Bruce, I agree with most of what you said. I am aware that we are the "church" (Body of Christ), and I have always been bothered by building "church" buildings with all the mortgages, etc. It seems like one solution to large groups needing to meet, and I'm not ready to condemn it all just because home churches may be superior in most ways. I'll have to think about ALL of your points later (when I'm not watching after a 1, 3, and 5 year old!)
Currently the older two are watching a video, and 1 year old is having fun pulling everything out of the food pantry (and eating some of it), and Grandfather is getting his nap after taking the older two to eat and bounce happily at the McDonald's Fun Place!!! This morning the 5 yr old, Gretchen, got up at the crack of dawn and I heard her walking around the house. So I sleepily dragged myself out of bed to check on her. I walked into the living room to find her smiling happily at me and asking, "Grandmother, what are you doing up so early?" I have learned that when you can't find the 1 year old you should check in the dog crate. The most exciting moment (so far) was yesterday morning when I opened the back patio door to let the dogs out and a "skink" (lizard to me!) ran into the kitchen! So little Sammie the teeniest dachshund in the world fiercely attacked it and bit off it's tail! So the skink is running around one way and its tail is wiggling around the other way, and the dog is trying to eat them both--Grandfather had to come to the rescue!!! Just wait--your day is coming, Grandpa Bruce! Izzy -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches Good morning Izzy, In response to my statement:"Since the new covenant made the first old, decayed and ready to vanish away (Heb.8:13) neither Jews nor Gentiles have any direction from God to construct any sort of "temple" or "sanctuary" for gatherings of new covenant saints!"..... You responded:"So you believe that the whole OT is null and void now? Funny, I was under the impression that the first century Believers (including Jesus) worshipped at temples, honored the Sabbath, and believed that Torah was eternal. But now it is "vanished away"? Maybe it was the apostate papal RCC that "vanished" it--I don't think the Lord did. As for me, neither of the Lord's Covenants are done away with--His OT and NT is written on my heart of flesh, rather than a heart of stone. " I think I need to clarify a few things here: (1)What we have traditionally called the "Old Testament" (Genesis to Malachi) and the "New Testament" (Matthew to Revelation) is a use of terms in a way that God never uses them! Genesis to Malachi is referred to in scripture as "the scriptures", "the law" etc, but never the "old testament/covenant". So when I use the term "old covenant" I try to use it in it's scriptural sense, of the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai. It was a conditional covenant based on Israel's acceptance of God's terms. See Ex.24:1-8 God has made at least nine covenants throughout history and each one is signified with a manifest token. That token lasts as long as the covenant. The first unconditional covenant was made with Noah and all flesh in Gen.9. It was signified by the rainbow and is still in force today. God also made an unconditional covenant with Abraham (Gen.17). That covenant was signified with circumcision of Abraham's male descendants, and it also continues forever, as will circumcision of Jews and Arabs. But the covenant made at Sinai was signified with the visible token of the sprinkling of blood of animal sacrifice. That covenant ended with the sacrifice of Christ and the rending of the vail of the temple. It is not me or the RCC that "vanished" that covenant! God did! Heb.8:13 says, "In that He (God) saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (2) The new covenant is NOT Matthew to Revelation! The new covenant was made at Calvary. So actually almost all the events of the Gospel records are under the old covenant. Much of the Lord Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is teaching relative to relationships that would be true when He had dedicated the new covenant. But the use of temple buildings which He called "My Father's house" was an old covenant practice. The vail was rent when Jesus died indicating that God no longer dwelt in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24) and that the way of access into the holiest was now made open through the blood of Christ (Heb.10:19-22) (3)Under the old covenant, one always had to be in the right PLACE to worship God. God always had His dwelling in PLACES! But the major feature of the new covenant is that God's dwelling is now in PEOPLE. That is why we can worship Him anywhere at all...WE ARE THE TEMPLE! That is why many believers who recognize new covenant truths say, "We don't GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH!" You simply cannot go to yourself, so if God dwells in you, you cannot go to where He dwells either! (4)I don't think I ever said that believers cannot worship God in a church building! I simply indicated that in traditional church services where the vast majority of the saints are required to be passive spectators THEY ARE NOT BEING EQUIPPED TO DO THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY! Rather they have been falsely conditioned to think that they "go to church" to RECEIVE ministry from the one or ones who are paid to do the work of ministry! That is why those salaried clergymen (and women) are called "the ministers"! That is contrary to scripture! The saints are to be doing the work of the ministry! This is something that never happened under the old covenant! There was a distinct priestly class to which all the ministry of the sanctuary was assigned. Only they could draw near into the tabernacle itself, and only the high priest, once a year could actually enter the most holy. (5)You mentioned the Sabbath. You will note that sabbath observance for Israel PREDATED THE COVENANT MADE AT SINAI! It was given in Exodus 16 and Israel did not arrive at Sinai where the covenant was given until Ex.19. Furthermore 3 physical practices that were to mark out Israel as a distinct physical nation from all the rest were all established PRIOR TO THE COVENANT AT SINAI. These three physical and symbolic practices were instituted to be observed by Israelites FOREVER, even after the old covenant made at Sinai had vanished away! Circumcision is to be practiced by them forever. Gen.17:10,13,19. The Passover is to be observed by them forever Ex.12:14,17,24. Observance of the seventh day Sabbath by Israelites is to be a sign between them and God forever Ex.31:13,16,17. BTW, while those practices have nothing to do with new covenant gentile believers, new covenant believers (Jews and Gentiles) have also been given 3 physical and symbolic practices which have tremendous spiritual significance and are to mark us out as distinct from unbelievers. Each of these practices has two parts: -That we are THE DEAD AND THE LIVING as identified with Christ in His death burial and resurrection is signified by baptism (immersion in and emergence from water.) Romans 6 -The BREAD AND THE CUP signifies our communion with Christ on account of His body that was given and His blood that was shed for us. I Cor.11:23-26 -What we are instructed to do with our HEADS AND OUR HAIR may bring glory or shame, honor or dishonor to our Head. Since God has crowned His own Son with glory and honor (Heb.2:9) He appeals to us in I Cor.11:1-16 to do the same as we demonstrate His headship by what we do with our physical heads and hair. (6)But the scriptures (Genesis to Revelation) cannot be broken, but rather live and abide forever. That which was written aforetime was written for our learning so we need the scriptures both before and after Christ. But it is absolutely impossible to function at the same time by the principles of the old covenant made at Sinai AND by the principles of the new covenant made at Calvary! Most churches which CLAIM to be new testament churches today are actually following all of the pattern of ministry under the old covenant! A distinct priesthood, distinct holy buildings often called "the house of God", tithes and offerings taken for the support of the distinct priestly class and the sanctified temple buildings, observance of distinct holy days, distinct holy garments worn by the priestly class, ministry from a pulpit, uninvolvement of the bulk of the people of God in the work of the ministry etc etc. Izzy, you also continued:"Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us; for after that He had said before, This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put MY LAWS (Torah) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." (Heb 10:15) " This is a direct reference from Jeremiah 31:31-33 to God's promise to make a NEW COVENANT in distinct contrast to the (old) covenant which He made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. You also wrote:"We can look forward to the Messianic Age (New Millenium) when, "...many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go for THE LAW (Torah), and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Is 2:3)" I find it very interesting that the term "the law" is used in a number of ways in scripture. It is used of the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) and it is used of all the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. BUT IT IS NEVER USED OF JUST THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, OR OF JUST THE COVENANT THAT GOD MADE WITH ISRAEL AT SINAI! You concluded: "However, I agree that Jesus is our real "Sanctuary" today. I find it interesting that you think that we can worship just about anywhere, except in a "church" building. If one can worship in a prison, why not in a church? :-) Seems like if we are in Him, we can even worship in a church. LOL! " I would differ with you on this point- Jesus is NOT our sanctuary! Rather we are are HIS sanctuary! Under the old covenant, God said to Moses in Ex.25:8, "Let them (Israel) make me a sanctuary (the tabernacle) that I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM." But in II Corinthians 6:16 He says through Paul, "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, AND WALK IN THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE." This is one of the major reasons why I said that you cannot function according to the principles of both covenants at once! If you want to continue to function by the covenant made at Sinai which God says has become old, decayed and vanished away, you can and many do! But if you want to experience true new covenant ministry and new covenant equipping of new covenant saints you have got to leave the old Sinaitic covenant behind and live in the good of the new! Lastly- contrary to popular opinion, buildings with stained glass windows, steeples, pulpits, pews etc ARE NOT CHURCHES. They are simply religious buildings. A church in scripture is ALWAYS a group of PEOPLE gathered for a purpose. Saul of Tarsus PERSECUTED THE CHURCH. He did not gather a demolition crew to tear down a cathedral, rather he seized believing men and woman and cast them into prison. I hope this sets you mind at ease and assures you that I do not think that any part of the scriptures are "null and void". Rather the conditional covenant that God made at Sinai with Israel which included animal sacrifice, continual shedding of blood, a distinct priesthood etc has indeed been set aside. That Sinaitic covenant is no longer to guide and instruct the behavior and ministry of His new covenant people, the church. Your brother in Christ, Bruce _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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