[vchkpw] qmailmrtg not showing some graphs
Hi list, I am running qmailmrtg 4.0 on a 64bit-Linux (Gentoo) and have been running into the following situation: qmailmrtg works, but graphs which have to be read out of logfiles (such as msgs, local/remote concurrency) are not shown. Graphs which are processed from other resources (CPU load etc.) are shown. qmail.mrtg.cfg looks like this (stripped example) - Language: german WorkDir: /var/www/localhost/htdocs/qmailmrtg # Title[msg]: Messages - FQDN MaxBytes[msg]: 10 AbsMax[msg]: 20 Options[msg]: gauge, growright Target[msg]: `/usr/local/bin/qmailmrtg7 m /var/log/qmail` PageTop[msg]: BFQDN Messages/Bbr ShortLegend[msg]: msg YLegend[msg]: msg/hour Legend1[msg]: Total Msgnbsp; LegendI[msg]: Deliveries:nbsp; LegendO[msg]: Attempts:nbsp; WithPeak[msg]: ymwd XSize[msg]: 350 YSize[msg]: 150 #--- Title[queue-size]: Queue Size - FQDN MaxBytes[queue-size]: 1 AbsMax[queue-size]: 10 Options[queue-size]: gauge, growright Target[queue-size]: `/usr/local/bin/qmailmrtg7 q /var/qmail/queue` PageTop[queue-size]: BFQDN Queue Size/Bbr ShortLegend[queue-size]: Msg YLegend[queue-size]: msg total Legend1[queue-size]: msgnbsp; LegendI[queue-size]: msgnbsp; LegendO[queue-size]: unprocessed msg:nbsp; WithPeak[queue-size]: ymwd XSize[queue-size]: 350 YSize[queue-size]: 150 - Graphs for queue-size are shown, for messages not. Permissions are set to 644 qmaill:nofiles for files and to 755 qmaill:nofiles for directories. messstatus.log looks like: (only first 10 lines are posted here) 1088502602 0 0 1088502602 0 0 0 0 1088502302 0 0 0 0 1088502300 0 0 0 0 1088502000 0 0 0 0 1088501700 0 0 0 0 1088501400 0 0 0 0 1088501100 0 0 0 0 1088500800 0 0 0 0 1088500500 0 0 0 0 queue-size.log looks like: (again only first 10 lines are posted here) 1088502601 11219 0 1088502601 11219 0 11219 0 1088502301 11120 0 11120 0 1088502300 11120 0 11205 0 1088502000 11205 0 11234 0 1088501700 11233 0 11234 0 1088501400 11178 0 11178 0 1088501100 11262 0 11281 0 1088500800 11281 0 11281 0 1088500500 11280 0 11281 0 Does anybody know how to solve this problem? I had the same config running with an older version of qmailmrtg (don't know which one and don't have the sources) on a 32bit-one for years without any problems. Greetings Tobias
Re: [vchkpw] Authentication
i installed qmail using lwq and configured the domain name as eriva.erivaind.com then i created a virtual domain with vpopmail as erivaind.com and added 2 users anu and puneet using qmailadmin. i configured outlook express in one of the client pcs. with pop and smtp servers as 192.168.1.9(the ip address of the pc in which the server is installed) the pop authentication is working well. from the outlook express configured at the client pc, i am able to check for the incoming messages but not able to send messages. The message i m getting is: Your server has unexpectedly terminated the connection. Possible causes for this include server problems, network problems, or a long period of inactivity. Account: '192..168.1.9', Server: '192.168.1.9', Protocol: SMTP, Port: 25, Secure(SSL): No, Error Number: 0x800CCC0F --- when i tried telnet to the local host as follows, i get the following message. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# telnet 192.168.1.9 25 Trying 192.168.1.9... Connected to 192.168.1.9. Escape character is '^]'. 220 eriva.erivaind.com ESMTP user [EMAIL PROTECTED] 502 unimplemented (#5.5.1) - any idea what has gone wrong ? regards, Anu
[vchkpw] vpopmail installation on Mandrake 10
Hi there. I am trying to set an email server. I installed qmail with urpmi, and want to install qmailadmin. I know the requirements and could install autorespond and ezmlm. But I am having difficulties installing the vpopmail. Here is what I wrote to konsole: [EMAIL PROTECTED] vpopmail-5.4.5]# groupadd -g 89 vchkpw [EMAIL PROTECTED] vpopmail-5.4.5]# useradd -g vchkpw -u 89 -d /home/vpopmail vpopmail [EMAIL PROTECTED] vpopmail-5.4.5]# ./configure --enable-clear-passwd --enable-valias --enable-mysql-replication *** NO ERRORS HERE *** vpopmail 5.4.5 Current settings --- vpopmail directory = /home/vpopmail uid = 89 gid = 89 roaming users = OFF --disable-roaming-users (default) password learning = OFF --disable-learn-passwords (default) md5 passwords = ON --enable-md5-passwords (default) file locking = ON --enable-file-locking (default) vdelivermail fsync = OFF --disable-file-sync (default) make seekable = ON --enable-make-seekable (default) clear passwd = ON --enable-clear-passwd (default) user dir hashing = ON --enable-users-big-dir (default) address extensions = OFF --disable-qmail-ext (default) ip alias = OFF --disable-ip-alias-domains (default) domain quotas = OFF --disable-domainquotas (default) auth module = cdb --enable-auth-module=cdb (default) auth inc = -Icdb auth lib = system passwords = OFF --disable-passwd (default) pop syslog = show only failed attempts --enable-logging=e (default) auth logging = ON --enable-auth-logging (default) [EMAIL PROTECTED] vpopmail-5.4.5]# make cd . \ /bin/sh /home/vpopmail-5.4.5/missing --run automake --foreign Makefile configure.in: 89: required file `./_AM_File,.in' not found configure.in: 89: required file `./[$2],.in' not found configure.in: 89: required file `./[$3])].in' not found make: *** [Makefile.in] Error 1 I have no idea, and I am new to Mandrake. Any ideas? Thanks a lot... Kaan Ertürk __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: [vchkpw] Authentication
Dear Anu, Try to send mail using these email ids through Webmail. send the result. Manish Jain (Network Administrator) C-DAC (Ministry of Comm. IT) Anusandhan Bhawan C-56/1, Sec-62, Noida - 201307 Ph91 120 2402563 (Direct) 91 120 2402551-60 (Ext-718) FAX 91 120 2402569 - Original Message - From: Anuradha Kalyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [vchkpw] Authentication i installed qmail using lwq and configured the domain name as eriva.erivaind.com then i created a virtual domain with vpopmail as erivaind.com and added 2 users anu and puneet using qmailadmin. i configured outlook express in one of the client pcs. with pop and smtp servers as 192.168.1.9(the ip address of the pc in which the server is installed) the pop authentication is working well. from the outlook express configured at the client pc, i am able to check for the incoming messages but not able to send messages. The message i m getting is: Your server has unexpectedly terminated the connection. Possible causes for this include server problems, network problems, or a long period of inactivity. Account: '192..168.1.9', Server: '192.168.1.9', Protocol: SMTP, Port: 25, Secure(SSL): No, Error Number: 0x800CCC0F --- when i tried telnet to the local host as follows, i get the following message. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# telnet 192.168.1.9 25 Trying 192.168.1.9... Connected to 192.168.1.9. Escape character is '^]'. 220 eriva.erivaind.com ESMTP user [EMAIL PROTECTED] 502 unimplemented (#5.5.1) - any idea what has gone wrong ? regards, Anu
Re: [vchkpw] vpopmail installation on Mandrake 10
On Jun 29, 2004, at 4:20 AM, Kaan Ertürk wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] vpopmail-5.4.5]# make cd . \ /bin/sh /home/vpopmail-5.4.5/missing --run automake --foreign Makefile configure.in: 89: required file `./_AM_File,.in' not found configure.in: 89: required file `./[$2],.in' not found configure.in: 89: required file `./[$3])].in' not found make: *** [Makefile.in] Error 1 I have no idea, and I am new to Mandrake. Any ideas? Thanks a lot... Type 'libtoolize' in a fresh vpopmail source directory and try again. It sounds like your version of the libtools isn't working properly with the files built by the developer's version. -- Tom Collins - [EMAIL PROTECTED] QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/ Info on the Sniffter hand-held Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/
[vchkpw] SQL Error
I'm not exactly sure which list to bounce this request off of but I'll start here. If this would be better on a different list, please let me know. ok... Server farm setup is srv01 - mysql-master database. srv02, srv03 and srv04 are machines with identical installation of qmail/mysql/vpopmail/courier/etc... (built using Matt Simerson's toaster.) srv05 is an NFS storage server. srv02, srv03 and srv04 have mysql servers that are replicated from srv01. vpopmail version is 5.4.2 ucspi-tcp is 0.88 with Simerson's mysql+rss patch. courier-imap is 3.0.2 mysql is 4.0.18 (srv01 through srv04 have same versions) Everything seems to be working fine but the last couple of days, I'll occassionaly see the following in my logs. Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 vpopmail[47983]: vchkpw-pop3: vpopmail user not found [EMAIL PROTECTED]:10.x.x.x Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 imapd: vmysql: sql error[1]: Can't create database 'vpopmail'. Database exists Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 vpopmail[47986]: vchkpw-pop3: (PLAIN) login success [EMAIL PROTECTED]:x.x.x.x Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 vpopmail[47988]: vchkpw-pop3: (PLAIN) login success [EMAIL PROTECTED]:x.x.x.x Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 imapd: vmysql: sql error[1]: Can't create database 'vpopmail'. Database exists Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 imapd: vmysql: sql error[1]: Can't create database 'vpopmail'. Database exists Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 vpopmail[47976]: vchkpw-pop3: vpopmail user not found [EMAIL PROTECTED]:x.x.x.x Jun 29 11:07:23 srv03 imapd: LOGIN FAILED, ip=[:::172.x.x.x] Jun 29 11:07:23 srv03 last message repeated 2 times Jun 29 11:07:24 srv03 vpopmail[48017]: vchkpw-pop3: (PLAIN) login success [EMAIL PROTECTED]:10.x.x.x What would cause the vmysql: sql error[1]: Can't create database 'vpopmail'. Database exists ?? When running in DNS round robin configuration, when this error happens it seems to happen on all three machines at the same time. I'm doing a carbon copy of my Yahoo account to help make sure I see responses as there is a chance due to this error that my mail mail server cluster may not be receiving all email. Thanks for any help. David Brinks -- Power-Net Internet Services -- Network Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] Local Office : 402 N. Mission, Mt.Pleasant, MI 48858 Phone : 989.772.1121 Fax : 989.772.8008
Re: [vchkpw] Authentication
On Jun 29, 2004, at 3:58 AM, Anuradha Kalyan wrote: when i tried telnet to the local host as follows, i get the following message. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# telnet 192.168.1.9 25 Trying 192.168.1.9... Connected to 192.168.1.9. Escape character is '^]'. 220 eriva.erivaind.com ESMTP user [EMAIL PROTECTED] 502 unimplemented (#5.5.1) - any idea what has gone wrong ? That's not the way to do SMTP AUTH. Check out this very useful tutorial by Erwin Hoffmann, which includes instructions on testing an SMTP AUTH setup. http://www.fehcom.de/qmail/smtpauth.html Does LWQ include SMTP AUTH patches to qmail-smtpd? Stock qmail doesn't include that feature. -- Tom Collins - [EMAIL PROTECTED] QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/ Info on the Sniffter hand-held Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/
Re: [vchkpw] SQL Error
David Brinks wrote: I'm not exactly sure which list to bounce this request off of but I'll start here. If this would be better on a different list, please let me know. ok... Server farm setup is srv01 - mysql-master database. srv02, srv03 and srv04 are machines with identical installation of qmail/mysql/vpopmail/courier/etc... (built using Matt Simerson's toaster.) srv05 is an NFS storage server. srv02, srv03 and srv04 have mysql servers that are replicated from srv01. vpopmail version is 5.4.2 ucspi-tcp is 0.88 with Simerson's mysql+rss patch. courier-imap is 3.0.2 mysql is 4.0.18 (srv01 through srv04 have same versions) Everything seems to be working fine but the last couple of days, I'll occassionaly see the following in my logs. Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 vpopmail[47983]: vchkpw-pop3: vpopmail user not found [EMAIL PROTECTED]:10.x.x.x Jun 29 11:07:18 srv03 imapd: vmysql: sql error[1]: Can't create database 'vpopmail'. Database exists Hi, Upgraded to vpopmail 5.4.5, part of the release was fixes to the mysql code. Regards, Rick
Re: [vchkpw] Vpopmail 5.4.5 released
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:34:30 +0700 François Wautier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, The patch applies does not solve the underlying problem, the fact that you cannot connect to the DB server. It just makes sure the system behaves properly even when one cannot access the DB. I see. You said, in your previous message: The code in vpopmail was first trying to connect to the server for a given database. If that was failing, it would try the server only and if that succeeded, it was considering that the server was fine but that the DB was not created. So, wouldnt it be safer to consider the second try, if it succeeds? Sorry, I dont understand why consider that the database was not created only because it took 2 tries to connect to the database. In the case of email delivery, proper behaviour means that the message is put back into the queue for later delivery. Right. In other cases, proper behaviour may means that the system complains it does not know your user. I do not know. Yes, that's actually whats happening. Specially for Outlook users who keep getting a request for their password (using Sylpheed, in my case, I can see the database does not exist error). Now that I think about it, that could be the problem I am having. When using IMP-Courier imap-vpopmail some of my users need to login many times. It could be that, because of the problem, authentication fails and they have to loggin again. Yes, it happes with me using courier + squirrelmail too. thanks! --Jw. Best Regards, François l On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:54:55 +0700 François Wautier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Since I submitted that patch.. I guess I should answer. The code in vpopmail was first trying to connect to the server for a given database. If that was failing, it would try the server only and if that succeeded, it was considering that the server was fine but that the DB was not created. Apparently, under some load, it could happen that the first request would fail, but the second would be accepted... All the patch does is make the code connect to the server first and then use the Database. If the first call fails, the delivery fails (temporary failure) and the message is delivered later. Cheers, François Thanks for the explanation, François :) I was having this problem, not only when delivering messages, but specially when checking POP3 mail (vchkpw). Will that be fixed too? Or am I going to get a different error? Also, using Antonio Nati's qmail-smtpd-chkusr patch (as in http://www.interazioni.it/qmail/qmail-smtpd-chkusr-10.html), what will be the effect with the new corrected mysql patch? I was getting some no such user errors before... thanks! Jean
Re: [vchkpw] SQL Error
David Brinks wrote: Rick, I understand that 5.4.5 fixed some things in mysql code but with the system that is currently in place, why would it work for months then all of a sudden out of the blue just stop working ??? -- David. Hi, Increased volume maybe ? I believe the symptoms you described occurred when MySQL gets overloaded and new connections are not allowed. If you are getting more and more volume, along with increased pop or imap access, then your MySQL server would start getting overloaded and the problem you reported would just start happening out of the blue. Regards, Rick
Re: [vchkpw] Authentication
On Tuesday 29 June 2004 11:01 am, Tom Collins wrote: Does LWQ include SMTP AUTH patches to qmail-smtpd? Stock qmail doesn't include that feature. no, it uses netqmail-1.05 -Jeremy -- Jeremy Kitchen ++ Systems Administrator ++ Inter7 Internet Technologies, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ++ www.inter7.com ++ 866.528.3530 ++ 847.492.0470 int'l kitchen @ #qmail #gentoo on EFnet ++ scriptkitchen.com/qmail
Re: [vchkpw] SQL Error
David Brinks wrote: I'm not exactly sure which list to bounce this request off of but I'll start here. If this would be better on a different list, please let me know. This was just fixed in the latest version of vpopmail... http://sourceforge.net/projects/vpopmail/ Don't forget to recompile everything that uses vpopmail after you update. If you use qmailadmin, you may as well grab the latest version of it too. Rick
[vchkpw] SATA NAS for vpop cluster
I am looking around for a suitable (ie, reasonably priced and performance) NAS unit in order to convert a bunch of standalone servers into a cluster. SATA RAID units seem to be what I am looking for. I would appreciate those out there who have experience using NAS boxes for this purpose to share your wisdom. What are you using ? How has it been working for you ? Any performance issues during busy times etc ? Thanks a lot. Lu
RE: [vchkpw] SATA NAS for vpop cluster
We use netapps (www.netapp.com) and it works great. One of the big things that made me move towards the netapp in place of many of the other NAS units out there was the fact that it runs a nix based OS. Most of the ones, say.. Dell for example just run a stripped down version of windows with file sharing for unix. It doesn't give you the ability to make any tweaks to the nfs server. We've been using the netapps for about 6 months now and it's been awesome. A client that hosts in our datacenter turned us on to the netapps nas units. He's been using them for I think about 2 years now and swears by them. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [vchkpw] SATA NAS for vpop cluster I am looking around for a suitable (ie, reasonably priced and performance) NAS unit in order to convert a bunch of standalone servers into a cluster. SATA RAID units seem to be what I am looking for. I would appreciate those out there who have experience using NAS boxes for this purpose to share your wisdom. What are you using ? How has it been working for you ? Any performance issues during busy times etc ? Thanks a lot. Lu
RE: [vchkpw] SATA NAS for vpop cluster
I am looking around for a suitable (ie, reasonably priced and performance) NAS unit in order to convert a bunch of standalone servers into a cluster. SATA RAID units seem to be what I am looking for. I would appreciate those out there who have experience using NAS boxes for this purpose to share your wisdom. What are you using ? How has it been working for you ? Any performance issues during busy times etc ? Thanks a lot. Lu From: Clayton Weise [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] We use netapps (www.netapp.com) and it works great. One of the big things that made me move towards the netapp in place of many of the other NAS units out there was the fact that it runs a nix based OS. Most of the ones, say.. Dell for example just run a stripped down version of windows with file sharing for unix. It doesn't give you the ability to make any tweaks to the nfs server. We've been using the netapps for about 6 months now and it's been awesome. A client that hosts in our datacenter turned us on to the netapps nas units. He's been using them for I think about 2 years now and swears by them. That's great to hear. Can you let me know the specific model you are using ? How many domains are you currently handling with the above unit ? Also, do you have any redundancy capability in case that box goes down ? Thanks again Clayton Lu
[vchkpw] vdelivermail traversing all maildirs on server before delivering mail
I'm setting up a new server with vpopmail 5.4.4 (should be the latest stable?), and everything was working as it should until I got to the point of load testing. I added 10,000 accounts (not quite as many as I have on the production server, which runs vpopmail 5.2.1) to test.com on the server with this script: #!/bin/bash # Script to create some email accounts on the test server @test.com for i in `seq 1 1`; do /usr/local/vpopmail/bin/vadduser -n [EMAIL PROTECTED] done which completes in fairly short order (took about 2 minutes) with no errors. Looking at the domain in vqadmin and through mysql directly show all the users, and everything looks fine. However, when I then send a mail to any user (doesn't matter which) qmail-local kicks off the delivery process and it takes a LONG time and there is LOTS of disk access. By using the lsof command i was able to see what files vdelivermail had open, and it was pretty clear that it was traversing EVERY maildir on the domain (only one domain right now - I don't know if it would traverse other domains as well) before delivering the mail to the correct Maildir (which it will do eventually). While not documented as not right, it clearly isn't supposed to do that (as it would take forever for the server to get anything done). Is this a known issue? Possibly my compile-time options for vpopmail? Did I do something wrong, or is this a bug? Any comments/suggestions are welcome. -- - Nick Bright Terraworld, Inc http://home.terraworld.net | 888-332-1616
Re: [vchkpw] vdelivermail traversing all maildirs on server before delivering mail
On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Nick Bright wrote: I will try this, but could you elaborate on why that is/would cause this? Is this 'by design' for a setup with domain limits turned on? It's a poor design that requires vdelivermail to traverse the entire domain to determine whether it's over quota or not. -- Tom Collins - [EMAIL PROTECTED] QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/ Info on the Sniffter hand-held Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/
Re: [vchkpw] vdelivermail traversing all maildirs on server before delivering mail
On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 19:20, Tom Collins wrote: On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Nick Bright wrote: I will try this, but could you elaborate on why that is/would cause this? Is this 'by design' for a setup with domain limits turned on? It's a poor design that requires vdelivermail to traverse the entire domain to determine whether it's over quota or not. Ah. I see, thanks Tom. -- Tom Collins - [EMAIL PROTECTED] QmailAdmin: http://qmailadmin.sf.net/ Vpopmail: http://vpopmail.sf.net/ Info on the Sniffter hand-held Network Tester: http://sniffter.com/ -- - Nick Bright Terraworld, Inc http://home.terraworld.net | 888-332-1616
Re: [vchkpw] Vpopmail 5.4.5 released
Hi, I see. You said, in your previous message: The code in vpopmail was first trying to connect to the server for a given database. If that was failing, it would try the server only and if that succeeded, it was considering that the server was fine but that the DB was not created. So, wouldnt it be safer to consider the second try, if it succeeds? Sorry, I dont understand why consider that the database was not created only because it took 2 tries to connect to the database. The way the program before patch was working was if(openDB( Host, Database) != OK) { if(openDB(Host) == OK) { create database } } After the patch it is if(openDB(Host) != OK) { return Can not connect } if(useDB(Database) != OK) { create database } A trivial patch really. In the pre-patch case, if the first openDB fails, it could be because the DB is not available...And it goes downhill from there Best Regards, François
Re: [vchkpw] SATA NAS for vpop cluster
On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 02:29:55PM -0700, Clayton Weise wrote: We use netapps (www.netapp.com) and it works great. One of the big things that made me move towards the netapp in place of many of the other NAS units out there was the fact that it runs a nix based OS. Most of the ones, say.. Dell for example just run a stripped down version of windows with file sharing for unix. It doesn't give you the ability to make any tweaks to the nfs server. We've been using the netapps for about 6 months now and it's been awesome. A client that hosts in our datacenter turned us on to the netapps nas units. He's been using them for I think about 2 years now and swears by them. Well, I have been using NetApp systems since 1997. They are absolutely wonderful systems. BUT They do not run any type of UNIX system, they run something called Data OnTap, current revision is 6.5. There are many models available. My old employer still has a F210 in production, this system is a Pentium 75 with 128MB of RAM using non-Ultra wide SCSI. It houses the RCS based configurations for the whole ISP. My old employer has a F720 in production for UNIX home directories and commercial webhosting data space. My old employer has a F720 in production for UNIX home directories and CIFS shares for the staff. My old employer has a F760 in production for UNIX home directories for the storage of mail in Maildir format, using Courier-IMAP for IMAP and POP3 access, Postfix as MTA/LDA. One small area is handled by vpopmail but that area is being phased out because of the qmail requirements. 30K mailboxes, 6000+ DSL accounts, many hundreds of T1s and colo customers - the NetApp systems ROCK for storage of critical data. But it doesn't run any kind of UNIX :) Oh, and good NetApp systems use Fibre-Channel drives, there are some newer systems that *look* like they might be ATA based, but I haven't played with them. Their near-storage systems (R series) is ATA based, but is not a general fileserver. Looking for cheaper than NetApp? http://www.winsys.com/products/flata.php Then use your favorite of UNIX systems (FreeBSD preferred by me) to be your NFS server OS of choice. Simple. Mostly cheap. Tell them I sent you. -- Mike Horwath, reachable via [EMAIL PROTECTED]