Mark, has it occured to you or to Peter or to others that it is precisely these
kinds of biased hurtful insults that cause me to lash out at you, Peter and
Lomax.
I am capable of discussing rationally with civility as many in this list can
attest. But I will not suffer insults like this. Please consider this as my
final warning.
If you have investigated this properly, you will conclude that I was discussing
calmly and politely with some members here before Lomax, SVJ and others started
their round of insults. Please be objective before you start mouthing off.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Gibbs
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Pig breeding, Birthers, attacks on Islam, attacks on each other ... what is
the matter with you people?
Jojo throws out blatant nonsense that isn't intended to achieve anything
constructive and that only the most generous would treat as reasonable
discussion and everyone rises to the bait. Abd, to his credit, (mostly)
responds to Jojo politely, Jojo responds with more outrageous assertions and
endless ad hominem attacks, and the circle of ridiculousness repeats. Now Peter
has been sucked in ...
It's one thing to have an off-topic discussion but quite another when a list
is hijacked by little else besides off-topic posts.
Really, the Vortex list-Mom needs to manage this list a whole lot better if
it's to have any relevance to its original goal ... this is why lists die.
[mg]
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Jojo Jaro <jth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Peter, I consider this an insult. To the best of my recollection this is
your 4th insult to me. In all that time, I have not retaliated.
Please refrain from this behavior; unless you want me to retaliate.
And please, do not use you response to me as an excuse to promote your site
again. It's bad taste. One does not go to other people's site to promote and
recruit members. There is no insult intended with this. But if you feel that
this is an attack, I will now apologize in advance.
Jojo
PS. Peter seems to be offended that I used a real life example to
illustrate the fallacies of Lomax. I don't believe I have written anything
particularly nasty with my real life example.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Gluck
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Dear Jojo,
Even in my weirdest dreams I have not imagined
that one day I will read about the sexual reproductive life of Sus scrofa
domestica on Vortex a site dedicated to new energy.
Pigs have not much to do with Vortex see the
first proverb here:
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/two-proverbs-trying-to-support-what-i.html
I thought you are a spammer prozelytizing, attacking your re-elected
President, trying to demonstrate that Darwin was a poor stupid individual, you
don't care for religious freedom and for respect for the other 11,499 religions
except yours and so on but all these are only
illusions and errors.
Practice shows you are like Jack London's inevitable white
man:unstoppable and it is useless to ban you or to boycott you, you are the
fatum of Vortex. I have serious doubts Vortex will survive intellectually and
will not be converted in an anything goes Forum. Be happy, I am accepting your
presence and all I wish is that some people will not forget LENR completely.
It would e reasonable if you do not comment to this message.
Peter
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Jojo Jaro <jth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just to correct Lomax's lies from actual experience.
I raise sows in my farm. When the piglets grow up to become gilts
(teenage female pigs that are virgins are called gilts.), they exhibit the
equivalent of what we would call menstrual cycle. They show their first
estrus. If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, the pregnancy will normally
not take hold and the gilts will exhibit another estrus on their next cycle
about 21 days later. The gilts are not sexually mature despite the obvious
occurence of the estrus cycle. On occasions where a pregnancy takes hold, you
will end up with radically fewer piglets born and smaller piglets born. A
normal sow pregnancy is about 10-12 piglets and about 1-2 kgs of piglet weight.
If you mate a gilt on her first estrus, on average you will get less than 3
piglets with about 1/3 lbs. piglets (notice 1-2 kg is 2-5 lbs for a normal
pregnancy. A first cycle pregnancy is 1/3 lbs piglet.) Very very small
piglets that will not normally survive to weaning age. What I am saying is
documented by pig breeders everywhere so no one who is honest will claim I am
lying about this. In fact, if you read pig breeding books, they would
recommend that you wait until the second estrus to mate that gilt. This my
friends are facts.
In fact, in fact, in fact. The older the gilt is when you first mate
her, the more and bigger your piglets. This is easy to understand. An older
gilt's body is more mature and will support more piglets compared to a young
gilt on her first cycle.
The same is true with human girls. Everyone agrees that exhibiting
menstrual cycle at 9 years of age is unusually early for a little girl. Normal
menstrual age is about 11-12, most even don't cycle until they are 14. Ask
any doctor. Now here comes Lomax and argues that a 9 year old little girl is
sexually mature because she has had her first cycle. Apparently, she was not
because we have no documented pregnancy of A'isha when she was 9. Her body was
simply not mature enough to carry a full term baby to delivery, much like a
young gilt. My friends, despite what Lomax would like you to believe, nature
and experience tells us an early menstruating girl of 9 is clearly not sexually
mature.
BTW, Lomax claims that a little girl's mammary glands would develop if
she has a baby. Apparently, Lomax has not seen mammary glands of first cycle
gilts who became pregnant. They are not developed despite having piglets. It
contains little milk. Piglets of young gilts need to have supplemental milk.
This my friends is the truth of the normal order of things. But Lomax, twist
it, to justify the actions of his retrograde HOLEY prophet. (Lomax still has
not caught on why I spell Holy - HOLEY. Contrary to what Lomax would like to
believe, I do know how to spell Holy. LOL ...)
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax"
<a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
At 10:01 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
What are you suggesting lomax? That age is uncertain whether she
was 9 or 10. Either way, what muhammed practiced was abhorrent and retrograde.
No, *Jojo* is abhorrent and retrograde. That's because he's now. What
Muhammad did wasn't abhorrent, because nobody hated it. Then. It wasn't
retrograde, either, it was not odd or strange or unusual.
If A'isha has had her first menstrual cycle, does that mean she is
a sexually mature woman.
Yes. That's what the word means. It does not mean that no further
maturation can occur. It means that she is capable of becoming a mother.
Lomax seems to believe this and asking vorticians to swallow this.
No, I don't care what Vorticians think, but I'm not seeing any
support, here, for Jojo's viciousness.
OK, show of hands, which of us with daughters 9 or 10 years old,
that have had their first mentrual cycle that we would consider to be sexually
mature.
Hand up. That is, if I knew that my daugher had her first period, I'd
know that she was sexually mature. That has consequences.
For pete's sake. These little girls do not have fully developed
mammary glands yet, and Lomax thinks they are sexually mature. This is the
corruption of islam for all to see.
The glands will work if she gets pregnant. Jojo is making silly
arguments. The issue is not today's girls, and the conditions girls face today.
The issue is Jojo's claim that was was done *then* was "abhorrent and
retrograde" *then*.
And we don't now the age. Some sources conclude that Ayesha was much
older.
OK, show of hands, which of the following sources does one consider
more reliable.
Reliable for what?
Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari vs. wikipedia and Internet blogs.
For hadith, Muslim and Bukhari. For general information on Islam,
hands down, Wikipedia. Muslim and Bukhari are not manuals of Islam. They are
collections of stories, which require interpretation. They are, in Wikipedia
terms, primary sources. Use with care.
One of us cited Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari indicating a
testimony from A'isha herself that intercourse occured when she was 9 or
thereabouts.
No. Sahih Muslim has an account attributed to Ayesha that she was
taken to the Prophet's house when she was nine. Not that they had intercourse.
However, that can reasonably be inferred.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle
(may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was
taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her;
and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
There is no isnad (which is typical for my edition of Sahih Muslim).
Muslim narrates a series of traditions on Ayesha, which are unattributed. He
did not hear this from Ayesha!
Lomax cited Internet Blogs to say that A'isha was a different age.
I didn't say she was a different age. One page gave arguments she
was. I was citing this to show the range of opinion among Muslims. It wasn't a
blog.
Which of us is more credible with better evidence? Lomax seems
to think that his evidence is stronger because he writes lengthy tiresome
essays to confuse the issue. If you are buying it, you have the right to be
stupid enough to be deceive by lies.
What Jojo is effectively lying about would be that I claimed Ayesha
was *not* nine. I pointed to evidence that she was, and evidence that she
wasn't. I wrote that I don't know how old she was, but that she was "sexually
mature," regardless. Jojo wants to quibble on that, but a sexually mature woman
is not "barely out of diapers," which he's said over and over, unless there is
some problem!
I write lengthy essays because I actually do research and report it,
and I discuss the issues. Jojo hates that. He just wants to toss his mud and be
done with it. Someone who actually checks his claims? Horrors!
OK, show of hands, which of us would follow our neighbors to commit
an abhorrent act.
*What abhorrent act?* Jojo has never been specific. And nobody here
is proposing that girls be married at nine. What I've been saying, though, is
that this *was not an abhorrent act* in the culture, the time and place where
it occurred. Nobody cared about her age, they care about her *maturity*. And
Islamic law, in some places, is still the same. Maturity, by the way, one of
the sources I cited noted, includes her reasoning and sound judgment. But
that's dicta, in a way, because only one aspect of marriageability is being
considered here.
Heck, if all our neighbors practiced beastiality, does that make
our practice of it OK?
Straw man argument. And nobody has claimed that a practice is "OK".
Rather, if a practice is universally accepted in a time, we cannot condemn
those who practiced it, it was their culture. The practice itself could be
awful, but obviously was not from theirs. If we are going to judge individuals
for doing what was common, we might become interested in *how* they did that
common practice. Were they abusive? Ayesha shows *no sign of being an abused
girl* She lived to be ninety years old, she was very vocal, we have a lot of
material from her. None of it resembles what women abused as children are like.
And I've known many such women.
What Jojo has just done is to equate a sexual relationship between a
man and a woman, consensual, open, respected by the entire society, considered
unremarkable in the culture, and not even considered a problem by his
*enemies*, later, until very modern times, with bestiality.
Lomax and a few others seems to think that because all the tribes
surrounding muhammed practice child molestation of 9 year old little girls,
that muhammed's practice of it was OK.
Of course molestation is not okay. Neither is genital mutilation. Nor
bestiality, but if Jojo really wants to fantasize about bestiality, well, it's
a free country. Just don't do it, Jojo, it's generally illegal.
If you are buying it, you have the right to be stupid enough to be
deceive by lies.
'Nuff said. I can never convince a retrograde moon god worshipper
about his abhorrent acts.
Jojo doesn't seem to realize that he would never convince *anyone*
about *anything* the way that he "evangelizes." It flat doesn't work. That's
what's is so funny about that Moon God cartoon. It's an amazing fantasy. The
Christian is somehow visiting a mosque with his daughter, and says to her that
the people praying are praying to their Moon God.
Poor girl, father like that. Now *there* is child abuse!
A man praying overhears him and pretty much threatens to kill him.
But he patienty explains that he's been decieved. The Allah that he thougth was
the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all between, the Merciful, the
Eternal Truth, is *actually* a Moon God.
The fantasty here is that this angry Muslim didn't just kill him!
People who start out like that man in the mosque aren't thoughtful. They won't
listen to knowledgeable Muslims. I've stood up to these people, and it was
touch and go! This is what is really funny: the man turns into a determined
martyr, he'll go and tell his people the "truth" about the Moon God. If his
people are like he was, they would indeed kill him, and the father knows that.
He thinks it's a good thing. The guy will become a martyr.
For a Moon God myth. Made up. I don't care if the Moon God *were*
called Allah, God, Supreme Being, whatever, I don't worship a Moon God, and
neither does any Muslim.
The message? Well, the guy is out to sell comic books. The probable
message is "We are better than them. They are stupid, ignorant, and violent."
But there is another message: All you have to do to carry the Gospel
to Muslims is tell them that they are worshipping a Moon God. They will fall
over and become lambs. Surely they are eager for thie Valuable Information.
Looks like Jojo is trying that one here. Hey, Jojo, has this *ever*
worked? The Moon God trope is pretty new. I've seen the Pedophile Prophet one
for years. Never saw it work. The only thing that I've seen drive Muslims away
from Islam has been other Muslims. Some can be really, really awful.
But it doesn't work to attack Muslims, even bad ones. What might work
is to *actually behave like a Christian.* Be friendly, supportive, kind. Help
people. Take some advice from the Bible, have a soft voice and loud ears.
It might take some practice.
--
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
