Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about this. In fact, if you read pig breeding books, they would recommend that you wait until the second estrus to mate that gilt. This my friends are facts. In fact, in fact, in fact. The older the gilt is when you first mate her, the more and bigger your piglets. This is easy to understand. An older gilt's body is more mature and will support more piglets compared to a young gilt on her first cycle. The same is true with human girls. Everyone agrees that exhibiting menstrual cycle at 9 years of age is unusually early for a little girl. Normal menstrual age is about 11-12, most even don't cycle until they are 14. Ask any doctor. Now here comes Lomax and argues that a 9 year old little girl is sexually mature because she has had her first cycle. Apparently, she was not because we have no documented pregnancy of A'isha when she was 9. Her body was simply not mature enough to carry a full term baby to delivery, much like a young gilt. My friends, despite what Lomax would like you to believe, nature and experience tells us an early menstruating girl of 9 is clearly not sexually mature. BTW, Lomax claims that a little girl's mammary glands would develop if she has a baby. Apparently, Lomax has not seen mammary glands of first cycle gilts who became pregnant. They are not developed despite having piglets. It contains little milk. Piglets of young gilts need to have supplemental milk. This my friends is the truth of the normal order of things. But Lomax, twist it, to justify the actions of his retrograde HOLEY prophet. (Lomax still has not caught on why I spell Holy - HOLEY. Contrary to what Lomax would like to believe, I do know how to spell Holy. LOL ...) Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age At 10:01 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: What are you suggesting lomax? That age is uncertain whether she was 9 or 10. Either way, what muhammed practiced was abhorrent and retrograde. No, *Jojo* is abhorrent and retrograde. That's because he's now. What Muhammad did wasn't abhorrent, because nobody hated it. Then. It wasn't retrograde, either, it was not odd or strange or unusual. If A'isha has had her first menstrual cycle, does that mean she is a sexually mature woman. Yes. That's what the word means. It does not mean that no further maturation can occur. It means that she is capable of becoming a mother. Lomax seems to believe this and asking vorticians to swallow this. No, I don't care what Vorticians think, but I'm not seeing any support, here, for Jojo's viciousness. OK, show of hands, which of us with daughters 9 or 10 years old, that have had their first mentrual cycle that we would consider to be sexually mature. Hand up. That is, if I knew that my daugher had her first period, I'd know that she was sexually mature. That has consequences. For pete's sake. These little girls do not have fully developed mammary glands yet, and Lomax thinks they are sexually mature. This is the corruption of islam for all to see. The glands will work if she gets pregnant. Jojo is making silly arguments. The issue is not today's girls, and the conditions girls face today. The issue is Jojo's claim that was was done *then* was abhorrent and retrograde *then*. And we don't now the age. Some sources conclude that Ayesha was much older. OK, show of hands, which of the following sources does one consider more reliable. Reliable for what? Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari vs. wikipedia and Internet blogs. For hadith, Muslim and Bukhari. For general information on Islam, hands down, Wikipedia. Muslim and Bukhari are not manuals
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about this. In fact, if you read pig breeding books, they would recommend that you wait until the second estrus to mate that gilt. This my friends are facts. In fact, in fact, in fact. The older the gilt is when you first mate her, the more and bigger your piglets. This is easy to understand. An older gilt's body is more mature and will support more piglets compared to a young gilt on her first cycle. The same is true with human girls. Everyone agrees that exhibiting menstrual cycle at 9 years of age is unusually early for a little girl. Normal menstrual age is about 11-12, most even don't cycle until they are 14. Ask any doctor. Now here comes Lomax and argues that a 9 year old little girl is sexually mature because she has had her first cycle. Apparently, she was not because we have no documented pregnancy of A'isha when she was 9. Her body was simply not mature enough to carry a full term baby to delivery, much like a young gilt. My friends, despite what Lomax would like you to believe, nature and experience tells us an early menstruating girl of 9 is clearly not sexually mature. BTW, Lomax claims that a little girl's mammary glands would develop if she has a baby. Apparently, Lomax has not seen mammary glands of first cycle gilts who became pregnant. They are not developed despite having piglets. It contains little milk. Piglets of young gilts need to have supplemental milk. This my friends is the truth of the normal order of things. But Lomax, twist it, to justify the actions of his retrograde HOLEY prophet. (Lomax still has not caught on why I spell Holy - HOLEY. Contrary to what Lomax would like to believe, I do know how to spell Holy. LOL ...) Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age At 10:01 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: What are you suggesting lomax? That age is uncertain whether she was 9 or 10. Either way, what muhammed practiced was abhorrent and retrograde. No, *Jojo* is abhorrent and retrograde. That's because he's now. What Muhammad did wasn't abhorrent, because nobody hated it. Then. It wasn't retrograde, either, it was not odd or strange or unusual. If A'isha has had her first menstrual cycle, does that mean she is a sexually mature woman. Yes. That's what the word means. It does not mean that no further maturation can occur. It means that she is capable of becoming a mother. Lomax seems to believe this and asking vorticians to swallow this. No, I don't care what Vorticians
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I disagree with this! [snip] If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space.[/snip] Equivalent velocity is a function of the environment, ie a gravity well or warp in space time, the velocity of the object is unchanged locally whether we discuss our equivalent acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 or a near luminal equivalent acceleration approaching an event horizon. In both cases the acceleration still dilates space-time in the Pythagorean relationship of V^2/C^2 such that it is almost negligible until you reach large fractions of C. The photon is always traveling at C from it's local perspective - A Lorentzian perspective would say the ether always intersects our 3d plane at the same local rate C and that time dilation and Lorentzian contraction is natures way of dealing with the inconsistency. It would be nice to compare it to an aircraft with a head wind or tail wind with one extraordinary difference.. the rate of the head or tail wind redefines our time quanta proportionally. My whole point here is that gravity doesn't steal energy to red shift a photon.. the photon is locally still traveling at the same speed but a gravity well subtracts and a gravity warp adds equivalent velocity to that number which will dissipate just like the head or tail wind relative to an aircraft. The less energy you refer to is relative, a calculated number that becomes meaningless when both observer and observed occupy the same frame. IMHO Fran -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond the event horizon, heading outward, it is never red shifted to zero. (I was incorrect about energy, though. Energy is lost in climbing the gravitational well, stored as potential energy from gravity.) What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. I didn't think that. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it
RE: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Hasn't Prof. Graneau identified arc explosions in water as overunity? That a turbine should be engineered to take advantage of the effect as free energy? Papp did mention water vapor in his engine patent, if I recall correctly. The Russians did a lot of work on the Electrohydraulic effect back in the '70's that was utterly ignored, as well.
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Axil, I like a lot of your theory but think you are drawing too quickly your initial conclusion that no heat means no atomic hydrogen is being produced ..and even here we may be getting into syntax since atomic hydrogen once formed wants to immediately recombine.. and here is also my point that most disassociation and reassociation cycles are going to be almost instantaneous and the energy in to disassociate will normally be more than the energy released upon reassociation .. so the spark could very well be disassociating hydrogen which immediately reforms with little thermal indication for this.. a bootstrap requirement to set up the environment that your plasma theory or other over unity theories can multiply without an external source of energy -tapping some sort of zero point or LENR to keep the up the disassociation portion of the cycle while still releasing energy at the same rate on the reassociation portion of the cycle. Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is notoriously exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature rises little if at all The fact that Russ has seen no heat produced by the spark discharge in hydrogen speaks to the fact that no atomic hydrogen is produced by the spark discharge. This is a clue to what is going on inside the gas medium. This insightful experimental observation supports the theory that accelerating plasmoid movement toward the head of the cylinder is the primary source of the power generated by the Papp reaction. If the plasmoid is the active power producing structure in the Papp engine, then it can concentrate a large number of electrons is high amperage circulating current flow concentrations at and around the outer surface of the plasmoid. As the plasmoid move through the uncharged dialectic gaseous medium(UDGM), The plasmoid must generate large numbers of negative charged clusters of gas atoms in the thin boundary zone between the plasmoids negative charged current layer and the UDGM. It is this contrail of residual negatively charged gas clusters that must be neutralized before the start of the next cycle can begin. This process of charge neutralization is how the feedback current is generated. The magnitude of this feedback current might be greater than the current that produced the spark discharge under certain noble gas mixtures. This increase in current can be one of the contributors to over unity power generation in the Papp reaction. This may also be the reason why the Papp engine exploded during the R. Feynman demo when an unchecked positive feedback current loop was formed between the various cylinders when the circuit that controlled the current feed to these cylinders was disabled. Increasing spark discharge current having been directly supported by the feedback current from other various cylinders produced a series of plasmoids of increasing strength. It was this uncontrolled current loop that eventually culminated in an explosive disintegration of the Papp engine after a few moments of unregulated operation when the control circuit was disabled after R. Feynman pulled the plug to the control unit. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 8:42 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.commailto:jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is notoriously exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature rises little if at all? On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:33 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.commailto:dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The discussion of Papp and his engine leads me to one question. Is it possible that the extra force that Russ, the video experimenter, obtained using hydrogen as the active gas was due to the dissociation of the hydrogen molecules into individual atoms? I suspect that the pressure must increase in such an environment due to the fact that there are more particles colliding. This may have been discussed previously, but the thought just came into my mind and I wanted to pass it on. Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
At 02:43 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK Lomax, let's agree to disagree. No, because Jojo lies about what we supposedly disagree about. In this agree to disagree post, he again lies, after having been corrected many times, about what I say. I haven't said what he opposes to his positino. In one case, in this series, he says for himself, what he has not prevously said. He says that polygamy is abhorrent and retrograde. Retrograde it might be, that's arguable, but abhorrent, not. Here is a Christian effectively claiming that what Abraham did, with the support of his first wife, Sarah, is abhorrent. Yet it was within the customs of the time. Nobody telling the story, which is how we know it, thought it was abhorrent. The analogy with what Muhammad did and Jojo's claims about it is clear. In another thread, Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies , Jojo lies about what he, himself, quoted, included in the mail, the Executive Order from President Obama, and continues to lie about it. This is perfect, because he lies about what is in his own mail. When he lies about the truth, and doesn't provide sources -- the norm for him -- it's possible to imagine he is merely mistaken, or, for some, that he's telling the truth, *unless one investigates.* But where the subject he's lying about is right in front of us, that's no longer possible -- unless, of course, what he's claimng is there is actually there. There are only a few possibilities remaining here. 1. Jojo is high-functioning, in certain ways, but insane. Hallucinating. 2. Jojo is a troll, and lies because it continues the trolling. I had an excuse for responding to some of his posts. Most of what he's written consists of things that are believed by a substantial number of people, or at least many think that what he's saying is possible. He's asserting common ignorant tropes. So responding to them places information about these subjects in a public record, apposite to the claims. It's been suggested by someone I respect that the job is done. Jojo has revealed his complete insanity, and that takes us to a possible understanding of the second possibility above. Jojo's mission has been to discredit all the positions he takes. It's called a straw puppet, a combination of straw man and sock puppet. It's rare, but I've seen it. In the thread on FGM, I came upon and acknoweldged a tragedy, that Muslim scholars had inadequately educated the Muslim public about the true meaning of female circumcision as found in the classical sources for Islam, but have allowed ignorance and fundamentalist populism to hold sway. There is a parallel tragedy here, that sane Christian evangelists (I do not think that an oxymoron) have not spoken up to distance their faith from people like Jojo. The result is a discredit to the religion, as a social phenomenon. Islam has suffered from the same, to a degree, but that's ending. Scholars *are* speaking up against the often violent and brutal -- and ignorant -- fundamentalists. End of topic. Jojo has claimed that he'll let [me] have the last word on this topic. He has said the like of that before and was lying -- or if he wasn't lying, he did not honor his word. Let's see what he does this time. He can keep his word or not, I'm done here. I say intercourse between a 50 year old man and a 9 year old little girl is abhorrent and retrograde. You say it is justified because people around him were not offended. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say marrying multiple wives is abhorrent and retrograde, you say it is OK because other tribes do it. Let's allow the reader to decide if this is abhorrent. I say worshipping a 2nd rate moon god of muhammed's tribe is retarded, you say it is not, Let's allow the readers to decide if the mood god is their cup of tea over a the Universal God of Judaism and Christianity. I say a 9 year old little girl is not sexually mature to be a mother, you say she is because she has had her first menstrual cycle. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say the practice of FGM is abhorrent, since it does not have any redeeming or medical value, you say it is OK. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say the truth and cite quality evidence, you tell lies and cite wikipedia and Internet blogs as your evidence. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I tell the truth about islam and highlight the corruption of a retrograde and violent religion, you lie and lie for the good of muhammed and islam. Let's allow the readers to decide. Frankly, I grow tired of reading you boring lengthy tiresome lies of an essay. I guess you've found a way to shut me up. Just bore me with tiresome spin and lies. So, I bow out and let you have the last word on this topic. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To:
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I do not think that the photon goes at a speed less than light speed for any observer. From a far off observer it just appears to be red shifted from its beginning point. I guess you might say that from our far off point of view, it never had any extra energy in the first place because we never saw any extra. The same is true for everyone as you say so perhaps my idea is not possible. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 9:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon I disagree with this! [snip] If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space.[/snip] Equivalent velocity is a function of the environment, ie a gravity well or warp in space time, the velocity of the object is unchanged locally whether we discuss our equivalent acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 or a near luminal equivalent acceleration approaching an event horizon. In both cases the acceleration still dilates space-time in the Pythagorean relationship of V^2/C^2 such that it is almost negligible until you reach large fractions of C. The photon is always traveling at C from it's local perspective - A Lorentzian perspective would say the ether always intersects our 3d plane at the same local rate C and that time dilation and Lorentzian contraction is natures way of dealing with the inconsistency. It would be nice to compare it to an aircraft with a head wind or tail wind with one extraordinary difference.. the rate of the head or tail wind redefines our time quanta proportionally. My whole point here is that gravity doesn't steal energy to red shift a photon.. the photon is locally still traveling at the same speed but a gravity well subtracts and a gravity warp adds equivalent velocity to that number which will dissipate just like the head or tail wind relative to an aircraft. The less energy you refer to is relative, a calculated number that becomes meaningless when both observer and observed occupy the same frame. IMHO Fran -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond
Re: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
The end of the particle wave closest to the horizon will be blue shifted, the opposite end is redshifted with all of the energy sucked out of it. Still traveling at the speed of light On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: It is difficult to grasp what you are saying in regard to the hydrogen, but it might sink in with time as my subconscious grinds away on your ideas. I have problems with that little demon guy and suspect that there is a way to sort the hot atoms from the cold ones. I actually consider nature having already built such a device for us in the form of radiation. Why would the emission of IR from a energized molecule not be an example? The effective energy of the gas system is reduced by this emission since it only originates from the energized molecules and not the colder less energetic ones. If the object is to take heat out of a system as the end result then it has been achieved. We can capture the IR at a distant point and convert it into electricity while the source gas has become less energized. The demon has been pushed aside by this process since we found a way around the beast. I do not consider this process a violation of the COE. It might seem problematic from a thermodynamic point of view since it involves taking energy from just one source and not using the difference in energy between two sources to get work. In a way, the other source is empty space which is lower in energy. I have tried to get around the demon in another manner. Why not substitute very large simulated atoms (like pool balls) for the real thing? If the pool balls exhibit inelastic collisions and can be trapped within a cavity of some nature, they should be a stand in for atoms. I am sure we could find some way to separate out the fast moving pool balls by using less energy than required to operate the separation mechanism. This seems like a scaling issue. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I think you have it pretty much correct but like you don’t know if it has ever been proven other than as an extension to the small proven dilations accumulated by satellites. I would also agree that distance is modified but this again is due to dilation and would only be from our perspective due to Lorentzian contraction of the spaceship as it approaches the horizon. It should be a straightforward Pythagorean relationship between space and time where one can not deviate without the other V^2/C^2. I posit the hydrogen in a Casimir cavity reflects the same relationship between itself and our macro world here on earth as we perceive between ourselves and the spaceship nearing the horizon. This is what Jan Naudts was saying in his 2005 paper suggesting the Mills hydrino was relativistic hydrogen.. not in the sense Mills used regarding hydrogen being ejected by the suns corona which is still the typical Lorentzian contraction of an object approaching C or the gravitational equivalent of an event horizon but rather the differential of an object experiencing a gravitational hill/deficit relative to the macro world where from it’s perspective as “normal” we in the macro world appear to be the dilated objects slowing down to a near stop. I propose that changes in the “height” of a gravity hill are the basis for catalytic action like we see in skeletal cats and nano powders such that it is the geometry of the conductive metal that establishes the environment in opposition to stiction… the hydrogen, like the spaceship approaching the environment is merely reacting to the already established environment…. This may be the power source behind all the anomalous claims on Ni-H in contradiction to COE because COE falsely assumes that a HUP trap [maxwellian demon is impossible] – it may be impossible to fabricate but if nature can be induced to naturally assemble I believe you can create heat by putting forces like Casimir stiction into opposition with random gas motion…. It just takes a very craftily set stage to avoid self destruction o the props. Regards Fran *From:* ChemE Stewart [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:38 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
As a matter of fact my friend, the practice of Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and other old testament Jews are in fact Abhorrent and retrograde. And you will never hear a Christian justifying these acts. Jesus corrected these retrograde acts. In the New Testament, you will never hear of a Christian having multiple wives ever again. That is the act of a real God and teacher. He corrects and ends retrograde practices. Now, what did muhammed do? Instead of ending it, he embraced it and justified it. His propaganda book the koran, teaches that a man must only have 4 wives. He had 12 according to Lomax. History tells us that he had dozens of wives and concubines and sex toys. But instead of condemning this erroneous act of his HOLEY prophet, he justifies it and try to spin it away. How enlightened and progressive of you Lomax. This is the corruption of islam for all to see. Once again, Just because it was done by all peoples, does not mean it is right. God's intention has always been 1 man to 1 wife. It's as simple as that. I promise you, you will never find me justifying the actions of David by saying that it is OK, because that was the culture at that time. Both David and Solomon are some of the most admired teachers of Christians. But we do not justify their wrong actions. We do not justify their sins. We tell it as it is. That my friends, is the action of honest men. Contrast that to the acts of Lomax. He comes up with various spins, irrelenvancies and lies, to confuse the issue. He then justifies the retrograde acts by claiming that that is the normal cultural thing that people do. I'm not surprised. Lomax feels he is justified in doing this because what he is doing is for the good of islam and muhammed. One prominent Christian once said: (and I quote to the best of my recollection.) A muslim will lie if he feels his lie will serve islam. Remember this fact when you are debating with a muslim. And now, the truth of this statement is evident for all to see. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age At 02:43 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK Lomax, let's agree to disagree. No, because Jojo lies about what we supposedly disagree about. In this agree to disagree post, he again lies, after having been corrected many times, about what I say. I haven't said what he opposes to his positino. In one case, in this series, he says for himself, what he has not prevously said. He says that polygamy is abhorrent and retrograde. Retrograde it might be, that's arguable, but abhorrent, not. Here is a Christian effectively claiming that what Abraham did, with the support of his first wife, Sarah, is abhorrent. Yet it was within the customs of the time. Nobody telling the story, which is how we know it, thought it was abhorrent. The analogy with what Muhammad did and Jojo's claims about it is clear. In another thread, Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies , Jojo lies about what he, himself, quoted, included in the mail, the Executive Order from President Obama, and continues to lie about it. This is perfect, because he lies about what is in his own mail. When he lies about the truth, and doesn't provide sources -- the norm for him -- it's possible to imagine he is merely mistaken, or, for some, that he's telling the truth, *unless one investigates.* But where the subject he's lying about is right in front of us, that's no longer possible -- unless, of course, what he's claimng is there is actually there. There are only a few possibilities remaining here. 1. Jojo is high-functioning, in certain ways, but insane. Hallucinating. 2. Jojo is a troll, and lies because it continues the trolling. I had an excuse for responding to some of his posts. Most of what he's written consists of things that are believed by a substantial number of people, or at least many think that what he's saying is possible. He's asserting common ignorant tropes. So responding to them places information about these subjects in a public record, apposite to the claims. It's been suggested by someone I respect that the job is done. Jojo has revealed his complete insanity, and that takes us to a possible understanding of the second possibility above. Jojo's mission has been to discredit all the positions he takes. It's called a straw puppet, a combination of straw man and sock puppet. It's rare, but I've seen it. In the thread on FGM, I came upon and acknoweldged a tragedy, that Muslim scholars had inadequately educated the Muslim public about the true meaning of female circumcision as found in the classical sources for Islam, but have allowed ignorance and fundamentalist populism to hold sway. There is a parallel tragedy here, that sane Christian
Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
I agree with the plasmoid description, I believe it is the same as
the entropic dark matter particle I have arrived at. These plasmoids are
also found in comet tails and the Earth's magnetotail. This stuff is
in all energy levels and very energetic in contact with ordinary matter and
shoot out a tail of charges particles
Stewart
Darkmattersalot.com
On Friday, December 28, 2012, Axil Axil wrote:
*“The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is
notoriously exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature
rises little if at all”*
The fact that Russ has seen no heat produced by the spark discharge in
hydrogen speaks to the fact that no atomic hydrogen is produced by the
spark discharge. This is a clue to what is going on inside the gas medium.
This insightful experimental observation supports the theory that
accelerating plasmoid movement toward the head of the cylinder is the
primary source of the power generated by the Papp reaction.
If the plasmoid is the active power producing structure in the Papp
engine, then it can concentrate a large number of electrons is high
amperage circulating current flow concentrations at and around the outer
surface of the plasmoid.
As the plasmoid move through the uncharged dialectic gaseous medium(UDGM),
The plasmoid must generate large numbers of negative charged clusters of
gas atoms in the thin boundary zone between the plasmoids negative charged
current layer and the UDGM.
It is this contrail of residual negatively charged gas clusters that must
be neutralized before the start of the next cycle can begin. This process
of charge neutralization is how the feedback current is generated.
The magnitude of this feedback current might be greater than the current
that produced the spark discharge under certain noble gas mixtures.
This increase in current can be one of the contributors to over unity
power generation in the Papp reaction.
This may also be the reason why the Papp engine exploded during the R.
Feynman demo when an unchecked positive feedback current loop was formed
between the various cylinders when the circuit that controlled the current
feed to these cylinders was disabled.
Increasing spark discharge current having been directly supported by the
feedback current from other various cylinders produced a series of
plasmoids of increasing strength. It was this uncontrolled current loop
that eventually culminated in an explosive disintegration of the Papp
engine after a few moments of unregulated operation when the control
circuit was disabled after R. Feynman pulled the plug to the control unit.
Cheers: Axil
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 8:42 PM, James Bowery
jabow...@gmail.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'jabow...@gmail.com');
wrote:
The recombination of atomic hydrogen to diatomic hydrogen is notoriously
exothermic. Why, then, is it reported that the gas temperature rises
little if at all?
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 7:33 PM, David Roberson
dlrober...@aol.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'dlrober...@aol.com');
wrote:
The discussion of Papp and his engine leads me to one question. Is it
possible that the extra force that Russ, the video experimenter, obtained
using hydrogen as the active gas was due to the dissociation of the
hydrogen molecules into individual atoms? I suspect that the pressure must
increase in such an environment due to the fact that there are more
particles colliding. This may have been discussed previously, but the
thought just came into my mind and I wanted to pass it on.
Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about this. In fact, if you read pig breeding books, they would recommend that you wait until the second estrus to mate that gilt. This my friends are facts. In fact, in fact, in fact. The older the gilt is when you first mate her, the more and bigger your piglets. This is easy to understand. An older gilt's body is more mature and will support more piglets compared to a young gilt on her first cycle. The same is true with human girls. Everyone agrees that exhibiting menstrual cycle at 9 years of age is unusually early for a little girl. Normal menstrual age is about 11-12, most even don't cycle until they are 14. Ask any doctor. Now here comes Lomax and argues that a 9 year old little girl is sexually mature because she has had her first cycle. Apparently, she was not because we have no documented pregnancy of A'isha when she was 9. Her body was simply not mature enough to carry a full term baby to delivery, much like a young gilt. My friends, despite what Lomax would like you to believe, nature and experience tells us an early menstruating girl of 9 is clearly not sexually mature. BTW, Lomax claims that a little girl's mammary glands would develop if she has a baby. Apparently, Lomax has not seen mammary glands of first cycle gilts who became pregnant. They are not developed despite having piglets. It contains little milk. Piglets of young gilts need to have supplemental milk. This my friends is the truth of the normal order of things. But Lomax, twist it, to justify the actions of his retrograde HOLEY prophet. (Lomax still has not caught on why I spell Holy - HOLEY. Contrary to what Lomax would like to believe, I do know how to spell Holy. LOL ...) Jojo - Original
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
2 questions. First' Which statement specifically do you think I am just making up? Second, Are you serious in wanting to know, or are you just intending to insult me? If you are serious, I will answer you and explain to you where I get these. Jojo - Original Message - From: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age On 12/27/2012 11:12 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK, since you asked. Don't say I am trolling. There is reason to believe that fallen angels are trying to breed with humans to create a hybrid race. The Bible called these hybrids Nephilims. They were universal during the days of Noah. They interbred with human women to give birth to giant hybrids - Hercules, Persues, Atlas etc. They interbreed with normal animal to give birth to hideous dinasaurs and loathsome creatures. This was the primary reason why God had to wipe out the entire race of life on Earth with a global flood. Fallen angels and demons wanted to subvert the plan of God by corrupting man. If human DNA are all tainted with demonic DNA, the messiah, which has to come as a man (pure human) can not come. They would have effectively thwarted God's plan for redemption. You know you're just making this stuff up, right?
Re: [Vo]:Digital information storage in DNA
If you don't want to read it, then do not mouth off and pretend to be a expert in this subject matter. You know what they say; ...the height of ignorance. At least I have read it, albeit a long time ago. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Digital information storage in DNA At 11:18 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Read Darwin's The origin of Species first before you mouth off with these ignorant rantings. Why should I read it? This is typical of you, you claim expertise I have not claimed expertise on this or any other topic. Sometimes I have unusual knowledge, but that's not expertise. Ah, I've claimed expertise on Wikipedia process. and cloud the debate with irrelevancy and write long boring, tiresome irrelevant essays hoping that people don't read it. It's working for me sometimes, I tire of your lengthy hot air. Can we hope that you will tire all the way?
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Excellent analysis of my motives there Lomax. Hmmm, could it be? might it be possible? that I just don't want people to be deceived by your propaganda - that's why I am responding so vigorously to your lies. KISS, my friend. Keep It Simple Stupid! Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age At 02:43 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: OK Lomax, let's agree to disagree. No, because Jojo lies about what we supposedly disagree about. In this agree to disagree post, he again lies, after having been corrected many times, about what I say. I haven't said what he opposes to his positino. In one case, in this series, he says for himself, what he has not prevously said. He says that polygamy is abhorrent and retrograde. Retrograde it might be, that's arguable, but abhorrent, not. Here is a Christian effectively claiming that what Abraham did, with the support of his first wife, Sarah, is abhorrent. Yet it was within the customs of the time. Nobody telling the story, which is how we know it, thought it was abhorrent. The analogy with what Muhammad did and Jojo's claims about it is clear. In another thread, Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies , Jojo lies about what he, himself, quoted, included in the mail, the Executive Order from President Obama, and continues to lie about it. This is perfect, because he lies about what is in his own mail. When he lies about the truth, and doesn't provide sources -- the norm for him -- it's possible to imagine he is merely mistaken, or, for some, that he's telling the truth, *unless one investigates.* But where the subject he's lying about is right in front of us, that's no longer possible -- unless, of course, what he's claimng is there is actually there. There are only a few possibilities remaining here. 1. Jojo is high-functioning, in certain ways, but insane. Hallucinating. 2. Jojo is a troll, and lies because it continues the trolling. I had an excuse for responding to some of his posts. Most of what he's written consists of things that are believed by a substantial number of people, or at least many think that what he's saying is possible. He's asserting common ignorant tropes. So responding to them places information about these subjects in a public record, apposite to the claims. It's been suggested by someone I respect that the job is done. Jojo has revealed his complete insanity, and that takes us to a possible understanding of the second possibility above. Jojo's mission has been to discredit all the positions he takes. It's called a straw puppet, a combination of straw man and sock puppet. It's rare, but I've seen it. In the thread on FGM, I came upon and acknoweldged a tragedy, that Muslim scholars had inadequately educated the Muslim public about the true meaning of female circumcision as found in the classical sources for Islam, but have allowed ignorance and fundamentalist populism to hold sway. There is a parallel tragedy here, that sane Christian evangelists (I do not think that an oxymoron) have not spoken up to distance their faith from people like Jojo. The result is a discredit to the religion, as a social phenomenon. Islam has suffered from the same, to a degree, but that's ending. Scholars *are* speaking up against the often violent and brutal -- and ignorant -- fundamentalists. End of topic. Jojo has claimed that he'll let [me] have the last word on this topic. He has said the like of that before and was lying -- or if he wasn't lying, he did not honor his word. Let's see what he does this time. He can keep his word or not, I'm done here. I say intercourse between a 50 year old man and a 9 year old little girl is abhorrent and retrograde. You say it is justified because people around him were not offended. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say marrying multiple wives is abhorrent and retrograde, you say it is OK because other tribes do it. Let's allow the reader to decide if this is abhorrent. I say worshipping a 2nd rate moon god of muhammed's tribe is retarded, you say it is not, Let's allow the readers to decide if the mood god is their cup of tea over a the Universal God of Judaism and Christianity. I say a 9 year old little girl is not sexually mature to be a mother, you say she is because she has had her first menstrual cycle. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say the practice of FGM is abhorrent, since it does not have any redeeming or medical value, you say it is OK. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I say the truth and cite quality evidence, you tell lies and cite wikipedia and Internet blogs as your evidence. Let's allow the readers to decide if this is abhorrent. I tell the truth
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - *From:* Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about this. In fact, if you read pig breeding books, they would recommend that you wait until the second estrus to mate that gilt. This my friends are facts. In fact, in fact, in fact. The older the gilt is when you first mate her, the more and bigger your piglets. This is easy to understand. An older gilt's body is more mature and will support more piglets compared to a young gilt on her first cycle. The same is true with human girls. Everyone agrees that exhibiting menstrual cycle at 9 years of age is unusually early for a little girl. Normal menstrual age is about 11-12, most even don't cycle until they are 14. Ask any doctor. Now here comes Lomax and argues that a 9 year old little girl is sexually mature because she has had her first cycle. Apparently, she was not because we have no documented pregnancy of A'isha when she was 9. Her body was simply not mature enough
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Unfortunately I sense lots of bad mojo behind many of the posts in this exchange On Friday, December 28, 2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - *From:* Peter Gluck *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show the
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Mark, how far back have you followed this exchange. Were you here 6 months ago? 1 year ago? Before you even start to insult me, please please please study up on the history of this. Abd responds politely Come on, either be objective or just go ahead and start insulting. Abd started this round of insults as he did a few months ago. Please refrain from making these hurtful comments until you've investigated the matter more closely. For crreps sake, you're supposed to be an investigative reporter. So investigate properly. Jojo - Original Message - From: Mark Gibbs To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about this. In fact, if you read
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Mark, has it occured to you or to Peter or to others that it is precisely these kinds of biased hurtful insults that cause me to lash out at you, Peter and Lomax. I am capable of discussing rationally with civility as many in this list can attest. But I will not suffer insults like this. Please consider this as my final warning. If you have investigated this properly, you will conclude that I was discussing calmly and politely with some members here before Lomax, SVJ and others started their round of insults. Please be objective before you start mouthing off. Jojo - Original Message - From: Mark Gibbs To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3 piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am lying about
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
I have set this thread to auto-delete, but I noticed this -- Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. I don't suppose it is that bad, but the conversation should be moved to the alternate list VortexB-L. That is what the second list is for. See: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html VORTEX B: Besides vortex-L, there is also 'vortexB-L.' This is a secondary forum which has no rules. We use it for extremely off-topic discussions, and also as a flameproof place for any groups who feel a need to engage in verbal fisticuffs. Speaking of B lists and B-this-or-that, I have learned that you can get influenza-B even after getting an influenza shot. You get both the needle and the disease, or what the Japanese call a bee stinging a crying face (adding insult to injury). If it isn't going to work, they could at least make it a nasal spritz. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Of course there's a lot of bad mojo. How would you feel if you are insulted at every turn? by people ignorant of the real situation. First Lomax, then SVJ, then Rocha, then Craig, then Walker then Jouni then Peter and now Mark. All openning their comments with insults. ( I have not included those people who made mild insults like you.) I am capable of discussing with civility as I have with David and a few others. If people want to insult, an insult is what they will receive back. Jojo - Original Message - From: ChemE Stewart To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Unfortunately I sense lots of bad mojo behind many of the posts in this exchange On Friday, December 28, 2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show the
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Does anyone know how to get William Beaty to manage the conduct on this list? If you look at the recent messages on this list ( http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/maillist.html) the ration of science to squabbling is ridiculous and mots of the traffic comes from just a few people going seriously off topic. If Beaty isn't willing to moderate and push the OT stuff over to Vortex B then someone (Jed?) should seriously consider starting an alternative list. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Of course there's a lot of bad mojo. How would you feel if you are insulted at every turn? by people ignorant of the real situation. First Lomax, then SVJ, then Rocha, then Craig, then Walker then Jouni then Peter and now Mark. All openning their comments with insults. ( I have not included those people who made mild insults like you.) I am capable of discussing with civility as I have with David and a few others. If people want to insult, an insult is what they will receive back. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:24 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Unfortunately I sense lots of bad mojo behind many of the posts in this exchange On Friday, December 28, 2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - *From:* Peter Gluck *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message. Peter On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience. I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts (teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show the
[Vo]:Mr. Beaty's absence should not be be taken as a form of passive approval of Mr. Jaro's posting content
The following brief exchange was extracted from a recent post, subject thread: [Vo]:Digital information storage in DNA Jojo Jaro wrote: Your [Lomax's] opinion has certainly been noted by Bill. Quite obviously, I'm still here cause Bill saw nothing that I have done to deserve banning. Lomax Responded: Well, we don't know that. Bill sometimes pays little or no attention to this list for a time. I would expect Bill to comment either way, if he makes a decision. * * * * * * * * It would appear that Mr. Jaro has no intention of changing his intentions. In fact, it would appear that Mr. Jaro feels justified in continuing his intentions. Most, wisely ignore him, or filter out his posts, as I have done. Nevertheless, Mr. Jaro's vitriol continues to leak through the posts of others. Mr. Beaty has not responded to my private inquiries on the matter either. In the past Bill has always responded to personal inquiries - eventually. Bill can be quite an interesting fellow to engage in private conversation with! In my own private exchanges I noticed that Bill never shied away from expressing personal opinions that might differ from my own. I always respected Bill for being up front. Therefore, Bill's continued absence would suggest a few things to me personally, such as: It would appear that Mr. Beaty has not shown much active interest in the day-to-day routine maintenance of the Vortex-L list - perhaps for several months now. Meanwhile, Mr. Jaro seems to be interpreting Mr. Beaty's absence as a passive form of approval of his posting actions. I think it would be foolish for Mr. Jaro to assume he has interpreted Mr. Beaty's apparent passivity accurately. Mr. Jaro might want to consider why hasn't Mr. Beaty banned Mr. Lomax for his excessively lengthy rebuttals that Mr. Jaro claims are full of lies, or for that manner, why not me since Mr. Jaro has labeled me a troll. Mr. Jaro had suggested that I be banned after I had posted an obviously deliberately crafted satirical commentary that implied that the name, Jojo belonged to that of a black dog. Jojo has also called me a retard - so what additional ruling does one need in order to be banned from Vortex-l! But here we both are! Mr. Lomax - who continues to exhibit considerable knowledgeable on the subjects of Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism (besides science!), and me, a new age theoretician at heart, the retard. In my experience, Mr. Beaty has banned plenty of other trolls whose posting behavior had been less acerbic than Mr. Jaro's incessant pot shots. For example, a couple of recently banned trolls include: LORENHEYER of aol.com, and Mary Yugo. IMO, neither of these two posters had ever come close to the vitriol of Mr. Jaro's subject material. (Meanwhile, Mary Yugo continues to play in other playgrounds. And, in LORENHEYER's case, he seems content to post personal essays out on Vortex-b, much to Grok's, occasional annoyance.) As for Mr. Beaty's continued absence, perhaps the following statement might help explain his apparent in-action: *** http://amasci.com/amateur/amformG.html#urls SCIENCE HOBBYIST: SUGGEST AN URL, OR LEAVE A COMMENT ATTENTION! : I CAN'T ANSWER! I'm currently swamped by email, my backlog is over 8 weeks and growing! If you have science questions, try the experts listed here. To send me a quick note, use the GUESTBOOK. I'll receive it as an email message, and others will be able to see (and answer?) any questions you've entered in the book. To send me a private email message, use the form below. For SCIENCE FAIR PROJECTS, try Ideas Archive WANT TO HELP US WITH A DONATION? SEE ABOVE *** I did attempt to contact Mr. Beaty from this link, unsuccessfully I might add. So, there you have it. The evidence would seem to suggest that these days Mr. Beaty's interests lie elsewhere. Clearly, Mr. Beaty is a busy man with many activities that demand much of his attention. I certainly don't fault him for that! ;-) When Mr. Beaty has taken notice of a string of Vortex-l complaints it often seems to take the form of suddenly swooping in and banning the poster, along with a terse explanation as to why he did so. And then, just as suddenly as he swooped in... he's gone. Who was that masked man! As previously mentioned, Mr Beaty has a lot of interests besides moderating Vortex-l. Here are just a few other subjects: http://amasci.com/billb.html Under the circumstances it might be time to consider moving, or perhaps adding additional moderators. (THAT'S JUST A SUGGESTION BTW, NOT A DEMAND!) To expand on those suggestions: * Mr. Beaty might want to consider appointing one or two additional Vortex-l Moderators who can take turns playing a more active role in
RE: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
How about some Klonopin or other treatments for OCD? That's what I'm seeing here ( yes, from my own experience). I can't imagine anything more pointless than arguments about religious dogma. Time would be better spent discovering/developing free energy - by which means the entire Middle East would become gloriously irrelevant. Build a Golden Age and forget about these distractions forever.
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Beaty's absence should not be be taken as a form of passive approval of Mr. Jaro's posting content
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:55 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Perhaps Mr. Blanton could stand in as one of the moderators, since Terry already has extensive prior experience moderating large groups! You honor me, sir. I recently volunteered in an email to BB. No response, yet.
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Beaty's absence should not be be taken as a form of passive approval of Mr. Jaro's posting content
I second the nomination. I would think, though, that leaving this group as is, and more of a forced transfer of off topic replies to the new, off topic, group (which we already have, vortex b), and constant offenders have their posts put on a per approval basis. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:55 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Perhaps Mr. Blanton could stand in as one of the moderators, since Terry already has extensive prior experience moderating large groups! You honor me, sir. I recently volunteered in an email to BB. No response, yet.
[Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
Daniele Passerini says below the subject of LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week. Harry Italian: http://22passi.blogspot.ca/2012/12/nuova-interpellanza-parlamentare-pro.html google translation: Thursday, December 27, 2012New parliamentary interpellation pro LENR On 21 December last year, while many were concerned about the end of the world as we know it today, someone gave its contribution to end it really, as soon as possible, and to see rise to the era in which a range of knowledge, now confined within the fences of experience of Chemistry and Physics, for example, will finally be joined together to give life to the commercial and industrial exploitation of LENR and the scientific recognition of a heresy whose authors, today, are condemned to academic stake by the Inquisition for the scientist mere fact of naming it: the ability to catalyze nuclear reactions cleaned with certain technical procedures ... *** Double Act Question for written answer 4-19306 filed by ELIZABETH ZAMPARUTTI Friday, December 21, 2012, meeting no. 738 C.4/19306 ZAMPARUTTI, Scilipoti, BELTRANDI BERNARDINI, FLOUR COSCIONI, MECACCI and MAURIZIO TURKISH. - The President of the Council of Ministers, the Minister of Economic Development. - To know - given that: the reactions are piezonuclear fissions of non-radioactive elements and relatively light (from the iron down, in the table of Mendeleev) that split into elements inert even lighter, without the production of gamma rays and / or of radioactive long-lived, but with the emission of neutrons. They are induced by pressure waves both in liquids than in solids. The first evidence of such phenomena in solids have been observed by Professor Alberto Carpinteri at the Polytechnic of Turin in 2008, using granite rocks and basaltic stressed in compression and subject to fracture; Moreover, in the even broader field of low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), significant results have been obtained recently in Italy and in the world (USA, Japan, CIS) in laboratories and research centers of great prestige, even at an industrial character; as a result of these findings, the Commission EU research presented in July 2012, a document entitled 'Industrial unit material forward-looking technologies: workshop on materials for emerging energy technologies, which reiterated the' quality 'and importance of experimental results of the research on LENR, internationally, that deserves more attention in this new field of research with appropriate funding far-reaching; there is now a considerable amount of experiments conducted over the past few years, with a finally satisfactory repeatability of the phenomenon and a presence of an ever increasing number of similar experiences from other research groups that observed under varying conditions of stress abnormal reactions, including those of fission, in addition to important evidence obtained from the laboratory scale to that of the Earth's crust (in the specific case of piezofissione); LENR in Italy on several research groups are at the forefront in the world, researchers at STMicroelectronics (Dr. Mastromatteo) have recently confirmed the possibility to obtain in the laboratory nuclear fissions of light elements and the same researchers replicated with a different experimental setup , the important results from the point of view of calorimeter, obtained from Dr. Francesco Celani INFN Frascati in 2012; there is a good reproducibility of the experiments of Dr. Celani and a remarkable power density obtained in his experiments, reproducibility occurred thanks to the collaboration of scientists and engineers from National Instruments and their specific instrumentation; There are also the progress made in the field by Professor LENR Piantelli, former University of Siena, in 1992, and the results promising, recently announced (at the technological center of Pordenone) by Dr. Andrea Rossi, the results obtained thanks to the collaboration with Sergio Focardi, Professor Emeritus at the Department of Physics at the University of Bologna; there are also other replicas independent of the M. Fleischmann Memorial Project and by French institutional groups have confirmed the results confirmed by Dr. Celani -: whether and what action it will take the government to provide researchers and discoverers of these new phenomena the full assistance and support of the structures responsible to coordinate all relevant steps to obtain any support in terms of equipment and resources (ie research funds), with the aim of deepening the nuclear phenomena also highlighted and reach, ultimately, to industrial applications of these reactions; if the President of the Council of Ministers intends to meet researchers mentioned in the introduction, the presence of the holder of the Ministry of Economic Development and head of the department of legislation, in order to identify institutional paths acts to faster achievement of the stated
Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
At 12:12 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Weapons grade balonium. Anyone who cares can read this entire post and see that Jojo has lied, and is continuing to lie, about what is actually in this post. Jojo attempts, below, to avoid this by introducing new or separate arguments. They are highly unlikely to be true. But they are all avoiding the obvbous. He lied about the document that is copied here and he continues to lie about it. It is not necessary to continue to address the additional arguments that he makes below. This thread was started with a subject, the Birther Myth. The myth in question would be that there is an Executive Order that covers the Birth Certificate, that prohibites release of it, when the Order itself is quite explicit about what it covers, and what it covers has *nothing* to do with documents that are not Presidential Records, which are specific kinds of documents created by a President during their term of office. Thus there is a Birther Myth here, and that was Jojo's term, he created the subject header. He repeats the myth and refuses to actually address the evidence, what is in the document. The document was clearly created by an attorney (and seems to roughly follow a similar document created by Bush in late 2001). It's very explicit about what it covers and what it does not cover, and, in context, an Executive Order only covers those under the authority of the Executive. Jojo has been asked to describe how this document covers birth certificates and other documents that are not Presidential Records, and he has not even acknowledged the question. He just keeps repeating the myth. This conversation is useless. I'll continue with a response to his conversation here, but I expect this is the last time. Enough has been shown to establish Jojo as without credit or trustworthiness. If he says anything correct, it's an accident. You repeat your lies that people have seen Obama's BC, but nobody actually has. I have no personal knowledge as to whether anyone has seen Obama's BC, but unless Jojo is truly psychic, he has no knowledge that nobody has seen it. It's been seen by, at least, the following people, as would be established in a court of law if necessary. Some of these are matters of public record, some are merely readily inferred. Here is who has seen the *information* in the BC, or the BC itself, or a certified legal copy of it. 1. The person who prepared the information given to a clerk to be typed into the birth certificate form. 2. The clerk who typed it. 3. The person who signed it as having deliverer the child as described. 4. The clerk in the records office in Hawaii who assigned it a certificate number 5. The mother who was given a copy. 6. The person who released public information about the birth to Hawaiian newspapers at the time. 7. Persons who filed the document or added it to the bound volume. 8. The person who added certain codes to the document. 9. The person who keypunched the basic birth information into the Hawaiian system. 10. Any person who, over the years, issued a certified copy of the certificate (short form) which is printed from the system data. One of these is a known person, her name is on the short form copy that was released. She certified that the data was as it existed in the computer system (in 2007). 11. The Hawaaian state official who made a copy of the long form and certified it as a true copy (this is also a known person). 12. At least one other Hawaaian official who saw the original at that time. 13. Obama and Obama's counsel, who saw the certified form long form (And everyone who saw the short form as a sealed and signed document, before the long form copies were released). 14. The press at the 2011 press conference, who saw a certified copy, and who were given photocopies of the certified copy. 15. The general public, who have seen a scan of the BC, as released on the internet. There is *no* evidence that has been presented that this copy is different, other than differences normal in some scans from originals, from the certified, signed, and sealed copy. 16. There may be others. It's unlikely that there are *no others.* Has, for example, Michelle Obama seen the certified copy? But I can say someone who has probably not seen it. The National Archivist. It is not a Presidential Record. It is not covered, at all, by the laws governing Presidential Records. The certified copies are the personal property of Obama. Give me the name of one single individual who have claimed to have seen Obama's original BC. Okay, Ill have to look. http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf was released under the seal of the Governor of Hawai'i, Neil Abercrombie. Hawai'i Health Director Loretta Fuddy Dr. Alvin Onaka, the State Registrar Will two names do instead of the one requested? Those two people explicitly acknowledged witnessing the
Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
I don't think he is lying. If someone sees a flying unicorn, even if it is not there, is that person lying? He is just living in a hallucination. 2012/12/28 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com Anyone who cares can read this entire post and see that Jojo has lied, and is continuing to lie, about what is actually in this post. Jojo attempts, below, to avoid this by introducing new or separate arguments. They are highly unlikely to be true. But they are all avoiding the obvbous. He lied about the document that is copied here and he continues to lie about it. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
At 09:55 AM 12/28/2012, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Axil, etc. This is Vortex, and you guys are certainly free to speculate at the drop of a hat or a popper. However, I'm also free to note that trying to figure out what is going on with Russ's popper, when we have just about zero information about anything unusual happening, it like trying to see what is in a closed black box in a coal mine at midnight. And no light. What's in there? *Anything* could be in there. Boo! If Russ really wants to do something useful, he can start measuring the work done by that piston. It should be simple to do. Since it is reported that the thing doesn't heat up, no calorimetry is necessary, at least not yet. One regular characteristic of Papp engines is that they reportedly don't generate much, if any, heat. Just, allegedly, work. Okay, how much work with hou much energy input. A popper is perfect for testing this, avoiding all the complications of cycling engines. If there is no excess power in a single cycle, why would we even be interested in seeing if power can be sustained?
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Does anyone know how to get William Beaty to manage the conduct on this list? He is probably busy with the holiday season stuff. He'll get around to responding by and by. Frankly, I don't understand why people are worked up about this. Maybe it is just me floating along in a mellow decongestant stupor but I don't see a problem. (Pseudoephedrine decongestants are the second best medical mood enhancers, after alcohol. You get a sense why they make such potent illegal drugs.) This is why God gave us e-mail filters. You click a few times and presto, the messages and Joro Jaro vanish into the cybernetic continuum. It is one of the great features of life in the 21st century. Better than book clubs in 1965 when you could not escape the boors. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 11:04 AM 12/28/2012, David Roberson wrote: I do not think that the photon goes at a speed less than light speed for any observer. From a far off observer it just appears to be red shifted from its beginning point. I guess you might say that from our far off point of view, it never had any extra energy in the first place because we never saw any extra. The same is true for everyone as you say so perhaps my idea is not possible. This is correct. If the photon originates from at or inside the event horizon, under some definitions, it cannot escape to the outside, so red shift is irrelevant. These explanations say that every path from the originating point leads closer to the singularity, no path takes the photon -- even for a moment, away from the singularity. There are no outward bound light paths. The explanation that make an analogy with escape velocity leads to a different picture, and perhaps that is why they are deprecated. From outside the event horizon, the photon will be red-shifted, depending on how far outside. The red shift will increase with distance, but the rate of increase will decrease with distance. A red-shifted photon has originated from outside the event horizon. If oriented directly outbound, it will continue on that path forever, at the speed of light.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
The only problem with filters is that they are a blunt tool so when someone you're filtering out is in a thread that you're interested in you can miss out on something useful. Sure, you might assume that there's really not much you'll miss by using filtering but it's not really an optimal solution. What's needed is a moderator who can enforce adult, civilized behavior. [m] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Does anyone know how to get William Beaty to manage the conduct on this list? He is probably busy with the holiday season stuff. He'll get around to responding by and by. Frankly, I don't understand why people are worked up about this. Maybe it is just me floating along in a mellow decongestant stupor but I don't see a problem. (Pseudoephedrine decongestants are the second best medical mood enhancers, after alcohol. You get a sense why they make such potent illegal drugs.) This is why God gave us e-mail filters. You click a few times and presto, the messages and Joro Jaro vanish into the cybernetic continuum. It is one of the great features of life in the 21st century. Better than book clubs in 1965 when you could not escape the boors. - Jed
[Vo]:List integrity
Original subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age The original subject was off-topic. List management is not, so I've created a new header, please keep discussion here on the subject of the header. At 02:31 PM 12/28/2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: If Beaty isn't willing to moderate and push the OT stuff over to Vortex B then someone (Jed?) should seriously consider starting an alternative list. I'm worried about Bill. There is an alternate list that has been used for backup when vortex-l is down (because the service provider, eskimo.com, has often had problems) It's http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/vortex-l-backup If we do set up or use an alternate list, I have some suggestions for governance. It's kind of a special interest of mine, and I see a list owner as a kind of trustee for the community, and there should be more than one owner, for security. Owners do not have to be active, but they should be available when needed. Active moderation would be done by moderators who generally do not have the priviliege to name or remove moderators, nor to delete the group. Moderators *may* or *may not* have the ability to delete posts from the archive, but would routinely have the ability to put members on moderation or to ban them, subject to appeal. So moderators can warn, and can back up a warning with action, if needed. These are positions that require integrity and some level of skill, but mostly the former.
Re: [Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
You gotta love those Italians! Italian government officials and MPs have made pro-cold fusion statements in the past, going back many years. When the history of cold fusion is written, Italy's government and scientists will get a lot of credit. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Mr. Beaty's absence should not be be taken as a form of passive approval of Mr. Jaro's posting content
At 03:05 PM 12/28/2012, leaking pen wrote: I second the nomination. I would think, though, that leaving this group as is, and more of a forced transfer of off topic replies to the new, off topic, group (which we already have, vortex b), and constant offenders have their posts put on a per approval basis. Absent the list owner, at this point, there is no way to force replies, or list members, to a new group, and I, for one, would not paticipate in that group. No reason to do so, no public benefit. Anyone who wants to discuss any topic with me is free to email me privately, and the default is that I reply to such. As to any purpose I had in responding to Jaro, it's been served, I see no reason to continue that, not now, anyway.
Re: [Vo]:Digital information storage in DNA
Genetics experts stopped calling the non-coding regions 'junk' some time ago. They might say something like 'what used to be called junk DNA'. I have been wondering whether certain aspects of the information that defines an organism is not contained in the DNA, but instead certain specific regions of the DNA are able to 'tune into' information from previous generations of the organism which have similar sequences. Nigel On 28/12/2012 01:38, David Roberson wrote: It is funny when I hear of junk DNA as described by the genetics experts. Why choose to call something unknown as junk instead of just admitting that it is not understood? Reminds me of the old theory about the amount of one's brain that is being used. I just wish people would lay out the facts that they know and not judge the unknowns. I guess some would call LENR junk physics! Dave
Re: [Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
To what do you attribute Italy's relatively-functional immune system? On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: You gotta love those Italians! Italian government officials and MPs have made pro-cold fusion statements in the past, going back many years. When the history of cold fusion is written, Italy's government and scientists will get a lot of credit. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To what do you attribute Italy's relatively-functional immune system? A laid-back attitude. I mean it. They don't take themselves as seriously as we do. They know their institutions are far from perfect. The U.S. is burdened by too much self-respect. We take ourselves too seriously. We have too much high regard for out place in the world and our institutions. (Other than the Congress.) All this blather about being the best place on earth leads us to act like the world's policeman, and to imagine that our universities and scientists are the best of the best. When experts at the DoE or the major journals say that cold fusion does not exist, ordinary people give their opinions far too much credibility. Too much respect. Japanese people tend to be even worse in that regard. They have waa-a-a-y too much respect for experts. The fact is, many scientists are incompetent screw-ups. It is the human condition. Farmers, programmers, stock brokers, bank presidents, army generals . . . people everywhere make mistakes. Half the population is below average, as an army general was once horrified to discover. I think the Italians are more aware of that. It helps that they lost several wars in a row. It helps to be a smaller country, less full of yourself. See the novel Catch 22 for details. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
Your opinion is most valuable. What do you recommend in terms of experimental detail? I posted previously that an accelerometer installed on the piston would provide the finest grained experimental detail. A graphic profile of the piston’s movement plotted against time could be converted to energy output by integrating the area under the piston’s movement curve. The force of gravity must also be accounted for in this calculation. An accelerometer may also provide data that can be used to determine torque that may be expected from an engine application. There is also a compression of gas(air) above the piston that acts as a shock absorber so that the piston does not hit the metal stops at the top of the piston rod. This compression of the gas can be measured by a pressure sensor whose output can also be plotted against time. This data can also be converted to energy using the area under the curse technique. There is also the feedback current that must be considered in the detailed energy output accounting. This current must be captured and measured in terms of joules of electric energy output from the popper. Heat output can be neglected. Please list in detail how to set this experiment up including recommendations that include but not limited to associated mathematical formulae, experimental hardware, interconnect data bus structures, software, firmware, and related graphical and computational packages. Take pains to minimize costs but insure that the experimental techniques used in experimentation are air tight and will satisfy the most skeptical critics of over unity energy technology. If you have the time, please include an experimental test plan that includes experimental setup and explanation of associated results. Cheers: Axil On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 09:55 AM 12/28/2012, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Axil, etc. This is Vortex, and you guys are certainly free to speculate at the drop of a hat or a popper. However, I'm also free to note that trying to figure out what is going on with Russ's popper, when we have just about zero information about anything unusual happening, it like trying to see what is in a closed black box in a coal mine at midnight. And no light. What's in there? *Anything* could be in there. Boo! If Russ really wants to do something useful, he can start measuring the work done by that piston. It should be simple to do. Since it is reported that the thing doesn't heat up, no calorimetry is necessary, at least not yet. One regular characteristic of Papp engines is that they reportedly don't generate much, if any, heat. Just, allegedly, work. Okay, how much work with hou much energy input. A popper is perfect for testing this, avoiding all the complications of cycling engines. If there is no excess power in a single cycle, why would we even be interested in seeing if power can be sustained?
Re: [Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
That's one way to view it. An alternative that isn't necessarily exclusive: I recall holding a public debate at the Ruben H. Fleet Science Center in San Diego during the 1980s -- before the collapse of the Soviet Union -- regarding NASA's role in launch services vs the fledgling private launch services. During the debate an engineer from General Dynamics who had worked on the Atlas got up and declared that the reason the US government couldn't get its launch services running as well as the communists was that the communists executed corrupt bureaucrats, and that was what was needed if the public sector was going to be in charge of launch services. In short: The commies were good at communism because they had no private sector to tax, so they had to make communism work. The us public sector is the worst of both worlds because it has a private sector to tax and so doesn't have to execute it corrupt bureaucrats to stay alive. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To what do you attribute Italy's relatively-functional immune system? A laid-back attitude. I mean it. They don't take themselves as seriously as we do. They know their institutions are far from perfect. The U.S. is burdened by too much self-respect. We take ourselves too seriously. We have too much high regard for out place in the world and our institutions. (Other than the Congress.) All this blather about being the best place on earth leads us to act like the world's policeman, and to imagine that our universities and scientists are the best of the best. When experts at the DoE or the major journals say that cold fusion does not exist, ordinary people give their opinions far too much credibility. Too much respect. Japanese people tend to be even worse in that regard. They have waa-a-a-y too much respect for experts. The fact is, many scientists are incompetent screw-ups. It is the human condition. Farmers, programmers, stock brokers, bank presidents, army generals . . . people everywhere make mistakes. Half the population is below average, as an army general was once horrified to discover. I think the Italians are more aware of that. It helps that they lost several wars in a row. It helps to be a smaller country, less full of yourself. See the novel Catch 22 for details. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Heat output can be neglected. I strongly disagree. We hear a lot about how the temperature doesn't rise in any degree approaching what one would expect from the joule input but one must recall that this is one of the most anomalous claims about the Papp system.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I think a lot of the reasoning about photons, above, is wrong. The red shift has nothing to do with gravity, only the relative velocity of the photon source relative to the observer. If an event just outside the event horizon of a black hole emits a photon, an observer at rest relative to the black hole will observe no red shift regardless the strength of the black hole's gravitational field. If the observer then accelerates away from the black hole, similar photons emitted from the same source will appear to be red shifted. It's entirely an observational effect. There is no loss of energy from the photon and no need to store anything anywhere. Jeff On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond the event horizon, heading outward, it is never red shifted to zero. (I was incorrect about energy, though. Energy is lost in climbing the gravitational well, stored as potential energy from gravity.) What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. I didn't think that. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other than red shift. This is a good question for the astronomers. Perhaps they are seeing these things and are not aware of it. It is hard to imagine that there are not a large number of these out there unless they tend to explode before reaching this size range. It might not be a bad idea for the astronomers to take a second look at what is referred to as failed stars or other unusual thermal objects. I doubt they would miss this. But maybe.
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
At 07:34 PM 12/28/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Your opinion is most valuable. What do you recommend in terms of experimental detail? I posted previously that an accelerometer installed on the piston would provide the finest grained experimental detail. Yes. I think I said the same. But if we know the mass of the piston, and if a video is taken with a screen behind the piston with calibrations on it, and time references, it might be simpler. The higher speed the video, the better. If a computer data aquisition system is being used, the motion could be captured in any of various ways. From the mass and motion, in time, of the pistion, one can calculate the force and the weight. If the piston is held back by a spring, that force can be calibrated, etc. A graphic profile of the piston's movement plotted against time could be converted to energy output by integrating the area under the piston's movement curve. The force of gravity must also be accounted for in this calculation. Yes. Or the experiment is run horizontally, as in the advertised popper kits. A spring is then used to retard the motion. That spring can be calibrated so that the force exerted for every point of motion is known. An accelerometer may also provide data that can be used to determine torque that may be expected from an engine application. That's premature, not really necessary until it is time to design an engine, which could be way down the road, and is speculative. The original purpose of poppers was to compare the results for different formulations of the operating gas. Great idea. But without knowing the actual energy released, one doesn't know if there is any effect of value. All one is getting is relatively good ways of creating an apparent artifact. Measure the energy, one will see if one is actually optimizing a real energy release, or merely getting more efficient at transferring energy from excitation to piston motion. There is also a compression of gas(air) above the piston that acts as a shock absorber so that the piston does not hit the metal stops at the top of the piston rod. That's all what would be considered. That's a relatively complicated way to do it. A simpler way is to make the piston heavy enough -- put weight on the top -- so that it doesn't reach the stops. Let it free fly, only deaccelerated by gravity -- or a spring that is calibrated. This compression of the gas can be measured by a pressure sensor whose output can also be plotted against time. This data can also be converted to energy using the area under the curse technique. Yes. There is also the feedback current that must be considered in the detailed energy output accounting. This current must be captured and measured in terms of joules of electric energy output from the popper. Yes. The basic claim, though, is that there is *lots* of energy being released. How accurate one must be in measuring input power, then, is a question. The more accurate, the better, and lots of Free Energy demonstrations seem to depend on faulty estimations of input power. The Naudin MAGH study is a totally blatant example. Really, really embarrassing, but the *most* embarrassing thing is that Naudin never said, Oops! What was I thinking! Sorry guys! I won't do that again! Pons and Fleischmann screwed up on neutron measurments, but they retracted their report. That's what a real scientist does when they make a mistake. They correct the record, as soon as possible. Since a real scientist is *trying to falsify their conclusions*, they will eagerly investigate it. Yes, human beings often do otherwise, but ... that's when we are not scientists, we have gotten trapped in belief. Heat output can be neglected. Apparently. If really accurate measurements are to be made, some measurement of heat might be needed. But are these experiments worth the effort? The default with claims like this should be No. *However,* it is a community obligation to leave the door open to the unknown, so some level of credence should be allowed any at-all-credible report. I'll note that Feynman spent his time to attend a Papp demonstration. Unfortunately, he seems to have been a bit too eager to debunk. Tragically so. In a way, I don't blame him, and I blame Papp for making such a dangerous engine, with no protection against power failure. Papp was crazy, part of the problem. Please list in detail how to set this experiment up including recommendations that include but not limited to associated mathematical formulae, experimental hardware, interconnect data bus structures, software, firmware, and related graphical and computational packages. Take pains to minimize costs but insure that the experimental techniques used in experimentation are air tight and will satisfy the most skeptical critics of over unity energy technology. Aw, c'mon, Axil. Russ could take some simple measures that would provide basic data. It
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
At 07:48 PM 12/28/2012, James Bowery wrote: On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Axil Axil mailto:janap...@gmail.comjanap...@gmail.com wrote: Heat output can be neglected. I strongly disagree. We hear a lot about how the temperature doesn't rise in any degree approaching what one would expect from the joule input but one must recall that this is one of the most anomalous claims about the Papp system. While theoretically this is true, if it is also true that there is *little* heat from a Papp engine, and if excess energy is shown by a reasonably careful analysis of the motion of a popper piston, without considering heat, heat generation would only *add* to the excess energy. Whether there is any need to look for heat, then, is a subsidiary question. Is there excess energy, expressed in piston motion? If there is such energy, then we will want to know quantitative data about heat, it's part of attempting to understand the process. And if there is no such energy, putting a lot of work into dotting the i's and crossing the t's is probably a waste of time. If there is no excess energy, expressed in motion, then the lack of heat is *not* an anomaly. Why would we expect heat? I'm looking at heuristics here. What approaches will most efficiently resolve claims?
Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water
On Dec 28, 2012, at 20:25, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Whether there is any need to look for heat, then, is a subsidiary question. Is there excess energy, expressed in piston motion? This makes sense. Look for first order effects, then zero in on second order effects if any first order ones can be established. We would be assuming, here, that there is no significant endotherm. Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 08:11 PM 12/28/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I think a lot of the reasoning about photons, above, is wrong. The red shift has nothing to do with gravity, only the relative velocity of the photon source relative to the observer. Eek. Apparently not. If an event just outside the event horizon of a black hole emits a photon, an observer at rest relative to the black hole will observe no red shift regardless the strength of the black hole's gravitational field. Apprently this is not so, and it directly contradicts many sources that might be expected to get it right. The red shift is not a motion-related doppler shift, it is a gravitational shift, purely. If the observer then accelerates away from the black hole, similar photons emitted from the same source will appear to be red shifted. It's entirely an observational effect. There is no loss of energy from the photon and no need to store anything anywhere. This topic is a continual temptation to me to stick my foot in my mouth. What I'm getting is that there is a lot I don't understand about black holes and particularly about the event horizon. Essentially, I've felt that I have a decent understanding of special relativity, but general relativity is another animal, and gravitational effects on light are an aspect of general relativity. The event horizon, it is being said, is the point at which no path exists for the photon to escape, to travel away from the singularity. This is caused by the intensity of the gravitational field, which is a fixed value at the event horizon. That's the value that allows no escape. Just outide the event horizon, the photon may escape, but does not escape unscathed. It loses energy climbing the gravitational potential field. It red-shifts as it loses energy. (That energy is being converted to potential energy, just as with any object with momentum away from a gravity source loses momentum, trading it for potential energy.) The puzzle to me here is the statement made that an object travelling toward the black hole will not only be seen through a red shift, but will also appear to slow, such that it never passes the event horizon, it just gets closer, but more and more slowly, until it is red-shifted out of observability. It is alleged that this takes forever. And I don't understand that. To resolve this, part of what I'll need to look at are the equations for gravitational red shift, or the effect of gravity on light. Then I can look at what would happen with light emitted outside the event horizon (which I presume will fall out of the gravitational equations), and can construct a thought-experiment for an object approaching the event horizon, which was the original problem here. It *looks* to me like some material that is popularly stated about black holes and event horizons might be incorrect, but I certainly don't know enough to claim that with any clarity. I *do* imagine that I know enough to deny that the red shift being talked about here is the ordinary doppler shift, i.e., due to the relative velocity between the source and the reference frame.
Re: [Vo]:LENR was mentioned again in the Italian parliament last week
Another factor to consider is the influence of the english language publications Nature and Scientific American. They have less infleunce non-english speaking communities so their dim views on LENR carry less weight in non-english speaking nations like Italy. Harry On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:46 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: That's one way to view it. An alternative that isn't necessarily exclusive: I recall holding a public debate at the Ruben H. Fleet Science Center in San Diego during the 1980s -- before the collapse of the Soviet Union -- regarding NASA's role in launch services vs the fledgling private launch services. During the debate an engineer from General Dynamics who had worked on the Atlas got up and declared that the reason the US government couldn't get its launch services running as well as the communists was that the communists executed corrupt bureaucrats, and that was what was needed if the public sector was going to be in charge of launch services. In short: The commies were good at communism because they had no private sector to tax, so they had to make communism work. The us public sector is the worst of both worlds because it has a private sector to tax and so doesn't have to execute it corrupt bureaucrats to stay alive. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To what do you attribute Italy's relatively-functional immune system? A laid-back attitude. I mean it. They don't take themselves as seriously as we do. They know their institutions are far from perfect. The U.S. is burdened by too much self-respect. We take ourselves too seriously. We have too much high regard for out place in the world and our institutions. (Other than the Congress.) All this blather about being the best place on earth leads us to act like the world's policeman, and to imagine that our universities and scientists are the best of the best. When experts at the DoE or the major journals say that cold fusion does not exist, ordinary people give their opinions far too much credibility. Too much respect. Japanese people tend to be even worse in that regard. They have waa-a-a-y too much respect for experts. The fact is, many scientists are incompetent screw-ups. It is the human condition. Farmers, programmers, stock brokers, bank presidents, army generals . . . people everywhere make mistakes. Half the population is below average, as an army general was once horrified to discover. I think the Italians are more aware of that. It helps that they lost several wars in a row. It helps to be a smaller country, less full of yourself. See the novel Catch 22 for details. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Yes, please Jed, why don't you start an alternative list. Isn't that what I've been calling for all along. That way, you can flood it with off-topic posts and make it into a social club. Leave the science in Vortex-L. Play in your own list. Jojo - Original Message - From: Mark Gibbs To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Does anyone know how to get William Beaty to manage the conduct on this list? If you look at the recent messages on this list (http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/maillist.html) the ration of science to squabbling is ridiculous and mots of the traffic comes from just a few people going seriously off topic. If Beaty isn't willing to moderate and push the OT stuff over to Vortex B then someone (Jed?) should seriously consider starting an alternative list. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Of course there's a lot of bad mojo. How would you feel if you are insulted at every turn? by people ignorant of the real situation. First Lomax, then SVJ, then Rocha, then Craig, then Walker then Jouni then Peter and now Mark. All openning their comments with insults. ( I have not included those people who made mild insults like you.) I am capable of discussing with civility as I have with David and a few others. If people want to insult, an insult is what they will receive back. Jojo - Original Message - From: ChemE Stewart To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Unfortunately I sense lots of bad mojo behind many of the posts in this exchange On Friday, December 28, 2012, Mark Gibbs wrote: Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is the matter with you people? Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly) responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter has been sucked in ... It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts. Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die. [mg] On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated. Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate. And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance. Jojo PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything particularly nasty with my real life example. - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age Dear Jojo, Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy. Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the first proverb here: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions except yours and so on but all these are only illusions and errors. Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely. It would e
[Vo]:(OT) epidemic and endemic
It seems, OT-ing has become both epidemic and endemic for Vortex. This is caused probably by a relatively dead/slack season in/for core LENR. This is also relatively OT Greatest Inventions: 2012 and 1913 Editions http://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2012/12/greatest-inventions-2012-and-1913-editions/ but it raises the question if/when will enter LENR such lists? I am asking it seriously not rhetorically- I wait for some answers/opinions Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
