Re: Fwd: Re: Google Apps

[toki]

On 02/15/2018 12:30 PM, Winter wrote:

> My opinion is correct 

Your opinion holds water for you, and you alone.

For other people, your opinion is not only flat out wrong, but also
anti-intuitive, counter-productive, and guarantee to ensure zero
productivity.

>If this is the way your Tech responds to customers 

You do realize that you are not communicating with tech support, don't you?

>I can see why you create an inferior product. 

Inferior/superior has to do with the specific use case for which the
product is being used. For some use cases, Apache OpenOffice is several
orders of magnitude superior to Microsoft Office.  For other user cases,
the reverse is true.

>You could have listened to my concerns instead you want to

What is intuitive for one person, is anything but intuitive for another
person. Consider, for example, the difference between somebody who
learned keyboarding using vi, and somebody who learned keyboarding using
EMACS, and somebody who learnt keyboarding using WordStar.

All three users will be more productive (^1) in the environment that
they learned keyboarding in, than using a GUI interface. However, for
somebody who learned keyboarding via a GUI, vi, EMACS, and WordStar are
incomprehensible mysteries that are grossly inefficient.

>You know damn well the intent of my sentence 

>From where I'm sitting, your intent is either to prove that your IQ is
the reciprocal of what you claim it is, or else that you have zero
knowledge about keyboarding, data entry, or even computers in general
--- including how to use basic office software.

> product should not be so complicated that I have to dig through forums to do 
> your job.

The job of the user is to learn what their tools are, and how to use
them. People that can't be bothered learning what their tools are, and
how to use them, find everything complicated.


^1: The research implies that a knowledgable user is more than twice as
productive using keyboard commands, and GUI commands.


jonathon

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Re: Fwd: Re: Google Apps

[Matthias Seidel]

Please don't SPAM our mailing list!
We are all volunteers. There is no company and there are no employees.

Take a deep breath and try to understand the world around you...


Am 15.02.2018 um 13:40 schrieb Winter:
> This is inappropriate. My comments may have been rude. But I am not
> your employ.
>
>
>
>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: Re: Google Apps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:57:15 +
> From: Brian Barker 
> To: Gary Leroy Wampnar 
>
>
>
> At 15:31 14/02/2018 -0600, you wrote:
>> This is why after years I have now stopped using Open Office and
>> switched to Google Apps.
>
> Ah, so you have been using it successfully for years?
>
>> I am a programmer.
>
> Good: so you'll know what you are doing, then.
>
>> I quickly dump software that does not comply to User Ergonomics.
>
> Er, hold on: you are dumping OpenOffice "quickly" after using it for
> years? That makes no sense at all!
>
>> It should be simple and intuitive. Especially the simplest task.
>
> Yes, matters should be made as simple as passable, but that is by no
> means always trivial. If I buy a piano, I don't expect playing the
> Moonlight Sonata to come easily: I have to learn how to operate the
> instrument. If I buy a car, I don't expect to be able to complete the
> "simplest task" of driving to work without extensive lessons and
> setting up fuel, licensing, insurance, and so on. Using computer
> software is similar: you need to expect to learn how to drive it
> before you can be proficient. It's very difficult to see how you are
> a programmer but apparently do not appreciate this simple idea.
>
>> All I wanted was to set up a budget like I have many time in Open
>> Office but the Sum command now does not sum.
>
> Well, it does, of course - and you know it does, as you have used it
> before. Nothing has changed. Simple logic implies that you are now
> simply doing something different to create your problem, although you
> may well not recognise this.
>
>> Why? I read online suggestions which mentioned it could have
>> something to do with the value being treated as Text with no
>> explanation to convert them to numerical values.
>
> If you don't understand this distinction, you are very much a
> beginner at using spreadsheets - and you will find the same problem
> whichever spreadsheet software you choose to use - yes, even
> Google's. What you see is *not* what you get in spreadsheets, and
> never has been:
>
> o What is displayed in a spreadsheet cell is a *version* of the value
> hidden in that cell, according to the formatting of that cell - which
> you may have set explicitly or may have been determined from what you
> typed or pasted. For your spreadsheets to work, you need to be aware
> of the format type of all your data.
>
> o When you type values into a spreadsheet, they are - possibly
> invisibly - edited by the software to determine what is actually
> stored in the cell. This is a convenience, in fact, but will confuse
> you if you have not learned the basics about spreadsheets. (You will
> not be the first person to make this mistake.)
>
>> It seemed quickly much easier to sign in to Google. Goodbye.
>
> You are very welcome, of course, to choose to use any alternative
> software you wish. Yes, really. But if speed means to you avoiding
> learning about the tool and about your own mistakes, you will find
> the same problems in the future. Google's offering will behave in a
> very similar way; if it didn't, users would be complaining! In
> particular, if you enter your data there *in exactly the same way*
> (do not confuse typing with pasting, for example), you will see the
> same results there. Why not - instead of complaining that OpenOffice
> doesn't work - ask about your problem on the mailing list and learn
> the solution?
>
>> I have little patience when companies make simple tasks complicated.
>
> Again, this makes no sense:
> o You cannot say that you have "little patience" with something after
> claiming to have used it for years!
> o Surely you know enough about OpenOffice to appreciate that it is
> created by a cooperative venture, not a "company"?
> o Like most things, when you understand it, you will find the way
> spreadsheets work a convenience, not a complication.
>
> OK: now to your problem. If you have managed to enter values as text
> instead of as numbers, you will not expect to be able to calculate
> with them. But there are easy solutions. You may need to set the
> format of cells before you enter data (though you probably don't, in
> fact). If you have entered values inappropriately, there are easy
> ways to correct your mistake. You can find these in the help text, in
> the documentation available from the web site (you have read this,
> haven't you?), through a web search, or by asking on this mailing list.
>
> It always amuses me when people making such claims choose to
> advertise them to hundreds, perhaps a 

Fwd: Re: Google Apps

[Winter]

My opinion is correct and I don't take time with people whose responses 
are nothing more than to inflame. I was your customer. If this is the 
way your Tech rsponds to customers I can see why you create an inferior 
product. You could have listened to my concerns instead you want to 
defend yourself by attacking me. I made the comment that I quickly 
changed to Google Apps and one smart ass responded... o I thought you 
used it for years. There is no reason to respond to you. You know damn 
well the intent of my sentence and if you think masquerading as Forum 
Troll is the same as providing tech support. I stand by what I said your 
product should not be so complicated that I have to dig through forums 
to do your job.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Google Apps
Date:   Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:40:17 +1100
From:   Martin Groenescheij 
Reply-To:   users@openoffice.apache.org
To: users@openoffice.apache.org
CC: Winter 



This mailing list is to get help from users like you and me.
As you're not subscribed to this mailing list and haven't asked for help


On 15/02/18 8:31 AM, Winter wrote:
This is why after years I have now stopped using Open Office and 
switched to Google Apps. I am a programmer.


I expect from programmers that they know the difference between
importing Numbers and Text.

I quickly dump software that does not comply to User Ergonomics. It 
should be simple and intuitive. Especially the simplest task.


Then Google Apps. is the tool for you, please come back when you need to
do more complex tasks.

All I wanted was to set up a budget like I have many time in Open 
Office but the Sum command now does not sum. Why? I read online 
suggestions which mentioned it could have something to do with the 
value being treated as Text with no explanation to convert them to 
numerical values.


If you have Cells formatted as Text it will store imported values as
text, at the top you can see a ` in front of the number when stored as text.
Changing the Cell format to numeric doesn't help.  You can use a formula
like =VALUE(A1:A25) in a empty column and Paste Special the result
back into Column A with only the numeric option ticked.

It seemed quickly much easier to sign in to Google. Goodbye. I have 
little patience when companies make simple tasks complicated.



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Fwd: Re: Google Apps

[Winter]

This is inappropriate. My comments may have been rude. But I am not your 
employ.




 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Google Apps
Date:   Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:57:15 +
From:   Brian Barker 
To: Gary Leroy Wampnar 



At 15:31 14/02/2018 -0600, you wrote:
This is why after years I have now stopped using Open Office and 
switched to Google Apps.


Ah, so you have been using it successfully for years?


I am a programmer.


Good: so you'll know what you are doing, then.


I quickly dump software that does not comply to User Ergonomics.


Er, hold on: you are dumping OpenOffice "quickly" after using it for
years? That makes no sense at all!


It should be simple and intuitive. Especially the simplest task.


Yes, matters should be made as simple as passable, but that is by no
means always trivial. If I buy a piano, I don't expect playing the
Moonlight Sonata to come easily: I have to learn how to operate the
instrument. If I buy a car, I don't expect to be able to complete the
"simplest task" of driving to work without extensive lessons and
setting up fuel, licensing, insurance, and so on. Using computer
software is similar: you need to expect to learn how to drive it
before you can be proficient. It's very difficult to see how you are
a programmer but apparently do not appreciate this simple idea.

All I wanted was to set up a budget like I have many time in Open 
Office but the Sum command now does not sum.


Well, it does, of course - and you know it does, as you have used it
before. Nothing has changed. Simple logic implies that you are now
simply doing something different to create your problem, although you
may well not recognise this.

Why? I read online suggestions which mentioned it could have 
something to do with the value being treated as Text with no 
explanation to convert them to numerical values.


If you don't understand this distinction, you are very much a
beginner at using spreadsheets - and you will find the same problem
whichever spreadsheet software you choose to use - yes, even
Google's. What you see is *not* what you get in spreadsheets, and
never has been:

o What is displayed in a spreadsheet cell is a *version* of the value
hidden in that cell, according to the formatting of that cell - which
you may have set explicitly or may have been determined from what you
typed or pasted. For your spreadsheets to work, you need to be aware
of the format type of all your data.

o When you type values into a spreadsheet, they are - possibly
invisibly - edited by the software to determine what is actually
stored in the cell. This is a convenience, in fact, but will confuse
you if you have not learned the basics about spreadsheets. (You will
not be the first person to make this mistake.)


It seemed quickly much easier to sign in to Google. Goodbye.


You are very welcome, of course, to choose to use any alternative
software you wish. Yes, really. But if speed means to you avoiding
learning about the tool and about your own mistakes, you will find
the same problems in the future. Google's offering will behave in a
very similar way; if it didn't, users would be complaining! In
particular, if you enter your data there *in exactly the same way*
(do not confuse typing with pasting, for example), you will see the
same results there. Why not - instead of complaining that OpenOffice
doesn't work - ask about your problem on the mailing list and learn
the solution?


I have little patience when companies make simple tasks complicated.


Again, this makes no sense:
o You cannot say that you have "little patience" with something after
claiming to have used it for years!
o Surely you know enough about OpenOffice to appreciate that it is
created by a cooperative venture, not a "company"?
o Like most things, when you understand it, you will find the way
spreadsheets work a convenience, not a complication.

OK: now to your problem. If you have managed to enter values as text
instead of as numbers, you will not expect to be able to calculate
with them. But there are easy solutions. You may need to set the
format of cells before you enter data (though you probably don't, in
fact). If you have entered values inappropriately, there are easy
ways to correct your mistake. You can find these in the help text, in
the documentation available from the web site (you have read this,
haven't you?), through a web search, or by asking on this mailing list.

It always amuses me when people making such claims choose to
advertise them to hundreds, perhaps a thousand or two, of fellow
users around the world, most of whom will understand the software
well enough not to find the same problems. Why not describe your
problem instead and obtain help?

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker - privately