the chips appear to be NOS. There are no scratches on the leads which suggests that they were never installed in a socket. I was having trouble with one so I decided to sacrifice it to see what was inside it. The die is labelled 'ORBIT B-100'. When I chopped out the dead chip from my FTS-4065A, the bottom was stamped with the word ORBIT. ORBIT Semiconductor works on FPGA to ASIC conversions. It looks like Stanford used Orbit as a fab house. I'm currently measuring my 4065A against my Tbolt. After about 37 hours, I'm still not seeing anything that I can attribute to the 4065A. All I'm seeing is the Tbolt and the typical response that every GPSDO gives. I'm looking at Total Deviation values of around 1E-13 at 100Kseconds. Frequency offset error appears to be about 6E-13. All diagnostic status values are within spec. I had to adjust the signal level from the tube - it was too HIGH! I decided to solder in a socket so that I won't have to go through any pain if this chip dies in the future - and I now have spares! Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Whatever the source for that signal, it may explain why all our wwvb clocks have had receiving troubles over the last weeks syncing up here in NV... Sent from my iPad On Nov 14, 2014, at 6:10, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: OK everyone. I am sorry I left my 60 Khz transmitter on in Boston. Good to see its getting out to California. The antenna is a 90 foot tower. I figured since the d-psk-r's been a long experiment I would just replace wwvb with a constant phase no modulation Cs driven signal. Why fix the problem? :-) Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 11/14/14, 4:28 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The question kind of is: Is it really supposed to be 60kHz and slightly off frequency? Or is it deliberately at that frequency because it's a multiple/submultimple of something useful? It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. 59.94 * 1000.87... is it a horizontal line/clock frequency in a display of some sort? It's also 3.579545MHz/59.4 (i.e. pretty close to color burst divided by 60) Here on Time-Nuts, though, we know that it is ancient aliens who have landed on top of a tall tepui in Venezuela near Angel Falls to help Nikola Tesla in his secret lair. Or maybe it's the Sedona hum? The real question is what is this strange signal's ADEV? Is it really, really accurate? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
https://www.google.com/patents/US3109990 On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: The ring counter has been re-invented! I'm pretty sure that particular feedback network is in the TTL Cookbook (will have to find my copy). Tim N3QE On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@gmail.com wrote: No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
My unit has been on for just over a week. I captured the data overnight - the PPS TI plot is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLMVV4NzFTMnlNaDA/. I see a similar PPS TI graph to yours, but my EFC is much different. Trouble is with that, I'm not sure what I'm looking at and what normal should look like! I also snapped the Time Measures graph - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLdjdPRWpITGpmeDQ/. I don't yet have any other method of measuring ADEV, but what is captured here looks similar to many other ADEV charts. Again, any advice on what I should be looking for would be helpful. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 8:18 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments Thanks everyone. My concern is did I need to reach out and get an exchange before the 30 days is up. I sense ASI the vendor is actually a pretty good company and will do the right thing. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That OCXO is doing very well. If you look at the plot, it ??s doing a few LSB ??s on the DAC over the time period. That ??s good performance. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:17 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810 ??s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don ??t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can ??t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it ??s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn ??t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn ??t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don ??t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob ??s point about getting the GPSDO ??s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the chain, all one has to do is remove or bypass the 15 MHz filter before the output. Even if you don ??t have the rubidium unit but have either/or GPDO or Crystal oscillator email me off list for the rubidium schematic as after the logic chips they use the same circuit. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To
Re: [time-nuts] Efratom/Datum Starloc II
Nigel, thanks for the manual. It helped immensely. This unit does run TSIP of course, but with a smaller set of commands/reports than the Thunderbolt. As for the internals, I only got as far as seeing that the GPS module is in fact a UT+ with a Synergy sticker on it and the OCXO has an Efratom label. I will take a more complete inventory and some decent pictures soon. I let it run overnight and played a bit, but then did a hard reset and let it start running again this afternoon. After about 5 1/2 hours I took a screen cap from Lady Heather which (I hope) is attached. It finished it's default 4 hour self survey, and went into 'normal' mode. Even though it's not really run long enough to draw any real conclusions, I do notice a few things. The DAC (and PPS) oscillations are quite interesting as is the default TC value at 21 seconds. The minimum DAC step size appears to be 76 uV (although I have not confirmed that 76uV is the LSB). I found that even though it says 'saved position' if I power cycle, it starts the self survey over. For now I'm just going to let it cook for a while. To quote the nice manual that Nigel sent: In a nominal operating environment a display of +/- 50 nsec offset for the PPS and +/- 10 ppb for the 10 MHz indicate that the system has successfully aligned itself to GPS time and is disciplining normally. We'll see how that h olds up. Thanks again for the manual! Paul - K9MR On Nov 13, 2014, at 5:05 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Paul, I haven't used the Starloc II, so can't offer any direct help/advice, but I did find manuals for the Starloc II and Starloc II plus when searching for Starloc-Lite data a few years ago. As always I hoarded what I found, which makes this your lucky day rather than mine as I never did find a Starloc-Lite manual:-) Aside from proving the Motorola GPS modules were ok stand alone I never got any response out of the Lites whatsoever, these are PCB based units presumably for OEM use, and put them aside for the later that never comes. I'm intrigued though that TBoltMon will talk to the Starloc II as I'm pretty sure this also uses a Motorola GPS module, perhaps a UTplus, so I wouldn't have expected it to be all that close to a Tbolt. However, from just looking at the manuals the Datum Timekeeper firmware interface seems to be based on the Trimble TSIP protocol, or vice versa:-), so this might explain it. Manuals attached, good luck, any problems with the files let me know and I'll try again. NB, manual sent direct but at 1.3MB zipped file is too big for the list, can upload to Didier's site if anyone else would like a copy. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
You may have to rig up a portable or mobile receiver to track it down. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier Hi It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] My NTGS50AA failed
Hi, In my case, if the problem is the op-amp or some passive around, it can be easily replaced. If not the only solution is to find a parts unit to transplant the programmed Xilinx chip. Now I'm quite busy trying to get the schematic of the op-amp zone. Regards, Ignacio El 14/11/2014 a las 13:32, Bob Camp escribió: Hi I have a Bolt that has a similar stuck EFC. In my case it’s not the OCXO either. There is some sort of failure on the inputs to the summing op amp that drives the output to the high end of the DAC’s range. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:06 PM, EB4APL eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es wrote: Hello Nigel, Finally I got enough courage and removed the OCXO, you know what kind of task it is.. Fortunately I didn't spoiled the PCB so I'll install 2 smb connectors in the provided places, I don't want to return there if I need to change the oscillator. Well, the oscillator is ok, this is in some way bad news because the oscillator is easily replaceable, and the EFC voltage remains stuck on 5.02 V. Now I'll test the quad op-amp and the related parts. If they are ok the problem is in the Xilinx chip, something that cannot be replaced unless I get parts donor, even that way is very problematic since it is a 80 pin chip. I'll continue posting my findings. Best regards, Ignacio El 13/11/2014 a las 12:03, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I'm sure removing the oscillator would make your faultfinding much more straightforward. When I removed mine I started out quite convinced I wouldn't be able to do it, even with the solder mostly removed from around the pins they were obviously quite a tight fit and all I had available at that time was a plunger type solder sucker and desoldering braid, as the bits on my old Pace desoldering kit were well past their best. The answer basically was lots of braid, lots of patience, and resisting like crazy any temptation to pull against a hole that wasn't fully released, but I certainly wouldn't want to do it that way again in a hurry. The desoldering gun I use now would make it easier but the holes are really a bit small for those oscillator pins. The good news though is that the connectors are there as a back up and fitting them definitely makes it more versatile. I had considered repeating the performance on another NTGS50AA and/or NTBW50AA, I really think I should but so far haven't found the courage:-) I think previous checks for 1PPS outputs might have been limited to the external connectors but it would make sense if it was available somewhere on the PCB, I'll try to get one powered up later and check your findings, if I can find a bit of space that us amongst the usual chaos! Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 13/11/2014 01:11:30 GMT Standard Time, eb4...@cembreros.jazztel.es writes: Hi Nigel, Thank you for the suggestions, I was trying to avoid the OCXO removal but I think that now it must be done. I was also playing with the idea of populating the connectors so an OCXO exchange could be easily made, this makes possible to try various oscillators. Meanwhile I has been probing and measuring a lot of points and by chance I found a very interesting thing: Probing TP33 (which is close to the Trimble chip (U2) and directly connected to pin 76) there is a 1PPS, 10 us wide signal. I've checked it and appears to be synchronous with the 1/2 PPS output so maybe it can be routed to an output, probably I'll replace the 1/2 PPS with it, using the existing drive circuit and connector since it is very straightforward. My only concern is if this signal only is there during the anomalous condition that I have now, I have to retest it after fixing it. I had asked several times if anybody had located a 1PPS signal on these units, but the responses were negative and I had not probed systematically the board before. Also I'm taking notes of the signals found and I'll try to make a partial schematic at least with the EFC circuitry. When I fix it I'll clean the notes and figures and I'll upload it to some place. Best regards, Ignacio El 12/11/2014 a las 11:47, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts escribió: Hi Ignacio I have removed a faulty oscillator from one of these, not one of my more relaxed moments and quite amazed when the board emerged totally undamaged, but proof at least that it can be done:-) With the oscillator removed there's access to two sets of connector pads that will either accept SMA or SMB connectors and after conducting tests on the original oscillator via flying leads just soldered to the board I decided not to fit a replacement to the board after all but to fit a couple of SMB connectors to make the setup more versatile, and to avoid the possibility of having to remove another oscillator in the future:-) Another advantage of these pads is that if the board does get damaged removing the oscillator they can still be used as an alternative. The
[time-nuts] Div by any number please
Perry yes that would be handy. I just received the si5351a chips mentioned on time nuts so may play with those shortly. They would seem to take of messy numbers nicely. But that may not be very true in reality. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Ebay KS-24361 may be gone. I emailed ASI to confirm.
Was thinking about another. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Have you contacted your local FCC office ? It has been about 20 years, but the FCC use to be quite proactive when interference tickets were opened -pete On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com wrote: You may have to rig up a portable or mobile receiver to track it down. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier Hi It could easily be a switcher in somebody’s video gear. Keeping the power supply in sync with the video may / may not be a good idea. Some people do it that way. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
OK, its a mystery, and will be until its properties are known. We have instrument capable of measuring those properties, but so far we've had the typical exchange of ignorance so often found on the 'net. Clever ignorance, but still not useful. Is Said Jackson the only other person seeing something? Has anyone tried looking for it and failed to find it? FWIW, many years ago I modified a BC-453 to tune 60 KHz (TRF) with a large loop antenna in the attic. The result was swamped by a 61 KHz signal from the neighbor's computer monitor. Needed a crystal filter to separate the signals. Wouldn't work on this one, though. Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No more, I'm afraid... Don Azelio Boriani No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
The premise of higher than normal click speed is false in the article too because the complex NOR gate is slow with that many inputs, and its tpd needs to be added to the Tsu and Tco of the flip flop chains, as well as the pcb propagation delays through the worst case trace.. It would have been faster to simply use a single reset RC delay to reset all FF asynchronously while only setting one FF at the same time during power-on. That would remove the Nor gate delay from the max speed calculation.. Sent From iPhone On Nov 14, 2014, at 12:13, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No more, I'm afraid... Don Azelio Boriani No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lucent Unit Differences
List, Wrote [Snip] The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810’s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That’s good to know. I only have the older style units. It will be interesting see how well the older units can be *tweeked*. [Snip] The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Power yes, but the waveform is highly distorted. [Snip] Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it’s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - That is the idea. Hack (in my case) the 10 MHz from the oscillator into the 15 MHz circuit. There are two i5 MHz filters to be bypassed or replaced. The Modifying The Lucent Rubidium article uses just two resistors to reduce overdriving and a surplus ethernet 10 MHz to reduce spurs. I don’t know how applicable it would be to the newer boxes but putting a load resistor on the output and using a scope should give one a good idea if a mod is needed. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How to clock a Beaglebone Black from an external reference
Also, simon the plls can be entirely bypassed. The circuits aren't clearly exposed but I believe you could get the peripheral clock covered and definitely the Ethernet clock - interesting from a 1588 perspective. On Friday, November 14, 2014, Simon Marsh subscripti...@burble.com wrote: Most processors can be clocked from a variety of sources and we know that with a bit of hacking it can be possible to connect them up to a time-nut-standard reference (either directly for simple microprocessors or with a synthesizer/pll). The Beaglebone Black is my weapon of choice when it comes to embedded boards and being able to lock it to an external reference should give some obvious benefits, such as being a great NTP server (e.g. a more modern equivalent of the Soekris boards) to having access to a large number of timers peripherals synchronised to the reference. The BBB requires a 24mhz clock to operate, so the end goal here will be to get it running from a 10mhz reference multiplied up by a PLL. The TL;DR summary is that despite the scary amount of tiny surface mount components on the board, the modifications actually turned out to be quite simple and, on first look, the result is great performance. So here's how to do it. Modification Details The BBB contains a TI Sitara AM3358 SoC and section 6.2 of the relevant datasheet (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/am3358.pdf) details the various clocking options for the core. The key bit of information is that the core will automatically use an external crystal or an LVCMOS clock source and does not require any specific configuration to be made either way. The schematic for the BBB is readily available ( https://github.com/CircuitCo/BeagleBone-Black/blob/master/BBB_SCH.pdf) and the upper left corner of page 3 details how the crystal on the board is connected. Together, the datasheet and schematic suggest that hooking up the BBB to an external LVCMOS source should be as easy as simply removing the existing crystal and attaching the source to OSC0_IN (pad 2 of the crystal). The crystal is marked as Y2, has a couple of supporting capacitors (C25 C26), and an associated resistor (R17). The crystal is nicely marked up on the board itself and is easy to spot. It's on the underside and attached are a couple of photos for reference. The photo is of a Rev C. Element 14 BBB; earlier revisions of the board have a different, large, black crystal but the board layout is the same. The main risk with removing the crystal is the proximity of all the tiny surface mount parts, but it turned out to be very simple with a basic hot air gun and some tweezers. I also removed R17 (the spec of dust sat between C25 C26), as the SoC datasheet stated OSC0_OUT should be left unconnected. The whole process was suprisingly easy, took less than a minute and I didn't need to resort to any magnifying aids. The location of C25 C26 help understand the orientation of the crystal, the external source needs to be attached to the pad nearest C25. This is the left hand pad in the photos. After the crystal has been removed, the remaining pads are nice and big making soldering of a coax cable straightforward. A final photo shows the crystal and R17 removed, and with coax attached. Test Performance In order to check the change was working, I clocked the BBB using a MicroCrystal OCXO connected to a cheap PLL-on-a-chip. The PLL I used has woefully few specs with regards to jitter etc, but had the virtue of being to hand, operated at 3.3v and directly provided a 2.4 multiplier to get 24mhz needed for the BBB. The BBB was connected to an adafruit GPS breakout and the lot was left out overnight on an open desk running NTP and using the gps as a PPS source. I'd intended to provide some nice graphs from NTP, but in practice the NTP jitter flatlined at 4us and the offset all night was practically flat as well, showing only occasional variation with maximums of +- 2us. This was great from a performance view, suggesting performance is better than NTP can report, but does make for some dull graphs. The frequency plot was barely more interesting but is attached; the scale is ppm and shows a drift of less than 0.1 ppm over 12 hours; this I think is consistent with the spec of the OCXO. Note the room is not air conditioned and my heating comes on between 6am and 7am; there is a nice lack of impact, as you would hope. For comparison, my RasPI NTP server varies about 1ppm, with offsets of +- 50us corresponding to temperature variations. Overall, this was quite a trivial test but nicely succesful. Internally the BBB has quite a few different clock domains so, longer term, it will be interesting to see if the impact of the SoC internal PLLs can be measured. Whilst not an issue for something as high level as NTP, the PLLs will determine the detail of how the reference stability transfers to peripherals like the BBB timers and PRU.
Re: [time-nuts] How to clock a Beaglebone Black from an external referenceL
This is fantastic. If anyone is interested i would be happy to share my design for a couple of PLL/oscillator boards in cape form factor that would feed this perfectly. I've been waffling on my choice of microcontroller but in the spirit of this application I'll likely go with an msp430. On Friday, November 14, 2014, Simon Marsh subscripti...@burble.com wrote: Most processors can be clocked from a variety of sources and we know that with a bit of hacking it can be possible to connect them up to a time-nut-standard reference (either directly for simple microprocessors or with a synthesizer/pll). The Beaglebone Black is my weapon of choice when it comes to embedded boards and being able to lock it to an external reference should give some obvious benefits, such as being a great NTP server (e.g. a more modern equivalent of the Soekris boards) to having access to a large number of timers peripherals synchronised to the reference. The BBB requires a 24mhz clock to operate, so the end goal here will be to get it running from a 10mhz reference multiplied up by a PLL. The TL;DR summary is that despite the scary amount of tiny surface mount components on the board, the modifications actually turned out to be quite simple and, on first look, the result is great performance. So here's how to do it. Modification Details The BBB contains a TI Sitara AM3358 SoC and section 6.2 of the relevant datasheet (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/am3358.pdf) details the various clocking options for the core. The key bit of information is that the core will automatically use an external crystal or an LVCMOS clock source and does not require any specific configuration to be made either way. The schematic for the BBB is readily available ( https://github.com/CircuitCo/BeagleBone-Black/blob/master/BBB_SCH.pdf) and the upper left corner of page 3 details how the crystal on the board is connected. Together, the datasheet and schematic suggest that hooking up the BBB to an external LVCMOS source should be as easy as simply removing the existing crystal and attaching the source to OSC0_IN (pad 2 of the crystal). The crystal is marked as Y2, has a couple of supporting capacitors (C25 C26), and an associated resistor (R17). The crystal is nicely marked up on the board itself and is easy to spot. It's on the underside and attached are a couple of photos for reference. The photo is of a Rev C. Element 14 BBB; earlier revisions of the board have a different, large, black crystal but the board layout is the same. The main risk with removing the crystal is the proximity of all the tiny surface mount parts, but it turned out to be very simple with a basic hot air gun and some tweezers. I also removed R17 (the spec of dust sat between C25 C26), as the SoC datasheet stated OSC0_OUT should be left unconnected. The whole process was suprisingly easy, took less than a minute and I didn't need to resort to any magnifying aids. The location of C25 C26 help understand the orientation of the crystal, the external source needs to be attached to the pad nearest C25. This is the left hand pad in the photos. After the crystal has been removed, the remaining pads are nice and big making soldering of a coax cable straightforward. A final photo shows the crystal and R17 removed, and with coax attached. Test Performance In order to check the change was working, I clocked the BBB using a MicroCrystal OCXO connected to a cheap PLL-on-a-chip. The PLL I used has woefully few specs with regards to jitter etc, but had the virtue of being to hand, operated at 3.3v and directly provided a 2.4 multiplier to get 24mhz needed for the BBB. The BBB was connected to an adafruit GPS breakout and the lot was left out overnight on an open desk running NTP and using the gps as a PPS source. I'd intended to provide some nice graphs from NTP, but in practice the NTP jitter flatlined at 4us and the offset all night was practically flat as well, showing only occasional variation with maximums of +- 2us. This was great from a performance view, suggesting performance is better than NTP can report, but does make for some dull graphs. The frequency plot was barely more interesting but is attached; the scale is ppm and shows a drift of less than 0.1 ppm over 12 hours; this I think is consistent with the spec of the OCXO. Note the room is not air conditioned and my heating comes on between 6am and 7am; there is a nice lack of impact, as you would hope. For comparison, my RasPI NTP server varies about 1ppm, with offsets of +- 50us corresponding to temperature variations. Overall, this was quite a trivial test but nicely succesful. Internally the BBB has quite a few different clock domains so, longer term, it will be interesting to see if the impact of the SoC internal PLLs can be measured. Whilst not an issue for something as high level as NTP, the PLLs will determine the detail of how the
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
Yes! I did find a patent that illustrated the exact same feedback circuit as in the EE times article. But most self-decoding ring counters in mass-produced applications use simpler lower propagation-delay gate arrangements to ensure the counter self-corrects any defective sequences. e.g. look at how the CD4017 does not use a 10 input NAND gate!!! Tim N3QE On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: The premise of higher than normal click speed is false in the article too because the complex NOR gate is slow with that many inputs, and its tpd needs to be added to the Tsu and Tco of the flip flop chains, as well as the pcb propagation delays through the worst case trace.. It would have been faster to simply use a single reset RC delay to reset all FF asynchronously while only setting one FF at the same time during power-on. That would remove the Nor gate delay from the max speed calculation.. Sent From iPhone On Nov 14, 2014, at 12:13, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No more, I'm afraid... Don Azelio Boriani No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] How to clock a Beaglebone Black from an external referenceL
I'd certainly be interested, and any suggestions for doing a time-nut suitable 10 to 24mhz step up gratefully received. Cheers Simon On 14/11/2014 18:50, Neil Schroeder wrote: This is fantastic. If anyone is interested i would be happy to share my design for a couple of PLL/oscillator boards in cape form factor that would feed this perfectly. I've been waffling on my choice of microcontroller but in the spirit of this application I'll likely go with an msp430. On Friday, November 14, 2014, Simon Marsh subscripti...@burble.com wrote: Most processors can be clocked from a variety of sources and we know that with a bit of hacking it can be possible to connect them up to a time-nut-standard reference (either directly for simple microprocessors or with a synthesizer/pll). The Beaglebone Black is my weapon of choice when it comes to embedded boards and being able to lock it to an external reference should give some obvious benefits, such as being a great NTP server (e.g. a more modern equivalent of the Soekris boards) to having access to a large number of timers peripherals synchronised to the reference. The BBB requires a 24mhz clock to operate, so the end goal here will be to get it running from a 10mhz reference multiplied up by a PLL. The TL;DR summary is that despite the scary amount of tiny surface mount components on the board, the modifications actually turned out to be quite simple and, on first look, the result is great performance. So here's how to do it. Modification Details The BBB contains a TI Sitara AM3358 SoC and section 6.2 of the relevant datasheet (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/am3358.pdf) details the various clocking options for the core. The key bit of information is that the core will automatically use an external crystal or an LVCMOS clock source and does not require any specific configuration to be made either way. The schematic for the BBB is readily available ( https://github.com/CircuitCo/BeagleBone-Black/blob/master/BBB_SCH.pdf) and the upper left corner of page 3 details how the crystal on the board is connected. Together, the datasheet and schematic suggest that hooking up the BBB to an external LVCMOS source should be as easy as simply removing the existing crystal and attaching the source to OSC0_IN (pad 2 of the crystal). The crystal is marked as Y2, has a couple of supporting capacitors (C25 C26), and an associated resistor (R17). The crystal is nicely marked up on the board itself and is easy to spot. It's on the underside and attached are a couple of photos for reference. The photo is of a Rev C. Element 14 BBB; earlier revisions of the board have a different, large, black crystal but the board layout is the same. The main risk with removing the crystal is the proximity of all the tiny surface mount parts, but it turned out to be very simple with a basic hot air gun and some tweezers. I also removed R17 (the spec of dust sat between C25 C26), as the SoC datasheet stated OSC0_OUT should be left unconnected. The whole process was suprisingly easy, took less than a minute and I didn't need to resort to any magnifying aids. The location of C25 C26 help understand the orientation of the crystal, the external source needs to be attached to the pad nearest C25. This is the left hand pad in the photos. After the crystal has been removed, the remaining pads are nice and big making soldering of a coax cable straightforward. A final photo shows the crystal and R17 removed, and with coax attached. Test Performance In order to check the change was working, I clocked the BBB using a MicroCrystal OCXO connected to a cheap PLL-on-a-chip. The PLL I used has woefully few specs with regards to jitter etc, but had the virtue of being to hand, operated at 3.3v and directly provided a 2.4 multiplier to get 24mhz needed for the BBB. The BBB was connected to an adafruit GPS breakout and the lot was left out overnight on an open desk running NTP and using the gps as a PPS source. I'd intended to provide some nice graphs from NTP, but in practice the NTP jitter flatlined at 4us and the offset all night was practically flat as well, showing only occasional variation with maximums of +- 2us. This was great from a performance view, suggesting performance is better than NTP can report, but does make for some dull graphs. The frequency plot was barely more interesting but is attached; the scale is ppm and shows a drift of less than 0.1 ppm over 12 hours; this I think is consistent with the spec of the OCXO. Note the room is not air conditioned and my heating comes on between 6am and 7am; there is a nice lack of impact, as you would hope. For comparison, my RasPI NTP server varies about 1ppm, with offsets of +- 50us corresponding to temperature variations. Overall, this was quite a trivial test but nicely succesful. Internally the BBB has quite a few different clock domains so, longer term, it will be interesting to see if the impact of the SoC internal PLLs can be
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
Hi: The Twisted Johnson Ring Counter may be the one your looking for. The individual stages are not clocked at the input frequency, but rather something like N/5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_counter#Four-bit_ring_counter_sequences It's decodes using 2-input gates. The last one I made used the 723 F-F from Fairchild. http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#Lamp Mail_Attachment -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html Tim Shoppa wrote: Yes! I did find a patent that illustrated the exact same feedback circuit as in the EE times article. But most self-decoding ring counters in mass-produced applications use simpler lower propagation-delay gate arrangements to ensure the counter self-corrects any defective sequences. e.g. look at how the CD4017 does not use a 10 input NAND gate!!! Tim N3QE On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: The premise of higher than normal click speed is false in the article too because the complex NOR gate is slow with that many inputs, and its tpd needs to be added to the Tsu and Tco of the flip flop chains, as well as the pcb propagation delays through the worst case trace.. It would have been faster to simply use a single reset RC delay to reset all FF asynchronously while only setting one FF at the same time during power-on. That would remove the Nor gate delay from the max speed calculation.. Sent From iPhone On Nov 14, 2014, at 12:13, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No more, I'm afraid... Don Azelio Boriani No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and comments. Here is the latest... At great effort, I moved the loop-stick antenna and preamp, now mounted on a pole, from the rear of the house to a midpoint of the house toward the front. The old position had the antenna about 10 feet off the ground. The new position now allows me to rotate the antenna, and it is 21 feet off the ground. Just my luck, that could hardly have been a worse move. Now the offending carrier is much, much stronger, and completely swamps poor little WWVB. Also, the offending illegal transmitter does not null with rotation of the loop-stick antenna as WWVB does. This to me means the generator is local to the antenna. My neighbor has a DishTV antenna and down-converter across the way from my WWVB antenna which stood a good chance of having a SMPS in it. I leaned my antenna and pole over the fence toward the dish, and the carrier immediately saturated my preamp. So, the next move is get my WWVB antenna and preamp centered on my lot, as far from illegal transmitters I can't control as possible. The analog multipliers for my Costas loop arrived today, so I'm super-anxious to get a decent signal... -Doug, W6DSR -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:23 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] strange carrier Importance: Low I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit
Isn't the 10i/p gate to do the divide by N+1?? not just to avoid an all zeros switch on which does not need all 10 stages fed back if all you want is an N stage ring counter?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com To: Said Jackson saidj...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit Yes! I did find a patent that illustrated the exact same feedback circuit as in the EE times article. But most self-decoding ring counters in mass-produced applications use simpler lower propagation-delay gate arrangements to ensure the counter self-corrects any defective sequences. e.g. look at how the CD4017 does not use a 10 input NAND gate!!! Tim N3QE On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: The premise of higher than normal click speed is false in the article too because the complex NOR gate is slow with that many inputs, and its tpd needs to be added to the Tsu and Tco of the flip flop chains, as well as the pcb propagation delays through the worst case trace.. It would have been faster to simply use a single reset RC delay to reset all FF asynchronously while only setting one FF at the same time during power-on. That would remove the Nor gate delay from the max speed calculation.. Sent From iPhone On Nov 14, 2014, at 12:13, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No more, I'm afraid... Don Azelio Boriani No need to digitize, the article is available here: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1 or here (in .PDF): ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: List, I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*. Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any number plus one. Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -George Bernard Shaw Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Doug Great absolutely the fact that small of move made that much of a difference and that you can not null it does say nearfield. Seems very nearfield. You can prove that, cut the feed lines. Hmmm maybe not. I used the analog approach using mc 1496 chips and also the analog devices. Was not crazy about the results. Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Doug Ronald d...@dougronald.com wrote: Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and comments. Here is the latest... At great effort, I moved the loop-stick antenna and preamp, now mounted on a pole, from the rear of the house to a midpoint of the house toward the front. The old position had the antenna about 10 feet off the ground. The new position now allows me to rotate the antenna, and it is 21 feet off the ground. Just my luck, that could hardly have been a worse move. Now the offending carrier is much, much stronger, and completely swamps poor little WWVB. Also, the offending illegal transmitter does not null with rotation of the loop-stick antenna as WWVB does. This to me means the generator is local to the antenna. My neighbor has a DishTV antenna and down-converter across the way from my WWVB antenna which stood a good chance of having a SMPS in it. I leaned my antenna and pole over the fence toward the dish, and the carrier immediately saturated my preamp. So, the next move is get my WWVB antenna and preamp centered on my lot, as far from illegal transmitters I can't control as possible. The analog multipliers for my Costas loop arrived today, so I'm super-anxious to get a decent signal... -Doug, W6DSR -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:23 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] strange carrier Importance: Low I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Division Circuit
Ouch! some circuits just sound too painful to think about... ;-) --- The Twisted Johnson Ring Counter... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments
Anthony Had a chance to compare my image with yours and the blue behaviors the same as far as peak to peak goes. Yours however has far fewer jumps then mine. You EFC has various jumps but is fairly constant while mine as Bob and others have said is baking in. I am feeling better about my Lucent. The ADEV plots are similar to what you sent. Just fired up the ole Z3801 for comparison graphs. Should be interesting. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com wrote: My unit has been on for just over a week. I captured the data overnight - the PPS TI plot is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLMVV4NzFTMnlNaDA/. I see a similar PPS TI graph to yours, but my EFC is much different. Trouble is with that, I'm not sure what I'm looking at and what normal should look like! I also snapped the Time Measures graph - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLdjdPRWpITGpmeDQ/. I don't yet have any other method of measuring ADEV, but what is captured here looks similar to many other ADEV charts. Again, any advice on what I should be looking for would be helpful. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 8:18 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent GPSDO comments Thanks everyone. My concern is did I need to reach out and get an exchange before the 30 days is up. I sense ASI the vendor is actually a pretty good company and will do the right thing. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi That OCXO is doing very well. If you look at the plot, it ??s doing a few LSB ??s on the DAC over the time period. That ??s good performance. Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 9:17 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob the actual pictures and files are large so here is the left screen and right screen from the z3811 program. Pretty easy to guess whats in the middle. Lots of noise on the ti/pps and you can see EFC is rising all the time. I will say in the past it had been a steady rise now there is a wave that might mean its slowing down a bit. But this all looks rattier then I would believe. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi How much is your unit moving? Bob On Nov 13, 2014, at 1:50 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: On the older units that used a RB to control an Xtal. They created a mix of 5 Mhz +10 Mhz and that produced 15 out that hit an amplifier to drive a 12 way splitter. I think I reverse engineered the circuit. Its on paper and filed. Oh that ends this discussion. Anyhow it was not hard to figure out. I am still baking my Lucent in so want to see if it settles. There is just the barest of hints it may be. So do not want to power down to explore. Happy to dig in if I don't have to return the unit. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The chain in the Z3810 / 3811 / 3812 Lucent boxes is *much* different than the setup in the earlier parts. The phase noise and ADEV on the Z3810 ??s is better than what you got on the earlier versions. That makes keeping the noise down in whatever mod you do more important. The existing 10 MHz output on the Z3810 setup is a real good example of how a seemingly simple thing can add a lot of phase noise and even mess up ADEV. I don ??t think the 15 MHz is used for much of anything in the Z3810. That could be wrong, but I can ??t see where it is needed based on poking around a little. The 15 MHz buffer appears to be quiet and puts out a lot of power. Using it for 10 MHz would give you a *lot* of 10 MHz signal to play with. IF the mods are simple it ??s an attractive solution. If it involves swapping out 30 parts - not so much. Bob On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Wrote: At some point we will get into hacking the main board to switch from 15 MHz to 10 MHz. One doesn ??t have to that if one uses the two IC divide by 1.5 circuit I offered the list. I specifically found it so I didn ??t have to hack the innards. Wrote: The great news is the oscillator is 5 Mhz. Don ??t bet the rent on that. My early units have 10 MHZ Datum oscillators. Bob ??s point about getting the GPSDO ??s if all cost the same is a good point. Another point. At least on the older units I have: GPSDO, Rubidium, and Crystal oscillator, the output circuitry after the 15 MHz conversion takes place is the same. So if one hacks the 10 Mhz into the
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
I'm pretty sure that there is nothing the in the neighbor's satellite receiver that is allowed to interfere with licensed services, such as WWVB. More usually, they contain a label, that says they must not cause any interference, and must suffer all interference. Reduce your loop to something like an old AM radio's loopstick with the appropriate resonating capacitor, and hunt out the 60KHz signal with a little more precision. The FCC is usually quite good at helping out if you do all the leg work for them. -Chuck Harris Doug Ronald wrote: Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and comments. Here is the latest... At great effort, I moved the loop-stick antenna and preamp, now mounted on a pole, from the rear of the house to a midpoint of the house toward the front. The old position had the antenna about 10 feet off the ground. The new position now allows me to rotate the antenna, and it is 21 feet off the ground. Just my luck, that could hardly have been a worse move. Now the offending carrier is much, much stronger, and completely swamps poor little WWVB. Also, the offending illegal transmitter does not null with rotation of the loop-stick antenna as WWVB does. This to me means the generator is local to the antenna. My neighbor has a DishTV antenna and down-converter across the way from my WWVB antenna which stood a good chance of having a SMPS in it. I leaned my antenna and pole over the fence toward the dish, and the carrier immediately saturated my preamp. So, the next move is get my WWVB antenna and preamp centered on my lot, as far from illegal transmitters I can't control as possible. The analog multipliers for my Costas loop arrived today, so I'm super-anxious to get a decent signal... -Doug, W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
Hi Doug: Can you power your WWVB receiver from batteries and shut down your house AC? That way it's not something inside your house. http://www.prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml Mail_Attachment -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html Doug Ronald wrote: Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and comments. Here is the latest... At great effort, I moved the loop-stick antenna and preamp, now mounted on a pole, from the rear of the house to a midpoint of the house toward the front. The old position had the antenna about 10 feet off the ground. The new position now allows me to rotate the antenna, and it is 21 feet off the ground. Just my luck, that could hardly have been a worse move. Now the offending carrier is much, much stronger, and completely swamps poor little WWVB. Also, the offending illegal transmitter does not null with rotation of the loop-stick antenna as WWVB does. This to me means the generator is local to the antenna. My neighbor has a DishTV antenna and down-converter across the way from my WWVB antenna which stood a good chance of having a SMPS in it. I leaned my antenna and pole over the fence toward the dish, and the carrier immediately saturated my preamp. So, the next move is get my WWVB antenna and preamp centered on my lot, as far from illegal transmitters I can't control as p! ossible. The analog multipliers for my Costas loop arrived today, so I'm super-anxious to get a decent signal... -Doug, W6DSR -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:23 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] strange carrier Importance: Low I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with my directional antenna yet. Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving? Thanks, -Doug Ronald W6DSR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier
You might be able to notch it out with a Q multiplier. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier OK, its a mystery, and will be until its properties are known. We have instrument capable of measuring those properties, but so far we've had the typical exchange of ignorance so often found on the 'net. Clever ignorance, but still not useful. Is Said Jackson the only other person seeing something? Has anyone tried looking for it and failed to find it? FWIW, many years ago I modified a BC-453 to tune 60 KHz (TRF) with a large loop antenna in the attic. The result was swamped by a 61 KHz signal from the neighbor's computer monitor. Needed a crystal filter to separate the signals. Wouldn't work on this one, though. Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
