Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
I loved Florida - even the heat and storms. The people were so friendly. We stayed in a kid- friendly place the second week and at the Marriot in Tampa the first week. Renting a van from Tampa to Orlando was a pain but everything else was a great experience. I have this "thing" though - I really want to go sometime when I can get fresh squeezed OJ!!! Laura Laura... try 19 mos., 3.5 years, 5, 6, and 16 for a while. Wanna fly back down to Florida for a while? You'll wonder who acts the oldest... the 16-year-old teenager or the 3.5-year-old girl. shalom slade
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Bruce, I agree with most of what you said. I am aware that we are the church (Body of Christ), and I have always been bothered by building church buildings with all the mortgages, etc. It seems like one solution to large groups needing to meet, and I'm not ready to condemn it all just because home churches may be superior in most ways. I'll have to think about ALL of your points later (when I'm not watching after a 1, 3, and 5 year old!) Currently the older two are watching a video, and 1 year old is having fun pulling everything out of the food pantry (and eating some of it), and Grandfather is getting his nap after taking the older two to eat and bounce happily at the McDonald's Fun Place!!! This morning the 5 yr old, Gretchen, got up at the crack of dawn and I heard her walking around the house. So I sleepily dragged myself out of bed to check on her. I walked into the living room to find her smiling happily at me and asking, Grandmother, what are you doing up so early? I have learned that when you can't find the 1 year old you should check in the dog crate. The most exciting moment (so far) was yesterday morning when I opened the back patio door to let the dogs out and a skink (lizard to me!) ran into the kitchen! So little Sammie the teeniest dachshund in the world fiercely attacked it and bit off it's tail! So the skink is running around one way and its tail is wiggling around the other way, and the dog is trying to eat them both--Grandfather had to come to the rescue!!! Just wait--your day is coming, Grandpa Bruce! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Good morning Izzy, In response to my statement:Since the new covenant made the first old, decayed and ready to vanish away (Heb.8:13) neither Jews nor Gentiles have any direction from God to construct any sort of temple or sanctuary for gatherings of new covenant saints!. You responded:So you believe that the whole OT is null and void now? Funny, I was under the impression that the first century Believers (including Jesus) worshipped at temples, honored the Sabbath, and believed that Torah was eternal. But now it is vanished away? Maybe it was the apostate papal RCC that vanished it--I don't think the Lord did. As for me, neither of the Lord's Covenants are done away with--His OT and NT is written on my heart of flesh, rather than a heart of stone. I think I need to clarify a few things here: (1)What we have traditionally called the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi) and the New Testament (Matthew to Revelation) is a use of terms in a way that God never uses them! Genesis to Malachi is referred to in scripture as the scriptures, the law etc, but never the old testament/covenant. So when I use the term old covenant I try to use it in it's scriptural sense, of the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai. It was a conditional covenant based on Israel's acceptance of God's terms. See Ex.24:1-8 God has made at least nine covenants throughout history and each one is signified with a manifest token. That token lasts as long as the covenant. The first unconditional covenant was made with Noah and all flesh in Gen.9. It was signified by the rainbow and is still in force today. God also made an unconditional covenant with Abraham (Gen.17). That covenant was signified with circumcision of Abraham's male descendants, and it also continues forever, as will circumcision of Jews and Arabs. But the covenant made at Sinai was signified with the visible token of the sprinkling of blood of animal sacrifice. That covenant ended with the sacrifice of Christ and the rending of the vail of the temple. It is not me or the RCC that vanished that covenant! God did! Heb.8:13 says, In that He (God) saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (2) The new covenant is NOT Matthew to Revelation! The new covenant was made at Calvary. So actually almost all the events of the Gospel records are under the old covenant. Much of the Lord Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is teaching relative to relationships that would be true when He had dedicated the new covenant. But the use of temple buildings which He called My Father's house was an old covenant practice. The vail was rent when Jesus died indicating that God no longer dwelt in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24) and that the way of access into the holiest was now made open through the blood of Christ (Heb.10:19-22) (3)Under the old covenant, one always had to be in the right PLACE to worship God. God always had His dwelling in PLACES! But the major feature of the new covenant is that God's dwelling is now in PEOPLE. That is why we can worship Him anywhere at all...WE ARE THE TEMPLE! That is why many believers who recognize
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Since the new covenant made the firstold, decayed and ready to vanish away (Heb.8:13) neither Jews nor Gentileshave any direction from God to construct any sort of "temple" or "sanctuary"for gatherings of new covenant saints! Bruce, So you believe that the whole OT is null and void now? Funny, I was under the impression that the first century Believers (including Jesus) worshipped at temples, honored the Sabbath, and believed that Torah was eternal. But now it is "vanished away"? Maybe it was the apostate papal RCC that "vanished" it--I don't think the Lord did. As for me, neither of the Lord's Covenants aredone away with--His OT and NT is written on my heart of flesh, rather than a heart of stone. "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us; for after that He had said before, This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put MY LAWS(Torah) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Heb 10:15) We can look forward to the Messianic Age (New Millenium) when, "...many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go for THE LAW (Torah), and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem." ((Is 2:3) However, I agree that Jesus is our real "Sanctuary" today. I find it interesting that you think that we can worship just about anywhere, except in a "church" building. If one can worship in a prison, why not in a church? :-) Seems like if we are in Him, we can even worship in a church. LOL! Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
"ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce, So you believe that the whole OT is null and void now? Funny, I was under the impression that the first century Believers (including Jesus) worshipped at temples, honored the Sabbath, and believed that Torah was eternal. But now it is "vanished away"? Maybe it was the apostate papal RCC that "vanished" it--I don't think the Lord did. Good Morning Grandmother Izzy: Judy here (another nanny) Possibly Brucerefers to the ritual law which isfulfilled in Christ... Izzy: As for me, neither of the Lord's Covenants aredone away with--His OT and NT is written on my heart of flesh, rather than a heart of stone.Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us; for after that He had said before, This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put MY LAWS(Torah) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Heb 10:15) We can look forward to the Messianic Age (New Millenium) when, "...many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go for THE LAW (Torah), and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem." ((Is 2:3) However, I agree that Jesus is our real "Sanctuary" today. I find it interesting that you think that we can worship just about anywhere, except in a "church" building. If one can worship in a prison, why not in a church? :-) Seems like if we are in Him, we can even worship in a church. LOL! Judy: Amen tothe above Izzy.. I am blessed by your understanding and that of Kay. Where do you find these Messianic places of worship? I'm in fellowship with other believers but none live close enough for us to have a weekly time of worship together so I cautiously began to visit a local IC; the people were friendly andthe pastor down to earth and appeared to love the Lord so I was beginning to become hopeful.I noticed it was becoming a bit sparse on Sundays and the SS teacher was absent - being new I assumed ppl were on vacation until I met one of the ladies at Walmart on Saturday and learned there had been a church split. I learned that the pastor fired his co-pastor for trying to help the deacons become more spiritual (whatever that means). There appears to have been a power struggle of some kind and now most of the more mature ones are gone including several husband/wife Sunday School teachers. Nowwhat to do from here Grace and Peace, Judy
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
I would like to address several of the comments made about house church and institutional church. I think my perspective falls somewhere between the extremes expressed. I perceive that God works in both. I also perceive that Satan works in both. Man also works in both. :-) So you won't find me saying that home church is the ONLY way to fellowship with saints. Nevertheless, there are many things wrong with the institutional system but they only cause real problems when people mature to the point that they become ministers, teachers, and preachers of Christ themselves. The less spiritually mature can function in many institutional church settings without any problems at all. In fact, for the immature believer, an institutional church might even be better than a home church. Yet, even so, some very mature believers can function in the institutional churches just fine, depending upon their calling in Christ and the particular institutional churches ability to receive this person's gift in Christ. I find that modern apostles and prophets can rarely if ever exist in any institutional church these days. The power struggles that exist between them and the clergy ultimately cause them to be cast out of the institutional churches. That's why many who attend institutional churches do not know apostles and prophets like the early church did. Well, I could go on to write a book about this (lol), but this is not the place. Let me simply address Izzy's comment about needing the covering of her church to have believers fellowship in her home. If you feel that you must have someone supervise you and hold your hand to open your home for Christian fellowship and Bible study, then certainly you should do that. But consider also that one day you should be mature enough to do that under the headship of Christ. Is he not your Lord and master? If he leads you personally in the path of eternal life, is he not able to lead you in this too? As children eventually must cut the strings with their parents and live life on their own, so we ought to mature in a way that causes us to reproduce and do that which our spiritual mentors have done. Some people are like 40 year old men still living with their parents. Here you are a grandmother and published author, yet you are unable to open your home to believers and trust the Lord to provide the leadership? If you haven't left the nest yet, when is it going to happen? Now if you do opt for a human covering instead of a divine covering, know this, that eventually, you will find that covering restrictive and a hindrance to the leadership of the Holy Spirit. Just as a teenager matures and finds his parent's rules restrictive and difficult, you will experience similar frustrations, and when it comes time to leave the nest so-to-speak, they will lay a guilt trip on you that you are breaking fellowship with the church, leaving your covering, etc. Therefore, seek the Lord now about it and ask his wisdom about this need you have for an institutional covering. I think you would do better to step out in faith, asking the Lord to send the leadership, calling those whom God puts on your heart to supply that leadership, and let the Lord Jesus Christ Himself be the head of the assembly that meets in your home. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hello Fellow Saints (and
Chris)!
Let me put it this way--I, as a
female woman-person, do not feel that I am an appropriate Leader of a Church
Body. However, my husband and I have had the desire to have a fellowship
of some kind meeting in our home. He does not seem comfortable, either, in
assuming Leadership of such a body. We think it would be better to do it
under the covering of our church, but haven't gotten around to setting that up.
That's where we are. So pray for the Lord's leading if you
wish..
Izzy
PS We are currently
braver than any African missionaries: We are taking care of our 3 little Georgia
Peaches while their parents are getting a much needed 2nd honeymoon away from
home. It takes GREAT courage to assume responsiblity for 3 granddaughters
ages 5 and under--and is also more fun than a barrel of monkeys!!! (Don't tell
if we have ice cream for breakfast!) :-)
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry
CliftonSent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:01 AMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy:
Our church has no pastor. Many home churches have no
pastor. The church at Antioch of Pisidia had no pastor. We are ALL
priests. Remember reading that? We are led by the Holy
Spirit.
You can do it man's way, or you can do it the Lord's
way. I have tried both. The Lord's way is better.
Terry
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:45
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified
pastor. J Izzy
-Original
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry
LockeSent: Thursday, July
31, 2003 11:42 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but
I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your
friends to attend!
From: "ShieldsFamily"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500
Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off
the issue of home churches.
To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find
(impossible?). So many "home
churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention the
one I have in mind at this
moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard
to discern whether it is
even safe to try one out.
Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an
organized setting than not
at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good
stuff happening! We worship
at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic
synagogue on Saturday. Do you
think it was wrong of Jews to have temples
(other than the one in
Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have
confined themselves to home
churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st
Century Believers worshipped in
temples/synagogues? Izzy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Hi Laura,
You wrote:"Believe me if my church taught false
doctrine I'd be looking for
another place to worship."
Dear Sister, does your church teach and
practice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor?
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the
church?
-that the church building is to be maintained
from the collection which
scripture says is to be for poor saints?
-that believers are to tithe to support the
pastor and the church programs?
-that in regular church gatherings the
congregation is to be silent and
listen to sermons from the pastor?
-that church members are to be accountable to
the pastor or other church
leaders?
If any of these doctrines are believed and
taught in your church, there is
very prominent false doctrine. (All of these
practices are not only
unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!)
The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head.
Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the
sheep! Sheph
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Slade, Were you the facilitator? How's
Florida? I bet you aren't far from the Millers. Izzy
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Slade
HensonSent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:46 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
The best organized experience I had was in a
home church as well... in Wisconsin. We had a "facilitator" who helped keep us
on track and who would study the passage before hand and have a number of
small topics to discuss, but we all would take turns reading the passage aloud
together (we followed the Rabbinical Torah cycle) and openly discuss it. It
was kosher for one to interrupt the person reading a passage so we could
discuss a verse or passage immediately, as opposed to waiting until the whole
portion was read (because we had many who would forget their questions or
comments).
shalom
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Terry Clifton
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 01 August, 2003
08:01
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy:
Our church has no pastor. Many home churches have no
pastor. The church at Antioch of Pisidia had no pastor. We are
ALL priests. Remember reading that? We are led by the Holy
Spirit.
You can do it man's way, or you can do it the Lord's
way. I have tried both. The Lord's way is better.
Terry
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:45
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified
pastor. J Izzy
-Original
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry
LockeSent: Thursday,
July 31, 2003 11:42 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but
I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your
friends to attend!
From: "ShieldsFamily"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500
Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off
the issue of home churches.
To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find
(impossible?). So many "home
churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention
the one I have in mind at this
moment, but you know who he is!), making it
hard to discern whether it is
even safe to try one out.
Meantime, I think it is better to worship in
an organized setting than not
at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good
stuff happening! We worship
at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic
synagogue on Saturday. Do you
think it was wrong of Jews to have temples
(other than the one in
Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have
confined themselves to home
churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st
Century Believers worshipped in
temples/synagogues? Izzy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Hi Laura,
You wrote:"Believe me if my church taught
false doctrine I'd be looking for
another place to worship."
Dear Sister, does your church teach and
practice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor?
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the
church?
-that the church building is to be maintained
from the collection which
scripture says is to be for poor saints?
-that believers are to tithe to support the
pastor and the church programs?
-that in regular church gatherings the
congregation is to be silent and
listen to sermons from the pastor?
-that church members are to be accountable to
the pastor or other church
leaders?
If a
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Grandma Izzy! Georgia peaches and ice cream make a great breakfast! My wife and I are enjoying our first grandchild at every opportunity we get, a beautiful 5 month old bundle of joy! What a treasure they are! You wrote:Let me put it this way--I, as a female woman-person, do not feel that I am an appropriate Leader of a Church Body. However, my husband and I have had the desire to have a fellowship of some kind meeting in our home. He does not seem comfortable, either, in assuming Leadership of such a body. We think it would be better to do it under the covering of our church, but haven't gotten around to setting that up. That's where we are. So pray for the Lord's leading if you wish.. Dear Sister, NO ONE, male or female and no matter how spiritually mature or gifted is an appropriate Leader of a Church Body! To assume that one is capable of such a task is to assume that one is capable of usurping the the place of Christ whom God has made Head of the Body! God has already appointed an appropriate Leader for every gathering, namely Christ, and the Lord Jesus, Himself, has promised to be there in our midst when even 2 or 3 gather in His name! (Matthew 18:20) See the following scriptures: Ephesians 1:15-23: the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory... hath put all things under his feet, AND GAVE HIM TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS TO THE CHURCH, WHICH IS HIS BODY , the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 4:11-16: Whom did Christ give? And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers Why did He give such gifts? For the perfecting of the saints, Why do saints need perfecting? for the work of the ministry What is the purpose of the work of the ministry? for the edifying of the body of Christ: How long is the Body to be edified? Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Why is such maturity necessary? That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, MAY GROW UP INTO HIM IN ALL THINGS, WHICH IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Colossians 1:18: And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. The sad thing is that when mortal men are appointed to be leaders, a number of detrimental things happen: -they usurp the place of Christ, -they prevent the exercise of the gifts which Christ has placed in the Body (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) -they assume that their job description is 3 fold:-perfecting the saints, -doing the work of ministry and -edifying the Body of Christ! -because that assumption is utterly false, none of those things actually get done! It takes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ALL doing their work TO PERFECT (or mature) the saints! Then it is God's purpose that THE SAINTS do the work of the ministry! Only when the saints do the work of the ministry is the Body actually edified!!! Dear Sister, are you sure that it is God's desire and intention that you do anything UNDER THE COVERING of YOUR CHURCH?? What scripture(s) would teach such a concept? What does it mean (scripturally) to be under the covering of one's church?? I realize this concept of being under a covering has become a very popular teaching designed to enslave people to the assumed authority of men who pattern themselves after the leadership style of the kings of the Gentiles instead of after the
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Izzy,
Slade was the facilitator at that
congregation. His official "title" was Ra'ah which means Shepherd. It's still up
and running and growing as a matter of fact. He just oversees it now; someone
else leads.
Florida is very warm, but we have friends and
family down here. We're attending an excellent Messianic Congregation lead by
Rav John Fischer. It's so nice to be back in fellowship again with like-minded
Believers who have similar services to what we had at Am Echad in Wisconsin. And
we don't have to do the leading, to boot!!
Slade got a job as soon as we got down (a good
paying one, too!) and I've been offered quite a position doing family advocacy.
The blessings are so numerous...we MUST be in the right place! Slade begins
seminary the end of the month; our house is great, we have family close by,
numerous friends; basically it's good to be home.
Slade said we're like 100 miles from the
Miller's.
How are things by you?
Kay
shalom
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 03 August, 2003 08:37
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Slade, Were you the facilitator? How's
Florida? I bet you aren't far from the Millers. Izzy
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Slade
HensonSent: Friday, August 01, 2003 8:46 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House
Churches
The best organized experience I had was in
a home church as well... in Wisconsin. We had a "facilitator" who helped
keep us on track and who would study the passage before hand and have a
number of small topics to discuss, but we all would take turns reading the
passage aloud together (we followed the Rabbinical Torah cycle) and openly
discuss it. It was kosher for one to interrupt the person reading a passage
so we could discuss a verse or passage immediately, as opposed to waiting
until the whole portion was read (because we had many who would forget their
questions or comments).
shalom
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Terry Clifton
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 01 August, 2003
08:01
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy:
Our church has no pastor. Many home churches have
no pastor. The church at Antioch of Pisidia had no pastor. We
are ALL priests. Remember reading that? We are led by the Holy
Spirit.
You can do it man's way, or you can do it the Lord's
way. I have tried both. The Lord's way is better.
Terry
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:45
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified
pastor. J Izzy
-Original
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry
LockeSent: Thursday,
July 31, 2003 11:42 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy, you say home churches are hard to
find...but I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you
and your friends to attend!
From: "ShieldsFamily"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500
Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten
off the issue of home churches.
To me they are the ideal, but not easy to
find (impossible?). So many "home
churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention
the one I have in mind at this
moment, but you know who he is!), making it
hard to discern whether it is
even safe to try one out.
Meantime, I think it is better to worship
in an organized setting than not
at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of
good stuff happening! We worship
at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic
synagogue on Saturday. Do you
think it was wrong of Jews to have temples
(other than the one in
Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have
confined themselves to home
churches? Don't yo
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Kay I just got back from Florida and was about 80 miles from the Miller's. You are right about it being warm!!! LOL They have some wonderful light shows in the form of thunder and lightening too! Glad you are near friends and family. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Bruce,Hi Grandma Izzy!Excuse me, but it is "Grandmother". :-) (Don't confuse me with thegrannies in the family.)Georgia peaches and ice cream make a great breakfast! My wife and I areenjoying our first grandchild at every opportunity we get, a beautiful 5month old bundle of joy! What a treasure they are! Girl or Boy?Ephesians 4:11-16:Whom did Christ give?" And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastorsAnd what, in your estimation, is a "pastor"? byIt takes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ALL doingtheir work TO PERFECT (or mature) the saints!Then it is God's purpose that THE SAINTS do the work of the ministry!Only when the saints do the work of the ministry is the Body actuallyedified!!! Agreed. But why would that eliminate a "church" in the traditional sense? Perhaps that is why churches also have small groups meeting in homes. I agree it is difficult to establish real relationships in a traditional church setting with the artificial "greeters" and everyone says "Hi" and "Bye" with a big smile, and you never see them again until next Sunday. That's one reason I love my small Messianic synagogue meeting on Saturday. It goes on for hours (no one counts) and involves real teaching with interaction, ministry by the saints, gifts of the spirit (including real healings such as throat cancer, etc.),children welcome, and sharing meals, etc. It's like a home meeting in a building large enough to hold more people. If I had to choose just one, the Sunday church thing would be the first to go. Dear Sister, are you sure that it is God's desire and intention that you doanything "UNDER THE COVERING of YOUR CHURCH"??What scripture(s) would teach such a concept? What does it mean(scripturally) to be "under the covering of one's church"?? I realize thisconcept of "being under a covering" has become a very popular teachingdesigned to enslave people to the assumed "authority" of men who patternthemselves after the leadership style of the kings of the Gentiles insteadof after the pattern commanded by the lord jesus, Himself (Luke 22:25,26) Oh, goodie--I can't wait to tell my husband that I am not under his covering! :-) Grandmother Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Grandmother! I'm the Gramma on the list. I thought 2,4 and 9 were a handful- 3 under 5 sounds like a nightmare!!! Just kidding. I love my girls and if I could lower the volume level I'd be content!!! I'm anxious to find out whose covering you are under. I don't have a hubby and if I'm not supposed to be under the covering of my church I wonder whose covering I'm under ! LOL Laura Grandmother Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Grandmother Izzy, Please pardon my improper designation of your relation to your little peaches! Our grandchild is a little girl, Marika. You asked:What in your estimation is a pastor? First of all, the singular form of the word is NEVER used in scripture to designate any other identifiable individuals except ABEL (the first shepherd when there only was one of them) and the Lord or Christ!! So the vast majority of times the word is used it speaks of a plurality of shepherds even when there is a singular flock. (See Luke 2:8 as one example.) Pastors are shepherds of sheep. Their role is not to be king, CEO, president, director, chief administrator, baker or chef etc. Shepherds smell like sheep! Shepherds know the sheep. But shepherds are never hired by sheep, fired by sheep or salaried by sheep! But shepherds are loved by the sheep and followed by the sheep. A man may be salaried, may be called pastor etc, but if there are no sheep following him, he is not a pastor. Shepherds need not be public speakers or gifted administrators, but they do know the Owner of the sheep and have a heart to care for His sheep. When I spoke of the five kinds of gifted men God has given to the church as being responsible to perfect the saints so the saints can do the work of the ministry, so the Body can be edified, you asked:But why would that eliminate a church in the traditional sense? Izzy, I think you answered your own question as you described the contrasts between what happens in traditional church services and what happens in more informal house meetings. Equipping of saints to do the work of the ministry just DOES NOT HAPPEN in gatherings where they are expected to be uninvolved spectators. When I suggested that the very common teaching that people are to be under the covering of a church or of a church leader was not at all a scriptural teaching, you responded:Oh, goodie--I can't wait to tell my husband that I am not under his covering! Neither, you nor any other woman was ever under the covering of their husband nor any other man! But just as God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of the man, so the man (husband) is also head of the woman. The covering is what the man is to remove from his head when he prays or prophesies and is what the woman is to put ON her head when she prays or prophesies. What the man is to do with his head (uncover it) and what the woman is to do with hers (cover it) both teach the very same truth! What they are instructed to do with their physical heads while praying and prophesying is an object lesson for the angels which demonstrates that Christ (the head of the man) is to have the pre-eminent place (uncovered). Col.1:18 The man (the head of the woman) is NOT to have pre-eminence! Thus, her physical head is to be covered. That's the only covering in scripture that I know of that God would have you to be under! Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
It probably offered a salary. shalom e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 01 August, 2003 21:43 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches [g:] why did he do *that*? On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:04:29 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the best church experience I ever had was in a Wonderful home church. I wont elaborate on all the reasons why. However *the leader of that church took a pastorate in a church building*,
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
will help you to see that you have probably particpated in house church meetings far more often than you realize!!! Why not go in for making it a purposeful act whenever you are with other saints??? Your brother in Christ, Bruce -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship. Dear Sister, does your church teach and ractice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head.Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another place We are not called to find a place! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to house etc etc. Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some among them who are in need, give to them. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another. The hallmark of new covenant ministry of saints is reciprocal one anothering! Loving one another, praying for one another, confessing faults one to another, edifying one another, exhorting one another, bearing one another's burdens etc etc. Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
I'm back - I was away on church related business and then a vacation to the forbidden land! Both weeks were great! I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with you worshipping in a "home setting". Whatever floats your boat! I would have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Laura, Welcome back! You wrote: I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with you worshipping in a home setting. Whatever floats your boat!I would have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship. Dear Sister, Is our happiness with a situation the benchmark that should guide us in our Christian lives and walk with the Lord and His people? If Abraham had said to the Lord, I'm quite happy here in Ur of the Chaldees, I'd rather not head off somewhere in the desert not knowing where I'm going! or I'm quite happy to stay home and not take Isaac up to mount Moriah, do you think he would have enjoyed the blessing of God on His life that God had intended? In like manner, thousands of Christians are quite happy to stay within a situation that is familiar and comfortable even though they are well aware that many things about that situation are contrary to scripture. I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have indicated are held and practiced in your church. There is a massive difference between happiness based on a familiar comfort zone and joy that is based on obedience to what one knows God has convicted them about in His Word. The safest, most secure, and most joyful place in all the universe is the place of obedience to Him. Here's a very funny but serious song about someone who is concerned to maintain their comfort zone and totally unwilling to obey the Lord if he should call them into the unknown PLEASE DON'T SEND ME TO AFRICA O Lord I'm your willing servant You know that I have been for years I'm here in this pew every Sunday and Wednesday I've stained it with many a tear I've given you years of my service I've always given my best And I've never asked you for anything much So Lord I deserve this request Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at night I'll see that the money is gathered I'll see that the money is sent I'll wash and stack the communion cups I'll tithe 11 percent I'll volunteer for the nursery I'll go on the youth retreat I'll usher, I'll deacon, I'll go door to door Just let me keep warming this seat Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at night Are homes the only place to worship? Of course, homes are not the only place believers can worship the Lord! Saints can do it beside a river (Acts 16), they can do it with their backs beaten and bloodied in stocks in filthy prisons (Acts 16), they can do it as a little band of travelling evangelists in a room of the lodging house where they have their temporary abode (Acts 20), they can do it as lonely prisoners on board ship with a mob of unbelievers around them (Acts 27). But you will search the the new covenant scriptures in vain to find saints gathering in temples, sanctuaries, auditoriums etc which they have bought or built for the purpose! You will search in vain to find new covenant saints gathering to listen to a clergyman preach them a sermon. You will search in vain to find new covenant saints tithing to pay the salary of their clergyman or the mortgage on their sanctuary. And you will search in vain to find any flock of sheep in scripture hiring their pastors, paying their pastors' salaries or firing their pastors! Those are all the responsibilities of the Owner of the sheep! New covenant church always function by new covenant principles. Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 8/2/2003 4:37:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Laura, Welcome back! You wrote: "I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with you worshipping in a "home setting". Whatever floats your boat! I would have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship." Dear Sister, Is our "happiness" with a situation the benchmark that should guide us in our Christian lives and walk with the Lord and His people? If Abraham had said to the Lord, "I'm quite happy here in Ur of the Chaldees, I'd rather not head off somewhere in the desert not knowing where I'm going!" or "I'm quite happy to stay home and not take Isaac up to mount Moriah", do you think he would have enjoyed the blessing of God on His life that God had intended? In like manner, thousands of Christians are quite happy to stay within a situation that is familiar and comfortable even though they are well aware that many things about that situation are contrary to scripture. I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have indicated are held and practiced in your church. There is a massive difference between happiness based on a familiar comfort zone and joy that is based on obedience to what one knows God has convicted them about in His Word. The safest, most secure, and most joyful place in all the universe is the place of obedience to Him. Here's a very funny but serious song about someone who is concerned to maintain their comfort zone and totally unwilling to obey the Lord if he should call them into the unknown PLEASE DON'T SEND ME TO AFRICA O Lord I'm your willing servant You know that I have been for years I'm here in this pew every Sunday and Wednesday I've stained it with many a tear I've given you years of my service I've always given my best And I've never asked you for anything much So Lord I deserve this request Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at night I'll see that the money is gathered I'll see that the money is sent I'll wash and stack the communion cups I'll tithe 11 percent I'll volunteer for the nursery I'll go on the youth retreat I'll usher, I'll deacon, I'll go door to door Just let me keep warming this seat Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at night Are homes the only place to worship? Of course, homes are not the only place believers can worship the Lord! Saints can do it beside a river (Acts 16), they can do it with their backs beaten and bloodied in stocks in filthy prisons (Acts 16), they can do it as a little band of travelling evangelists in a room of the lodging house where they have their temporary abode (Acts 20), they can do it as lonely prisoners on board ship with a mob of unbelievers around them (Acts 27). But you will search the the new covenant scriptures in vain to find saints gathering in temples, sanctuaries, auditoriums etc which they have bought or built for the purpose! You will search in vain to find new covenant saints gathering to listen to a clergyman preach them a "sermon". You will search in vain to find new covenant saints tithing to pay the salary of their clergyman or the mortgage on their sanctuary. And you will search in vain to find any flock of sheep in scripture hiring their pastors, paying their pastors' salaries or firing their pastors! Those are all the responsibilities of the Owner of the sheep! New covenant church always function by new covenant principles. Your brother in Christ, Bruce OK Let me rephrase that! GOD has not told me to change my method of worship! And I love that song. My son was a missionary to Africa 10 years ago this summer. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
What right do you have to say that my church has many false teachings and practices? Laura I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have indicated are held and practiced in your church.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Laura, You wrote:OK Let me rephrase that! GOD has not told me to change my method of worship! The point is not whether He told you to change, but rather did He give you scriptural guidance to commence your current method of worship in the first place? In other words is the system, in which you currently participate, patterned after new covenant principles or those of the old covenant which has decayed, waxed old and vanished away? Heb.8:13 When I wrote:I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have indicated are held and practiced in your church You responded:What right do you have to say that my church has many false teachings and practices? Please correct and pardon me if I am wrong, but I thought it was you who told us that your church paid a pastor and he earned every cent. I think that that was in response to the following questions which I asked you. But if I recall, you had not responded to the rest of these questions. If these things are not true of your present gathering, I ask you to forgive me for making false assumptions. But if you answer yes to any of the following questions, it is clear that your church does in fact teach and practice false doctrine. The following is what I'd previously written: You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship. Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Laura: God has given you overwhelming evidence in His word. He has told you how to gather with other believers and be the Church. He has spoken.You simply won't listen. Terry - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches In a message dated 8/2/2003 4:37:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Laura,Welcome back!You wrote: "I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with you worshipping in a "home setting". Whatever floats your boat! I would have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship."Dear Sister, Is our "happiness" with a situation the benchmark that should guide us in our Christian lives and walk with the Lord and His people? If Abraham had said to the Lord, "I'm quite happy here in Ur of the Chaldees, I'd rather not head off somewhere in the desert not knowing where I'm going!" or "I'm quite happy to stay home and not take Isaac up to mount Moriah", do you think he would have enjoyed the blessing of God on His life that God had intended?In like manner, thousands of Christians are quite happy to stay within a situation that is familiar and comfortable even though they are well aware that many things about that situation are contrary to scripture.I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have indicated are held and practiced in your church.There is a massive difference between happiness based on a familiar comfort zone and joy that is based on obedience to what one knows God has convicted them about in His Word. The safest, most secure, and most joyful place in all the universe is the place of obedience to Him.Here's a very funny but serious song about someone who is concerned to maintain their comfort zone and totally unwilling to obey the Lord if he should call them into the unknownPLEASE DON'T SEND ME TO AFRICAO Lord I'm your willing servant You know that I have been for years I'm here in this pew every Sunday and Wednesday I've stained it with many a tear I've given you years of my service I've always given my best And I've never asked you for anything much So Lord I deserve this request Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at night I'll see that the money is gathered I'll see that the money is sent I'll wash and stack the communion cups I'll tithe 11 percent I'll volunteer for the nursery I'll go on the youth retreat I'll usher, I'll deacon, I'll go door to door Just let me keep warming this seat Chorus: Please don't send me to Africa I don't think I've got what it takes I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes I'll serve you here in suburbia In my comfortable middle class life But please don't send me out in the bush Where the natives are restless at nightAre homes the only place to worship?Of course, homes are not the only place believers can worship the Lord! Saints can do it beside a river (Acts 16), they can do it with their backs beaten and bloodied in stocks in filthy prisons (Acts 16), they can do it as a little band of travelling evangelists in a room of the lodging house where they have their temporary abode (Acts 20), they can do it as lonely prisoners on board ship with a mob of unbelievers around them (Acts 27).But you will search the the new covenant scriptures in vain to find saints gathering in temples, sanctuaries, auditoriums etc which they have bought or built for the purpose! You will search in vain to find new covenant saints gathering to listen to a clergyman preach them a "sermon". You will search in vain to find new covenant saints tithing to pay the salary of their clergyman or the mortgage on their sanctuary. And you will search in vain to find any flock of sheep in scripture hiring their pastors, paying their pastors' salaries or firing their pastors! Those are all the responsibilities of the Owner of the sheep!New covenant church always function by new covenant principles.Your brother in Christ,BruceOK Let me rephrase that! GOD has not told me to change my method of worship! And I love that song. M
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
None of you have any idea where I worship and how I worship and how my church functions. You are jumping to conclusions. I refuse to be pulled in. Laura Laura: God has given you overwhelming evidence in His word. He has told you how to gather with other believers and be the Church. He has spoken. You simply won't listen. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
No, you refuse to be pulled out. Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches None of you have any idea where I worship and how I worship and how my church functions. You are jumping to conclusions. I refuse to be pulled in. Laura Laura:God has given you overwhelming evidence in His word. He has told you how to gather with other believers and be the Church. He has spoken. You simply won't listen. Terry IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:39:31 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The point is not whether He told you to change, but rather did He give you scriptural guidance to commence your current "method of worship" in the first place? Yes God opened doors for me to be able to move here and it is a long story but I have no doubt that I am worshipping where the Lord wants me. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified pastor. J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your friends to attend! From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500 Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off the issue of home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). So many home churches are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out. Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good stuff happening! We worship at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic synagogue on Saturday. Do you think it was wrong of Jews to have temples (other than the one in Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have confined themselves to home churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st Century Believers worshipped in temples/synagogues? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship. Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head. Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another place We are not called to find a place! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to house etc etc. Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some among them who are in need, give to them. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye h
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified pastor. J Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your friends to attend! From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500 Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off the issue of home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). So many home churches are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out. Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good stuff happening! We worship at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic synagogue on Saturday. Do you think it was wrong of Jews to have temples (other than the one in Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have confined themselves to home churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st Century Believers worshipped in temples/synagogues? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship. Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head. Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another place We are not called to find a place! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to house etc etc. Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some among them who are in need, give to them. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye h
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy: Our church has no pastor. Many home churches have no pastor. The church at Antioch of Pisidia had no pastor. We are ALL priests. Remember reading that? We are led by the Holy Spirit. You can do it man's way, or you can do it the Lord's way. I have tried both. The Lord's way is better. Terry - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches But Im not a qualified pastor. J Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry LockeSent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:42 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your friends to attend! From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500 Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off the issue of home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). So many "home churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out. Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good stuff happening! We worship at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic synagogue on Saturday. Do you think it was wrong of Jews to have temples (other than the one in Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have confined themselves to home churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st Century Believers worshipped in temples/synagogues? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:"Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship." Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head. Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another "place" We are not called to find a "place"! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
The best organized experience I had was in a
home church as well... in Wisconsin. We had a "facilitator" who helped keep us
on track and who would study the passage before hand and have a number of small
topics to discuss, but we all would take turns reading the passage aloud
together (we followed the Rabbinical Torah cycle) and openly discuss it. It was
kosher for one to interrupt the person reading a passage so we could discuss a
verse or passage immediately, as opposed to waiting until the whole portion was
read (because we had many who would forget their questions or
comments).
shalom
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Terry Clifton
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 01 August, 2003 08:01
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Izzy:
Our church has no pastor. Many home churches have no
pastor. The church at Antioch of Pisidia had no pastor. We are ALL
priests. Remember reading that? We are led by the Holy
Spirit.
You can do it man's way, or you can do it the Lord's
way. I have tried both. The Lord's way is better.
Terry
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 5:45
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
But Im not a qualified
pastor. J Izzy
-Original
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry
LockeSent: Thursday, July
31, 2003 11:42 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical
Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but
I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your
friends to attend!
From: "ShieldsFamily"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500
Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off
the issue of home churches.
To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find
(impossible?). So many "home
churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention the
one I have in mind at this
moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard
to discern whether it is
even safe to try one out.
Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an
organized setting than not
at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good
stuff happening! We worship
at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic
synagogue on Saturday. Do you
think it was wrong of Jews to have temples
(other than the one in
Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have
confined themselves to home
churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st
Century Believers worshipped in
temples/synagogues? Izzy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues
relative to House Churches
Hi Laura,
You wrote:"Believe me if my church taught false
doctrine I'd be looking for
another place to worship."
Dear Sister, does your church teach and
practice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor?
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the
church?
-that the church building is to be maintained
from the collection which
scripture says is to be for poor saints?
-that believers are to tithe to support the
pastor and the church programs?
-that in regular church gatherings the
congregation is to be silent and
listen to sermons from the pastor?
-that church members are to be accountable to
the pastor or other church
leaders?
If any of these doctrines are believed and
taught in your church, there is
very prominent false doctrine. (All of these
practices are not only
unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!)
The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head.
Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the
sheep! Shepherds are
appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their
needs are met as they labour
with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35
New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings
to maintain! Collections
are f
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
[g:] why did he do *that*? On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:04:29 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the best church experience I ever had was in a Wonderful home church. I wont elaborate on all the reasons why. However *the leader of that church took a pastorate in a church building*,
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off the issue of home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). So many home churches are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out. Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good stuff happening! We worship at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic synagogue on Saturday. Do you think it was wrong of Jews to have temples (other than the one in Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have confined themselves to home churches? Dont you think the Original, 1st Century Believers worshipped in temples/synagogues? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship. Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head. Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another place We are not called to find a place! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to house etc etc. Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some among them who are in need, give to them. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another. The hallmark of new covenant ministry of saints is reciprocal one anothering! Loving one another, praying for one another, confessing faults one to another, edifying one another, exhorting one another, bear one another's burdens etc etc. Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
g, I guess for your sake I should explain that the best church experience I ever had was in a Wonderful home church. I wont elaborate on all the reasons why. However the leader of that church took a pastorate in a church building, and that was the end of that. I have never found another one to match it. And I have heard too many horror stories about weirdos running their own home churches and getting off into all kinds of nuttinessso I am cautious about getting into that kind of situation. If someone could direct me to another group to compare with the one I went to before, Id be happy to check it out. g, does that help you any? If this is still incomprehensible to you, let me know and Ill try to splain it to you. (It seems to me that I make a whole lot more sense that you dobut thats just my opinion. J ) Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). [g:] then it's fair to conclude that most Christians, who don't think like you do, are relatively wise--i.e. the Christian consensusappears to be that home churches are not ideal this strange comment tends to confirm it: *So many home churches are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out.* || - || Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. [g:] ftr, this last comment of yours is (also)irrational at best
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Izzy, you say home churches are hard to find...but I'll bet there'sone in your living room just waiting for you and your friends to attend! From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:32:00 -0500 Bruce, regretfully we seem to have gotten off the issue of home churches. To me they are the ideal, but not easy to find (impossible?). So many "home churches" are run by kooks (I won't mention the one I have in mind at this moment, but you know who he is!), making it hard to discern whether it is even safe to try one out. Meantime, I think it is better to worship in an organized setting than not at all. It isn't all bad, either--lots of good stuff happening! We worship at a non-denom on Sunday, and a Messianic synagogue on Saturday. Do you think it was wrong of Jews to have temples (other than the one in Jerusalem?). Do you think they should have confined themselves to home churches? Don't you think the Original, 1st Century Believers worshipped in temples/synagogues? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Hi Laura, You wrote:"Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for another place to worship." Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!) The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head. Shepherds are never hired, paid nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35 New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9 Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new covenant churches! When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25 All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17 But sister, please do not go looking for another "place" We are not called to find a "place"! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you were in the wrong PLACE! But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to house etc etc. Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some among them who are in need, give to them. " By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another." The hallmark of new covenant ministry of saints is reciprocal "one anothering"! Loving one another, praying for one another, confessing faults one to another, edifying one another, exhorting one another, bear one another's burdens etc etc. Your brother in Christ, Bruce
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
David Miller wrote: Laura wrote: How wrong you are. We give a huge amount to outside giving and that doesn't count ministry within the church. Hi Laura. What are the actual numbers? Do you have a financial report we could look at? DAVEH: Hey DavidM..why ask Laura? Why not just ask her minister, as I did a while back.? VBG -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Terry wrote: Very little of your money is being used for the kingdom. Most of it goes to the bank that holds the mortgage, the flower shop, the secretary, the janitor, the guy who sprays for bugs and the electric and phone company. Laura wrote: How wrong you are. We give a huge amount to outside giving and that doesn't count ministry within the church. Hi Laura. What are the actual numbers? Do you have a financial report we could look at? Most institutional churches give a small fraction to ministry related activities. Even that outside giving that you mention, how much of it is actually given to people in need? In other words, does the money pay for the home, salary, and expenses of people living in another country, or does the money directly relieve the poor? In the home church situation, a much higher percentage of money goes to need. More importantly, the need is being met on a personal level. For example, when you see your neighbor have need, you reach in your pocket and help him. You give of your time to help him too. In the institutional church situation, you send the person in need to the church staff and trust that they will help them. Rather than investing in the kingdom directly, you are investing in an organization that you trust to be doing work in the kingdom. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 7/18/2003 9:48:07 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Even that outside giving that you mention, how much of it is actually given to people in need? I do have a financial report but I don't have a scanner. 7% of outside giving for Foreign Missions goes to administrative costs. Our church gave $102,000 last year just to Foreign Missions. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Laura. What is the total budget of your church? Give some of the major breakdowns of how the money is spent. With regard to your reporting that 7% went to administrative costs, that does not mean much. Administrative costs generally do not include housing, buildings, salaries of ministers, etc. You have to check with each charity to see what goes into administrative costs, but it is standard practice to make that number as low as possible by including only postage, phone bills, office paper, etc. Ive known some charities to report 5% Administrative Costs, and then on digging deeper found that 85% of every contribution went to pay commission to telephone solicitors. That cost was not considered administrative costs. With the Salvation Army in Tampa, I dont know the exact figures off the top of my head, but most of the money was spent to buy property in prestigious neighborhoods for its officers. Their administrative costs also were low and they boasted about feeding 85,000 homeless, but most of the money was spent elsewhere. So your church spent $7,140 on administrative costs for Foreign Missions. Do you think that kind of money might have helped the homeless or people who live in the housing projects in your community? I think that is what Terry is trying to say. Why pay institutions to do this work when there are plenty of people doing this work that you can go to directly and give to them. I might add that I personally do not consider it wrong to have institutions do work like this, but you should understand what they are doing and how the money is being spent. Most people probably follow blind allegiance to a doctrine of tithing and do not examine their organization or church closely enough. Most people look at that 7% administrative cost and assume that most of the money is going to the work of ministry. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Interesting that you use Tampa as an example. I'm headed there tomorrow. Regarding money - I don't have the figures where I can put my hands on them. (The little ones are in the room where that file is kept) I didn't mean to mislead you - we give that total amount to the Foreign Missions Dept and they use a small amount for their expenses. Mail room, printing, phone etc. I believe the actual bldg is debt free but of course there is always maintanence. Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Laura wrote: Interesting that you use Tampa as an example. I'm headed there tomorrow. I lived in Tampa for 17 years and was very active in ministering to the homeless there. The Salvation Army would not let us see their financial statements because they are exempt from the Florida Sunshine laws because they are a church. So, when an anonymous person faxed them to us, I produced two television shows that discussed their finances and ministry. I hope you enjoy your vacation to Florida. I now live about 80 miles north of Tampa, near Crystal River. If you come over this way, let me know and I will take you and the kids to lunch. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 7/18/2003 5:32:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? YES With a board -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? Yes and he earns every penny -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? YES -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? The scriptures teach this -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? NO -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? Not necessarily Accountable to God
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Laura, You responded to my questions as follows: Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice: -that the church is to be lead by the pastor? YES With a board -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church? Yes and he earns every penny -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which scripture says is to be for poor saints? YES -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs? The scriptures teach this -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and listen to sermons from the pastor? NO -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church leaders? Not necessarilyAccountable to God If these are truly scriptural doctrines/practices, would you please show the scriptures that would teach these practices to new covenant believers? Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:25:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Has anyone in any religious organization or denominational church ever taught you that ALL accountability in scripture is VERTICAL! (i.e. Godward!) Absolutely I agree that it is ulitmately vertical but I am going to place my money where I know it is being used to further the Kingdom. I am not saying your "church group" is practicing false doctrine. What I am saying is that it does happen. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
In a message dated 7/17/2003 8:25:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The popular accountability doctrine teaches that I need to be "under accountability", that I need to get my assignments from a pastor, from a board of directors etc and that I must report on how I have fulfilled their assignments so that they can evaluate my performance! Everything has to have an order - God is not the author of confusion. If there isn't someone at the head then everyone can just do their own thing. I believe that everyone has a place to serve according to their abilities, talents and gifts. Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Laura: Very little of your money is being used for the kingdom. Most of it goes to the bank that holds the mortgage, the flower shop, the secretary, the janitor, the guy who sprays for bugs and the electric and phone company. In our home church, we see a need and we meet that need. We see the change it makes. Not one cent goes for any other reason than to show God's love to others. Many ,many people have been brainwashed into thinking that you need professional helpto give your money to the Lord, to worship, to sing, even to pray. Please don't be one of them. There is a way more pleasing to the Lord, a more simple way. First Cor. 14:26 gives a picture of the true Church coming together. When you read that verse, pay particular attention to the word "EACH". Read it. Think about it. Is this a picture of the place you worship? I hope it is. I bet it is not. Terry Absolutely I agree that it is ulitmately vertical but I am going to place my money where I know it is being used to further the Kingdom. I am not saying your "church group" is practicing false doctrine. What I am saying is that it does happen. Laura
