Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
- Original Message - From: Michael Everson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Andries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: David Starner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: [Very-OT] Re: ü snip Garçon in Oxford English Dictionary but garconnière (bachelor's housing) in my Webster's New Lexicon (no cedilla, grave accent). Webster's Third New International (1961): garçon Supplement (n.d.): garçonnière. Oxford New Dictionary of English (2001): garçon, garçonnière. New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, January 1997, on CD-ROM has: garçon, garconnière. How's that for consistency? Of course, given the evidence above, they may have revised that by now. Mike.
Re: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
At 21:11 -0500 2002-01-23, Patrick Andries wrote: In the first edition of this dictionary it was said that in many compounds whose second element begins with h the h is silent unless the accent falls on the syllable that it begins; thus philhellenic and philharmonic should not sound the h; in nihilism also it should be silent. Here too the speak-as-you-spell movement has been at work, and though the COD [Concise Oxford Dictionary] does not favour the pronunciation of the h in these words, Not so, at least not in the ninth edition, 1998. it is in fact often heard I wouldn't say I'd ever heard these words without the h. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 08:13 2002-01-23 -0500, John Cowan a écrit : Middle French spelling is very unphonemic. This is the so-called aspirated h, which still blocks liaison even though it is quite silent now. [Alain] Not only quite, but absolutely mute, one must not be so shy. We use the word aspirated to distinguish them from all other mute h's just because the h has an effect on pronunciation, but the h itself is never pronounced in French. Example of aspirated h (they are exceptional anyway) in French : « des héros » (which means « [some, many] heroes »)... pronounced « day 'ayro » (which distinguishes the words from « des zéros » (« dayzayro »), which means « [some, many] zeroes ». Alain LaBonté Québec
RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 16:18 2002-01-23 -0800, Yves Arrouye a écrit : Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). [Alain] Mel is a horrible and hypocritical abbreviation of Messagerie électronique recommended in the French government. It is recommended not to use it as a noun. However some people in France used to say email and now say mel in spite of the recommendation not to pronounce the abbreviation. Québec invented the (French-sounding) word courriel (for courrier électronique)... It is more and more used in France too. For one, I must also confess that I personally write the word cédérom (the sounds no not shock a French speaker and the spelling either -- wile email pronounced ee-mail [iméle or imèle] in French, is horribly schizophrenic) although the word will probably disappear over time [regardless of its spelling], as well as the word microsillon (33 RPM records)... Using generic names (such as disque for CD-ROM, relatively technology-independent), was a good evolution in languages (we use one word for all tables, it distracts to change words just because the shape changes, if the intent is to describe a function). It seems that nowadays we put more and more accent on technology, on how things are made, rather than on their destination (functionality). It is perhaps a sociological fact that I find interesting to notice. Alain LaBonté Québec
[Quite, quite OT:] Re: ü
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Alain LaBonté wrote: A 08:13 2002-01-23 -0500, John Cowan a écrit : Middle French spelling is very unphonemic. This is the so-called aspirated h, which still blocks liaison even though it is quite silent now. [Alain] Not only quite, but absolutely mute, one must not be so shy. quite means French absolument in this context. I think the rule is this: if the adjective already describes an absolute quality (like silent or wrong or unacceptable, for example), then quite emphasises that it really is absolute; in speech, the i sound in quite is stressed. If the adjective describes a graded quality, i.e. that often differs in degree (like hungry or good or fast), then quite means French assez, and is unstressed. Of course this makes very little sense. Such is English. - -- David Hopwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home page PGP public key: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hopwood/ RSA 2048-bit; fingerprint 71 8E A6 23 0E D3 4C E5 0F 69 8C D4 FA 66 15 01 Nothing in this message is intended to be legally binding. If I revoke a public key but refuse to specify why, it is because the private key has been seized under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act; see www.fipr.org/rip -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBPE+ZADkCAxeYt5gVAQGY+wf/Wiz3gg1+i2LwIT/HSoHTtcSzAx7p885p CZpsdw56TXwpof0US6Dh2tAFR6AAyNlvfYyN9Cr8LIlzKWZmtns2NtfTog9pE9A7 VIatK4X2MMYtdo+UmVM6LVC13PsPtI3VNkBFoCEojRYqRAj2BpilelwehHBb6Oyf j9CBM0lgr1guAdQslW3O0KNYqOW89Sn7WdfYgVdeI3bIbpbq9Tx+TwDjbkw7t3gM TqDPfuZ7ZPcamxwyFzziYbVTq/5IONUbx+c6MkQG9eDsfcnF4f1vhMspx2HBhwtd X1eyzGXPfIs+ym+2BEku+fl1AZn7OP03Vq14D3Cl/Y/z7ePo0S+i0w== =gbGZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
A 00:35 2002-01-23 +, Michael Everson a écrit : At 18:30 -0500 2002-01-22, Patrick Andries wrote: Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... Alain LaBonté Québec
RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
Obviously (I advocate in French changing the spelling of common foreign words so that there would be more consistency). Le ouiquende? That would be pronounced wikãd... To respect the English pronunciation you would have to write it ouiquennde, which would still be a very odd spelling in French... The end sound is really not French in itself... France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). YA
Re: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
Yves Arrouye wrote: France's Académie française is good at that: they recently invented cédérom (CD-ROM; gets used because it's quite okay), and mèl (mail, for e-mail; nobody uses it except to make fun of it). Mél (which I oppose) was never proposed as a word but as an abbreviation for messagerie électronique (we are told as tél is one for téléphone on business cards). Le symbole : Mél., pour « messagerie électronique », peut figurer devant l'adresse électronique sur un document (papier à lettres ou carte de visite, par exemple), tout comme Tél. devant le numéro de téléphone. « Mél. » NE doit PAS être employé comme substantif. And strictly speaking the Academy only approved this abreviation and did not proposed it, the Ministry of Culture did. http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm In Québec, one usually reads, hears and sees courriel (courrier+él ectronique). The steps of the main metro station of Montréal were some time ago painted in purple and yellow with Yahoo! Courriel painted on them. I won't deny that from time to time, one will not have to suffer a Hexagonal mail... Patrick Andries --- http://hapax.iquebec.com In the first edition of this dictionary it was said that in many compounds whose second element begins with h the h is silent unless the accent falls on the syllable that it begins; thus philhellenic and philharmonic should not sound the h; in nihilism also it should be silent. Here too the speak-as-you-spell movement has been at work, and though the COD [Concise Oxford Dictionary] does not favour the pronunciation of the h in these words, it is in fact often heard, and some modern modern dictionaries give it. See a, an, I, honorarium, hotel [also references to old silent h pronunciations in herb, hospital, humble, humour] and wh [hw sound [re]gaining ground under the influence of the speak-as-you-spell movement in England] (Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd ed., 1965)
RE: RE: [Very-OT] Re: ü
http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm http://www.culture.fr/culture/dglf/dispositif-enrichissement.htm Thanks for the pointer. Though I can't fine the exact sentence re: the substantive use I found mél referred to as a symbol for messagerie électronique. I like courriel a lot. Nice. YA
Re: [Very-OT] Re: ü
In a message dated 2002-01-23 13:32:39 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language lists only (fil' här män' ik). BTW, are those two a's really identical? They are in my dialect, a mixture of Southern California and Great Lakes, but not in some others. For example, they would be different in British RP. By the way... (desperate attempt to get this thread back on-topic) - the first is U+10402 (or U+1042A) - the second is U+10409 (or U+10431) The biggest problem I had learning the Deseret Alphabet was figuring out the difference between these two vowels, especially they're the same to me. Now I decide on the basis of how I think the vowels would be pronounced in RP, so philharmonic is spelled: 10441 1042E 1044A 10438 1042A 10449 1044B 10431 1044C 1042E 1043F (Yes, I pronounce both the h and the r.) -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
Re: ü
At 20:09 -0500 2002-01-21, Patrick Andries wrote: Kenneth Whistler wrote: Patrick Andries wrote: I must say that I have already seen horrors such as geüpdated (the u is presumably approximated), again English messing with languages spelling and pronounciation... Languages don't mess with languages. People mess with languages. It isn't as if French hasn't been polluting English for a thousand years or anything, is it?! No, no, no. French has enriched English, not polluted it, by bestowing it a wealth of new words. I wonder if we could start the millenium celebration of this wonderful hybridization before 2066? Yes. French has given us things like fin de siècle. And English has given you le weekend. And nowadays, the Europeans are getting their revenge by exporting all their accents back onto English letters. Well, the Americans are putting a pretty good fight. Can't see the light behind façade, cañon and coöperate. Tsk tsk. Coöperate isn't very common, but naïve is. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
Re: RE: ü
Marco Cimarosti wrote: 27E7FB58F42CD5119C0D0002557C0CCA16B44F@XCHANGE"> Patrick Andries wrote: Funny: I have just read a similar but opposite opinion on an Italiannewsgroup. Somebody said: if really we must accept English terms such as"file" or "window", we should at list do the effort of pronouncing themaccording to Italian spelling: /'file/ and /vin'dOv/, rather than /'fail/ or/'windo:/. It is an alternate way of doing. In fact, I believe in a middle way : spell the word as they are pronounced in your language (which is usually not the same as the original, very few Germans pronounce English loan-words in German as native English speakers would (even assuming the wealth of English pronunciations). 27E7FB58F42CD5119C0D0002557C0CCA16B44F@XCHANGE"> A way to say welcome. Uhmm... I hope such way of saying welcome will never be applied to humans.In the case I move to China, I would not like to have my hair painted blackand my eyes shape modified with surgery. :-) Remember the old adage : when in Rome... Patrick
Re: ü
Patrick Andries wrote: I must say that I have already seen horrors such as geüpdated (the u is presumably approximated), again English messing with languages spelling and pronounciation... See http://www.vvb.org/anglowaan/woordenlijst.htm about the feeling some Dutch have about these barbarisms (van Dale's Web site word) *laughs* It isn't as if French hasn't been polluting English for a thousand years or anything, is it?! And nowadays, the Europeans are getting their revenge by exporting all their accents back onto English letters. Even the Dutch get into the act to help out the French: http://www.hollandbymail.nl/hbmcom/nivea_care_productlist.html for Nivea Crème Crème ?? What's wrong with good old cream, anyway? --Ken Patrick Andries
Re: ü
Kenneth Whistler wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> Patrick Andries wrote: I must say that I have already seen horrors such as "gepdated" (the "u" is presumably approximated), again English messing with languages spelling and pronounciation...See http://www.vvb.org/anglowaan/woordenlijst.htm about the feeling some Dutch have about these "barbarisms" (van Dale's Web site word) *laughs* My humble mission in life. [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> It isn't as if French hasn't been polluting English for a thousandyears or anything, is it?! No, no, no. French has enriched English, not polluted it, by bestowing it a wealth of new words. I wonder if we could start the millenium celebration of this wonderful hybridization before 2066? [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> And nowadays, the Europeans are getting their revenge by exportingall their accents back onto English letters. Well, the Americans are putting a pretty good fight. Can't see the light behind faade, caon and coperate. Tsk tsk. Seriously now, diacritics are an excellent idea when you have more phonemes than graphemes. You could, of course, also create new graphemes with those "clusters" (complexe graphemes) but it is not easy to find a sequence of characters that cannot be interpreted otherwise (hence the diaeresis for vowels, but what for the consonants, a new letter called dash ?). [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> Even the Dutch getinto the act to help out the French:http://www.hollandbymail.nl/hbmcom/nivea_care_productlist.htmlfor "Nivea Crme" [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> Crme ?? What's wrong with good old "cream", anyway? Nothing in English (although why is cream pronounced /kri:m/ and not /kr:m/ or /krae:m/ or such things?), time to import an diacritic or two ? We have a rich stock (^ ` ~ ). But in Dutch cream is certainly not better since crme is in the dictionary(*) as a common word. BTW, I think the Nivea marketing guys must be saying "this is a Trademark, we can impose what we want", they must have thought crme was passe-partout in Europe (German also OK, Oetkers speaks of its Crme Frache on TV http://www.bbdo.de/bbdo-group-germany/press-center/729.html). This is how we get our very sizeable daily ration of English names over here (some cryptic such as Toys 'R Us). (*) I believe the Dutch could justifiably write it kreem or krme if they wanted. Patrick Andries
