Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
On 3/31/2015 11:49 PM, Michael Wu wrote: Valter Mura 於 2015/4/1 上午 04:07 寫道: Il 25/03/2015 23:42, Richard VINCK ha scritto: Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. For me, the bug is confirmed. First cell doesn't sort. LibreOffice 4.3.3.2 Build ID: 430m0(Build:2) Linux Environment Ciao It is seemed the first cell is used as a label, not data. If we add one more cell L16, set L16=Test, and select those 7 cells ( L16 ~ L22 ) to sort, then we will get the result B-P-Q-R-Y-Z. Hope it helps and best regards. Michael The above test DOES treat the first cell in the range as a column LABEL. If you do the sort using the menu (Data Sort), the box that opens up contains two tabs (Sort Criteria, Options). Again, the default is to treat the top cell as a LABEL. If you do NOT HAVE any column labels, you have to go to the OPTIONS tab (every time) and UN-SELECT the Range Contains Column Labels box. Technically, this does not appear to be a bug. (It appears to be intentional design.) But I believe it is a poor design. That Range Contains Column Labels checkbox SHOULD be on the SORT CRITERIA tab, so that the user sees it every time he performs the sort operation. Likewise, using one of the SORT icons should also open up that same box. The only difference should be that the default sort order changes depending on which icon is hit. LO Version: 4.3.5.2 Windows 7 64-bit -- Tim -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi :) So changing it is a Feature request and it might be handy if you, or whoever posts it in the bug-reporting system, gives us a clickable link so that we can maybe show that the change would be quite popular. Feels like you are getting somewhere with this! The next bit might have a looong lead-time or lag but it'd be nice to start on that next step. Does anyone have time to post such a report? Regards from Tom :) On 1 April 2015 at 07:45, Tim Deaton t...@timdeaton.org wrote: On 3/31/2015 11:49 PM, Michael Wu wrote: Valter Mura 於 2015/4/1 上午 04:07 寫道: Il 25/03/2015 23:42, Richard VINCK ha scritto: Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. For me, the bug is confirmed. First cell doesn't sort. LibreOffice 4.3.3.2 Build ID: 430m0(Build:2) Linux Environment Ciao It is seemed the first cell is used as a label, not data. If we add one more cell L16, set L16=Test, and select those 7 cells ( L16 ~ L22 ) to sort, then we will get the result B-P-Q-R-Y-Z. Hope it helps and best regards. Michael The above test DOES treat the first cell in the range as a column LABEL. If you do the sort using the menu (Data Sort), the box that opens up contains two tabs (Sort Criteria, Options). Again, the default is to treat the top cell as a LABEL. If you do NOT HAVE any column labels, you have to go to the OPTIONS tab (every time) and UN-SELECT the Range Contains Column Labels box. Technically, this does not appear to be a bug. (It appears to be intentional design.) But I believe it is a poor design. That Range Contains Column Labels checkbox SHOULD be on the SORT CRITERIA tab, so that the user sees it every time he performs the sort operation. Likewise, using one of the SORT icons should also open up that same box. The only difference should be that the default sort order changes depending on which icon is hit. LO Version: 4.3.5.2 Windows 7 64-bit -- Tim -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi all, Tom Davies schrieb: Hi :) So changing it is a Feature request and it might be handy if you, or whoever posts it in the bug-reporting system, gives us a clickable link so that we can maybe show that the change would be quite popular. Feels like you are getting somewhere with this! The next bit might have a looong lead-time or lag but it'd be nice to start on that next step. Does anyone have time to post such a report? Done. https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90393 Kind regards Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi :) Wow!! That was really nicely done! All that detail and giving them the coding to search for and comparisons with other Spreadsheet programs! Thanks Regina! Also many thanks to Stuart Foote for his typical speed and efficiency in passing it straight onto the relevant team already! I don't think there is anything worth adding as all the issues seem to be covered succinctly and tactfully. Zugzwang. Regards from Tom :) On 1 April 2015 at 14:13, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote: Hi all, Tom Davies schrieb: Hi :) So changing it is a Feature request and it might be handy if you, or whoever posts it in the bug-reporting system, gives us a clickable link so that we can maybe show that the change would be quite popular. Feels like you are getting somewhere with this! The next bit might have a looong lead-time or lag but it'd be nice to start on that next step. Does anyone have time to post such a report? Done. https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90393 Kind regards Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
-- Tim === 225 Janice Drive Athens, GA 30606-1638 email: t...@timdeaton.org home: 706-543-0592 cell: 706-248-6544 fax: 888-415-5991 web: www.timdeaton.org === I know the plans I have for you: Plans to prosper you and not to harm you; Plans to give you hope and a future. --- God (Jeremiah 29:11) On 4/1/2015 9:13 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi all, Tom Davies schrieb: Hi :) So changing it is a Feature request and it might be handy if you, or whoever posts it in the bug-reporting system, gives us a clickable link so that we can maybe show that the change would be quite popular. Feels like you are getting somewhere with this! The next bit might have a looong lead-time or lag but it'd be nice to start on that next step. Does anyone have time to post such a report? Done. https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90393 Kind regards Regina Thank you, Regina! -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Valter Mura 於 2015/4/1 上午 04:07 寫道: Il 25/03/2015 23:42, Richard VINCK ha scritto: Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. For me, the bug is confirmed. First cell doesn't sort. LibreOffice 4.3.3.2 Build ID: 430m0(Build:2) Linux Environment Ciao It is seemed the first cell is used as a label, not data. If we add one more cell L16, set L16=Test, and select those 7 cells ( L16 ~ L22 ) to sort, then we will get the result B-P-Q-R-Y-Z. Hope it helps and best regards. Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Il 25/03/2015 23:42, Richard VINCK ha scritto: Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. For me, the bug is confirmed. First cell doesn't sort. LibreOffice 4.3.3.2 Build ID: 430m0(Build:2) Linux Environment Ciao -- Valter Open Source is better! LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org KDE: www.kde.org Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Il 27/03/2015 11:38, Pertti Rönnberg ha scritto: Tim Lloyd's comment is not acceptable! This is not a question of a (unpaid) programmer's likings or priorities -- this is a serious question of Libre Office's liability, because both of the the sort buttons in the toolbar (asc desc) give wrong results as well as there is no clear explanation why and how the sort command in Data= sort must be customized if yopu want a correct result. A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! These bugs are a result of very bad planning and an obviously total lack of control testing of the programming before it was accepted as a feature in Calc and the complete LibreOffice suite. Neither is this really not a game -- anyone who goes for to programming something for LibreOffice must feel the responsibility for the result -- as well as the controlling team (if any?). The sort feature is a very important feature why these faults have to be corrected immediately the function of both the sort buttons set to normal sort of a selected range all selections set to blanc in Data=sort=options Pertti Rönnberg I agree with Pertti. This behaviour is not acceptable, or at least, the avegrage user should be warned about it (that's to say, go to Data and modify there the way to order) -- Valter Open Source is better! LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org KDE: www.kde.org Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
On 3/28/2015 10:32 AM, Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi wrote: snip If LO really wants to increase its market share – to beat MSO, a benefit for all users – then it has to eliminate every possible cause of problems especially for the ‘ordinary user’ -- even the small ones like that sorting issue. What you seem to be failing to understand is that the 'problem' you are describing is not a failing of Libreoffice, it is simply a failing of you, the user, to properly understand how the tool you have chosen to use works. I agree that this should probably be a configurable option you can set in Tools Options Libreoffice Calc Defaults (or something like that) - ie, change the default behavior to whatever you want - but the fact is, it isn't, so you simply need to be aware of this. You do have some options: 1. Just be aware of the behavior and work around it 2. Create a Macro that puts a button on your toolbar to do exactly what you want 3. Open a bug/enhancement request to make this a configurable option -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Brian, Thanks for your reply and for the articles you linked to – especially the last one is very interesting. I have been aware of that but not so well explained. As I think you are very cunny both on spreadsheets and how to use them and also the mathematics, I am not able to argue. But I am sure you know what I meant when I said that a spreadsheet is ‘totally’ worthless if you cannot trust it, if it -- the program, its features or functions -- does not work (behave) as supposed. As an engineer I have been working with MSExcel since late 1980 and have since 10 years successively began to use OO/LO. I’ve always tried to crosscheck important calculations and with calculation processes start with some few (random or logical) sample data and/or manual calcs to be sure that the formulas ( combinations of) work OK. Whatever people say about Microsoft, I must say that I have never experienced any problems caused by the program MSExcel itself (perhaps I’ve been lucky) – all my problems have been caused by my typos or my bad planning of the calculation process. But, especially with LibreOffice/Calc I have experienced issues that clearly depend on LO as a program and have caused me a lot of extra doings – the last couple of years LO has become better. Regarding the articles. If the programming of the very big programs is purchased from a third party where the programmer -- the person -- does not have no own knowledge (understanding) about the customer's process, then it is an unavoidable necessity that there will be flaws and serious issues -- regarless of branch. Anyhow, the fact is that Microsoft has a 90 percent market share and every MSO suite includes MSExcel. Above this are e.g. AOO/OO/LOwith roughly 2 mega spreadsheet users and their applications. That means that quite a lot of – some very important -- calculations are globally done with these MSOALO (..etc..) spreadsheets. If the spreadsheets are that unreliable as these articles (and you) explain, should it not then be good - if not a necessity – to warn about it? Experts and “nerds” can manage but not ordinary users like me. I like LibreOffice and respect its intensions and thus I want it to be better. If LO really wants to increase its market share – to beat MSO, a benefit for all users – then it has to eliminate every possible cause of problems especially for the ‘ordinary user’ -- even the small ones like that sorting issue. The ordinary user selects a range and pushes the sort button -- if the sort does not behave as expected, and there is no explanation why or how and the help is too difficult to find -- then he/she considers this a problem. Too many problems is not good for LO. It is the mass of ‘ordinary users’ that build most of the MSO’s market share. The main and final responsibility lies – not on the (unpaid) programmer -- but on the controlling team in the LO organization. It is better to fix problems at a stage of planning and production than after a global distribution(ref. to Quality Management Systems). regards Pertti Rönnberg On 27.3.2015 15:25, Brian Barker wrote: At 12:38 27/03/2015 +0200, Pertti Rönnberg wrote: A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! It's perhaps worth a reminder that, in the sense that you mean it, spreadsheets can never be trusted. Since much of their essential functionality is hidden (formulae, formatting, significant options) and they are untestable, you should never rely on the results of a spreadsheet. Your judgement, then (but not mine) is that spreadsheet programs generally are totally worthless. See, for example: http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2014/05/23/you-shouldnt-use-a-spreadsheet-for-important-work-i-mean-it/ I will happily use a spreadsheet to estimate the grades of my students, my retirement savings, or how much tax I paid last year… but I will not use Microsoft Excel to run a bank or to compute the trajectory of the space shuttle. Spreadsheets are convenient but error prone. http://baselinescenario.com/2013/02/09/the-importance-of-excel/ But while Excel the program is reasonably robust, the spreadsheets that people create with Excel are incredibly fragile. http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/spreadsheet/product_pubs_files/Literature.pdf Among those who study spreadsheet use, it is widely accepted that errors are prevalent in operational spreadsheets and that errors can lead to poor decisions and cost millions of dollars. Panko summarized this literature by reporting that 94% of spreadsheets have errors, with an average cell error rate of 5.2%. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Tim Lloyd's comment is not acceptable! This is not a question of a (unpaid) programmer's likings or priorities -- this is a serious question of Libre Office's liability, because both of the the sort buttons in the toolbar (asc desc) give wrong results as well as there is no clear explanation why and how the sort command in Data= sort must be customized if yopu want a correct result. A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! These bugs are a result of very bad planning and an obviously total lack of control testing of the programming before it was accepted as a feature in Calc and the complete LibreOffice suite. Neither is this really not a game -- anyone who goes for to programming something for LibreOffice must feel the responsibility for the result -- as well as the controlling team (if any?). The sort feature is a very important feature why these faults have to be corrected immediately the function of both the sort buttons set to normal sort of a selected range all selections set to blanc in Data=sort=options Pertti Rönnberg On 26.3.2015 2:12, Tim Lloyd wrote: Hi, while LO does allow a certain amount of customisation, at this point in the game this particular menu option can not be changed. This then becomes a feature request, either * change the default * allow the sort options to be customised Once a feature request is submitted it is really up to a (unpaid) programmer to step forward and take on the action. I can't see this being high on the programmer's list of priorities but it may be deemed an easy hack which an aspiring young person could field. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:58, Richard VINCK wrote: Tim Lloyd Thank you for pointing this. Indeed, unticking it works then correctly. But it should be the default, and should remain unticked. (and should be more visible, as it is hidden in the Option tab) Can we make it as default? On 2015-03-26 00:42, Tim Lloyd wrote: A quick look at the doco reveals... Range contains column/row labels – omits the first row or the first column in the selection from the sort Untick this box and you are sorted. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi :) I think you meant that the background behind Tim's answer is not acceptable. His actual answer seems very honest, truthful and useful. It is not a voice of arbitrary authority but one of wisdom and counsel. One problem with emails is that we don't hear the tone of voice nor any clues from body-language. Of course a lot of us in IT don't process that sort of stuff in face-to-face communications either but that's another story. On this mailing list we have absolutely no control over what the devs do nor how this project is run and we are almost never asked for our opinions on what might be a good way. We can only give answers to try to help users figure out how to use the suite as it is, and maybe grumble about oddities and issues related, such as the fading dominance of the MS formats. We are free to join other lists such as Discuss@ and the social media channels but most of us on this mailing-list are only interested in just helping people directly. Several answers in this thread have been 'brutally' honest with no false apologies or soft-pedalling the truth or giving it any spin (err, except with a blatant cough rather than my usual sarcastic quotes ' ). From my own experience i suspect many of the answers so far have been answered off-list by one of the higher ups berating them and possibly threatening to ban them from the lists. To me Tim's answer seems a bit heroic, not quite on the scale of children in any war-torn area, but still admirable. He makes a stand for truth and honesty and that might have got him in trouble already. However just because something is not done quite the same way as it's done in MS Office or/and is not intuitive to some people does not necessarily make it wrong. The main problem here, in my opinion, is that it wasn't easy to figure out and documentation may not have been easy enough to get to. Of course now that we have had this answer on the list it will probably crop up again quite soon and we have a quick answer ready. Regards from Tom :) On 27 March 2015 at 10:38, Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi wrote: Tim Lloyd's comment is not acceptable! This is not a question of a (unpaid) programmer's likings or priorities -- this is a serious question of Libre Office's liability, because both of the the sort buttons in the toolbar (asc desc) give wrong results as well as there is no clear explanation why and how the sort command in Data= sort must be customized if yopu want a correct result. A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! These bugs are a result of very bad planning and an obviously total lack of control testing of the programming before it was accepted as a feature in Calc and the complete LibreOffice suite. Neither is this really not a game -- anyone who goes for to programming something for LibreOffice must feel the responsibility for the result -- as well as the controlling team (if any?). The sort feature is a very important feature why these faults have to be corrected immediately the function of both the sort buttons set to normal sort of a selected range all selections set to blanc in Data=sort=options Pertti Rönnberg On 26.3.2015 2:12, Tim Lloyd wrote: Hi, while LO does allow a certain amount of customisation, at this point in the game this particular menu option can not be changed. This then becomes a feature request, either * change the default * allow the sort options to be customised Once a feature request is submitted it is really up to a (unpaid) programmer to step forward and take on the action. I can't see this being high on the programmer's list of priorities but it may be deemed an easy hack which an aspiring young person could field. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:58, Richard VINCK wrote: Tim Lloyd Thank you for pointing this. Indeed, unticking it works then correctly. But it should be the default, and should remain unticked. (and should be more visible, as it is hidden in the Option tab) Can we make it as default? On 2015-03-26 00:42, Tim Lloyd wrote: A quick look at the doco reveals... Range contains column/row labels – omits the first row or the first column in the selection from the sort Untick this box and you are sorted. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi :) Err the fading dominance of MS formats is good but the dominance part is really annoying and causes a lot of unnecessary agro. Regards from Tom :) On 27 March 2015 at 12:01, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) I think you meant that the background behind Tim's answer is not acceptable. His actual answer seems very honest, truthful and useful. It is not a voice of arbitrary authority but one of wisdom and counsel. One problem with emails is that we don't hear the tone of voice nor any clues from body-language. Of course a lot of us in IT don't process that sort of stuff in face-to-face communications either but that's another story. On this mailing list we have absolutely no control over what the devs do nor how this project is run and we are almost never asked for our opinions on what might be a good way. We can only give answers to try to help users figure out how to use the suite as it is, and maybe grumble about oddities and issues related, such as the fading dominance of the MS formats. We are free to join other lists such as Discuss@ and the social media channels but most of us on this mailing-list are only interested in just helping people directly. Several answers in this thread have been 'brutally' honest with no false apologies or soft-pedalling the truth or giving it any spin (err, except with a blatant cough rather than my usual sarcastic quotes ' ). From my own experience i suspect many of the answers so far have been answered off-list by one of the higher ups berating them and possibly threatening to ban them from the lists. To me Tim's answer seems a bit heroic, not quite on the scale of children in any war-torn area, but still admirable. He makes a stand for truth and honesty and that might have got him in trouble already. However just because something is not done quite the same way as it's done in MS Office or/and is not intuitive to some people does not necessarily make it wrong. The main problem here, in my opinion, is that it wasn't easy to figure out and documentation may not have been easy enough to get to. Of course now that we have had this answer on the list it will probably crop up again quite soon and we have a quick answer ready. Regards from Tom :) On 27 March 2015 at 10:38, Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi wrote: Tim Lloyd's comment is not acceptable! This is not a question of a (unpaid) programmer's likings or priorities -- this is a serious question of Libre Office's liability, because both of the the sort buttons in the toolbar (asc desc) give wrong results as well as there is no clear explanation why and how the sort command in Data= sort must be customized if yopu want a correct result. A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! These bugs are a result of very bad planning and an obviously total lack of control testing of the programming before it was accepted as a feature in Calc and the complete LibreOffice suite. Neither is this really not a game -- anyone who goes for to programming something for LibreOffice must feel the responsibility for the result -- as well as the controlling team (if any?). The sort feature is a very important feature why these faults have to be corrected immediately the function of both the sort buttons set to normal sort of a selected range all selections set to blanc in Data=sort=options Pertti Rönnberg On 26.3.2015 2:12, Tim Lloyd wrote: Hi, while LO does allow a certain amount of customisation, at this point in the game this particular menu option can not be changed. This then becomes a feature request, either * change the default * allow the sort options to be customised Once a feature request is submitted it is really up to a (unpaid) programmer to step forward and take on the action. I can't see this being high on the programmer's list of priorities but it may be deemed an easy hack which an aspiring young person could field. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:58, Richard VINCK wrote: Tim Lloyd Thank you for pointing this. Indeed, unticking it works then correctly. But it should be the default, and should remain unticked. (and should be more visible, as it is hidden in the Option tab) Can we make it as default? On 2015-03-26 00:42, Tim Lloyd wrote: A quick look at the doco reveals... Range contains column/row labels – omits the first row or the first column in the selection from the sort Untick this box and you are sorted. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine:
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
At 12:38 27/03/2015 +0200, Pertti Rönnberg wrote: A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally worthless!! It's perhaps worth a reminder that, in the sense that you mean it, spreadsheets can never be trusted. Since much of their essential functionality is hidden (formulae, formatting, significant options) and they are untestable, you should never rely on the results of a spreadsheet. Your judgement, then (but not mine) is that spreadsheet programs generally are totally worthless. See, for example: http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2014/05/23/you-shouldnt-use-a-spreadsheet-for-important-work-i-mean-it/ I will happily use a spreadsheet to estimate the grades of my students, my retirement savings, or how much tax I paid last year but I will not use Microsoft Excel to run a bank or to compute the trajectory of the space shuttle. Spreadsheets are convenient but error prone. http://baselinescenario.com/2013/02/09/the-importance-of-excel/ But while Excel the program is reasonably robust, the spreadsheets that people create with Excel are incredibly fragile. http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/spreadsheet/product_pubs_files/Literature.pdf Among those who study spreadsheet use, it is widely accepted that errors are prevalent in operational spreadsheets and that errors can lead to poor decisions and cost millions of dollars. Panko summarized this literature by reporting that 94% of spreadsheets have errors, with an average cell error rate of 5.2%. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
On 3/25/15 8:12 PM, Tim Lloyd wrote: at this point in the game this particular menu option can not be changed. See, now *THAT* is an answer we can live with. Thank you! I hate it but now I know what the problem (behind the scenes) is. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
A quick look at the doco reveals... Range contains column/row labels – omits the first row or the first column in the selection from the sort Untick this box and you are sorted. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
**cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. I tried with several sets of letters: p a b q r z The above is the sorted column. a isnt first? hmmm Wade -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Richard VINCK charvi...@gmail.com wrote: Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. Hopefully I could be of help making the software still better! Cheers Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hello at the nice people at LibreOffice! (especially you :-) ) I'm using LibreOffice version 4.4.1.2 I was very surprised to see a bug (?!) in the internal SORT function of Calc. Please fill the following cells with a simple letter: L17=Z L18=B L19=Y L20=R L21=Q L22=P Now select those 6 cells and click on the Down/Up arrow in the toolbar (Sort), select Sort Key 1 : Z, Ascending, then click OK. Expected result was B-P-Q-R-Y-Z, but the Z did not move at all ! =-O This is undoubtedly a serious bug... and nobody has detected this before? How strange. Hopefully I could be of help making the software still better! Cheers Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
If Sort By shows the data in the first cell then it is being treated as a column header. Go to the Options tab and correct the item regarding the sort range including the header. Dave On 3/25/2015 16:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hi, while LO does allow a certain amount of customisation, at this point in the game this particular menu option can not be changed. This then becomes a feature request, either * change the default * allow the sort options to be customised Once a feature request is submitted it is really up to a (unpaid) programmer to step forward and take on the action. I can't see this being high on the programmer's list of priorities but it may be deemed an easy hack which an aspiring young person could field. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:58, Richard VINCK wrote: Tim Lloyd Thank you for pointing this. Indeed, unticking it works then correctly. But it should be the default, and should remain unticked. (and should be more visible, as it is hidden in the Option tab) Can we make it as default? On 2015-03-26 00:42, Tim Lloyd wrote: A quick look at the doco reveals... Range contains column/row labels – omits the first row or the first column in the selection from the sort Untick this box and you are sorted. Cheers On 26/03/15 10:06, Wade Smart wrote: Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?
Hmm I just tried to sort going through the sort menu and I still cant get it to sort properly. It does numbers just fine though. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Wade Smart wadesm...@gmail.com wrote: **cough cough** .. feature understood. -- Registered Linux User: #480675 Registered Linux Machine: #408606 Linux since June 2005 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Michael Tiernan michael.tier...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/25/15 6:53 PM, Wade Smart wrote: I have 4.2.7.2 on Ubuntu 14.04 and you are correct, sort is not working. When I reported it, I provided a great deal of information about it and was told Not a bug and works for me by those who have the power to close bugs. My argument was/is that if you use the sort arrows (as you have done here) then you're asking/telling LO to sort the selected rows with no options. Instead it was deemed correct that instead, LO assumes the first cell found is used as a label regardless of any other settings. This feature (*cough*) cost me a number of hours of work to get around and avoid. The argument is that since you can use the Sort menu option and change this behavior *for each sort occurrence* then there's a work around for the feature and we should be happy with that. -- MCT Michael C Tiernan. http://www.linkedin.com/in/mtiernan Non Impediti Ratione Cogatationis Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea. -Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
