Re: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313)
Yes. The name for the language that English speakers might correctly consider to be English with a Scottish accent is known as English. English is widely spoken in Scottland, often with a BBC accent (the 'standard' accent of the English, as much as there is a standard), often without. I suspect many people speak a creole of Scots and English. The purer form is known as broad Scots. * (University of Edinburgh alumnus) On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Michael Everson wrote: Ar 14:33 -0800 2000-06-19, scríobh Gary Roberts: The name for the language that English speakers might mistakenly consider to be English with a scottish accent is known as Scots. Speakers of Scots believe that the proper English name for their language is Scots. English speakers who don't speak Scots believe that the proper English name for the Scots tongue is English. The term 'Scottish' is not used, I suspect because it is ambiguous. In Scotland, standard English is spoken by a great many people, with a Scottish accent, more or less strong and impenetrable depending on lots of factors. There is also another language, closely related to standard English but is derived from the Anglian dialect of Old English, is called Scots. It is also called Lallans ( Lowlands). Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
Re: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR:
Robert A. Rosenberg wrote: At 07:53 AM 06/15/2000 -0800, Michael Kaplan (Trigeminal Inc.) wrote: Eventually someone will have a language name that does not fit or a language like German will inist on sorting sooner, under Deutsch rather than under German, etc. (which I personally think makes more sense than making a locale take someone's translation of their language name, FWIW). Since it was stated that Greek was displayed between German and Spanish, I;d assume that German was Deutsch since Spanish is Espanol It is "español": without upper-case initial, and with a eñe. By the way, the name of the language rather ought to be "castellano" (Castillian), particularly if you are in the vicinity of Barcelona, València, Bilbo or A Coruña (as you see, this is an example of a language with different "native" name, which is an added problem to you). OTOH, "español" have the added value to make it easier for foreigners to understand what it means. Back question: should it be ,,deutsch'', or ,,Deutsch'', in such a context? Antoine
RE: Linguistic precedence
Ar 02:04 -0800 2000-06-16, scríobh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On such documents (driving licenses, passports, etc.), the matter is normally settled solomonically by using all capitals. BTW, I see from my passport that this does not fix all problems anyway: the Irish Gaelic version of "REPUBLIC OF ITALY" has a lowercase "h" although it is all capitals. I suppose it says POBLACHT NA hIODÁILE, which would be correct, as h- is a mutation (the nominative is IODÁIL) and the rule in Irish is that this and other mutations (mB-, gC-, nD-, bhF-, nG-, bP-, tS-, dT-) are not to be capitalized. Writing POBLACHT NA HIODÁILE would in fact be an error. Just another amazing feature of human language which automatic algorithms have trouble with. Important for database entry and things like that: software that insists that the first letter be capitalized or that all letters be capitalized is utterly evil. :-)
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR:
Touché! I was mislead by a fictional character by V. Montalbán: Pepe Carva*lh*o a Catalan detective of Galician origins... Ciao. Marco -Original Message- From: Antoine Leca [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 16 June, 2000 12.44 To: Unicode List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Coruña [...] I though it was "La Coruña" (in Castillian) or "A Corunha" (in Galician). In fact, I never went to Galicia, so I do not know. In the rest of Spain, practice is to spell it A Coruña, particularly on road atlases, even if the proper Castillian spelling is of course La Coruña (and that is the name used when one talks about the football club). Thinking about it, I agree A Corunha looks more Portuguese so Galician than A Coruña. So I did look at the official web site of Galicia URL:http://www.xunta.es/, and found an interesting page URL:http://www.xunta.es/nomenclator/index.htm. Which in fact use A Coruña, even in a Galician text. À suivre... Antoine
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR:
Well, "Gre" does not appear between "Deu" and "Esp" on any European language, but "Gre" does appear between "Ger" and "Spa" so I am assuming English names were being used here? Michael -- From: Robert A. Rosenberg[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:27 PM To: Unicode List Cc: Unicode List Subject: RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: At 07:53 AM 06/15/2000 -0800, Michael Kaplan (Trigeminal Inc.) wrote: Eventually someone will have a language name that does not fit or a language like German will inist on sorting sooner, under Deutsch rather than under German, etc. (which I personally think makes more sense than making a locale take someone's translation of their language name, FWIW). Since it was stated that Greek was displayed between German and Spanish, I;d assume that German was Deutsch since Spanish is Espanol (not sure if that "n" is "n" or "ñ" as well as if my spelling is correct).
RE: Linguistic precedence
Ar 03:55 -0800 2000-06-16, scríobh Séamas Ó Brógáin: Marco Cimarosti wrote: ... the Irish Gaelic version of "REPUBLIC OF ITALY" has a lowercase "h" although it is all capitals. The name of this language is "Irish"; there is no such thing as "Irish Gaelic". Ní hea, a Shéamais. "Gaeilge na hÉireann" is Irish Gaelic "Gàidhlig na h-Alba" is Scottish Gaelic "Gaelg Vanninn" is Manx Gaelic. The first and third of these are often called just Irish and Manx, but it is certainly not incorrect to use the term "Irish Gaelic". All three of these languages are Gaelic, .i. Gaelach. Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
RE: Linguistic precedence
It's worse than that, the month name must be inflected...but luckily the inflection is really simple, just a prefix: "16. kesäkuuta s/prefix/suffix/; # Furiously sipping his coffee. 2000", or in numbers, "16.6.2000". Note the ".", none of that st/nd/rd/th mess. And I do not know of any person whose mothertongue is Latin. Neither do I, but hey, let's not discriminate against the Vatican. After some further study it seems that also the português go with Capitalized weekdays and months (but with lowercase language names). -- Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Linguistic precedence
At 02:37 AM 06/16/2000 -0800, Michael Everson wrote: software that insists ... that all letters be capitalized is utterly evil. :-) It sure makes it hard to tell how to tell the difference between polish and Polish (as well as how to pronounce the word "POLISH" since you first must figure out which word it is) g.
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: antediluvian
On the cover of my French driver's license, it says ``Driving license'' in 10 languages (all the EU languages at the time it was printed). The titles are ordered alphabetically by the name of the language in the language itself. The Portuguese don't seem to mind. (Fair enough, this only works because all bar one of the EU languages use the Latin script, and Greek has a standard transliteration. It comes between German and Spanish.) Sounds great...but *which* alphabetic ordering are we talking about? :-) Actually, in the case of the 10 EU languages being referred to, I do not think there would be any dissention as to the order, would there be? Admittedly if Lithuania was in the EU and there were countries that started with a "Y" there as well, there would be problems with people who did not understand the order and thought that the "Y" countries were jumping the queue, but AFAIK there is no real difference except for Greek, and no one disagress with its placement. Michael
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: antediluvian
Actually, in the case of the 10 EU languages being referred to, I do not think there would be any dissention as to the order, would there be? Admittedly if Lithuania was in the EU and there were countries that started with a "Y" there as well, there would be problems with people who did not understand the order and thought that the "Y" countries were jumping .. I admit to nitpicking because in this particular case, the language names, we may be just lucky so that there are no collation conflicts. But believing that there is a collation order that works across all the European (Latin script, let's not even go to Cyrillic and Greek) languages is a very hopeless fallacy: the things conflicting are the 'accented' characters (like a-diaereses and o-diaereses in German versus in Swedish/Finnish), and special 'ligature'-like cases like the 'll' and 'ch' of Spanish, and pairs like v/w and i/j being sorted "to the same place", and so on. (Has somebody written a comprehensive collection of all these collation problems?) And, in future, Lithuania may be a member in the EU. (Where *do* they sort 'Y', by the way?) -- Jarkko Hietaniemi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: antediluvian
I admit to nitpicking because in this particular case, the language names, we may be just lucky so that there are no collation conflicts. I believe this is an accurate statement... .we ARE lucky, so far. But believing that there is a collation order that works across all the European languages is a very hopeless fallacy I agree. Eventually someone will have a language name that does not fit or a language like German will inist on sorting sooner, under Deutsch rather than under German, etc. (which I personally think makes more sense than making a locale take someone's translation of their language name, FWIW). People can always find something to fight about, sometimes we help them by not frustrating them and making them look quite so hard. :-) (Has somebody written a comprehensive collection of all these collation problems?) Well, the only ones I regularly deal with are the Traditional Spanish sort and the Lithuanian sort, there are undoutably others. The accent/grave issues are easier and few people would really object to sorts that place the characters with diacriticals right after the base characters. So it is really only DIFFERENT sorts that make people upset. And, in future, Lithuania may be a member in the EU. (Where *do* they sort 'Y', by the way?) They sort "Y" after "I". The second i18N bug in a software product that I ever had to fix was relaetd to this issue. :-) Michael
Re: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR: antediluvian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But believing that there is a collation order that works across all the European (Latin script, let's not even go to Cyrillic and Greek) languages is a very hopeless fallacy: Quite true. But there is a *default* collation that works *fairly* well, plus machinery for tailoring it to particular cases: see http://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr10/ Note that collation is user-locale-specific, not language-specific: as an anglophone browsing a list of Swedish personal names, I want them collated in English order (ignore accents), not Swedish order. the things conflicting are the 'accented' characters (like a-diaereses and o-diaereses in German versus in Swedish/Finnish), and special 'ligature'-like cases like the 'll' and 'ch' of Spanish, and pairs like v/w and i/j being sorted "to the same place", and so on. This conflates two separate issues: tailoring for localization, and handling multiple characters as single. Both are well handled by the collation TR. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
RE: Linguistic precedence [was: (TC304.2313) AND/OR:
At 07:53 AM 06/15/2000 -0800, Michael Kaplan (Trigeminal Inc.) wrote: Eventually someone will have a language name that does not fit or a language like German will inist on sorting sooner, under Deutsch rather than under German, etc. (which I personally think makes more sense than making a locale take someone's translation of their language name, FWIW). Since it was stated that Greek was displayed between German and Spanish, I;d assume that German was Deutsch since Spanish is Espanol (not sure if that "n" is "n" or "ñ" as well as if my spelling is correct).
