Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:02:27 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from Holy Hubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism, considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, it was like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul argued against circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that people were damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized in water. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until he was in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area. Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Hubert had taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teaching right about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a "man" right? Or am I wrong? Laura Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Terry/Laura: Jesus is the Way/Truth/Life..Unless you live in complete isolation, reading only the Bible while pleading for the Spirit's assistance to understand/live then, you both base (some) of what you believe on the teaching of others however mediated. a. would you acknowledge that this is so? b. would you each, while thanking God for them, name four or five such men/women? c. perhaps others could benefit from that which they taught you. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 01, 2004 07:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:02:27 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from HolyHubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism,considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, itwas like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul arguedagainst circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that peoplewere damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized inwater. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until hewas in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area.Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Huberthad taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teachingright about it. :-)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a "man" right? Or am I wrong? LauraVery dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that.Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Laura wrote: So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a man right? Or am I wrong? Terry wrote: Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Yes, you both are right, but if you had ever met Hubert, you would understand it much better. Hubert was one of those few men who I consider a true apostle of Jesus Christ. He had all the Biblical indications of one, including the special signs and wonders. Hubert also had a fantastic mind and memory that allowed the Holy Spirit to pepper his messages with many ideas. He could preach and teach to a group of 200 people, and if you surveyed the group, you would get the idea that there were about seven different messages given that night. It was the anointing upon him such that it was not even what he said but the work of the Holy Spirit. I remember Hubert telling about a woman who was saved. He asked her what it was about his message that saved her. She said nothing. The whole time he was preaching, she kept seeing a towel. She had stolen a towel from the motel, and the more he preached, the more she kept seeing that towel. Hubert was well aware that it was not him or what he said that saved people. Hubert's teaching about baptism was quite fascinating to listen to. Remember that Hubert had the entire New Testament memorized and about two-thirds of the Old Testament. Hubert could quote every verse in the Bible about baptism. He preached and taught without a Bible in hand, and while you were fumbling with trying to look up the references and read the verse for yourself, he had already quoted it from memory and was on to his next point. Furthermore, Hubert was a student of history, and he could lead you through all the historical accounts of baptism from memory. Hubert taught that baptism was one of the most divisive elements in Christianity. As he contrasted the various ways in which baptism has been used and the various ways it has been taught and practiced, it was very easy to become convinced that Hubert knew more about baptism than any man alive. He would certainly raise issues that you never knew. For example, I never knew until meeting Hubert that the early church baptized people naked. Hubert had studied for fifteen years under a Rabbi, achieving a doctorate status in that, so he had the Jewish perspective as well. Elsman had the rare privilege of being associated very personally with Hubert for about 8 years I think. Hubert worked with Elsman in a Detroit area church setting (though Elsman might brag about how he bought Hubert a church, bringing a blemish upon Hubert's testimony when he does so). Elsman also provided for a radio ministry for Hubert through a radio station that he owns. So there are a lot of reasons why Elsman might be inclined to accept Hubert's theology in the same way that some people have been enamored with John Calvin's intellect and blindly follow some of his erroneous theology. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
David: Sometimes the greater the man/woman of God the greater the error. When wrong they were REALLY WRONG!! I used to hear AWTozer preach. He dreaded being Lionized. He wished for there to be no biography written on him. He spoke of the eulogistic component of such efforts. This is less true these days as we tend toward extreme criticism. Lincoln wanted the wart in the portrait. We look for and highlight them. From Wigglesworth to Hinn with Sister Amy and Kathryn Kuhlman along the way they (we) are a true cast of characters are we not? Some truth, some opinion and some error manifests from each. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 01, 2004 07:39 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH Laura wrote: So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a man right? Or am I wrong? Terry wrote: Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Yes, you both are right, but if you had ever met Hubert, you would understand it much better. Hubert was one of those few men who I consider a true apostle of Jesus Christ. He had all the Biblical indications of one, including the special signs and wonders. Hubert also had a fantastic mind and memory that allowed the Holy Spirit to pepper his messages with many ideas. He could preach and teach to a group of 200 people, and if you surveyed the group, you would get the idea that there were about seven different messages given that night. It was the anointing upon him such that it was not even what he said but the work of the Holy Spirit. I remember Hubert telling about a woman who was saved. He asked her what it was about his message that saved her. She said nothing. The whole time he was preaching, she kept seeing a towel. She had stolen a towel from the motel, and the more he preached, the more she kept seeing that towel. Hubert was well aware that it was not him or what he said that saved people. Hubert's teaching about baptism was quite fascinating to listen to. Remember that Hubert had the entire New Testament memorized and about two-thirds of the Old Testament. Hubert could quote every verse in the Bible about baptism. He preached and taught without a Bible in hand, and while you were fumbling with trying to look up the references and read the verse for yourself, he had already quoted it from memory and was on to his next point. Furthermore, Hubert was a student of history, and he could lead you through all the historical accounts of baptism from memory. Hubert taught that baptism was one of the most divisive elements in Christianity. As he contrasted the various ways in which baptism has been used and the various ways it has been taught and practiced, it was very easy to become convinced that Hubert knew more about baptism than any man alive. He would certainly raise issues that you never knew. For example, I never knew until meeting Hubert that the early church baptized people naked. Hubert had studied for fifteen years under a Rabbi, achieving a doctorate status in that, so he had the Jewish perspective as well. Elsman had the rare privilege of being associated very personally with Hubert for about 8 years I think. Hubert worked with Elsman in a Detroit area church setting (though Elsman might brag about how he bought Hubert a church, bringing a blemish upon Hubert's testimony when he does so). Elsman also provided for a radio ministry for Hubert through a radio station that he owns. So there are a lot of reasons why Elsman might be inclined to accept Hubert's theology in the same way that some people have been enamored with John Calvin's intellect and blindly follow some of his erroneous theology. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Lance, My favorite story about Wigglesworth is the one where one night he was awakened by the presence of a large dark, evil presence at the foot of his bed. He sat up and saw that it was satan himself. To which Wigglesworth said, Oh, it's only you, turned over and went back to sleep. :-) Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH David: Sometimes the greater the man/woman of God the greater the error. When wrong they were REALLY WRONG!! I used to hear AWTozer preach. He dreaded being Lionized. He wished for there to be no biography written on him. He spoke of the eulogistic component of such efforts. This is less true these days as we tend toward extreme criticism. Lincoln wanted the wart in the portrait. We look for and highlight them. From Wigglesworth to Hinn with Sister Amy and Kathryn Kuhlman along the way they (we) are a true cast of characters are we not? Some truth, some opinion and some error manifests from each. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 01, 2004 07:39 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH Laura wrote: So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a man right? Or am I wrong? Terry wrote: Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Yes, you both are right, but if you had ever met Hubert, you would understand it much better. Hubert was one of those few men who I consider a true apostle of Jesus Christ. He had all the Biblical indications of one, including the special signs and wonders. Hubert also had a fantastic mind and memory that allowed the Holy Spirit to pepper his messages with many ideas. He could preach and teach to a group of 200 people, and if you surveyed the group, you would get the idea that there were about seven different messages given that night. It was the anointing upon him such that it was not even what he said but the work of the Holy Spirit. I remember Hubert telling about a woman who was saved. He asked her what it was about his message that saved her. She said nothing. The whole time he was preaching, she kept seeing a towel. She had stolen a towel from the motel, and the more he preached, the more she kept seeing that towel. Hubert was well aware that it was not him or what he said that saved people. Hubert's teaching about baptism was quite fascinating to listen to. Remember that Hubert had the entire New Testament memorized and about two-thirds of the Old Testament. Hubert could quote every verse in the Bible about baptism. He preached and taught without a Bible in hand, and while you were fumbling with trying to look up the references and read the verse for yourself, he had already quoted it from memory and was on to his next point. Furthermore, Hubert was a student of history, and he could lead you through all the historical accounts of baptism from memory. Hubert taught that baptism was one of the most divisive elements in Christianity. As he contrasted the various ways in which baptism has been used and the various ways it has been taught and practiced, it was very easy to become convinced that Hubert knew more about baptism than any man alive. He would certainly raise issues that you never knew. For example, I never knew until meeting Hubert that the early church baptized people naked. Hubert had studied for fifteen years under a Rabbi, achieving a doctorate status in that, so he had the Jewish perspective as well. Elsman had the rare privilege of being associated very personally with Hubert for about 8 years I think. Hubert worked with Elsman in a Detroit area church setting (though Elsman might brag about how he bought Hubert a church, bringing a blemish upon Hubert's testimony when he does so). Elsman also provided for a radio ministry for Hubert through a radio station that he owns. So there are a lot of reasons why Elsman might be inclined to accept Hubert's theology in the same way that some people have been enamored with John Calvin's intellect and blindly follow some of his erroneous theology. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Good morning Lance. I do not think that there can be any doubt that we learn from others. But as Laura pointed out, we do not base what we believe on what others teach; at least we try to not do that. I am very indebted to the lady who gave me a Strongs concordance. I did not even know at one time that such a help existed. I still use it regularly. She blessed me. I am indebted to one pastor who let me see that though there are a lot of phonies in the ministry, there are also godly men who live what they preach. I an in debt both to those who taught me to read, and to those who had the idea of a large print Bible. One enabled me to see what God was saying to me personally. The other enabled me to keep seeing as my eyesight deteriorated. I am in debt to Christian radio, and to the wide variety of "experts" who offer a wide variety of ways to view God's Holy word. I am indebted to everyone on TT for the same reason. I learn here. And I am indebted to vulgar, obnoxious, crude little vipers who crawl out from under rocks to denigrate decent people, because I see what I might have been if it were not for God's grace. Terry Lance Muir wrote: Terry/Laura: Jesus is the Way/Truth/Life..Unless you live in complete isolation, reading only the Bible while pleading for the Spirit's assistance to understand/live then, you both base (some) of what you believe on the teaching of others however mediated. a. would you acknowledge that this is so? b. would you each, while thanking God for them, name four or five such men/women? c. perhaps others could benefit from that which they taught you. Blessings, Lance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a "man" right? Or am I wrong? Laura Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Terry, You are such a man of God. Your humility shines. Izzy PS I hope you have a good ophthalmologist. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 6:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH Good morning Lance. I do not think that there can be any doubt that we learn from others. But as Laura pointed out, we do not base what we believe on what others teach; at least we try to not do that. I am very indebted to the lady who gave me a Strongs concordance. I did not even know at one time that such a help existed. I still use it regularly. She blessed me. I am indebted to one pastor who let me see that though there are a lot of phonies in the ministry, there are also godly men who live what they preach. I an in debt both to those who taught me to read, and to those who had the idea of a large print Bible. One enabled me to see what God was saying to me personally. The other enabled me to keep seeing as my eyesight deteriorated. I am in debt to Christian radio, and to the wide variety of experts who offer a wide variety of ways to view God's Holy word. I am indebted to everyone on TT for the same reason. I learn here. And I am indebted to vulgar, obnoxious, crude little vipers who crawl out from under rocks to denigrate decent people, because I see what I might have been if it were not for God's grace. Terry Lance Muir wrote: Terry/Laura: Jesus is the Way/Truth/Life..Unless you live in complete isolation, reading only the Bible while pleading for the Spirit's assistance to understand/live then, you both base (some) of what you believe on the teaching of others however mediated. a. would you acknowledge that this is so? b. would you each, while thanking God for them, name four or five such men/women? c. perhaps others could benefit from that which they taught you. Blessings, Lance [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a man right? Or am I wrong? Laura Very dangerous Laura, but I got a hunch you already knew that. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
In a message dated 4/29/2004 8:48:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PHILLIP WAS A JEW. THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW. Terry -- everyone was a JEW for the first several years of the church. Commands pertaining to salvation -- if in deed, there are such, cannot be ignored because they were given to the Jew first. It seems to me that if one believes in "steps for salvation," then the admonition to be baptized for the remission of sins is a difficult issue to ignore (Acts 2:38). If, however, one believes that Christ accomplished salvation for all, that the cross functions for those who rise to some level of goodness (the Gentile in Romans 2), then baptism "for the remission of sins" can be seen in a much different light. The thing that works against the four or five "steps in the plan of salvation" is that they are never mentioned in the same sentence -- they are never preached in the same sermon. On one occasion, someone is told to repent, on another, confession is the command, on another baptism is required, on another forsaking all that you have is the more important consideration. All this tells me that the first step for one is a different step for another. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
Judy wrote: Note: I find it interesting in light of the brouhaha over the incarnation that there are no types for this (that I am aware of) in the OT and it is not mentioned in the teaching of the apostles. Do you mean no types for baptism? The laver is a big typology of baptism. Or did you mean the incarnation? There is much typology for that too. As for Elsman's baptism theology, it is hyper-dispensational teaching that there is only one baptism... spirit baptism. Quaker's believe this. Study the arguments of the Quakers about baptism and you will find the arguments that Elsman makes. They are pretty weak arguments in my opinion, but then Quakers believed doctrine and teaching were secondary to feelings. You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from Holy Hubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism, considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, it was like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul argued against circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that people were damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized in water. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until he was in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area. Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Hubert had taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teaching right about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
In a message dated 4/30/2004 10:02:27 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You might like to know that Elsman learned this doctrine from HolyHubert Lindsey himself. Hubert strongly opposed water baptism,considering it a great source of damnation. From his perspective, itwas like commanding believers to be circumcised, and like Paul arguedagainst circumcision to the Galatian churches, Hubert argued that peoplewere damning others to hell fire by commanding them to be baptized inwater. Of course, Hubert also believed once-saved-always-saved until hewas in his sixties. Then his understanding was opened in that area.Too bad he didn't get straightened out on water baptism too. If Huberthad taught right about water baptism, then Elsman would be teachingright about it. :-)Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. So Elsman bases his views on Holy Hubert? Hmm It's dangerous to base your beliefs on a "man" right? Or am I wrong? Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Baptism: are we all wet? THE ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH
In a message dated 4/29/2004 7:00:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ELSMAN THE LAWYER, GIVING THE SHORT COURSE. HEY, IF YOU HAVE BEEN WATER BAPTIZED, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. SOME OF YOU NEED A BATH ANYWAY. Thought provoking, Elsman. When you have time, I would like to hear the long course. I know that baptism was practiced by the Jews for many years prior to the ministry of John, the Baptist., but had never thought of it to be a Jews only thing. Makes me wonfer why the Ethiopean eunouch was baptized by Philip. I also wonder why and if it was actually a command for Christians. Any thoughts you have to add would be appreciated. As far as that goes, I would like te thoughts of everyone on this subject, including verses if you do not mind. BOOGER, LISTEN UP!! THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW WHO WAS THE TREASURER FOR QUEEN CANDACE. HE HAD BEEN TO A JEWISH FEAST IN THE HOLY CITY, AND WAS RETURNING TO ETHIOPIA, BUT HE WAS UNSAVED. JESUS SENT PHILLIP TO MEET HIM AS HE WAS READING FROM IS. 52:15: "SO SHALL HE SPRINKLE MANY NATIONS." PHILLIP WAS A JEW. THE EUNUCH WAS A JEW. THUS, IT WAS A DIVERSE WASHING, CONSISTENT WITH THE TORAH. (ONE DOES WONDER WHERE THEY FOUND WATER IN THE DESERT, ESPECIALLY IF THE JEWS IMMERSED, AS THE LANGUAGE TENDS TO IMPLY.) ---ELSMAN
