Re: [Vo]:A little more positive article on Cold Fusion from Gibbs
Thanks Abd for that clear explanation, As usual you are very strict with the required level of proof. I have gathered some data that I think valid, but please all here correct me if I'm wrong. As far as i know, NiH heat anomaly was known sine 89 with some ignored experience by Piantelli. in 93 I have been reading among the thousands of abstracts on CF, few results about NiH , yet like everybody of that time I took them as minors... about He4/Heat correlation, the story of the Report41 of ENEA is instructive. It have been rejected, while clearly superior in quality to many papers accepted by Science, and by the 41one review it have been proposed to (is it really 41? look like a joke) (see that topic http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=54t=451 ) about the condition to trigger LENR in PdD experiments, the most complete paper seems to be that report of ENEA at ICCF15 : (see http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=54t=674 ) ENEA have a strange story about CF, and the report: hystory of CF at ENEA that you can find in the same forum can show you why Italy is well represented in CF. to understand the sociology/psychiatry of LENR you should looks at the story of gas permeation experiments started by NASA GRC, then tsighua uni+infinicon, then Biberian, the Nasa GRC again... see http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=48t=474 the way that NASA GRC claim discretely that they validated heat anomaly without doubt in 89, is strange since their report just prove they refuse to fund needed experiments to be sure... They lie, discretely, to look pioneer while they have been denier until Spawar get public. There is (only) one great reason to doubt about LENR being real, it is only that one cannot accept that on the whole planet, the greatest brains, reject LENR without even a question, while there is visibly so clear, validated, replicated, precise, intense, evidences... any trusting citizen will rationally assume that these evidences are faked, because we cannot accept so huge collective delusion. Don't tell me about the constraint of replication, since any scientist having learned history know that at the beginning of a new science, replication is hard... Don't talk me about impossibility, since any scientist knowing quantum physics in lattice, know that we can be surprised... All the mainstream excuse don't hold 5 minute facing an historian of science or a semiconductor physicist. BTW I've been trained to micro-electronics, and the few of QM and history I've learned make me easily accept LENR as not breaking any physics law. It is shocking how the critics repeat stupid claim (like thermodynamic law broken, coulomb barrier, reliability...) at that level of competence, while any student should be fired of PhD course for such a bad excuse. The case of intelligent rebuttal of LENR , not using those stupid excuses are rare... If you read the appendix patterns of denial by Roland Benabou, and his key paper Groupthink: collective delusion in organizations and market, the situation is less surprising. http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Groupthink%20IOM%207p%20paper.pdf 2012/10/25 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com Well, Mr. Gibbs, while I appreciate your reporting on Defkalion, you continue to confuse and conflate two separate issues. 1. The reality of cold fusion as a physical phenomenon. 2. The existence of practical applications. The kind of information you request below is entirely focused, in terms of what you want, on validated practical applications. At this point, those don't really exist, and it's a matter of speculation and whom to trust as to whether anything is coming soon. But the reality of cold fusion is not in question any more, not in the scientific journals, at least. There is still a lot of held opinion out there, but it hasn't been seen in the journals for almost a decade. The actual evidence that this was real was available with the publication of Miles' helium measurements by 1993, and with the confirmation of Miles' measurements after that. You wrote, in your article: Unfortunately it turned out that the Fleischmann and Pons experiment was not reliably reproducible. In the academic fracas that followed, both men’s reputations were ruined and the field was quickly relegated to the domain of “fringe” science along with perpetual motion, telekinesis, and anti-gravity. Reliably reproducible is not a requirement for scientific validation of a phenomenon. Some phenomena are difficult to reproduce, generally because there are unknown or difficult-to-control conditions. However, what Miles found and reported in 1993 was that, while the amount of heat produced in a series of cold fusion cells was not easily predicted, the cells produced helium proportionally to the heat measured. That was an astonishing result at the time, because helium was not expected to be the
RE: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
I recall an old BBC serial, A for Andromeda I think it might have been called, must be nearly 60 years ago. A long radio signal from Andromeda gives DNA sequences. Which the scientists cannot resist growing, with nearly catastrophic results for humans. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 October 2012 23:09 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney mix...@bigpond.com wrote: There's a nice little SciFi short story about this (sorry, can't remember title or author). The basic theme is that trade is in concepts rather than objects, since these are readily exchanged, and of value to many. Exactly. Concepts, and the templates for replicators. (Replicators are universal production machines that can make anything.) I doubt we will ever be able to communicate with an alien species enough for practical purposes, but if in the distant future people colonize other stars, I can well imagine a stream of data between the other stars and our solar system. It would include things such as: News gossip Scientific research Patents and intellectual property Replicator templates for everything from new machines and recent works of art, to new kinds of food, ready-to-eat meals, and possibly new species or important people. If another Einstein is born on Alpha centauri they may send us a copy of him. Novels, movies Pornography! It is a little difficult to imagine how we might pay for this kind of trade. How could this be a commercial transaction in any sense? Do you wire transfer money to people you can never have physical contact with you? I assume that a spaceship will take decades or centuries to reach even the closest star. What is the point of sending valuable physical objects or currency to someone's great-great grandchild? Would you fax them a check? How would they cash it, with what organization? Who would keep track of the balance, and why? Would you send them a barrel of currency? Why not send them one dollar in a replicator template and tell them to reproduce it. Actually, cash money will soon be rendered useless and ridiculous by replication machines here on earth. Within a few centuries we will be able to make perfect copies of currency, and probably diamonds or even gold coins, if we learn to transmute elements. I have heard that a good computer scanner and printer can already make a counterfeit dollar bill that fools a change machine or a MARTA ticket machine. Anyway, such trade will be useful for stars within ~30 light years. After that, the new technology will be old, and the news will be history. See chapter 10 of Profiles, Space, the Unconquerable Quote: [Interstellar] space can be mapped and crossed and occupied without definable limit; but it can never be conquered. When our race has reached its ultimate achievements, and the stars themselves are scattered no more widely than the seed of Adam, even then we shall still be like ants crawling on the face of the Earth. The ants have covered the world, but have they conquered it -- for what do their countless colonies know of it, or of each other? So it will be with us as we spread outward from Mother Earth, loosening the bonds of kinship and understand-ing, hearing faint and belated rumors at second -- or third -- or thousandth-hand of an ever-dwindling fraction of the entire human race. Though Earth will try to keep in touch with her children, in the end all the efforts of her archivists and historians will be defeated by time and distance, and the sheer bulk of material. For the number of distinct societies or nations, when our race is twice its present age, may be far greater than the total number of all the men who have ever lived up to the present time. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: BTW such a system will effectively have to wait at least until FTL communications are achieved. I'm with St. Albert on this. I doubt that FTL communication or travel is possible. Anyway, what I wrote is predicated on that assumption. Actual interstellar travel will be rare . . . Even the concept of barter is cloudy when there is physical contact between the parties. It is hard to imagine a television producer on Earth saying: I've had it with those people at Alpha centauri! We sent them five miniseries last year, and they sent us only one in return. We're not broadcasting anything more in their direction until they pay up. Even if the producer felt that way, the programs arriving on earth would have left Alpha centauri five years earlier, and there would be no way of knowing how much is in the pipeline. You cut back broadcasts from Earth and two years later, even before the people at Alpha centauri learn you are upset, you get 8 broadcasts from them. It would be impossible to coordinate or balance the books. That's with a star 5 light years away. The ones that are 20 years away, you get to make one business decision during your entire career, since it takes 40 years for them to respond to your new marketing program or your proposed new sales contract. Even 5 years would be ridiculously slow. In this part of the galaxy stars are no closer than ~5 LY. Really, the only way to work it is to throw the information at them for free, with no expected benefit or return on investment on your end. For intellectual property, they sure can't pay royalties. On the other hand, they can't undersell you or outsource your workforce. Not that there will be any human workers . . . A civilization capable of interstellar travel would surely have perfected robots enough to replace all human workers. Humans would make decisions only. Really, it is hard to know what humans would do with such advanced technology. Life may seem pointless, as Orwell pointed out in The Road to Wigan Pier. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
From Jeff: Up in the business sense. http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/rossi-leonardo-corp-will-not-be-the-same/ Scrolling down a bit is a new Oct 25 entry, allegedly from Rossi: This is what will happen next week: The E-CAT is going to be the US election Game Changer. Rossi will join Obama in a big press conference declaring the end of oil dependence era and a new energy technology birth which will save our world In Rossi's dreams. or else... Obama! Tread very carefully here! Said differently: Fasten your seat belts. We're in for a bumpy ride. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
Maybe they should research how Europe traded with Asia before the telegraph. 2012/10/25 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I've had it with those people at Alpha centauri! We sent them five miniseries last year, and they sent us only one in return. We're not broadcasting anything more in their direction until they pay up. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
I meant to say: Even the concept of barter is cloudy when there is *NO* physical contact between the parties. Or when it is delayed by many human generations. I am assuming the human lifetime is not extended much beyond 80 to 100 years. I suppose there would be some physical contact. Hundreds of years after a colony is set up at Alpha centauri, there might be new groups people on Earth who want to go there, perhaps because they like the culture. They might set out on a 80-year trip, in suspended animation, or in an arc where their grandchildren arrive. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
Oops! Just to be clear on this point, Rossi did NOT say that. He did NOT say he has a planned press conference with Obama. That was pure speculation. I should have read the statement more mroe clearly. My apologies. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they should research how Europe traded with Asia before the telegraph. Exactly! That was a similar situation in the 17th and early 18th century, where trade took a year or two for anything to happen. The European trade with Japan was awkward to conduct. Very profitable, but awkward. By the late 18th can 19th centuries ships were much faster and safer. In the 16th century there was a kind of reverse life-insurance offered to people going to Asia and the Americas. I recall a reference to it in one of Shakespeare's plays. You pay some amount to a broker. If you manage to return within 10 years, the broker pays you back far more than you paid in. The expectation was that you would not return. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:24 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Oops! Just to be clear on this point, Rossi did NOT say that. He did NOT say he has a planned press conference with Obama. That was pure speculation. I should have read the statement more mroe clearly. Reading further: Except that he will join Romney. Don’t you remember… “Dear Dr Rossi, I am reading some of Ayn Rand’s works and now I think I better understand your philosophy. Could I be right? Best regards, Antonella Andrea Rossi January 23rd, 2012 at 10:00 AM Dear Antonella: Could be. In “Addio Kira” the individuals are seen as bearers of a specific light from God that cannot melt in a system but has the duty to give a specific contribution to the system. In her is evident the reaction to the massification demanded from the bolscevism, anyway I share that phylosophy, in a certain sense, yes. Warm regards, A.R.” So Rossi is an Objectivist.
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
Terry sez: ... So Rossi is an Objectivist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29 Hmmm. This is going to take a while for me to read up on. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:38 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Terry sez: ... So Rossi is an Objectivist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29 Hmmm. This is going to take a while for me to read up on. ;-) His specific reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_Living
Re: [Vo]:A little more positive article on Cold Fusion from Gibbs
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Well, Mr. Gibbs, while I appreciate your reporting on Defkalion, you continue to confuse and conflate two separate issues. 1. The reality of cold fusion as a physical phenomenon. 2. The existence of practical applications. Exactly. Reliably reproducible is not a requirement for scientific validation of a phenomenon. That is true. It is important. It is often overlooked by skeptics, who should know better. Beaudette pointed to the example of cloning mammals which used to work 0.1% of the time, yet no one doubted that mammals can be cloned. However, the reality of cold fusion does not equal practical application. The effect has been extremely difficult to control. Exactly. And as I keep saying, *if* the problem of control is solved, everything else will soon follow. Granted, that's a big if. There is no telling whether it will be solved, or when. That mainly depends on funding, and there has not been any funding for 15 years. There is a little now. Without sustained funding, the problem of control may never be solved. Cold fusion might remain a laboratory curiosity for hundreds of years. It might well be forgotten. Failure is always an option. I think that with control, commercialization is a sure thing, because we know for sure the reaction can produce enough heat and power density to melt ceramic proton conductors (for example). I think Abd disagrees with me about that. I think that Rossi did actually demonstrate 16 kW reactions in January 2011. I think fraud is so unlikely it is not worth worrying about. However, he did not seem to have the reaction under control. It seems the reactor came close to catastrophic overheating, with a surge from 16 kW to some much higher value. I have no idea whether he now has better control or not. It must be emphasized that a reactor which produces 16 kW for a while and then suddenly begins producing over 100 kW has absolutely NO COMMERCIAL VALUE. It is terribly dangerous! It could easily kill someone. As a demonstration, it has no more value than a 100 W reactor would have. You would have to be crazy to begin mass producing 16 kW reactors that sometimes go out of control and begin producing 100 kW or more. - Jed
[Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
I trust Rossi more than Obama as he appears to have achieved some measurable positive results in less than 4 years :) On Thursday, October 25, 2012, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: Oops! Just to be clear on this point, Rossi did NOT say that. He did NOT say he has a planned press conference with Obama. That was pure speculation. I should have read the statement more mroe clearly. My apologies. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:A little more positive article on Cold Fusion from Gibbs
Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: As far as i know, NiH heat anomaly was known sine 89 with some ignored experience by Piantelli. in 93 I have been reading among the thousands of abstracts on CF, few results about NiH , yet like everybody of that time I took them as minors... It was not ignored. Many people made sincere, sustained efforts to replicate Ni-H. Most of them failed. A few succeed in producing minor effects, close to the noise. These might have been experimental error. The consensus was that power density was inherently low for some unknown reason. Pd-D continued to look like a better research tool. The original Mills/Thermacore paper shows something like 50 W coming from a tremendous mass of Ni, enough to fill a large garbage can. People were unable to replicate Piantelli. When Rossi applied the Arata nano-particle technique to Ni, he succeeded in producing much higher power density. That was a game changer as they say in politics. Rossi deserves a great deal of credit for that. He made one of the most important contributions to the field. It may seem like a small step, applying Arata's idea to another material, but it is actually a giant leap because: 1. It is lot harder to accomplish than it sounds. I can summarize it in a single sentence, apply the Arata technique to nickel but that describes years of effort. 2. There must be thousand of permutations and combinations of techniques that might be tried, and that seem promising. We could have hundreds of different research groups spending a billion dollars a year trying them out, one after the other. Rossi somehow knew which one to try. He ignored all the other potential variations and went right to one that turned out to be very promising. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
An unequivocal acceptance of cold fusion by the establishment (say, GE comes out in full support of Rossi) next week would more likely inure to the benefit of Romney than Obama given the vicious role government has played in opposing cold fusion, Romney's statemet in support of cold fusion research (however ignorant it was of the definition of cold fusion) and Obama's manifest idiocy in picking winners in the energy field. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:24 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Oops! Just to be clear on this point, Rossi did NOT say that. He did NOT say he has a planned press conference with Obama. That was pure speculation. I should have read the statement more mroe clearly. My apologies. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:A little more positive article on Cold Fusion from Gibbs
On 2012-10-25 17:05, Jed Rothwell wrote: 1. It is lot harder to accomplish than it sounds. I can summarize it in a single sentence, apply the Arata technique to nickel but that describes years of effort. This might sound like a naive question, but isn't the Arata technique documented? And if it isn't, why it isn't? As long as recipes that work remain secret or purposely badly described, people will have to reinvent the wheel each time, resulting in delays of the scientific acceptance of the effect and the technology to the market. Cheers, S.A.
[Vo]:Hypothetical 'quantum harmonic oscillator' not so hypothetical
FYI: http://phys.org/news/2012-10-neutron-unprecedented-quantum-oscillations.html #nwlt NOTE that the quantum in this case is 50meV (small 'm'). -Mark Iverson - now to quote excerpts from the article -- Researchers at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory have found that nitrogen atoms in the compound uranium nitride exhibit unexpected, distinct vibrations that form a nearly ideal realization of a physics textbook model known as the isotropic quantum harmonic oscillator. In the experiment on the uranium nitride crystal-with each of the light nitrogen atoms centered in a cage of heavier uranium atoms-neutron scattering at ORNL's Spallation Neutron Source (SNS) revealed an unexpected series of distinct and evenly spaced oscillations: The nitrogen atom vibrates like a molecular-level ball on a spring. Students of physics are familiar with this idealized quantum 'mass on a spring,' but it is very unexpected to find such a precise literal version of this theoretical model in a real experiment, said Steve Nagler, director of ORNL's Quantum Condensed Matter Division of the Neutron Sciences Directorate and a co-author on the paper, published in the journal Nature Communications. The new data, obtained using SNS's wide angular-range chopper spectrometer (ARCS) and fine-resolution Fermi chopper spectrometer (SEQUOIA) instruments, revealed up to 10 equally spaced energy levels [quantized in 50 meV lumps] corresponding to oscillations of individual nitrogen atoms in different quantum states. The team was astonished to find this series of high-energy vibrational modes in uranium nitride-particularly in an experiment that originally set out to investigate magnetism in the material. We learn about the quantum harmonic oscillator in undergraduate physics courses, but you never believe you will find such a good example in nature, said Adam Aczel, a postdoctoral fellow within the Quantum Condensed Matter Division and lead author on the paper.
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
My own guess is that this comment will end up being another overwhelming promise followed by another underwhelming delivery. It just seems to be a pattern common to Mr. Rossi. I hope I'm wrong. Again, I'm trying to play the dispassionate commentator here. I have no position on whether he has anything, whether there will be commercial significance, etc. There just isn't enough information. I don't know is an excellent answer to most questions, especially when it's true. Jeff On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:12 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: An unequivocal acceptance of cold fusion by the establishment (say, GE comes out in full support of Rossi) next week would more likely inure to the benefit of Romney than Obama given the vicious role government has played in opposing cold fusion, Romney's statemet in support of cold fusion research (however ignorant it was of the definition of cold fusion) and Obama's manifest idiocy in picking winners in the energy field. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:24 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Oops! Just to be clear on this point, Rossi did NOT say that. He did NOT say he has a planned press conference with Obama. That was pure speculation. I should have read the statement more mroe clearly. My apologies. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Aliens Favour Romney
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they should research how Europe traded with Asia before the telegraph. Some of the trading occurred indirectly through intermediaries. Harry 2012/10/25 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I've had it with those people at Alpha centauri! We sent them five miniseries last year, and they sent us only one in return. We're not broadcasting anything more in their direction until they pay up. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
Good Luck with the new experiments David. I think you will see some interesting effects. Regarding the sparks and light flashes, I ran across a paper that describes an spark effect, but it was seen in the 100-140Volt range. Horace Heffner describes it in his paper; http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf It could be that the local electric potential is large enough that the sparkle effect happens. Anyway, with the AC, do try the DC pre-charging. If there is a true LENR effect, I would think this is one of the better ways of see it.The pre-charging might allow coating of the cupronickel with B2O3 which Mile's hints was one method of rapid LENR in his youtube video. In addition, as Storm's has suggested, you might pre-fill the lattice dislocations. Once the AC begins, hopefully you will see a robust heating effect. With AC, you should see the Na2[B4O5(OH)4] oscillating back and forth, and swarms of H+ push through the Cu-Ni B4O5(OH)4 surface. I found some old notes, that indicated in DC, the green salts could be CuB2O3 and darker salts as NiB2O3. See if you can spot a glow too. Maybe it's Cherenkov radiation. Anyway, Have fun. It's been interesting to see how much more bizarre this little experiment gets. Chuck On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is time for a change in my experimentation. I spent a lot of time and energy with the sodium carbonate electrolyte and DC current without being able to report any proven excess power. There is evidence that the Borax electrolyte might lead to more definitive results so that is what I began using again today. Earlier I started using Borax after finding that table salt was a terribly corrosive material. I used the Borax for several days as it slowly ate away at my positively connected electrodes before I decided to go to the sodium carbonate. I stuck with the sodium carbonate for so long since I was mainly concerned about the hydrogen loading of the cathode which should have been similar with either electrolyte. Today, I rewound a transformer to yield 21 volts AC RMS. This is an ideal way to drive the system with AC since the transformer automatically isolates it from the AC mains and leads to a safe experiment. I am using 21 volts because that is all I obtained with the transformer core with which I started when I placed as many turns as possible (36) in the secondary slot with the wire size that was convenient. I was worried that this might not be enough voltage, but found that I could still drive the cell with between 1 and 2 amps RMS depending upon the spacing between the electrodes. The joule losses within the transformer are quite low and it is in no danger of overheating. The cell is receiving around 40 watts of power which is within reason. I am using a Pyrex dish for my cell, the same one that I have been using for several days. It is open and wide so the cell temperature is fairly low due to large heat loss. I am curious as to whether or not I get the strange sparks that seemed so prevalent with my earlier DC system. I have noticed that there is a lot less gas being released at the electrodes due to the AC drive current. The AC drive current does not appear to cause the green deposits that were so evident with the DC current. I initially allowed the green mess to be plated upon one of the test nickels attached to the positive DC supply connection. After a period of time the green material was shaken off and a dark deposit replaced it as the current increased. I do not know what material is plating that nickel, but it allows for good conductivity. I placed my old reliable nickel on the other electrode for the AC testing. The poor nickel has been undergoing electrolysis for many days, has been heated red hot and quenched 5 times, has been soaked in a mild acid for a couple of days, and then sanded to roughen its surface. I am not sure what else I can do to make it more miserable! Dave
RE: [Vo]:Hypothetical 'quantum harmonic oscillator' not so hypothetical
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint FYI: http://phys.org/news/2012-10-neutron-unprecedented-quantum-oscillations.html #nwlt NOTE that the quantum in this case is 50meV (small 'm'). Even so, if it were 50meV of actual gain per atom, which it isn't, then a mole of the nitrogen oscillations gives one a pretty impressive coherent wiggle. Not to mention. being coherent, the radiation could be useful for certain things - and it would not be a surprise if this will be or has been considered for . well . cough, cough . maybe an n-ray laser :-) Talk about making a mountain out of molehill..
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
From Jeff: My own guess is that this comment will end up being another overwhelming promise followed by another underwhelming delivery. It just seems to be a pattern common to Mr. Rossi. I hope I'm wrong. That does seem to be Rossi's prior track record - to constantly titillate his audience. I put a lot of credence in Vort speculation that states the fact that the principal LENR problem is a lack of adequate control over the reaction. Without proper controls commercialization will be impossible. Likewise, it would seem that many skeptics have now redrawn the line in the sand. They now seem to conveniently focus their criticisms on claiming the fact that the LENR reaction is not commercially practical. Well, of course it isn't commercially practical, in its present incarnations. Neither were the first integrated circuits: http://www.cedmagic.com/history/integrated-circuit-1958.html ...such as shown here next developer Jack Kilby. If government support, (such as from the DoD's own self-interest objectives) hadn't stepped in during the infancy phase of this technology's development and supported it generously we would not be enjoying the fruits of their own self-interests. I hope that 20 or 30 years from now something similar may be said about the history of LENR technology... with hopefully less emphasis on the role DoD might initially play. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Hypothetical 'quantum harmonic oscillator' not so hypothetical
Jones: Don't think its 50meV/atom, but the same atom excited to different energy levels. RE: of mtns and molehills. .and a butterfly's flapping in California causes a monsoon in India. From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:03 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Hypothetical 'quantum harmonic oscillator' not so hypothetical From: MarkI-ZeroPoint FYI: http://phys.org/news/2012-10-neutron-unprecedented-quantum-oscillations.html #nwlt NOTE that the quantum in this case is 50meV (small 'm'). Even so, if it were 50meV of actual gain per atom, which it isn't, then a mole of the nitrogen oscillations gives one a pretty impressive coherent wiggle. Not to mention. being coherent, the radiation could be useful for certain things - and it would not be a surprise if this will be or has been considered for . well . cough, cough . maybe an n-ray laser J Talk about making a mountain out of molehill..
[Vo]:University of Missouri Acquires Energetics LENR Resources
University of Missouri Acquires Energetics LENR Resources http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/10/24/university-of-missouri-acquires-energetics-lenr/ Oct. 24, 2012 By Steven B. Krivit New Jersey-based Energetics Technologies LLC and its founders appear to be out of the low-energy nuclear reaction research business. Their assets are now owned or licensed by the University of Missouri. Two of the senior Energetics scientists, plus two more-recently hired Energetics researchers, are continuing LENR research as employees of the University of Missouri. [ rest behind paywall ] (lenr.qumbu.com -- analyzing the Rossi/Focardi eCat -- and the defkalion hyperion -- Hi, google!)
Re: [Vo]:A little more positive article on Cold Fusion from Gibbs
Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: This might sound like a naive question, but isn't the Arata technique documented? And if it isn't, why it isn't? First, Arata's technique is documented, but not well according to some people. He tends to keep secrets. Second, when I said Rossi applied the technique, I meant that loosely. Arata was working with Pd nanoparticles loaded with deuterium gas. He first used pure Pd, and later various mixtures. Rossi is working with Ni loaded with H. Rossi says he added two secret ingredients to the metal. I meant that Rossi decided to try gas loading of nanoparticles. The actual details of the two systems are quite different. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
At 09:05 AM 10/25/2012, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: That does seem to be Rossi's prior track record - to constantly titillate his audience. Many of his commercial hints have failed to materialize, or have fizzled (big US company etc ..) -- but most of his technical hints have materialized in one form or another.
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
Thanks Chuck, the experimentation has been going on now for a couple of days and I did notice unusual behavior that I was not expecting. I performed a small experiment using AC with new nickels that had not been undergoing electrolysis at any time and saw that they did not show any of the green coating that was so evident with DC. Instead, there was a jet black coating being formed upon the nickels. Then, I applied DC to my cell and a green coating began to form over top of the previous black coating upon the nickel connected to the positive terminal. I allowed this process to continue for a few hours and then scraped off the net coating to get a orange copperish looking finish where the old coatings were. This finish has a rough appearance. So far the bottom line is that AC drive behaves far differently than DC drive in this system. I can definitely see boiling electrolyte temperatures between the two nickels with AC drive while far fewer bubbles of gas are released by the active mechanisms as compared to DC drive. With AC, the effective resistance of the combination remains much lower than with DC current. The high resistance appears to correspond with the deposition of the green coating that follows DC current flow. My present transformer will not allow me to achieve the 100-140 volt drive levels so that would have to be achieved by some other means. I have a few ideas regarding the use of an adjustable transformer, but that would be difficult to handle. I do not feel comfortable with direct connection by metallic path to the AC mains. It would be too easy to become electrocuted with one careless maneuver. My AC RMS voltage is 21 volts for these tests so the resistance must remain less than 10 ohms between the terminals if I am to drive the system with 2 amps of current. I am able to achieve this goal without too much difficulty when the green coating is absent. I need to perform more experimentation with this combination. The salts you suspect are interesting. Do you suspect that the normal oxides of the nickel and copper are suppressed? Also, I am not aware of any visual change to the surface of the nickel if hydrogen has entered. Would anyone expect a color change or other indication when this happens? I would love to see the glow that Horace mentions and perhaps that day will come when I figure a good way to drive the cell in a safe manner. It is apparent that I will need to pre-charge the nickels before applying the full voltage unless I want to melt my experiment. If I used my typical resistance of 10 ohms and set the input AC to 100 volts RMS, I would generate 1000 watts of power at a current of 10 amps. I wonder if the sparks I saw with the sodium carbonate were somehow related to the glow mentioned by Horace. My results were correlated with the open circuit voltage rising toward 50 volts as it attempted to maintain the current at a constant level. The sparks suggest to me some form of burning mechanism and I got a large dose of the vapor by accident once when watching the phenomena too closely. It was a strong odor that I hope is not carcinogenic. The smoke I breathed was definitely not water vapor. Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. Dave P.S. AC in my posting is standard line frequency in the US which is 60 hertz. -Original Message- From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started Good Luck with the new experiments David. I think you will see some interesting effects. Regarding the sparks and light flashes, I ran across a paper that describes an spark effect, but it was seen in the 100-140Volt range. Horace Heffner describes it in his paper; http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GlowExper.pdf It could be that the local electric potential is large enough that the sparkle effect happens. Anyway, with the AC, do try the DC pre-charging. If there is a true LENR effect, I would think this is one of the better ways of see it.The pre-charging might allow coating of the cupronickel with B2O3 which Mile's hints was one method of rapid LENR in his youtube video. In addition, as Storm's has suggested, you might pre-fill the lattice dislocations. Once the AC begins, hopefully you will see a robust heating effect. With AC, you should see the Na2[B4O5(OH)4] oscillating back and forth, and swarms of H+ push through the Cu-Ni B4O5(OH)4 surface. I found some old notes, that indicated in DC, the green salts could be CuB2O3 and darker salts as NiB2O3. See if you can spot a glow too. Maybe it's Cherenkov radiation. Anyway, Have fun. It's been interesting
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
From Alan: That does seem to be Rossi's prior track record - to constantly titillate his audience. Many of his commercial hints have failed to materialize, or have fizzled (big US company etc ..) -- but most of his technical hints have materialized in one form or another. Here's a perfect example of Rossi-speak when it comes to a long list of commercially-based antics: http://pesn.com/2012/01/05/9601997_E-Cat_Weekly_January5/ E-Cat Weekly -- January 5, 2012 - This past week saw at least 80 stories on the web, 4 from mainstream news, regarding Andrea Rossi's E-Cat powered by LENR or cold fusion. The hottest theme was Rossi's assertion that he is in discussion with Home Depot to distribute 1 million home heat units this Autumn for less than $2,000 USD. Reality will probably dictate a longer time-line. (PESN; January 5, 2012) Well, it's now Autumn... and, oh, by the way, our water heater sprung a leak over the weekend. Time to replace the old monster. Tonight I'm headed for Sears to price another natural gas water heater, particularly since I'm aware of no Rossi-LENR models. ;-) It's no wonder skeptics and debunkers consider Rossi to be nothing but a comical charlatan. For those who find the above skeptical stance a bit too over-simplified for the reality of the situation, Rossi gives them (myself included) the impression that he has uncovered a little-understood LENR heat-generating process. He had steadfastly attempted to personally capitalize on his discovery, but all on his own recognizance. The problem, as many Vorts see it, is that Rossi has repeatedly shown what appears to be a maniacal (almost comical) unwillingness to let others into his protective sphere of influence, individuals who long ago could have assisted him in figuring out how to better control the mysterious LENR reactions in a safe and reliable manner. I gather Rossi has repeatedly ended up frustrating the hell out of many well-intentioned individuals, organizations and companies who sincerely wanted to help out - if not to share a little in a slice of the pie. Rossi seems to want the pie all for himself, but may end up with most of it on his face. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it's now Autumn... and, oh, by the way, our water heater sprung a leak over the weekend. Time to replace the old monster. Be sure you check the water pressure regulator. I did not do that last time and new heater soon sprang a leak. This time I had a plumber do everything right. It's no wonder skeptics and debunkers consider Rossi to be nothing but a comical charlatan. Yup. But I agree with Alan Fletcher that Rossi does tend to come through on his technical hints. His track record is remarkably good. His flamboyant personality gets in the way and we fail to notice this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
Jed sez: ... ...I agree with Alan Fletcher that Rossi does tend to come through on his technical hints. His track record is remarkably good. His flamboyant personality gets in the way and we fail to notice this. Rossi is what what Rossi does. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
On 10/25/2012 03:33 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Yup. But I agree with Alan Fletcher that Rossi does tend to come through on his technical hints. His track record is remarkably good. His flamboyant personality gets in the way and we fail to notice this. He's also really good at sticking to a schedule, which is a trait that most RD companies lack. He told us back in January, 2011, that he would build a 1 mw plant for delivery in October, and he stuck to it. This tells me that he has experience managing large projects and sticking to a tight schedule and budget. This demonstrates competence and is not a trait in con artists. It's one of the more credible parts of his personality. Craig
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
Dear Dave, You wrote: Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. I think you can get this with the oxidization process with using a nickel as the anode with DC for a couple of hours to form the green oxidized copper. The green oxidized copper can then be burned off with a torch. My approach has been to first use the nicked as an anode for 1 to 2 hours. Burn off the oxidized copper with a torch. Then slow treat with hydrogen as the cathode and low current DC for a few days. Then switch to AC. With respect to the B2O3, I've found that most of this will burn off. But I have some that simply melted into a transparent clear blob adhering to some of the surfaces of the nickels. Take care, Jack On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Thanks Chuck, the experimentation has been going on now for a couple of days and I did notice unusual behavior that I was not expecting. I performed a small experiment using AC with new nickels that had not been undergoing electrolysis at any time and saw that they did not show any of the green coating that was so evident with DC. Instead, there was a jet black coating being formed upon the nickels. Then, I applied DC to my cell and a green coating began to form over top of the previous black coating upon the nickel connected to the positive terminal. I allowed this process to continue for a few hours and then scraped off the net coating to get a orange copperish looking finish where the old coatings were. This finish has a rough appearance. So far the bottom line is that AC drive behaves far differently than DC drive in this system. I can definitely see boiling electrolyte temperatures between the two nickels with AC drive while far fewer bubbles of gas are released by the active mechanisms as compared to DC drive. With AC, the effective resistance of the combination remains much lower than with DC current. The high resistance appears to correspond with the deposition of the green coating that follows DC current flow. My present transformer will not allow me to achieve the 100-140 volt drive levels so that would have to be achieved by some other means. I have a few ideas regarding the use of an adjustable transformer, but that would be difficult to handle. I do not feel comfortable with direct connection by metallic path to the AC mains. It would be too easy to become electrocuted with one careless maneuver. My AC RMS voltage is 21 volts for these tests so the resistance must remain less than 10 ohms between the terminals if I am to drive the system with 2 amps of current. I am able to achieve this goal without too much difficulty when the green coating is absent. I need to perform more experimentation with this combination. The salts you suspect are interesting. Do you suspect that the normal oxides of the nickel and copper are suppressed? Also, I am not aware of any visual change to the surface of the nickel if hydrogen has entered. Would anyone expect a color change or other indication when this happens? I would love to see the glow that Horace mentions and perhaps that day will come when I figure a good way to drive the cell in a safe manner. It is apparent that I will need to pre-charge the nickels before applying the full voltage unless I want to melt my experiment. If I used my typical resistance of 10 ohms and set the input AC to 100 volts RMS, I would generate 1000 watts of power at a current of 10 amps. I wonder if the sparks I saw with the sodium carbonate were somehow related to the glow mentioned by Horace. My results were correlated with the open circuit voltage rising toward 50 volts as it attempted to maintain the current at a constant level. The sparks suggest to me some form of burning mechanism and I got a large dose of the vapor by accident once when watching the phenomena too closely. It was a strong odor that I hope is not carcinogenic. The smoke I breathed was definitely not water vapor. Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. Dave P.S. AC in my posting is standard line frequency in the US which is 60 hertz. -Original Message- From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started Good Luck with the new experiments David. I think you will see some interesting effects. Regarding the sparks and light flashes, I ran across a paper that describes an spark effect, but it was
Re: [Vo]:Quantum Energy Converter
In reply to Ron Kita's message of Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:17:48 -0400: Hi, [snip] Greetings Vortex-L, I don t think that I saw the QEC posted here before: http://zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=3430 Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex IOW this is a form of diode, which as I have stated many times on this list, should be able to rectify thermal noise currents, converting them into DC, which is the electrical equivalent of absolute zero temperature. In short, a diode can act as a thermal sink close to absolute zero, and hence convert ambient thermal energy into DC electrical power. BTW a somewhat more mundane example is evaporation of water, where only the most energetic molecules have enough energy to break the hydrogen bonds that keep water liquid. Evaporation thus separates the hottest molecules from the rest, and is also a form of Maxwell Demon. Once the work of separation has been done, very little effort is required to remove those hot molecules from the proximity of the surface, so that they can't return to it. This results in the remaining liquid dropping in temperature. The effect is known as wind chill. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:New paper by Storms and Scanlan
Reference: Self-organized atomic nanowires of noble metals on Ge(001): Atomic structure and electronic properties http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=sfrm=1source=webcd=1cad=rjaved=0CB4QFjAAurl=http%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fabs%2F0906.4912ei=xrGIUJ6BNMa70AGz_4CQDQusg=AFQjCNEmf0XIH21PHz0C-1lohScap7TfjQsig2=mF3fV0COlK1H4yJ8qhoK8g New techniques in fabricating cracks (quasi-one-dimensional (1D) structures) in noble metals (Palladium might work) have been achieved that may make scientific analysis more tractable in the area of radiation production through hydrogen loading in a palladium lattice. Atomic structures of quasi-one-dimensional (1D) character can be grown on semiconductor substrates by metal adsorption. Significant progress concerning study of their 1D character has been achieved recently by condensing noble metal atoms on the Ge(001) surface. In particular, Pt and Au yield high quality reconstructions with low defect densities. We reported on the self-organized growth and the long-range order achieved, and present data from scanning tunneling microscopy (STM) on the structural components. For Pt/Ge(001), we find hot substrate growth is the preferred method for self-organization. These atomic wires exhibit metallic conduction at room temperature, as documented by low-bias STM. For the recently discovered Au/Ge(001) nanowires, they now have developed a deposition technique that allows complete substrate coverage. The Au nanowires are extremely well separated spatially, exhibit a continuous 1D charge density, and are of solid metallic conductance. In this review we present structural details for both types of nanowires, and discuss similarities and differences. A perspective is given for their potential to host a one-dimensional electron system. The ability to condense different noble metal nanowires demonstrates how atomic control of the structure affects the electronic properties. In reducing the size to the single-atom scale, and specifically by constructing two-dimensional (2D) and even uasi-one-dimensional (1D) structures, the physics of the electronic charge carriers will change dramatically. In particular, one is used to a description of the electron states within the Fermi liquid picture. Also, one is familiar with treatments of phase transitions within the mean-field theory. The latter, e.g., is used successfully to describe the conventional superconducting ground state of metals within the BCS formalism. However, in turning to material systems that are essentially 1D in nature, there is indication that these scenarios do no longer apply. With nearly 1D properties, this newly fabricated nano-material lets us expect rather strong interactions of electrons and lattice, owing to a reduction of electrostatic screening. Specifically, the 1D nature of the electron system can be responsible for the occurrence of a charge density wave (CDW), implying a metal-insulator transition for the electron band concerned. This now offers us an opportunity to study unusual physics that results from the predicted breakdown of the Fermi liquid picture. The physics of charged particles: electrons and protons in low dimension topoligy is dramatically different from that encountered in conventional three-dimensional bulk metals, and solid state theory predicts exotic many-body scenarios. Most prominent for 1D systems is the emergence of the so-called Luttinger liquid, which results from a decoupling of the spin and charge degrees of freedom. In a friendly suggestion and in order to atone for my misreading of Ed Storms latest paper, Mr. Storms among other workers would be well served to build some of these palladium nanowires and load them with protons from ionized hydrogen. These lattice structures are well ordered; demonstrating high regularity which makes them an ideal target for analysis. In addition, this week, researchers have discovered that electrons flow in alternating directions and in parallel down within the ridges of this noble metal nanowire array and not on or in them. http://phys.org/news/2012-10-obstinate-electrons-assumptions-path.html Cheers: Axil On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Alan, if you look at the photograph, you see GM#1 on the apparatus, where it is clearly shown in the diagram (Fig. 5), and GM#2 is hanging by a wire off to the right , as clearly stated under the photograph. GM#2 never detects radiation from the sample but can detect radiation from GM#1 when it is activated. (Fig. 13) The GM used were the only ones available at the time. We never expected the mica to be activated. Now that we know this, we are doing what is obvious to everyone. However, as I clearly state, this is a progress report being published to alert people to the strange behavior. Ed On Oct 23, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 11:26 AM 10/23/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: I uploaded a version of this paper with some
Re: [Vo]:Mark Gibbs asks for recommended papers and experiments
At 11:36 AM 10/21/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: I don't have the time to review the huge amount of literature you people have already looked at ... I'm still willing to do some leg-work on this (I'm collecting links, and will order Ed Storms' book) -- but meanwhile, I suggest you look at ONE presentation from ICCF-17 (with rather impeccable credentials) : http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2012/ICCF17/papers/Dominguez-Anomalous-Results-Slides-ICCF17.pdf which I'll summarize as : a) Cold Fusion is REAL science (though the method is unexplained) b) They attempted and failed to disprove there is excess power c) LARGE excess power in 5% of experiments c) Excess power (MUCH GREATER THAN) stored chemical energy d) In one run they got a gain of ~40X (MORE than the 6 Rossi, or the 20 Defkalion is claiming) e) Potentially useful level of excess power!
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started -- Sodium + Epsom Salts explosion
Another warning on electrolysis and stuff http://www.iscmns.org/CMNS/JCMNS-Vol9.pdf p64 Lakshmanan During sodium metal dissolution in aqueous Epsom salts, it was accidentally discovered that a massive explosion occurs in 0.85 M Epsom solution on the completion of Na dissolution. ... However, at the end of Na dissolution, i.e., 30 s after Na addition, an intense and massive explosion occurred, accompanied with Na aerosol release and a shock wave as well as vaporization of Borosil glass beaker containing salt solution. The explosion attracted the attention of everyone in the building due to its high intensity, even people in rooms far from the one where the experiment was carried out. Molten glass needles flew all around, making holes too small to be seen with the naked eye in two plastic water bottles at two different locations about 2 m from the explosion. I was standing 45 m from the cell when it exploded. The needles scratched my hand. Borosil glass vaporizes at temperatures 1000°C. This fact indicates that a very high temperature has indeed been reached in this experiment. The timing of the explosion (2025 s after Na addition) is prima facie evidence that hydrogen somehow got trapped in the solution. A normal hydrogen explosion occurs within 510 s after Na addition in dilute salt solutions, and the intensity of a normal explosion is not sufficient to vaporize the glass beaker.
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Rossi says something is up at Leonardo
Seeing that we have this thread going : Joseph Fine October 25th, 2012 at 1:27 PM Andrea Rossi, You said you will soon provide information about the new 1 MW Hot Cat. I have not yet made a volume estimate of the Hot-Cat (1 MW). But I think the 1 MW Hot Cat will have 90 to 100 modules. Some one commented on E-Cat World that Apple might buy Leonardo Corporation and rename the E-Cat the I-Cat. Please say it isnt so! Joseph Andrea Rossi October 25th, 2012 at 2:20 PM Dear Dr Joseph Fine: The Hot Cat will have 72 modules and the whole generator will stay in 1 cubic meter of volume. I suppose. Very important progree is in course. About what might be: if I might have 6 balls, I could be a flipper. Warmest Regards Adrian Monk October 25th, 2012 at 7:48 AM Some comments on E-Catworld are saying (as a joke) that you will light up Red Square or something similar in US on December 21 2012. That is a joke to lower the expectation bar for your news next week. So if it is not that (is it? ) what can we expect next week in terms of communication to us, fans? A small press release in JONP, a big public press release or no press release at all because you cannot share the news being too confidential? Andrea Rossi October 25th, 2012 at 2:24 PM Dear Adrian Monk: Next week we will have no particular communications to make. We are working very hard here, in the USA. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started -- Sodium + Epsom Salts explosion
Nice reference Alan, Yes, I also encourage the basement experimentalist to be-careful with these experiments. The boranes (ie. B_x H_y) can be toxic, and even explosive. B2H4 is rocket fuel. Throw sodium in the mix, hydrogen and oxygen, Its like lighting a match. Chemically. I ran these types of experiments for a couple of years and never had any problems.That is the way I would treat it. It's not something you would do in you high school chemistry class, but don't be concerned if a high-school-er does it (at low voltage!). Certainly have a Geiger counter handy for the heck of it. Storms has it right. A long period of Geiger counter readings should expose the phenomena. What looks like a slight rise or fall certainly could be a low level fusion signature. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Another warning on electrolysis and stuff http://www.iscmns.org/CMNS/JCMNS-Vol9.pdf p64 Lakshmanan During sodium metal dissolution in aqueous Epsom salts, it was accidentally discovered that a massive explosion occurs in 0.85 M Epsom solution on the completion of Na dissolution. ... However, at the end of Na dissolution, i.e., 30 s after Na addition, an intense and massive explosion occurred, accompanied with Na aerosol release and a shock wave as well as vaporization of Borosil glass beaker containing salt solution. The explosion attracted the attention of everyone in the building due to its high intensity, even people in rooms far from the one where the experiment was carried out. Molten glass needles flew all around, making holes too small to be seen with the naked eye in two plastic water bottles at two different locations about 2 m from the explosion. I was standing 4–5 m from the cell when it exploded. The needles scratched my hand. Borosil glass vaporizes at temperatures 1000°C. This fact indicates that a very high temperature has indeed been reached in this experiment. The timing of the explosion (20–25 s after Na addition) is prima facie evidence that hydrogen somehow got trapped in the solution. A normal hydrogen explosion occurs within 5–10 s after Na addition in dilute salt solutions, and the intensity of a normal explosion is not sufficient to vaporize the glass beaker.
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
Jack, that is just about right. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Dave, You wrote: Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. I think you can get this with the oxidization process with using a nickel as the anode with DC for a couple of hours to form the green oxidized copper. The green oxidized copper can then be burned off with a torch. My approach has been to first use the nicked as an anode for 1 to 2 hours. Burn off the oxidized copper with a torch. Then slow treat with hydrogen as the cathode and low current DC for a few days. Then switch to AC. With respect to the B2O3, I've found that most of this will burn off. But I have some that simply melted into a transparent clear blob adhering to some of the surfaces of the nickels. Take care, Jack On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: Thanks Chuck, the experimentation has been going on now for a couple of days and I did notice unusual behavior that I was not expecting. I performed a small experiment using AC with new nickels that had not been undergoing electrolysis at any time and saw that they did not show any of the green coating that was so evident with DC. Instead, there was a jet black coating being formed upon the nickels. Then, I applied DC to my cell and a green coating began to form over top of the previous black coating upon the nickel connected to the positive terminal. I allowed this process to continue for a few hours and then scraped off the net coating to get a orange copperish looking finish where the old coatings were. This finish has a rough appearance. So far the bottom line is that AC drive behaves far differently than DC drive in this system. I can definitely see boiling electrolyte temperatures between the two nickels with AC drive while far fewer bubbles of gas are released by the active mechanisms as compared to DC drive. With AC, the effective resistance of the combination remains much lower than with DC current. The high resistance appears to correspond with the deposition of the green coating that follows DC current flow. My present transformer will not allow me to achieve the 100-140 volt drive levels so that would have to be achieved by some other means. I have a few ideas regarding the use of an adjustable transformer, but that would be difficult to handle. I do not feel comfortable with direct connection by metallic path to the AC mains. It would be too easy to become electrocuted with one careless maneuver. My AC RMS voltage is 21 volts for these tests so the resistance must remain less than 10 ohms between the terminals if I am to drive the system with 2 amps of current. I am able to achieve this goal without too much difficulty when the green coating is absent. I need to perform more experimentation with this combination. The salts you suspect are interesting. Do you suspect that the normal oxides of the nickel and copper are suppressed? Also, I am not aware of any visual change to the surface of the nickel if hydrogen has entered. Would anyone expect a color change or other indication when this happens? I would love to see the glow that Horace mentions and perhaps that day will come when I figure a good way to drive the cell in a safe manner. It is apparent that I will need to pre-charge the nickels before applying the full voltage unless I want to melt my experiment. If I used my typical resistance of 10 ohms and set the input AC to 100 volts RMS, I would generate 1000 watts of power at a current of 10 amps. I wonder if the sparks I saw with the sodium carbonate were somehow related to the glow mentioned by Horace. My results were correlated with the open circuit voltage rising toward 50 volts as it attempted to maintain the current at a constant level. The sparks suggest to me some form of burning mechanism and I got a large dose of the vapor by accident once when watching the phenomena too closely. It was a strong odor that I hope is not carcinogenic. The smoke I breathed was definitely not water vapor. Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. Dave P.S. AC in my posting is standard line frequency in the US which is 60 hertz. -Original Message- From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started Good Luck with the new experiments David. I think you will see some interesting
[Vo]: Great Pyramid was a Hydrogen Resonator?
Good 12 minute clip http://youtu.be/Lb7SLnzb-R8 Stewart
Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
That appears like a pretty good process for the nickel. Jack, I will follow your procedure after I complete a couple of experiments. I tried something interesting today that I plan to investigate further. I acted like a manual switch for a couple of nickels where I reversed the DC current periodically to see how the coatings behaved. I let current flow until the resistance reached about 50 ohms in one direction and then reversed the current until the same value was seen in the other direction. This procedure was carried out for about 5 cycles. Initially, a green coating was deposited upon the positively connected nickel which was then flaked off by the reverse current. A significant amount of green material was deposited within my electrolyte due to the cyclic coating and flaking. The AC was then applied and I noticed that very little gas was escaping from the electrodes even though a current of 1 to 2 amps was flowing. The resistance remained low during the AC testing which is in process as I write. The electrolyte evaporated twice to a level that had to be replenish as typical. This post is a quick update. Dave -Original Message- From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started Jack, that is just about right. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Dave, You wrote: Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. I think you can get this with the oxidization process with using a nickel as the anode with DC for a couple of hours to form the green oxidized copper. The green oxidized copper can then be burned off with a torch. My approach has been to first use the nicked as an anode for 1 to 2 hours. Burn off the oxidized copper with a torch. Then slow treat with hydrogen as the cathode and low current DC for a few days. Then switch to AC. With respect to the B2O3, I've found that most of this will burn off. But I have some that simply melted into a transparent clear blob adhering to some of the surfaces of the nickels. Take care, Jack On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Thanks Chuck, the experimentation has been going on now for a couple of days and I did notice unusual behavior that I was not expecting. I performed a small experiment using AC with new nickels that had not been undergoing electrolysis at any time and saw that they did not show any of the green coating that was so evident with DC. Instead, there was a jet black coating being formed upon the nickels. Then, I applied DC to my cell and a green coating began to form over top of the previous black coating upon the nickel connected to the positive terminal. I allowed this process to continue for a few hours and then scraped off the net coating to get a orange copperish looking finish where the old coatings were. This finish has a rough appearance. So far the bottom line is that AC drive behaves far differently than DC drive in this system. I can definitely see boiling electrolyte temperatures between the two nickels with AC drive while far fewer bubbles of gas are released by the active mechanisms as compared to DC drive. With AC, the effective resistance of the combination remains much lower than with DC current. The high resistance appears to correspond with the deposition of the green coating that follows DC current flow. My present transformer will not allow me to achieve the 100-140 volt drive levels so that would have to be achieved by some other means. I have a few ideas regarding the use of an adjustable transformer, but that would be difficult to handle. I do not feel comfortable with direct connection by metallic path to the AC mains. It would be too easy to become electrocuted with one careless maneuver. My AC RMS voltage is 21 volts for these tests so the resistance must remain less than 10 ohms between the terminals if I am to drive the system with 2 amps of current. I am able to achieve this goal without too much difficulty when the green coating is absent. I need to perform more experimentation with this combination. The salts you suspect are interesting. Do you suspect that the normal oxides of the nickel and copper are suppressed? Also, I am not aware of any visual change to the surface of the nickel if hydrogen has entered. Would anyone expect a color change or other indication when this happens? I would love to see the glow that Horace mentions and perhaps that day will come when I figure a good way to drive the cell in a safe manner. It is apparent that I will need to pre-charge the nickels before applying the full
RE: [Vo]:New Experiment Started
Dave, Sorry if I missed it, but are you using tap water, or distilled/deionized water? -mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:57 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started That appears like a pretty good process for the nickel. Jack, I will follow your procedure after I complete a couple of experiments. I tried something interesting today that I plan to investigate further. I acted like a manual switch for a couple of nickels where I reversed the DC current periodically to see how the coatings behaved. I let current flow until the resistance reached about 50 ohms in one direction and then reversed the current until the same value was seen in the other direction. This procedure was carried out for about 5 cycles. Initially, a green coating was deposited upon the positively connected nickel which was then flaked off by the reverse current. A significant amount of green material was deposited within my electrolyte due to the cyclic coating and flaking. The AC was then applied and I noticed that very little gas was escaping from the electrodes even though a current of 1 to 2 amps was flowing. The resistance remained low during the AC testing which is in process as I write. The electrolyte evaporated twice to a level that had to be replenish as typical. This post is a quick update. Dave -Original Message- From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:New Experiment Started Jack, that is just about right. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Dave, You wrote: Chuck, have you given consideration to some process that might treat the CuB2O3 or NiB2O3 differently so that the copper might be taken away from the nickel surface selectively? It might be possible to selectively erode the copper leaving NAE in large quantities. I think you can get this with the oxidization process with using a nickel as the anode with DC for a couple of hours to form the green oxidized copper. The green oxidized copper can then be burned off with a torch. My approach has been to first use the nicked as an anode for 1 to 2 hours. Burn off the oxidized copper with a torch. Then slow treat with hydrogen as the cathode and low current DC for a few days. Then switch to AC. With respect to the B2O3, I've found that most of this will burn off. But I have some that simply melted into a transparent clear blob adhering to some of the surfaces of the nickels. Take care, Jack On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Thanks Chuck, the experimentation has been going on now for a couple of days and I did notice unusual behavior that I was not expecting. I performed a small experiment using AC with new nickels that had not been undergoing electrolysis at any time and saw that they did not show any of the green coating that was so evident with DC. Instead, there was a jet black coating being formed upon the nickels. Then, I applied DC to my cell and a green coating began to form over top of the previous black coating upon the nickel connected to the positive terminal. I allowed this process to continue for a few hours and then scraped off the net coating to get a orange copperish looking finish where the old coatings were. This finish has a rough appearance. So far the bottom line is that AC drive behaves far differently than DC drive in this system. I can definitely see boiling electrolyte temperatures between the two nickels with AC drive while far fewer bubbles of gas are released by the active mechanisms as compared to DC drive. With AC, the effective resistance of the combination remains much lower than with DC current. The high resistance appears to correspond with the deposition of the green coating that follows DC current flow. My present transformer will not allow me to achieve the 100-140 volt drive levels so that would have to be achieved by some other means. I have a few ideas regarding the use of an adjustable transformer, but that would be difficult to handle. I do not feel comfortable with direct connection by metallic path to the AC mains. It would be too easy to become electrocuted with one careless maneuver. My AC RMS voltage is 21 volts for these tests so the resistance must remain less than 10 ohms between the terminals if I am to drive the system with 2 amps of current. I am able to achieve this goal without too much difficulty when the green coating is absent. I need to perform more experimentation with this combination. The salts you suspect are interesting. Do you suspect that the normal oxides of the nickel and copper are suppressed? Also, I am not aware of any visual change to the surface of the nickel if hydrogen has entered. Would anyone expect a color change or other indication when this
