Re: [Vo]:Solution to the Pandemic! And the next one...

[Charles]

I had imagined every adult did this, but it turns out to be cultural:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340050986_The_Impact_of_Cross-Cultural_Differences_in_Handwashing_Patterns_on_the_COVID-19_Outbreak_Magnitude

On 21/04/2020 21:50, ChemE Stewart wrote:

How about just wash with soap :)

Re: [Vo]:The Origin of SARS-CoV-2

[Charles]

The following paper from Chinese researchers indicates that  the genome 
of SARS-CoV-2 is '96% identical to the bat coronavirus BatCoV RaTG13':


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6485/1444

Presumably, any plausible hypothesis as to bat origin of SARS-CoV-2 has 
to explain the 4% of differences in the genome.



On 16/04/2020 04:20, Terry Blanton wrote:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-8DUCy9E3a7kr5zcynsu_404kjVRetPk

Re: [Vo]:Active Denial at 95 GHz

[Charles]

Thanks. The claim in the marketing blurb of 'penetrating the skin to a 
depth of only about 1/64th of an inch', if approximately accurate, 
suggests a highly efficient dielectric heating effect, then. Compare 
with lower frequencies: for example, a mobile phone at around 2 GHz will 
heat the brain and eyeball as well as the ear, while at 95 GHz it seems 
that most of the energy is converted to heat in a thin slice of skin, 
presumably with a much more concentrated cellular impact.


On 09/04/2020 00:20, Jones Beene wrote:
The energy transfer is via dielectric heating of fats and water, just 
as in a microwave oven.

[Vo]:Active Denial at 95 GHz

[Charles]

"Active Denial Technology uses radio frequency millimeter waves at a 
frequency of 95 gigahertz. Traveling at the speed of light, the 
millimeter wave directed energy engages the subject, penetrating the 
skin to a depth of only about 1/64th of an inch, or the equivalent of 
three sheets of paper. The beam produces an intolerable heating 
sensation, compelling the targeted individual to instinctively move."


https://jnlwp.defense.gov/Press-Room/Fact-Sheets/Article-View-Fact-sheets/Article/577989/active-denial-technology/

My question is how does this beam transmit its energy to the skin: 
resonance, kinetic energy?


Potential interest here is 5G, using similar frequencies.

Re: [Vo]:Better than N95

[Charles]

Maybe not such a good idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiYbXsIcI7E

On 05/04/2020 00:35, Terry Blanton wrote:
I found an old Hoover HEPA vacuum bag and thought to make a mask.  
Then I Googled the idea.  Nothing new under the sun.  HEPA spec is 300 
nm but test show them effective down to 50 nm (depends on the 
rating).  SARS-CoV-2 is 125 nm.


https://youtu.be/W6d3twpHwis

[Vo]:A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

[Charles]

This paper published in November 2015 appears relevant to the current 
pandemic The authors report on the experimental creation of a chimeric 
virus that could not be neutralised by vaccine; they include various US 
epidemiologists, the FDA and 2 Chinese researchers from Wuhan - 
presumably the latter supplied the horseshoe bat virus that was 
subsequently modified to a more infectious form in the lab.


*Abstract*

The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 
(SARS-CoV) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV underscores 
the threat of cross-species transmission events leading to outbreaks in 
humans. Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, 
SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat 
populations^1  . Using 
the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system^2 
 , we generated and 
characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus 
SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone. The results indicate that 
group 2b viruses encoding the SHC014 spike in a wild-type backbone can 
efficiently use multiple orthologs of the SARS receptor human 
angiotensin converting enzyme II (ACE2), replicate efficiently in 
primary human airway cells and achieve /in vitro/ titers equivalent to 
epidemic strains of SARS-CoV. Additionally, /in vivo/ experiments 
demonstrate replication of the chimeric virus in mouse lung with notable 
pathogenesis. Evaluation of available SARS-based immune-therapeutic and 
prophylactic modalities revealed poor efficacy; both monoclonal antibody 
and vaccine approaches failed to neutralize and protect from infection 
with CoVs using the novel spike protein. On the basis of these findings, 
we synthetically re-derived an infectious full-length SHC014 recombinant 
virus and demonstrate robust viral replication both /in vitro/ and /in 
vivo/. Our work suggests a potential risk of SARS-CoV re-emergence from 
viruses currently circulating in bat populations.


The full paper is here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985#auth-1

[Vo]:COVID19 Scenario Explorer

[Charles]

'We are a research group at theBiozentrum, University of Basel, 
Switzerland . We are broadly 
interested in evolution, ecology, and population genetics with a focus 
on rapidly evolving pathogens such as HIV, influenza virus, or 
pathogenic bacteria.'


https://neherlab.org/covid19/

[Vo]:Stephen Hawking obituary

[Charles]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/14/stephen-hawking-obituary

Re: [Vo]:OT (really) - Re: How to filter messages

[Charles]

A former East German I once talked to at a conference banquet opined 
that in both democratic and autocratic systems similar personality types 
will end up as leaders, but in a democracy there is a mechanism to 
remove them. With that in mind, the historical Tibetan approach of 
picking, at random, an alert looking child and educating them with the 
skills needed to be a leader, at least reduces the probability of ending 
up with a rogue individual.


On 26/07/2017 19:50, Aldo Maggi wrote:

and, to be
frank, it is difficult to achieve in democracy because People, as I
told before, tend to act in in a childish way (very selfish),

RE: [Vo]:mainstream physics paper bout the Hot Cat, co-author Andrea Rossi

[Charles Francis]

In Italy the title ‘Dr’ does not imply a PhD or medical degree, but only a 
basic (undergraduate) degree. 

 

From: a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net] 
Sent: 07 April 2015 22:20
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:mainstream physics paper bout the Hot Cat, co-author Andrea 
Rossi

 

Jones Beene,
You are deliberately misleading about Rossi getting his degree on-line.  He 
got his PhD from Milan University.   He did take an on-line course in chemical 
engineering later, in order to learn about that.  Seems to be a reasonable 
thing to do.

You make much of the lack of theory for how the Li7 gathers a proton.  The 
authors admit they don't know.  BUT the idea of the Be splitting into two 
alphas and not emitting gamma radiation suggests to me that it is worth looking 
for a mechanism for the Li to gain the necessary proton.  I assume no one knows 
at present. 

RE: [Vo]:Off Topic: Flu Season

[Charles Francis]

Seems the human-infectious form of Ebola was patented back in 2010 by a US 
government lab (CDC): http://www.google.com/patents/CA2741523A1?cl=en

 

Claims:

 

1. An isolated hEbola virus comprising a nucleic acid molecule...

 

2. An isolated hEbola virus having Centers for Disease Control Deposit 
Accession No.

200706291.

 

And likewise any vaccine that might be forthcoming:

 

3. The hEbola virus of any one of claims 1 or 2 which is killed.

 

4. The hEbola virus of claim 1 which is an attenuated hEbola virus.

 

5. The virus of claim 4 wherein at least one property of the attenuated hEbola 
virus is reduced from among infectivity, replication ability, protein synthesis 
ability, assembling ability or cytopathic effect.

 

 

From: James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014 01:08
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]:Off Topic: Flu Season

 

Sorry but since none of the usual policy experts want to touch this with a 
ten-foot poll, it is shaping up to have some features in common with other 
civilization-impacting failures of policy experts with which this list is 
all-too familiar:

Early symptoms of Ebola are flu-like and it is contagious during these 
flu-like symptoms. Now ... consider the fact that flu season is upon us. But 
you know what's _really_ frightening about this? Not one of the goddamn idiot 
authorities has even mentioned, let alone assessed, this confounding 
situation's impact on public health containment measures. 

 

Now THAT'S frightening!

Read the CDC's guidelines on monitoring and movement of persons with  
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html
 exposure and tell me their guidelines work for a country in the throes of 
massive incidence of flu-like symptoms.

RE: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

[Charles Francis]

Vladimir Putin today seemed to attribute the horrendous recent events in
Eastern Ghouta to the Syrian rebels and, with that in mind, the following
Youtube video from last year, apparently showing Syrian Jihadists  testing
self-produced chemical weapons on rabbits, is relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-6O-gApVrU

 

Some of the ingredients appear routine, others I can't readily identify, and
most originate from Tekkim, a Turkish company. Perhaps a competent chemist
on this group can make an assessment as to what sort of substance might have
been used here?

 

Regards

Charles

 

From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of Alain Sepeda
Sent: 06 September 2013 09:55
To: Vortex List
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

 

At last the sad truth start to reach mainstream media.

 

It is a civil war, a reciprocal bath of blood and hate, sectarian,
desperate, where each side know he will be exterminated like cockroach if he
lose.

 

the only solution of foreign invasion by regional forces and separation of
the communities until they stop hating each others... looks like Yugoslavia
in worst.

RE: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

[Charles Francis]

If Obama gets his way, I’m afraid there’ll be many more stories like this one:

 

http://tinyurl.com/max5tmw

 

 

Charles

 

From: Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 05 September 2013 06:38
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

 

The piece by Polk was interesting.   

RE: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

[Charles Francis]

Could this man be the reason?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/04/francois-hollande-photo-news-ag
encies

-Original Message-
From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] 
Sent: 03 September 2013 23:44
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]Shocking Story That Could Derail Attack on Syria

The French public doesn't believe the Syria story either --

RE: [Vo]:Syrian gas attacks...

[Charles Francis]

What sense indeed? http://rt.com/news/syria-investigate-un-chemical-116/

-Original Message-
From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] 
Sent: 28 August 2013 20:27
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Syrian gas attacks...

Also relevant - From Scientific American today:

'Is It Too Late to Determine Which Chemical Weapons Were Used in Syria?
Probably not, but it's better to act sooner than later'

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=too-late-chemical-weapons-s
yria

What sense does it make, then, to delay the UN inspectors?

RE: [Vo]:A paper about my LENR work with carbonyl Ni

[Charles Francis]

On the off-chance, you might try adding potassium carbonate to your mix,
given the info mentioned here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84258.html

 

Potassium carbonate (and sodium bicarb?) also seem to behave energetically
in the video shown here:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84774.html

 

 

From: Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 03 August 2013 02:11
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:A paper about my LENR work with carbonyl Ni

 

Greetings fellow Vorts,

 

While at ICCF, I expressed my feelings that there would be no controlling
patent on the material that makes LENR work. There has been so much open
speculation that has now all become part of prior art. Additionally, without
a theory, you will not be able to identify the workarounds and any claims
are likely to be easily worked around in the end. I expect the valuable
patents to be on the apparatus that follows - the devices that do the work
and meet peoples needs. To help make that a self-fulfilling prophesy, I
decided some time ago to openly share what I am doing in Ni-H materials.

 

At ICCF I had the opportunity to show slides of my Ni-H LENR work to many
people. A common request was for something written about my work. So while
traveling home I put together a paper describing my work. It is not peer
reviewed and I would be happy to get comments back. 

 

The paper is on my Google drive at:

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2Qzl0WC1ldW1MMUU/edit?usp=sharing



Please let me know if this doesn't work. 

 

I learned a number of lessons in this phase and I am currently working on
the next pass of improvements to my test system in particular.

 

Regards, Bob Higgins

[Vo]:Renzo Mondaini - Kervran reactions

[Charles Francis]

Just watched this fascinating series of videos by Renzo Mondaini, kindly
dubbed to English from the Italian: 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEceEHgaXoU

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MymFcb9U1Ck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MymFcb9U1Ck

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47MslfkdYQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoPGLcmC8S4

 

It's interesting that he involved the university of Bolognia (Forcardi?) and
that like Mills and Defkalion (reportedly) he's using Potassium Carbonate -
see my post on this compound from two weeks ago: 

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg84258.html

 

 

Charles

[Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - English Demo

[Charles Francis]

Test is looking professional so far and promising. One concern for me though
is that after all that careful flow calibration, they switched the water
flow from bucket to sink - thereby changing the system under test. For
example, by restricting water flow using a hidden control valve, they might
cause the system to run much hotter even though the pump is doing the same
work and could therefore report a much greater flow than is actually the
case. Obviously, the wires need to be cut at the end of the test to check
for sub-wires (or coax) that could deceive the clamp on meters. There is a
labyrinth of redundant wires that should be disconnected if possible. Not
happy about the interruption of the video stream, hope the observers check
for tampering during this time. 

 

Charles

[Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

[Charles Francis]

Shows COP of  5

 

RE: [Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

[Charles Francis]

http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-ita


-Original Message-
From: Craig [mailto:cchayniepub...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 22 July 2013 13:49
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

Can you provide a link? I don't have the link to the demo.

Craig

On 07/22/2013 07:13 AM, Charles Francis wrote:

 Shows COP of  5

  

RE: [Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

[Charles Francis]

There's recordings below in various parts - sound not working at first.

 

From: Daniel Rocha [mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 22 July 2013 14:26
To: John Milstone
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

 

It's offline...

 

2013/7/22 Charles Francis fran...@datacomm.ch

http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-ita



-Original Message-
From: Craig [mailto:cchayniepub...@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 July 2013 13:49
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Green Technologies - Italian Demo

Can you provide a link? I don't have the link to the demo.

Craig

On 07/22/2013 07:13 AM, Charles Francis wrote:

 Shows COP of  5










 

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ

danieldi...@gmail.com

[Vo]:Potassium Carbonate

[Charles Francis]

Likely this has been discussed on list before, but here goes:

 

Concerning his recent patent update, Andrea Rossi apparently removed claims
to the catalyst (re: the Cat in E-Cat) and it was suggested that this might
have to do with prior use of his secret ingredient (i.e., perhaps he
borrowed the recipe from elsewhere or inadvertently rediscovered it). 

 

I just noticed that anomalous heat production from Potassium Carbonate in
combination with atomic hydrogen and nickel is mentioned in this
unclassified 1994 military report:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

(the authors, incidentally, seem to be those today linked with BlackLight
Power)

 

Moreover, purportedly leaked notes from a 2012 Defkalion visit again mention
Potassium Carbonate:
http://ecatnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Summary-of-Visit-to-Defkalion
.pdf

 

So is Potassium Carbonate used in the Rossi/Defkalion devices? And is
powdering nickel sufficiently innovative to be protected by a Rossi patent?
Would the Potassium Carbonate/Nickel/Hydrogen combination for energy
production be under patent somewhere else or is it in the public domain? 

 

Charles

 

Re: [Vo]:Potassium Carbonate

[Charles Francis]

The mentioned NASA replication (Tech Memorandum 107167) is available here: 

http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/19960016952_1996035672.p
df

 

Incidentally, an extract of a NASA presentation following their trip to see
Rossi's E-Cat can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djBIWTsnwjY

 

 

From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 11 July 2013 14:54
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Potassium Carbonate

 

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 8:34 AM, DJ Cravens djcrav...@hotmail.com wrote:

Use of K carbonate with Ni for generation of excess heat:
 
You might want to check the work of Thermocore circa 1994 and the NASA
replication (Tech Memorandum 107167).   

 

The document he references from Jed's site is the Thermacore report. 

 

RE: [Vo]:Skeptics still out in force in the mass media

[Charles Francis]

Jed

 

In the comments you wrote: Also the effects are not weak. Heat has been
detected at 100 W with no input by Toyota and others, lasting up to 3 months
continuously, and tritium has been measured at 10E18 times background.

 

I've read at least one Toyota LENR paper, but can't recall the power
measurements you quote. I'd appreciate a link if available.

 

Charles 

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 08 July 2013 23:39
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Skeptics still out in force in the mass media

 

If you doubt that skeptics still dominate mass media discussions of cold
fusion, see the comment section following this article about global warming.
See the comment I posted, and the responses to it:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/07/08/global_warming_wall_stre
et_journal_article_cites_bad_evidence_draws_wrong.html

It might as well still be 1989.

It is ironic that most of these people commenting think they are in favor of
science because they oppose the global warming deniers.

The last comment is one that I have heard countless times. It is a
get-out-jail card that allows you to ignore any breakthrough:

I'll believe in cold fusion when I see 10KW of electric power out of a cold
fusion power generator. That's net power out, so you have to subtract out
all the power that holds the thing together and the energy required to make
the fuel.  . . .
 
Clalming that a technology that's not proven to work is going to 'solve'
anything is ludicrous.

Note that I did not say it is going to solve it, I said it might.

 

Anyway, I saw a similar argument the other day. Someone writing about robots
said they are no threat to employment because I can hire a Mexican for $10
an hour to do garden work and you can't point to any company that makes a
robot that could do that at any price. The issue is not what technology can
do today, but what it will probably be capable of doing in the future.
Robots are improving rapidly. They can drive cars in California traffic.
There is no longer any reason to think they will not be able to do
agriculture or gardening cheaper than $10 an hour soon. Cheaper than $1.
Eventually, $1 per day.

 

- Jed

 

[Vo]:OT: More Cheese Power?

[Charles Francis]

http://www.itn.co.uk/And%20Finally/78885/dynamo-levitates-on-the-side-of-a-d
ouble-decker-bus

[Vo]:Unidentified subject!

[Charles Francis]

C4FBE7.7050100
@aim.com
In-Reply-To: 51c4fbe7.7050...@aim.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]: About the March test
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:53:34 +0200
Message-ID: 006901ce6f25$fa8a6510$ef9f2f30$@ch
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In that video, a cable is shown with a central core and outer sheath, and a
similar topology can be found in shielded cables for audio or radio
frequency purposes. The cheese power trick might deploy this type of cable
or alternatively insulated wires side by side in a common sheaf or even a
bundle of varnished wires.  

 

Charles

 

From: Rob Dingemans [mailto:manonbrid...@aim.com] 
Sent: 22 June 2013 03:21
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: About the March test

 

Hi,

On 21-6-2013 21:49, John Milstone wrote:

Again, it's clear from the full description that they were looking for
additional WIRES.  There is nothing about checking what was IN the wires.


Just to borrow a phrase from Jones: This is complete bull crap !

It seems you are completely clueless about how wires are manufactured.
The manufacturing process does NOT allow for hidden wires to be included.

For some enlighting information see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6m1Uii5v2I

Kind regards,

Rob




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[Vo]:Molecular Impact Steam Technology

[Charles Francis]

Another Florida free energy start-up: http://www.mistenergysystems.com

 

Any thoughts on their claims and the supposed Hydrogen Bond Energy?
http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/Hydrogen_Bond_Explosions.pdf

 

Just as a lit match releases the energy contained in gasoline, our hyper
speed impact releases the energy contained in Hydrogen Bonds.

 

 

Charles

RE: [Vo]:Netherlands food exports

[Charles Francis]

So in 2012 each Dutch agricultural worker generated an average personal
export revenue of 112'276 Euros, in addition to the local produce for the
Dutch market. 

 

Charles

 

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 09 June 2013 23:15
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Netherlands food exports


The total value of Dutch agricultural exports was 75.4 billion euros in
2012.

 

 

[Vo]:Anomalous input energy

[Charles Francis]

A document HIGH TEMPERATURE E-CAT MODULE Test of July 16th can be viewed
here:

 

http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/105322688-Penon4-1.pdf

 

Unlike the paper of Levi et al., it doesn't appear to have been prepared for
the research community, but is perhaps meant as an internal report for use
by commercial parties interested in evaluating E-Cat technology.  How and
why it entered the public domain is unknown to me. 

 

The remarks on Page 11 are of interest in view of considerations on Vortex-l
regarding possible anomalous electrical inputs:

 

E-Cat power supply was effected through a control box panel provided with a
kWh meter which did not allow separate evaluation of the voltage and current
supplied to the module. For this reason, a voltmeter and a clamp ammeter
were installed downstream from the control box, so as to monitor power data
independently from the panel meter. Due to the fact that panel meter data
were found to be quite discordant from those measured by the voltmeter and
the ammeter, it was decided to ignore the former and use only the voltmeter
and ammeter data recorded manually in the course of the test.

 

The nature of the discordance is apparently not described.

 

The authors add a further remark on page 15 On the other hand, power
consumption measurements were less than optimal, because of the reported
problem with the control panel; ...

 

 

Charles

RE: [Vo]:new hypothesis to confute regarding input energy in Ecat test

[Charles Francis]

Why expect 2-phase customisation for a relatively low-priority scientific
experiment? 3-phase design make sense in the context of the concurrent
high-priority finalisation, testing and shipping of a purported 1 MW device,
which at a claimed COP of 6 would need an electrical input of 167 KW.

 

Incidentally, these shipping photos supplied by Rossi appear to show Levi
and the test setup (and the presence of an armed security guard):
http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/e-cat-shipping-pictures-posted-on-the-jonp
/

 

Charles

 

From: Joshua Cude [mailto:joshua.c...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 30 May 2013 19:38
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:new hypothesis to confute regarding input energy in Ecat
test

 

 The 3-phase looks more like obfuscation to me.

 

 

 

[Vo]:Unidentified subject!

[Charles Francis]

k0iwFQ32HjA@ma
il.gmail.com
In-Reply-To: 
cadzc6n9pielm6_xd4qakmtt-lmozaq8xmplp3obk0iwfq32...@mail.gmail.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 12:50:32 +0200
Message-ID: 001601ce5dec$ac655470$052ffd50$@ch
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Content-Language: en-gb

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Assuming it's all bogus, how does one account for the various positive
reports of SPAWAR and Mitsubishi?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc

 

http://www.slashdocs.com/pxiyk/transmutation-reactions-induced-by-deuterium-
permeation-through-nano-structured-pd-multilayer-thin-film.html

 

 

Charles

 

 

From: Joshua Cude [mailto:joshua.c...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 31 May 2013 08:59
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question 

 

It is about time for you to give the bogosity of LENR a fair chance. All
your thinking starts from the assumption that it's real. You'll never make
progress that way.

 


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[Vo]:Unidentified subject!

[Charles Francis]

k0iwFQ32HjA@ma
il.gmail.com
In-Reply-To: 
cadzc6n9pielm6_xd4qakmtt-lmozaq8xmplp3obk0iwfq32...@mail.gmail.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 12:55:08 +0200
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(Sorry my previous post was somehow corrupted, so I resend:)

 

 

Assuming it's all bogus, how does one account for the various positive
reports of SPAWAR and Mitsubishi?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc

 

http://www.slashdocs.com/pxiyk/transmutation-reactions-induced-by-deuterium-
permeation-through-nano-structured-pd-multilayer-thin-film.html

 

 

Charles

 

 

 

From: Joshua Cude [mailto:joshua.c...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 31 May 2013 08:59
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question

 

 

It is about time for you to give the bogosity of LENR a fair chance. All
your thinking starts from the assumption that it's real. You'll never make
progress that way.

 


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RE: [Vo]:On deception

[Charles Francis]

A weakness regarding the recent Ecat paper by Levi et al. is the apparent
absence of an EE. In a future test they would ideally include a power
engineer along with thermal image and data logging specialists.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 31 May 2013 18:46
To: Yamali Yamali
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:On deception

Well, I graduated from Georgia Tech in 1977 with an EE, am a registered
professional engineer and manage a group of mostly EE consulting engineers
and I agree with Jed.

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de
wrote:

 Jed wrote: I do not think it takes long for an electrical engineer to 
 conclude that there is no possibility of fraud in these tests.

 I bet you won't find any EE with any experience in the business who 
 would sign such a statement.

RE: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question

[Charles Francis]

Surely the control box is an integral part of the Rossi system under test?
Why then insist on internal sub-system measurements? Why not analyse the
Rossi system cleanly by just considering external inputs and outputs without
regard to internals? After all, an engineer doesn't break open an unknown
transistor or integrated circuit to determine its characteristics. 

 

Charles

 

From: Andrew [mailto:andrew...@att.net] 
Sent: 29 May 2013 01:59
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question

 

NO, NO, NO.

 

The cable I'm referring to, which I've described three times now, os the
other one - the one between the control box and the device.

 

Good Grief.

- Original Message - 

From: MarkI-ZeroPoint mailto:zeropo...@charter.net  

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 

Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:36 PM

Subject: RE: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question

 

I think there is some confusion on the issue of cables, what cables, and
'bringing your own cables' and I want to make sure we are all on the same
page.  correct any misunderstandings in the following so we all understand
the details and importance of each.

 

First, the cable Andrew is referring to is the one from the AC wall plug to
the control box.  The REASON why Andrew and others are asking if Rossi would
allow the scientists to use their own AC power cable is because of the
diagram on this page which is immediately following the pie chart of
Natural Nickel Composition:

 
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/21/the-e-cat-is-back-and-peo
ple-are-still-falling-for-it/

The diagram is by Peter Thieberger, a particle physicist.  It shows how some
'rewiring ' of a power cable can be done so that it will register NO current
on any meters monitoring the separate wires of the power cable.  I do not
know if this scenario is one that the test team thought about, but if
someone can present them with the diagram and find out if their measurements
can eliminate this possibility, that'd be great.  If they did not account
for this scenario, then we need to make sure they are aware of it so the
next test can eliminate this possibility of fraud.

 

Second, when someone (Rossi) said,  . they could bring their own cables.,
I got the impression that this was only referring to the cables which attach
the measurement instruments to the system (e.g., the cables from the Power
Analyzer to the AC power cable), NOT the AC power cable.  So let's not get
confused as to 'what cables' are being referred to.

 

-Mark Iverson

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 11:28 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question

 

Andrew andrew...@att.net wrote:

 

The cable is what connects the control box to the device.  It appears from
the report that they did not examine it for anomalies.

 

They did not examine it. That would reveal trade secrets, as noted in the
report.

 

 

  So, are the researchers free to replace it with one of their own, or not?

 

Of course not. They do not even have the specs for it.

 

What happens in the cable and controller is irrelevant to the energy
balance.

 

Despite the discussions here, there is no way what occurs in the controller
box or the cable can steal electricity without the meters detecting it.
That would violate the conservation of energy. When electric power is
consumed, either the amperage or the voltage must rise.

 

You might hide input power from some types of meter by changing the output
from the electric plug. However, there has been a great of nonsense about
that here, as well. You can't do that merely by raising voltage. When
voltage exceeds the meter's limits, the meter does not ignore that. It
displays a message such as  or OUT OF RANGE.

 

 

The March dummy calibration run, according to the report, involved placing
voltage probes across the device while the control box was switched on in
non-pulsed mode.

 

You are right. It says:

 

Resistor coil power consumption was measured by placing the instrument in
single-phase directly on the coil input cables, and was found to be, on
average, about 810 W. From this one derives that the power consumption of
the control box was approximately = 

110-120 W.

 

In this case they were using the coils as joule heaters in a conventional
step-by-step calibration.

 

 

So your statement that At no point did they measure output from the
controller contradicts that. Please clarify.

 

I got that wrong.

 

- Jed

 

[Vo]:The First Image Ever of a Hydrogen Atom's Orbital Structure

[Charles Francis]

http://io9.com/the-first-image-ever-of-a-hydrogen-atoms-orbital-struc-509684
901

 

[Vo]:Peter Thieberger's “Power Magic”

[Charles Francis]

Having followed the various interesting arguments here relating to the PCE-830, 
DC bias (e.g., diode + smoothing capacitor), high frequency AC etc., as 
conceivable anomalous input energies, I today revisited the intriguing “Power 
Magic” diagram from Peter Thieberger: 

 

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/21/the-e-cat-is-back-and-people-are-still-falling-for-it/

 

It appears that this ingenious wiring and switching arrangement would 
successfully bamboozle any clamp-on ammeter while providing correct voltage 
readings, and, via a suitable three state control cycle scenario 
(on/“off”/disconnect), could yield time domain response curves consistent with 
Plot 7 / Plot 8 in the recent Levi et al. technical report on the E-Cat HT. Am 
I correct? If so what technical measures might eliminate this source of 
uncertainty in a future experiment? 

 

Apologies if the diagram has already been discussed. 

 

 

Charles

Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of Defkalion‏ - Revisited

[Charles Hope]

You've already told her to shut up several times, so that's repetitive and 
boring as well. 




On Jan 4, 2012, at 13:48, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net 
wrote:

 Mary Yugo stated/asked,
 “Same response to the same repetition of absolute nonsense about Rossi and 
 Defkalion.  You always seem to object to my response but not to the inanity 
 that spawned it.  Why do you think that is?”
  
 That’s easy… and I’ve explained it to you before.
 I have stated my reservations (more than once) about the whole affair 6 
 months ago;  and because I try to abide by the guidelines of this forum, I 
 don’t want to repeat what I have already stated.  What part of that don’t you 
 understand?
 -Mark
  
 From: Mary Yugo [mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 10:36 AM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:A competent observer's assessment of 
 Defkalion‏ - Revisited
  
  
 
 2012/1/4 Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
 Mary Yugo stated, for the millionth time,
 “A much better theory is that, as Rossi says, they have nothing to show.”
  
 Same old tired repetition, despite numerous requests that you avoid it.  You 
 just never learn…
 Is there really a brain behind the name or is it just a very poor 
 implementation of Artificial Intelligence responding to vortex posts?  If AI, 
 then the programmer forgot to #include learn.h
 -Mark
 
 Same response to the same repetition of absolute nonsense about Rossi and 
 Defkalion.  You always seem to object to my response but not to the inanity 
 that spawned it.  Why do you think that is?
  

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion described how they got Rossi's formula

[Charles Hope]

What about Jed Rothwell's secret source who just came back with glowing reviews?



On Jan 3, 2012, at 4:35, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 On 2 January 2012 04:35, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
 orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 Not having direct access I think it's difficult for any of us to determine 
 whether DGT or Rossi is ahead in the game. DGT strikes me as better 
 organized, company wise. The organization is probably being run like a 
 disciplined corporation.
 
 I cannot understand where did you get such an impression. Defkalion is still 
 nothing but an unpopular discussion forum in the Internet. Nothing else. 
 There is only one spokes person, Xanthoulis, who is making bold claims, 
 without any real proofs.
 
 Everyone who has personal knowledge on Defkalion, does not trust them, and 
 that is just two individuals in the whole world, i.e. Rossi and Stremmenos. 
 There is only one known person who has visited Defkalion »laboratory» and 
 he/she came back with an impression that 'I would not want to work with these 
 guys'. (or something similar)
 
 There is nothing real ever presented on the company. And every scarce 
 empirical evidence (a statements from three individuals) what we have, points 
 into direction that Defkalion is a phony company. For me this kind of 
 determination, what is the real nature of Defkalion, is very simple to do, 
 because I trust Rossi.
 
–Jouni
 

Re: [Vo]:Out for a while

[Charles Hope]

Enjoy your trip. Alaska must be quite an experience this time of year. I intend 
to have pondered your papers when you have returned. 

 

On Jan 2, 2012, at 11:37, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote:

 I have to take care of a rental in Anchorage that was just vacated.  Makes me 
 a little nervous considering Gene Mallove's  history with that kind of thing.
 
 I will not be able to follow things here for a while.
 
 Best regards,
 
 Horace Heffner
 http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
 
 
 
 

[Vo]:How I propose to encode math in vortex discussions

[Charles HOPE]

(You'll have to visit the URL at the end to follow the post's links)


For a surprisingly long time, communicating rich mathematical formulas has
been difficult on the Web, in e-mail, or in plain text discussion groups.
There are two tools that take the pain out of this process.
Writing

Codecogs offers a very nice equation
editorhttp://codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php,
with a complete set of WYSIWYG buttons that operate a workspace which
builds an equation in LaTeX, while rendering a graphic image in real-time.
The resulting image can be exported in various graphic formats, or the
LaTeX can be copied to your clipboard.
Reading Avital Oliver wrote a lightweight browser plug-in for Firefox which
renders LaTeX equations, called TEX THE WORLD http://thewe.net/tex/. It
has since been ported
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mbfninnbhfepghkkcgdnmfmhhbjmhggnto
Google Chrome. It scans every web page for equations between [; and ;] and
renders them automatically.

Together these make it possible to easily produce LaTeX formulas, already
legible to scientific professionals and able to survive the plainest of
ASCII environments, and to view them as rich formulas if rendered through a
modern web browser.




http://luminoustop.typepad.com/charles_hope_and_the_lumi/2012/01/how-to-read-and-write-mathematics-on-the-internet-including-web-based-e-mail-.html




-- 
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

Re: [Vo]:Spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC)

[Charles HOPE]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote:




 The deflated state electron, pre-fusion, is not below ground state energy.
   It is a degenerate form of the ground state, or whatever state the
 hydrogen nucleus and associated electron occupy in the lattice.




How can the ground state be degenerate?  Do you have any arguments using
bra-ket notation?





 Preferable to what for describing what?



Isn't the Takahashi approach preferable to the deflation fusion approach
because it maintains the standard model? The only reference to deflated
hydrogen comes from vortex.



 Huge numbers of atoms are involved in heavy element transmutation.  Can
 you imagine Bockris' surprise when he found them? there was no prior
 indication that such energetic events were taking place.



I see.  There really are several phenomena all confusingly anomalous!




 I would guess people want more math. It's hard to convey over email, but I
 have a solution for that I'll write up this weekend.



 I do not think the problem is a lack of math. The problem is that I have
 not explained the processes with enough simplicity that a child can follow
 them.  I sincerely doubt that anyone on this list, at any rate, wants or
 needs more math for convincing.  Math only obscures the underlying
 concepts.



I've never heard a scientist express this sentiment before.  For me, I find
rather the opposite.  My eyes glaze over when confronted by paragraph after
paragraph of prose, without equations to really explain what's going on. I
don't think children should understand this material!




-- 
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

Re: [Vo]:Spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC)

[Charles Hope]

What is Takahashi analogue to the deflated electron?



On Dec 30, 2011, at 13:21, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your theory is just too similar to what I imagine that should happen in Phase 
 III that I get confused. You are correct in your stuff, but you don't use 
 many equations, mostly your intuition. So, I get lost reading your papers. 
 
 Right, to be clear. a-e. Just show me where I can find in your papers. I will 
 surely read it, because I just could start to figure out anything from you 
 only when I had a similar idea.
 
 2011/12/30 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net
 What part do you not understand:
 
a.  the mechanism of trapping of the post fusion nuclear electron
b.  the low energy state of the post fusion nuclear electron
c.  the mechanism by which the trapped electron absorbs the fusion energy
d.  why the fusion energy is not sufficient to eject the post fusion 
 nuclear electron
e.  the ability of the post fusion trapped nuclear electron to radiate
 
 Just to be clear, I am talking about my theory here, deflation fusion, not 
 any other. I think these things have been described in my articles, but often 
 when I look back I find material that was posted but not included in any 
 article, but which I had assumed was included in an article.   Sometimes it 
 takes me months to find things, and in the interim I think maybe they were 
 figments of my imagination.
 
 
 On Dec 30, 2011, at 8:47 AM, Daniel Rocha wrote:
 
 I didn't understand this part from the intermediate nucleus vicinity in 
 small increments by a trapped electron.  
 
 2011/12/30 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net
 
 On Dec 30, 2011, at 7:21 AM, Daniel Rocha wrote:
 
 Oh, nice! That's why he also congratulated you in that report. I didn't go 
 to the talk or take part in the CMNS list, so I cannot know. I am happy 
 that I got to similar conclusions as you did independently. Several people 
 reaching the same conclusions, in similar ways, is a sign of things going 
 into the right direction.
 
 But I am still not sure how to get rid of the gamma rays.
 
 
 You don't have to worry about big gammas if there are none produced.  You 
 don't have to worry about getting rid of gamma rays if they are released 
 from the intermediate nucleus vicinity in small increments by a trapped 
 electron. 
 
 Best regards,
 
 Horace Heffner
 http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com
 

Re: [Vo]:Spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC)

[Charles HOPE]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote:


 On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:05 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:

  Horace,

 Thanks for the comment.

 What is needed are some toy models with some simple simulations.
 I will check out your theory.
 Do you believe any new physics is required
 - or does standard QM suffice?
 I am getting pretty boggled by the complexity of it all.

 LP



 I think it is presently not computationally feasible to analyze the
 deflated state using QM. This is due to the extreme relativistic effects
 combined with magnetic effects.



I'm not sure why quantum mechanics couldn't analyze this state, but I don't
believe that the concept of deflation is mainstream physics, is it?

Also, what are your criticisms of Takahashi?

Re: [Vo]:Spontaneous parametric down-conversion (SPDC)

[Charles Hope]

On Dec 29, 2011, at 20:09, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote:

 
 On Dec 29, 2011, at 3:08 PM, Charles HOPE wrote:
 
 
 
 On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net 
 wrote:
 
 On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:05 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:
 
 Horace,
 
 Thanks for the comment.
 
 What is needed are some toy models with some simple simulations.
 I will check out your theory.
 Do you believe any new physics is required
 - or does standard QM suffice?
 I am getting pretty boggled by the complexity of it all.
 
 LP
 
 
 I think it is presently not computationally feasible to analyze the deflated 
 state using QM. This is due to the extreme relativistic effects combined 
 with magnetic effects.
 
 
 I'm not sure why quantum mechanics couldn't analyze this state,
 
 I think  ultimately it can.  I know of no analytic method available, other 
 than possibly FEA.   Naudt's relativistic orbital description has gained 
 little acceptance, and neither has Mulenberg's.   The addition of spin 
 coupling magnetic considerations  puts the complexity over the top, as far as 
 I know.  I think the key now is to focus on the gestalt, experimental 
 implications, and hope detailed analysis follows as experiment dictates.  
 Also, as an amateur with limited life expectancy and education, this is the 
 only choice I have. 
 
 
 but I don't believe that the concept of deflation is mainstream physics, is 
 it?
 
 No, deflation fusion is not mainstream, it is my concept.  However, the 
 deflated state itself can be, was, described using conventional physics.


How so? It sounds like an electron level below the ground state, forbidden by 
QM. 



  
 
 
 Also, what are your criticisms of Takahashi?
 
 I see no use in criticizing Takahashi.   I gather it is culturally difficult 
 for him, especially coming from an amateur like me.  No need to be even more 
 socially insensitive than I already am.  


Sorry, I didn't mean criticism of him personally, but his theory. Doesn't it 
have less New Physics, and so should be preferable?




 
 In general, I see the large number of variations of D+D --  intermediate 
 product -- 4He theories, even my common sense X + 2D -- X + 4He nuclear 
 catalysis idea, as failing to describe the most important and mysterious 
 aspects of cold fusion, namely heavy element transmutation without the 
 abundant high energy signatures that should be observed, or even the massive 
 heat that should be observed if conservation of mass-energy is necessary.


I thought I understood you a few days ago to mean that the energy difference 
(23MeV?) typically seen as a gamma ray, here is seen as heat. That was my 
interpretation when you said the heat was the correct quantity to the helium. 


  Any such theory that is adequate to do this can not assume neutrons precede 
 the cold fusion reactions, because neither neutron activation nor radioactive 
 byproducts are observed except in very small amounts that do not correspond 
 to the overall transmutation rate.  I think heavy element transmutation is 
 where the essence of the field lies.  It is unfortunate so much thinking is 
 focused on D+D.  Perhaps it is assumed that since D+D is difficult to 
 explain, that X+H or X+D  is far more difficult or impossible to explain, or 
 even does not exist.  This I think is far from the truth. The most critical 
 impediments are tunneling  distance and tunneling energy.  These are 
 impediments overcome by the shorter distance to lattice atoms from lattice 
 sites, and the net energy gain to be had from the tunneling of deflated state 
 hydrogen.  Heavy element transmutation is far more credible and probable to 
 me than direct hydrogen + hydrogen fusion. Perhaps the latter does not even 
 happen to any significant degree.  The lack of conservation of energy, both 
 on the positive and negative sides, is explained by the trapped electron 
 concept, which is also not conventional thinking, but rather part of the 
 deflation fusion concept.  The trapped electron can kinetically absorb the 
 initial EM pulse of the strong nuclear reaction, radiate in small increments, 
 and be involved in follow-on weak reactions with greatly elevated 
 probabilities due to extended lingering time.  In some cases it may help 
 induce fission.   Understanding the trapping mechanism in the first place, 
 once tunneling is accepted, is high school physics.  Understanding how the 
 electron can escape without a weak reaction, however, takes some 
 understanding of zero point energy. 
 
 My theory is really just common sense.  I am surprised that it is so 
 non-palatable.  I have assumed that is because my writing skills are so bad 
 and because I need pictures.


I would guess people want more math. It's hard to convey over email, but I have 
a solution for that I'll write up this weekend. 




  I guess I shouldn't be surprised at all though.  Many cold fusion theories 
 are only accepted by their authors

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

How's that? According to what theory?



On Dec 27, 2011, at 11:01, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jouni Valkonen wrote:
 
 If I have understood correctly, the correlation is meaningless, because 
 there are orders of magnitude too tiny amounts of helium compared to 
 observed heat.
 
 
 You do not understand correctly. The amounts of helium are right what they 
 should be compared to observed heat. Please read Miles or McKubre.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

If the helium levels are what they should be compared to the heat, that 
assumes some theory that correlates them. Which theory is that? 



On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:24, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote:

 It is not theory, it is experimental result.  Go to:
 
 http://www.lenr-canr.org/
 
 and enter Miles helium and McKubre helium.
 
 
 On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:00 AM, Charles Hope wrote:
 
 How's that? According to what theory?
 
 
 
 On Dec 27, 2011, at 11:01, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Jouni Valkonen wrote:
 
 If I have understood correctly, the correlation is meaningless, because 
 there are orders of magnitude too tiny amounts of helium compared to 
 observed heat.
 
 
 You do not understand correctly. The amounts of helium are right what they 
 should be compared to observed heat. Please read Miles or McKubre.
 
 - Jed
 
 
 
 Best regards,
 
 Horace Heffner
 http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
 
 
 
 

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles HOPE]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.netwrote:



 The conventional D+D fusion reaction, using mass differences, is:

  D + D -- 4He + 23.847 MeV



OK, I get it. Am I correct that the conventional theory says this reaction
doesn't really occur (it's either 3He + n, or 3H + H), or if it did
somehow, the energy would be emitted as gamma ray, and not as heat?

Re: [Vo]:care less

[Charles HOPE]

http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html




On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 4:57 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

 In reply to  OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson's message of Tue, 27 Dec
 2011
 10:56:38 -0600:
 Hi,

 Quote:
 I think they will care less about any theoretical arguments that

 This is one of my pet peeves with Americans. ;)

 The expression is couldn't care less not could care less.

 couldn't care less is short for It isn't possible for me to care less
 about
 this subject because I don't care about it at all (and I'm sure you don't
 ;)

 If you could care less, then it means you must care about it to some
 extent as
 it is possible for you to care less than the amount that you now do.

 Regards,

 Robin van Spaandonk

 http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html




-- 
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles HOPE]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote:

 At 01:35 AM 12/27/2011, Charles Hope wrote:


  On Dec 26, 2011, at 22:10, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
 wrote:

  Then there is that pesky Coulomb barrier. What I found, though, was
 that there was ample opinion among quantum physicists that it was possible
 that the unexplored conditions of condensed matter just might provide some
 pathway around that, some kind of tunneling or alternate reaction. Recent
 work has actually predicted fusion from a physical arrangement of deuterium
 that *might* be present, quite rarely, in highly loaded PdD. That's using,
 apparently, standard quantum mechanics, but that theory is as yet
 unverified.

 Oh? Citation, please?


 Akito Takahashi, multiple publications, going back into the early 1990s.
 For example, see Study on 4D/Tetrahedral Symmetric Condensate Condensation
 Motion by Non-Linear Langevin Equation, Akito Takahashi and Norio
 Yabuuchi, in Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook, ed Marwan and Krivit,
 American Chemical Society and Oxford University Press, 2008.

 See also the Storms review, which mentions this work, Status of cold
 fusion (2010), Naturwissenschaften, October 2010. For abstract, see
 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/**pubmed/20838756http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20838756,
 for a preprint, see http://www.lenr-canr.org/**
 acrobat/StormsEstatusofcoa.pdfhttp://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEstatusofcoa.pdf



Thank you, I will have a look at these papers.



 As to the opinion of quantum physicists on the possibility of there being
 unknown effects in the solid state, there was a recent revision of a
 textbook on solid state nuclear models, and it has a section on LENR, and
 it turns out that the author had written something pointing to the lack of
 impossibility back around 1990.



I don't quite follow. Do you mean that he first wrote that it was not
impossible, and then was forced to delete the statement?

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

I'm going through Takahashi this week. How could a BEC exist at room 
temperature?




On Dec 27, 2011, at 22:41, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote:

 Bose-Einstein Condensate

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

On Dec 26, 2011, at 16:57, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:


 With Rossi and Defkalion truly acting and writing like clowns, it's not hard 
 to see why there is no major press coverage or much of anything else going 
 on, a full year after the original announcement and hoopla.   And Aussie 
 Guy's extravagant writing and claims, followed by what amounts to backing 
 down on them, doesn't help either.   This stuff gets less credible and more 
 fanciful every day.


What, you don't believe in these cells that reliably produce heat, built by a 
secret research team unknown to this list and without any relation to anything 
in Jed's encyclopedic library, tested by a company flush in cash but that must 
remain anonymous? Geez, what will it take to convince you of anything?

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

On Dec 26, 2011, at 22:10, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote:

 Then there is that pesky Coulomb barrier. What I found, though, was that 
 there was ample opinion among quantum physicists that it was possible that 
 the unexplored conditions of condensed matter just might provide some pathway 
 around that, some kind of tunneling or alternate reaction. Recent work has 
 actually predicted fusion from a physical arrangement of deuterium that 
 *might* be present, quite rarely, in highly loaded PdD. That's using, 
 apparently, standard quantum mechanics, but that theory is as yet unverified.

Oh? Citation, please?

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

Have you yet revealed your name, or the name of your company? 



On Dec 25, 2011, at 19:48, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 I support McKubre's Conservation of Miracles or as I put it, Different 
 Dog, Same Leg Action ;)
 
 AG
 
 
 On 12/26/2011 11:04 AM, Terry Blanton wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
 aussieguy.e...@gmail.com  wrote:
 I can't discuss the cell technology yet. I can say I consider a Ni-H cell as
 a FPE device.
 But it is not.  The reaction is likely unrelated to PdD.
 
 T
 

Re: [Vo]:We have FPE cells

[Charles Hope]

A company that's spent $100k+ on RD, but can't let anyone know they're even in 
the industry? I know marketing operations must sometimes be embargoed but 
that's a bit tough to swallow. 

As far as I'm concerned it's more likely that this email account is a shill 
paid by Rossi to spin tales and lend him credence, or just somebody's idea of a 
laugh.   

 

On Dec 25, 2011, at 20:06, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 All will be revealed when we have the positive uni report on our replicant 
 FPE devices. Until then everyone involved wants to keep a low profile, which 
 I trust you understand.
 
 AG
 
 
 On 12/26/2011 11:24 AM, Charles Hope wrote:
 Have you yet revealed your name, or the name of your company?
 
 
 
 On Dec 25, 2011, at 19:48, Aussie Guy E-Cataussieguy.e...@gmail.com  wrote:
 
 I support McKubre's Conservation of Miracles or as I put it, Different 
 Dog, Same Leg Action ;)
 
 AG
 
 
 On 12/26/2011 11:04 AM, Terry Blanton wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat
 aussieguy.e...@gmail.com   wrote:
 I can't discuss the cell technology yet. I can say I consider a Ni-H cell 
 as
 a FPE device.
 But it is not.  The reaction is likely unrelated to PdD.
 
 T
 
 

Re: [Vo]:A new and baffling Rossi said

[Charles Hope]

The very first act I'd do is run my own home and office from the technology. In 
winter the windows would be wide open to enjoy the fresh air as we roasted in 
the balmy heat pouring from my heaters that were attached to nothing. That's 
just me. 




On Dec 24, 2011, at 12:57, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
 I believe moke up is supposed to be mock-up. I just told Andrea that.
 
 Yes, as I noted, what moke up means is no mystery.  So what does the 
 remainder of the gobbledygook mean?  Is Rossi writing about what he expects 
 Defkalion to do?  What they did?  What?  
 
 Another hallmark of a scam is that the perpetrators act as if the discovery 
 was not as important as it really would be if it were real.  For example, 
 Steorn supposedly discovered a mysterious magnetic interaction that resulted 
 in motors that ran themselves, overcoming friction, and providing free energy 
 beyond that.   But how would a normal person or company act if in possession 
 of such a wonder?  Wouldn't they be extremely active in developing and 
 showing and proving the idea?  Would they not rapidly enlist patent lawyers 
 by the dozens?  Would they not have the concept proven and developed in the 
 largest, best and most effective places?   But none of that ever happened 
 with Steorn.   All they ever did was give demos that were underwhelming and 
 obscure enough so that enthusiasts could interpret them as success.  But they 
 never were.  And there was never any progress and still isn't.  And all their 
 customers, if there were any, were anonymous.  They gave away only one device 
 (I'm not even clear that they really ever did that-- it's sort of a vague 
 recollection at this point) and the recipient said he couldn't make it work. 
 
 Their most prominent point of contact was their forum and what did they do 
 there?  They responded tangentially, incompetently, and weirdly.  At the same 
 time, they attacked their most reasonable critics with sarcasm and threatened 
 to (or actually did) ban them.   They threatened and never brought law suits 
 for libel.   This is precisely Defkalion's behavior currently.  In the area 
 of demonstrations, lectures, and the like, everything with Steorn progressed 
 at a snail pace and none of the activity was appropriate to the uniqueness 
 and grandeur of the discovery, had it been real.  Proponents defended Steorn, 
 postulating that they were concerned about someone stealing the technology.  
 Sound familiar?
 
 This is exactly the pattern Rossi is following.  If Rossi really had a cold 
 fusion reactor on his table top and was using it to provide continuous 
 heating for even one room of his factory, why would he not show it?  Why 
 instead would he have done four hour inadequate demos when he now has a 
 SECOND factory heater that runs CONTINUOUSLY!?   And if the excuse is that he 
 is keeping a low profile, why does he mention these things AT ALL?   
 
 None of this makes sense.  Not Rossi and not Defkalion.  And when things 
 don't add up, you'd better think maybe you're being flummoxed.

Re: [Vo]:Mathematical modeling versus a blacksmith

[Charles Hope]

If you wrap the link in these, it should better survive travel. 

On Dec 24, 2011, at 12:21, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Sometimes email clients are not kindly to links and interpret/parse them 
 badly!
 
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Mathematical modeling versus a blacksmith

[Charles Hope]

Yes, links. Mailers are supposed to preserve links inside the brackets. It's a 
little known fact, but hopefully all the writers of mail software remember it. 



On Dec 24, 2011, at 19:38, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 3:25 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
 I have no trouble with any other posts, only those 2.  I have received many 
 links before with no issues. 
  
 Dave
 
 
 If you send me the bad links, either privately or on the list, I'll rewrite 
 them as tinuyurls.
 
 @Charles: You wrap what in ?  Links or just email addresses.  Never heard 
 of doing that with links.

Re: [Vo]:Mathematical modeling versus a blacksmith

[Charles Hope]

Another secret contact! Why can't your friend create a throwaway hotmail 
account like anyone else?



On Dec 23, 2011, at 12:27, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 7:37 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
 Hello Mary,
  
 I wonder if you could ask your source to explain the bump in the curve
 
 Done, thanks. 

Re: [Vo]:Miley and other professors can only take money from official sources

[Charles Hope]

Tiresome accusations like this ought to be banned from this list. Have you ever 
once seen a paycheck cut for the job of Internet trolling? Really? Really? 
Because it sounds like an awesome part time job, frankly. 




On Dec 19, 2011, at 8:10, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 Cude what does this have to do with FP having been replicated in many labs 
 all over the world? You need to accept that the FPE is real and move on to 
 working out why it happens. Oh BTW you just might apologize to FP for the 
 treatment they received by you and your mates.
 
 Would you please disclose if your income / pay check depends on you not 
 believing the FPE is real and / or working to trash anyone who does? I ask 
 because all you apparently contribute to this list is trashing the FPE.
 
 
 On 12/19/2011 11:23 PM, Joshua Cude wrote:
 
 
 On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com 
 mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
He sure knew what he was getting into. Fleischmann wrote a
lighthearted account of this, quoted in Beaudette's book. It
starts off with Arrhenius in 1883. He was one of the most
important electrochemists in history, like Faraday. He made a
revolutionary discovery. As any student of history would predict,
this led the academic authorities to kick him out of the
university. He was vilified and ridiculed for years and years.
Finally, long after, he won a Nobel prize.
 
 
 You mean like Einstein got kicked out of university? No, because his 
 revolutionary ideas got him kicked *into* university.
 
 
 You mean like Planck's ideas got him kicked out of university? No, because 
 they named one after him.
 
 
 etc.
 
 
 You can't just make shit up to please your audience.
 
 
 I'd like to know of a professor who got kicked out of university for a 
 revolutionary idea. At least one that turned out to be right, and didn't 
 have religious objectors.
 
 
 Because, contrary to your claim, Arrhenius does not provide an example. I 
 admit, my source does not go beyond wikipedia, but according to it, his 
 controversial ideas were presented in his doctoral thesis, so he didn't have 
 a position to be kicked out of. And while there were local skeptics, his 
 degree was granted, if only as 3rd class. Nevertheless, when the 
 dissertation was sent to other European scholars, they came to Sweden trying 
 to recruit him. Doesn't really sound much like cold fusion, does it?
 
 
 The Swedish Academy then awarded him a grant to study with the likes of 
 Boltzmann and van 't Hoff. That doesn't sound like years and years of 
 vilification does it? A few years after his graduation, he was *given* an 
 appointment at the Stockholm university, and was a full professor/chair 
 (rector) about a decade after his PhD. That doesn't sound much like 
 ridicule, does it?
 
 
 It did take almost 20 years to recognize his work with a Nobel prize, but 
 maybe the fact that the prize was not initiated until about 17 years after 
 had something to do with that. He got the 3rd one in chemistry. He was on 
 the Nobel committee from the beginning until his death, and it seems he was 
 not a particularly nice guy himself, arranging awards for his friends, and 
 attempting to deny them to his enemies. He also got involved in racial 
 biology (eugenics) later in his life.
 
That happens so often I am astounded anyone believes the myth that
scientists welcome new ideas.
 
 
 Well, you would not be astounded if you actually paid attention to history, 
 instead of twisting it to rationalize your fervent belief in cold fusion. 
 Right about the same time as the CF announcement, high temperature 
 superconductivity was discovered, and the Nobel prize was awarded -- now get 
 this -- one year later. The discovery had no theory to support it, was 
 unexpected, and yet the discoverers were not dismissed from their positions. 
 Amazing, isn't it. Of course, most Nobel prizes (including Einstein's) take 
 much longer, because it usually takes time for the importance to become 
 manifest, but new discoveries are always celebrated in science, by 
 scientists.
 
 
 As I've said before, the most revolutionary ideas in science in centuries, 
 relativity and QM, were accepted almost as quickly as they could be 
 developed. Because they fit the evidence so perfectly.
 
 
 Just about every evaluation of merit in science, from granting of degrees, 
 to awarding academic or industrial positions, to granting awards, to giving 
 funding, to accepting manuscripts for publication, to any degree of fame and 
 glory, has as its first criterion:
 
 
 *** novelty ***.
 
 
 
 What scientists fear is not new ideas (they crave them), but wrong ideas. 
 Scientists are skeptical; they have to be. Skepticism is a critical filter 
 in guiding research. Without it, they would simply flounder around, like, 
 well, like cold fusion researchers.
 
 
 Of course, that sometimes leads to rejecting good ideas, 

Re: [Vo]:Will the Media Choose the Winners of LENR?

[Charles Hope]

What happened to these men and their device? How can a functional generator 
fail to be mass produced all these years later?



On Dec 16, 2011, at 13:15, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

 Robert
  
 Ø  Before the courts determine a victor, who will the people identify as 
 the inventor? I believe that it may just come down to branding… So, if 
 Nickel Hydrogen really takes off, who gets the credit?
  
 The first Ni-H device to achieve significant excess energy ( 10 watts 
 continuous) and to run for a year in OU mode, and which was completely 
 verified by NASA, and Haldeman at MIT - was the Thermacore reactor, based on 
 Mills’ theory and invented by Gernert, Shauback, and Ernst.
  
 Those three: Gernert, Shauback, and Ernst  should get full credit IMO – not 
 Piantelli, not Focardi, not Rossi, not even Mills who was technically the 
 first theorist of Ni-H.
  
 These three guys have not only the legal priority date, but also the first 
 replicated, strong, continuous results with gas phase hydrogen. (there was 
 prior subwatt transitory results)
  
 As we have mentioned here before, their reactor got more energy per unit of 
 Nickel surface area than the current Rossi reactor, and had not Thermacore 
 gone through merger and corporate reorganization about this time fame (mid 
 nineties) the inventors would surely have tried “nanometric” nickel – which 
 was Rossi’s main contribution. Note Piantelli was late on ‘nano’ too. Rossi 
 does not even get credit for the “nano” since Mills used Raney nickel – by 
 Mills neglected gas-phase.
  
 Why did Mills steer clear of gas-phase? ANS: probably he saw early on that 
 the reactants became slowly radioactive, and RM had spurned LENR since the 
 beginning.
  
 Thermacore Patent   5,273,635   December 28, 1993 This has the World wide 
 priority date and it has expired.
  
 Inventors: Gernert; Nelson J. (Elizabethtown, PA); Shaubach; Robert M. 
 (Litiz, PA); Ernst; Donald M. (Leola, PA)
  
 Note: Randell Mills is NOT listed as co-inventor.
  
 Jones
  

Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!

[Charles Hope]

It's not relevant, because his criticism is against innumeracy, which applies 
to such delusions as astrology and homeopathy, but not cold fusion, where the 
most serious advocates are scientists, who certainly know their differential 
equations. 

Why would anyone mention cold fusion in 2011, and raise P  F as the example, 
while neglecting Rossi? That's really bizarre. 




On Dec 15, 2011, at 16:36, Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 The whole thing is related to pseudoscience and ignorance, and it's all 
 relevant. Here it is:
 
 
 1. HACKS: SHODDY PRESS COVERAGE OF SCIENCE.
 The Leveson Inquiry into the standards and ethics of the UK press, headed 
 by Lord Justice Brian Leveson, was prompted by the News of the World phone-
 hacking scandal (WN 22 Jul 2011). The seamy British tabloid was the top-
 selling English-language newspaper in the world when owner Rupert Murdoch 
 had to close it five months ago after its news-collection methods were 
 exposed. The intense public interest in the sex and drug culture of 
 celebrities is certainly troubling, but the same journalistic standards 
 applied to science news may be more dangerous.  In 1998, for example, 
 Andrew Wakefield, an obscure British gastroenterologist, set off a 
 worldwide vaccination panic when he falsely identified the common MMR 
 vaccination as a cause of autism.  Widely reported by the press, 
 Wakefield's irresponsible assertion led to a precipitous decline in 
 vaccination rate and a corresponding 14-year rise in measles cases.  An 
 editorial in the current issue of Nature (8 Dec 2011) urges scientists 
 to fight back against agenda-driven reporting of science.  Who could 
 disagree? It is, after all, a fight against ignorance. 
 
 2. IGNORANCE: THERE'S PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM.
 A commitment to intellectual openness provides a mechanism for self-
 correction that sets science apart from the unchanging dictates of revealed 
 religion, raising the prospect of transforming Earth into something close 
 to biblical paradise, at least for Homo sapiens.  Directions to this 
 earthly paradise, however, are written in mathematics. In particular, the 
 dialect of scientific progress is differential equations. Unfortunately, 
 few people speak mathematics or have any interest in learning it. In the 
 modern world, the engine of scientific progress is driven by a subset of 
 the human race that speaks mathematics as a second language.  This is not 
 healthy.  Many people, unable to distinguish science from pseudoscience, 
 are duped by crackpots and swindlers who attempt to mimic scientists, and   
 often manage to fool themselves.  How do they do it?
 
 3. LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD  
 There are, I think, many more of them than there are of us. Let me mention 
 just a few of the more notorious:  Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman, who 
 gave us Cold Fusion in 1989, are the most famous in the Free Energy 
 Category. Even so, physicists had their number in a couple of weeks. More 
 recently (2006) in the same category, the Steorn Company in Dublin gave us 
 Orbo, a classic perpetual motion machine.  So classic it gets reinvented 
 every century or so. Unfortunately Orbo is shy and refuses to perform when 
 anyone’s watching. In the Chicken-Little Category, Devra Davis says the 5 
 billion cell-phone users are toast when we reach the latency period of 
 brain cancer.  Alas, I'm reaching my limit and there are hundreds more on 
 my list. Maybe I'll write a book, or did I already do that?
 
 

[Vo]:CF as a historical phenomenon

[Charles Hope]

Are there any examples of pathological science persisting 20 years without 
being properly debunked? Are there any examples of new science remaining on the 
fringe for 20 years before being finally accepted into the mainstream?

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion tells a reader : visit us

[Charles Hope]

Ha! No soup for you, Mary! And no, you can't have anybody else's, either. 

I'm sure whoever visits will be sworn to secrecy. To protect the trade secrets, 
of course, because they don't have a patent on what they're about to mass 
produce!





On Dec 14, 2011, at 19:38, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote:

 M.Y. : Can you mention the name of any well known scientist, engineer, 
 reporter or major company which has visited you, been favorably impressed by 
 the technology you showed them, and with whom we could get confirmation of 
 the visit?
 
 No trade secrets or product specifications are requested -- only an opinion 
 from someone or some company independent of your people and Rossi's-- who has 
 visited your factory and/or lab and has come away with a positive impression.
 
 DKT : You had your chance MaryYugo which you dropped for the sake of your 
 precious anonymity. Why you ask from others to confirm us now?
 Chao
 
 PS Please do not confuse(*) Xanthou street, Glyfada, where our HQ is, with 
 Xanthi town, when we have our main factory and one of our labs. There are 
 just 780km away from each other.
 
 (*)  http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg58942.html
 

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion tells a reader : visit us

[Charles Hope]

Yeah, I was wondering if anyone would notice the irony. 



On Dec 14, 2011, at 21:27, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 Ha! No soup for you, Mary! And no, you can't have anybody else's, either.
 
 I'm sure whoever visits will be sworn to secrecy. To protect the trade 
 secrets, of course, because they don't have a patent on what they're about to 
 mass produce!
 
 PS: I just realized you may have been sarcastic.  If so, I apologize but 
 believers really argue like this so I have no idea whether you're serious or 
 joking!

Re: [Vo]:Rossi clarification on Bianchini

[Charles Hope]

How else do we know what the instruments said, but by recording them?



On Dec 3, 2011, at 16:06, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Ah.  Depends on how much you trust that when Rossi says it's off, it's 
 really off.  Remember the stable! stable!  video. 
 
 I trust the instruments, not Rossi. I do not think it is likely he has 
 developed fake instruments. In any case, I know people who have done these 
 tests with their own instruments, such as the test listed by McKubre in his 
 slides.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Put your money where your mouth is - for charity

[Charles Hope]

Institutions don't like to become irrelevant. They would reverse their policy 
and eat crow before that. They would claim they believed in its possibility all 
along, but were waiting for conclusive evidence. But they wouldn't fade into 
obscurity without making an attempt. 



On Nov 28, 2011, at 22:47, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 No, what I mean is the challenge set by the charity campaign. 5 or 10 
 companies is insignificant. If this is true, I expect no less than a nobel 
 prize by 11/30/2013.
 
 There is not a chance in hell the Nobel prize will ever go to anyone 
 associated with cold fusion. Not now, not ever. Too many people on the 
 committees have staked their reputations on it being wrong. They will all 
 have to die, and they are younger than most researchers. Even if I am wrong 
 about that, it will certainly not happen this year.
 
 Gene Mallove said the Nobel prize will fade away and be forgotten because of 
 cold fusion. I think that is a more likely outcome. It will become irrelevant 
 the way the French academy gradually did under the onslaught of the 
 Impressionist's increasing fame. (The Impressionists were much more 
 celebrated than some history books portray. When Monet painted the Gare Saint 
 Lazare in 1877, I have heard the station master cooperated to the extent of 
 delaying trains.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it

[Charles Hope]

That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or 
expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it 
as evidence of a scam. They should admit that fraud is a rational conclusion.  



On Nov 27, 2011, at 13:05, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:

 From Jed:
 
 What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test?
 
 The advantage would be that people would believe him.  If he did not want
 to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has
 done
 thus far with invited guests including press and scientists?
 
 Look, this really is not complicated. He wants to be believed a little,
 by some groups of people, so that he can sell them reactors. He does not
 want to be believed by everyone at this time. Many other inventors such
 as Edison and Patterson did the same thing for the same reasons.
 
 FWIW it appears that Saddam Hussein followed a similar strategy of
 misdirection in regards to weapons of mass destruction. This is based on
 hindsight analysis - when we tried to figure out why we got it so wrong and
 ended up invading Iraq at the needless cost of thousands of lives. However,
 a major difference between Saddam and Rossi was that in Saddam's case he was
 trying to convince neighboring adversaries of the fact that he HAD them (so
 that they would continue to fear him and not invade), while simultaneously
 trying to convince everyone else of the act that he didn't possess any.
 
 I guess one could say that in Saddam's case he got mixed results.
 
 I guess one could say the same about Rossi, but then, the jury is still out
 on that one. ;-)
 
 Be that as it may, it is clear that tactics of misdirection and
 disinformation are used all the time both in covert warfare and in matters
 of covert business strategy. It would appear that any corporation that wants
 to remain in business had better be prepared to play the game.
 
 Regards,
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks
 

Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it

[Charles Hope]

Ok, replace evidence with reasonable indication, but I believe the original 
point remains. 


On Nov 27, 2011, at 16:16, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or 
 expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it 
 as evidence of a scam.
 
 Misdirection is routinely practiced by most businesses. IBM was famous for it 
 back in the 1970s. For example, they would announce an initiative which 
 they never intended to follow through on, in order to stop a competitor. This 
 is mean spirited, and perhaps unfair, but it is not unethical, and it 
 certainly not a scam. Unless you hold that most corporations are engaged in 
 scams.
 
 I do not think this is evidence. This is your opinion, or your gut feeling 
 of distrust. I do not trust Rossi myself (not to do business with him), but I 
 would never glorify this feeling of mine by calling it evidence of 
 anything. It is intuition. I think evidence should mean a body of facts or 
 information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. 
 That is, objectively verifiable facts in the real world, such as reports that 
 someone has been scammed (or claims to be), or that Rossi has investors who 
 have not performed independent tests of his equipment. Not your feeling that 
 he might have such investors -- or by gosh wouldn't it be just him to have 
 such investors -- but actual names of investors and a credible report about 
 them.
 
 Feelings should not be ignored. Intuition is often valuable when making a 
 business decision. But intuition and facts are two very different things.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy LLC comments on Rossi

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 26, 2011, at 23:25, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is an outrage! I object! Larsen called me the textually prolific 
 Internet poster-commenter Mr. Jed Rothwell. Textual, yes. Prolific, sure. 
 But I do not post on the Internet. This is a mailing list, not the Internet.


Joking, yes?

Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy LLC comments on Rossi

[Charles Hope]

I mean, you're joking that vortex isn't the Internet. 



On Nov 27, 2011, at 18:42, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote:
  
 Joking, yes?
 
 No, I believe Larsen is serious. It is hard to judge.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it

[Charles Hope]

Rossi is a businessman who wants to make money.  Solid testing would be awesome 
marketing but he doesn't want to attract attention, yet he invites AP reporters 
to observe tests. He doesn't need black box tests because he already has 
customers, and though a satisfied customer is the best marketing available, his 
customers are all sworn to secrecy? He is fine with shoddy demoes because he's 
from the Old School. He just wants to sell devices, but not too many, and yet 
every device sold could be torn apart and duplicated.  He doesn't have a patent 
because the one he filed was intentionally absurd. 

The rationalization required to describe a self consistent narrative out of 
these random, contradictory facts is mind boggling. 


On Nov 26, 2011, at 20:45, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Terry, take a moment and google and review the cases of:
 
 Bedini
 Dennis Lee
 Sniffex (and it's $100 million lethal successors such as the ADE651,
 GT200, H3 Tec, HEDD1, AL-6D)
 Perendev
 Mylow
 Jeff Otto
 Carl Tilley
 Aviso
 Any scam of the day at peswiki.com (Sterling cycles them through more
 than once a week)
 and don't forget a detailed study of Steorn
 Any HHO scam, one of which recently killed three participants in a Los
 Angeles suburb and blew up a building
 
 And there are many, many others I could look up but it probably
 wouldn't sway you one bit.
 
 All of the above are scams, scammers, and con men.  Most are investor
 scams rather than product scams.  A few have been caught.  Some are
 convicted felons, like Rossi.  Most don't get caught-- at least not
 for a while and not for every scam.  Some scams are unusually deadly
 -- for example explosive detector scams which killed a dozen people on
 camera in Thailand and possibly hundreds or thousands of anonymous
 people in Iraq and wasted about a hundred million dollars in US aid to
 Iraq.
 
 Do you live in a world of blissful innocence in which everyone is
 honest and you can believe what they say simply because they say it?
 

Re: [Vo]:Leonardo Corporation is a Paper Company

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 26, 2011, at 21:07, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 5) The registered address for the Leonardo Corporation is 8 Town Farm
 Rd, New Boston, NH.
 
 https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/soskb/Corp.asp?414253
 
 And there's nothing there.
 


What does this mean? There's no building at the address?

Re: [Vo]:Why Rossi's E-cat is claimed to have a COP of around 6

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 26, 2011, at 19:52, Berke Durak berke.du...@gmail.com wrote:
.
 
 Actually, some women will find your statement offensive - are ladies
 precious flowers unable to speak up for themselves and that should be
 protected from vulgar language?


Absolutely. And American ladies never, ever use foul language. We maintain them 
as creatures of proper breeding and pleasant temperament. You really must try 
one some time. They're the envy of all the world. 

Re: [Vo]:Leonardo Corporation is a Paper Company

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 26, 2011, at 22:32, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you are talking about his experimental results, I will stop believing them 
 when:
 
 1. When Mary Yugo finds a stage magician who can tell us how to fake this, 
 even when the machine is opened up to inspection.


Opened up to exactly how much inspection?

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

That's enough with the personal attacks.  

So the client is the American military, who has hired Fioravanti to take 
possession of their goods, and though the branch wants to keep their identity 
secret, it nevertheless insisted on the publicity of the October 28th test?

Am I clear?




On Nov 25, 2011, at 2:49, Marcello Vitale mvit...@ucsbalum.net wrote:

 MY says there is no client. Let me explore the logical consequences of this 
 revelation. Because it's a fact. MY said it, and it fits Occam's razor, which 
 says (I am sure I don't need to remind you) that whatever MY points to as 
 the simplest theory, is indeed true.
 
 Therefore, October 28 was all a big show, with actors and dancers. Yet, Rossi 
 is not turning around and selling retail, or selling stocks. Not making money 
 in any way. Not using the advertisement he paid for, if you will. It's as if 
 a company would launch a huge ad campaign, but not put the advertised product 
 in stores. Buy my ecat! Available 2013! Please, don't send money now! 
 
 Ah, sure, except he is already making money: from those secret investors 
 bound to strict secrecy agreements who paid him in secret money drawn in a 
 secret currency nobody else knows about, which of course would at least 
 explain the financial crisis. Then, why did Rossi have to make that show, 
 anyway? Show the investors he is selling? Then they would start asking for a 
 return on the investment. No, no, the RD money leeches are always just a few 
 weeks away from a salable product. It doesn't compute.
 
 Maybe he just wanted to laugh at us? Or maybe he wanted to make sure MY, 
 certainly his most feared competitor, was kept busy writing about it and not 
 do any work? But if Rossi is a scammer, the competitor of a scammer is 
 another scammer. OK, I guess I'm onto something, I think all the passages in 
 the logical chain do make sense, if one starts from the assumption that Rossi 
 is a scammer, arriving to the conclusion that MY is also a scammer seems 
 almost unavoidable.
 
 Which water car are you selling, MY?
 
 MY theory is the simplest!
 
 :- :-) :-)
 
 On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. 
 
 OK.  So you hire some munitions experts who defuse such things for a living.  
 If you buy a megawatt plant, you get 100 tries to disarm the mechanism.  You 
 can try freezing it ... in liquid nitrogen if necessary.  You can examine it 
 first non-destructively any way you want including the examination Rossi 
 forbade Celani to do during a demo.  I can't believe for enough money you 
 couldn't break anything Rossi could put in.  And remember, Rossi is limited 
 by safety issues.
 
  
 Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to 
 them as his flagship client?
 
 My theory is the simplest:  that there is no client.   
 
  

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

So far, nobody seems to be able to predict Rossi's actions as well as Mary can. 
The rest of us are stumped, but her hypothesis explains the behavior. 



On Nov 24, 2011, at 17:07, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 We don't know that was what went down.
 
 AG
 
 
 On 11/25/2011 8:03 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
 A friend wrote to me: Only Andrea could meet with a senator to ask for 
 financial incentives to build a factory and refuse to allow them to test, 
 huh?
 
 - Jed
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Report on Rossi's visit to Boston

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 24, 2011, at 19:49, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I'm curious.  How do you think Rossi protects his IP when he sells 100 of the 
 E-cats in a batch to an unnamed client.
 
 I answered that question already. Please reread my message.
 


He claims to have a self-destruct mechanism built in. 



 
 There is no smoking gun for fraud.  But Rossi behaves exactly and 
 consistently like free energy scammers who in the past ripped off millions 
 from investors.
 
 He also behaves exactly like a legitimate businessman who does not have a 
 patent, and is having difficulty getting one. Everyone knows it is difficult 
 to get a patent for cold fusion. As far as I know, it is impossible in the 
 U.S.
 


But Rossi says it's not cold fusion. The patent application he tried lacked the 
catalyst. How can he get protection for the catalyst if he doesn't reveal it in 
the application?

Why did he promise to never sell to the military, then turn around to sell to 
them as his flagship client?

Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what ever 
 Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand?
 
 AG


What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping open your 
new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for mass 
production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool shed. 

Re: [Vo]:Short report on Kullander's cold fusion lecture

[Charles HOPE]

Why would you try to make billions selling knockoff ecats? I don't know,
but the thought might occur to some. He can prevent you from doing this by
selling it to you at a cheap price? And offering tech support?



On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Rossi seems confident that will not happen or it will take some time. Why
 would I do that if he sells to me at a good price and provides excellent
 support? Selling price is not everything in deciding who I buy goods from.
 Going for the cheapest price is a well proven way to get ripped off. He is
 quoting public 10 kW system at $0.54 / Watt with a min life of 20 years.
 Wonder what he quotes for 100 MWs?

 AG



 On 11/25/2011 2:59 PM, Charles Hope wrote:

 On Nov 23, 2011, at 23:08, Aussie Guy E-Cataussieguy.e...@gmail.com**
  wrote:

  Sign a contract for delivery, put your money into Escrow and do what
 ever Black Box test you wish. What is so hard to understand?

 AG


 What's hard to understand is how Rossi will prevent you from chopping
 open your new ecat, analyzing the catalyst, and sending it off to china for
 mass production? This would make more sense than using it to heat your tool
 shed.





-- 
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 1 MW Test Discrepancy

[Charles Hope]

I'm finding Cude's responses informative in this thread, and it seems to me 
that he's adequately proven his case now that dispute has been withdrawn. 



On Nov 23, 2011, at 17:49, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 This is getting a bit out of hand.  It does not make sense for me and this 
 poster to continue to state the exact opposites over and over as in the 
 broken record responses that have clogged up the vortex.  I am happy to 
 respond to anyone who has a valid point to make, but I do not see any purpose 
 in repeating the same things.
  
 Yes, I have read your responses(Cude) and find them lacking.   Should I tell 
 you that I find them informative just to make you happy?   I fail to see 
 where you come up with your information, as it does not result in a logical 
 sequence of events or explain ECAT performance.
  
 Your agreements are inconsistent and attempt to cover both sides of the 
 discussion.  Forgive me to say this but you just do not understand what you 
 suggest.
  
 I promise to monitor any valid responses that our members require, but will 
 not continue to repeat myself just for your(Cude) convenience.  That comes 
 close to the definition of insanity.
  
 If you come up with a valid point, I will certainly respond as I intend to 
 seek the truth concerning operation of the ECATs.  I have not, and will not 
 defend positions which are not reasonable and the source of any new 
 information will not be discriminated against, even if he is a confirmed 
 skeptic.
  
 I just want to make one main comment.  The suggestion that the power output 
 is consistent with an average of 70 kW to 470 kW is patently in error.  I 
 might consider a range of 350 kW to 500 +kW because of the suggestion that 
 each ECAT has about 8 liters of volume that can be filled by water under the 
 worst case condition.  Likewise, the upper limit would be increased if the 
 water level is dropping during the test.   The 479 kW average output power 
 calculation obtained by the engineer is acceptable to me and he is an expert 
 at his art.
  
 Dave
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2011 4:11 pm
 Subject: Re: [Vo]: ECAT 1 MW Test Discrepancy
 
 
 
 On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 2:19 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:
 I have reviewed the two responses by this poster to my hypothesis and it is 
 clear that these responses do not represent reality.  The poster is convinced 
 that Rossi is scamming and there is no level of proof that will be accepted 
 otherwise.
 
 You expressed your conviction that Rossi was right before you even 
 considered my arguments, so *you* clearly  started with a conclusion. 
 Considering what you said, it is clear that there is no level of proof that 
 will convince you that Rossi's demos (including the last one) do not need 
 nuclear reactions to explain them.
  
 Show me real evidence and I will accept it.  Otherwise, it is not going to 
 matter.
 
 The fact is that the reported measurements are consistent with power output 
 (average) from 70 kW to 470 kW, and if you accept partially filled ecats, 
 from 9 kW to 470 kW. Lower power is more plausible given the slow warm-up 
 period.
  
 Saying this over and over does not make it true.  The evidence is 
 overwhelmingly against this.
  
   I stand by all of the statements that I made and all of the evidence 
 supports them. 
 
 Again, the best you can say is that it is consistent with them. Your 
 description is *not* required by the evidence. That's a big difference. One 
 you clearly failed to absorb in your education.
  
 That sounds like an insult.  Try to improve your tone.
 
 There is no virtually no evidence to support the water continues through 
 without vaporization position. 
 
 Not without vaporization. Without *significant* vaporization. Another huge 
 difference because of the ratio of 1700 between the volumes. A tiny bit of 
 vaporization means the output is almost all gas by volume. That's another 
 point you don't seem to understand.
  
 You never explain the trap.  Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
 I tried to make this system fit in the beginning, but found many holes that 
 are left unanswered.
 
 All the ones you have mentioned, I have countered.
  
 Sorry, but this is just not true.  None have been countered effectively.
  
   The valve being closed issue is false, since the valve is after the trap. 
 
 I've been harping on the valve for days, and now finally you give your 
 counter-argument? And this is it? Did you even look at the video? There are 
 2 valves. One leading to the heat exchanger, which is open. And one leading 
 to the trap, which is clearly closed at 3:00.
  
 Please review the video.  The trap is between the ECAT system and the closed 
 valve.  Closing the valve will stop the high speed vapor you suggest that 
 carries the water past.  Water can flow down hill. 
 
 What would keep water 

Re: [Vo]:its been great

[Charles Hope]

I've tossed a few posters into my filter, generally for an excess of unamusing 
puns, but I never understood the theory of compounding the annoyance with long 
announcements of same. 



On Nov 21, 2011, at 0:56, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apparently, Mary is less pathological case than Cude, but problem is that she 
 is a perpetual motion machine that goes endlessly onwards and onwards without 
 need for input energy (food). Like she has moral oblication to protect poor 
 and consideration inable investors from getting cheated.
 
 It would be nice if we could introduce her and other hyperactive posters a 
 special rule that there is a two post per day limit for messages that contain 
 quoted material and after the quota is exceeded there should be required 24 
 hour delay before reply can be sent. This would effectively prevent inboxes 
 to overflow without limiting too much discussion. Actually, it should enhance 
 the quality of discussion, because people would think more carefully what is 
 relavant to say.
 
 For filtering people, usually it is plausible to filter not just messages 
 that come from the address jounivalko...@gmail.com, but also messages where 
 the body contain a phrase Jouni Valkonen or email address. This way also 
 replies will get filtered.
 
 Also with filtering with Gmail, instead of diverting them into thrash bin, it 
 would be better to mark them as read automatically. This way it is easy to 
 ignore them in threads, but if there are new topics posted they still appear 
 in the inbox and will get noted, although not necessarily read.
 
 —Jouni
 
 Ps. After Mary came here I have in my inbox more than 70 threads that contain 
 unread messages. I would say that there is definitely a problem with posting 
 frequency.
 
 
 On Nov 21, 2011 1:33 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:
 Jed, that is NOT possible. He would still see people answering the same 
 things over and over again. What makes MY annoying is not the arguments, but 
 the repetition. But the repetition is not only hers, it is also from whoever 
 answer. So, it won't work just blocking. 
 
 2011/11/20 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 you guys had a real nice list going. then mary yugo joined. im out of here.
 
 Why don't you just block out Mary Yugo's message? Problem solved.
 
 I'll do that in a week or so, and stop responding.
 
 - Jed
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com
 

Re: [Vo]:E-Cat guy: Hire a local HVAC engineering company!

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 20, 2011, at 13:05, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:


 
 
 And why in the world would you trust people who install large industrial 
 devices?  In my experience they have a lot of practical knowledge on how to 
 do their jobs according to instructions and protocols but not the formal 
 education to understand the reasons.  Rossi's device isn't an ordinary boiler 
 for goodness' sake!  It's a flippin' NUCLEAR FUSION REACTOR with claims of 
 awesome power capabilities.  I wouldn't let an HVAC engineer near it.



Really? What better way to apply best practices in standard, practical  
calorimetry?

Re: [Vo]:its been great

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 20, 2011, at 18:45, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 2011-11-21 00:33, Daniel Rocha wrote:
 Jed, that is NOT possible. He would still see people answering the same
 things over and over again. What makes MY annoying is not the arguments,
 but the repetition. But the repetition is not only hers, it is also from
 whoever answer. So, it won't work just blocking.
 
 With Mozilla Thunderbird (an external email client) it's possible. It can 
 kill completely threads and thread *branches* created by filtered users, if 
 desired. You would however still see messages from the many users on vortex-l 
 who appear to reply in a non-standard manner, splitting threads in multiple 
 pieces.
 
 (that's very annoying in my opinion, together with HTML emails. The use of 
 properly configured email clients should be among group rules)
 

Agreed. Also, new threads should not be renamed replies to other threads, 
because some smart email clients are not fooled by subject changes, and the new 
thread is hidden in the original. 

Incidentally, I find the list much more valuable with the contrasting 
contributions from Yugo, Cude, and Lomax, than when it becomes an echo chamber 
of agreement. 

Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?

[Charles Hope]

Rossi said he'd sell to anybody except the military. 

On Nov 19, 2011, at 23:17, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11/20/2011 2:30 PM, Mary Yugo wrote:
 What Rossi could do would be twofold.  First, ally himself with some deep 
 pockets.
 
 Deep pockets? How much deeper can you get but the military? Who Rossi now 
 claims bought the first and the next 13 x 1 MW E-Cat plants. 

Re: [Vo]:How should I demonstrate LENR, if I can reproduce it?

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 20, 2011, at 0:52, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 
 I made a good faith effort to explain the system to one of them to no avail.  
 That particular one refused to discuss the operation of Rossi's 1 MW system 
 in details point by point. 
 It is apparent that he realized that his argument was being dismissed and ran 
 for cover.  Maybe he was afraid that he would have to accept the fact that 
 Rossi's test was valid
 once his misconceptions were revealed.


That's not what I saw. I saw you start with insults,  then begin rational 
dialogue, get frustrated, and switch back to the insults. You didn't give the 
scientific discussion with Cude more than two days. 

I would like to see more scientific discussion. 
 

And also less dumb speculation about folks being paid agents of Big Oil. 

Re: [Vo]: UK's DECC Monitoring the sector (LENR)

[Charles Hope]

Moving into acceptance? Seems to me that governments are taking the same policy 
of Cude, Yugo, and Park. 





On Nov 18, 2011, at 0:09, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote:

 I never said they DID believe Rossi. This has nothing to do with Rossi, this 
 sector refers to LENR in general where Rossi is only one of a growing number 
 of people with interesting and commercially useful results.
 
 Mary, you can try and spin their statement any way you like, but it's very 
 clear. Their Chief Scientific Advisor has just admittted that it is 
 appropriate for DECC to maintain a watch on this sector. Their words, not 
 mine. If you are having difficulty in accepting the fact that LENR is now 
 moving slowly into mainstream acceptance by gov agencies then just say so.
 
 
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [Vo]: UK's DECC Monitoring the sector (LENR)
 From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com
 Date: Fri, November 18, 2011 2:53 pm
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 
 
 
 On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote:
 I recently contacted DECC (UK equivalent of DoE) to get their view on what 
 they thought about the ecat, and to see if they had even heard of it.  I got 
 quite an interesting reply. Trigger for further action is an interesting 
 phrase.
 
 
 DECC is aware of this alleged power source: the DECC CSA, David MacKay FRS, 
 has read some of the literature and has met Sven Kulander, who has reviewed 
 an experiment and whose report is on the Defkalion website. The CSA's 
 judgment is that it is appropriate for DECC to maintain a watch on this 
 sector, with the key trigger for further action being the publication of the 
 work in a reputable peer-refereed journal, including full details so that 
 academic scientists can replicate the results. SNIP
 
 In other words, they don't believe Rossi either, on the evidence that he's 
 provided.

Re: [Vo]:Stop Destroying Keyboards

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 15, 2011, at 11:17, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Many things about Rossi make no sense. He is not a predictable person, and 
 not easy to understand. His motivations are obscure. He is complicated. His 
 business practices seem risky and ineffective to me. He does many things that 
 make him look bad, as I have often pointed out.


Yes, his behavior is highly irrational. 

I have had conversations with schizophrenics, asking questions and agreeing 
with everything they say in order to understand their worldview. It doesn't 
work. Instead of converging upon a consistent although fantastic world, instead 
they take me on a ride, constantly introducing new ideas, contradicting 
previous ones, but they never notice the contradictions. There's no there 
there. 

Re: [Vo]:Let Rossi Be Rossi?

[Charles Hope]

Granted that Rossi is producing anomalous heat, nevertheless absolutely 
everything else about this story stinks to high heaven. The conundrum which 
nobody can decipher is why someone with a real effect, or a scammer, would 
operate in such a bizarre manner. The only conclusion left is that the effect 
is real and Rossi is insane. 




Sent from my iPhone. 

On Nov 14, 2011, at 10:05, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 This thread is full of strawman arguments. No one is defending Rossi's 
 behavior, least of all me. We are saying:
 
 His claims can be evaluated independently of his behavior, based strictly on 
 the laws of physics. This is true even though his experimental techniques are 
 sloppy.
 
 His business decisions are his business, not anyone else's. His business 
 decisions have nothing to do with his claims.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:a modest proposal

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 14, 2011, at 14:04, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote:
  My working theory on why he behaves that way is that he's scamming. 



There are two problems with that. 

He's shifty and does not inspire confidence. 

He's not taking all the money he's being offered. 

Re: [Vo]:Let Rossi Be Rossi?

[Charles Hope]

On Nov 14, 2011, at 20:12, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 Rossi can be devious, but I have not seen any evidence that he lies about 
 engineering data. 

Except that you wrote 

 Mind you, the list of his statements we compiled includes some diametrically 
 opposite assertions:
 
 http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints


Now, if he wants to maintain secrecy, a reasonable goal, why incessantly answer 
blog questions to the point where misdirection is then needed?





  
 The only conclusion left is that the effect is real and Rossi is insane.
 
 He does not seem insane to me. I have met many others like him. He is 
 suffering from the Inventor's Disease, but not as badly as some.
 
 - Jed


You have said his psychology is completely irrelevant, but his behavior is not 
consistent with that of a pure scientist in pursuit of accuracy, a businessman 
maximizing his return, a con man maximizing his take, a secretive engineer, a 
publicity whore seeking attention. or anything. There is no story that can 
explain his random contradictory behavior, which is why the theories still fly 
around. 
 

Re: [Vo]:Faith!

[Charles Hope]

I'm interested in your criticisms of mainstream physics. Is there widespread 
agreement with your opinions on, say, QED? If not, what is preventing 
mainstream physicists from seeing it?



Sent from my iPhone. 

On Nov 1, 2011, at 4:25, Danny Ross Lunsford antimatte...@yahoo.com wrote:

 My strongest reason for believing that Rossi is on the up and up - plain old 
 faith.
 
 1) QCD, the theory of the strong interaction that controls how protons and 
 neutrons interact, is a beautiful structure that is just about completely 
 useless. Almost nothing can be calculated with it. I don't mean a restricted 
 number of things - I mean just about nothing. Not only is it completely 
 sterile computationally, it is also absolutely useless as a heuristic 
 phenomenology to pave the way forward, the way the London theory of 
 superconductivity paved the way for the real deal of the 
 Bardeen-Cooper-Schrieffer theory.
 
 2) Neutrino physics is in complete disarray. The discovery of oscillations 
 and the failure to find the Higgs boson (something many of us thought would 
 never be found years ago) has thrown even the successful part of the standard 
 model, the electroweak sector, into chaos.
 
 3) Even bare QED, the quantum version of electrodynamics, is plagued with 
 mathematical ambiguities  that caused both Dirac and Feynman to ultimately 
 reject it. Despite all the hubris about calculations to 8 decimal places, as 
 a theory it is hopelessly flawed by reliance on ambiguous mathematics and 
 poorly defined physical concepts. As Dirac said, one ignore a quantity 
 because it is small, not because it is infinite!
 
 In other words, the standard model, for all its publicity, is a ramshackle of 
 phenomenology that borrowed shall we say, its main tools from the theory of 
 superconductivity and pushed them way beyond the brink of reasonableness. 
 Even the fundamental idea, gauge invariance, does not last past square 1, and 
 one must sacrifice it to have a short range force.
 
 Now consider the situation in 1820, when Faraday was working. Almost nothing 
 was known about the true nature of light, there was no cooperative theory of 
 electricity and magnetism, much less one that united them is a single scheme 
 - that would have to wait until 1865. But Faraday forged ahead with his 
 experiments. He discovered that a current loop in the presence of a magnet 
 experienced a torque - the first clue to their actual relationship. Within a 
 decade, people were making electric motors, completely without any real 
 understanding of what was going on! Yet that did not stop people from 
 tinkering and inventing and moving forward. It was the utility of the 
 phenomenon that drove the science, not the other way around! And of course 
 who in his right mind would have imagined the key to their relationship was 
 nothing but light itself? That had to wait for a epochal genius, Maxwell.
 
 Friends, there are no epochal geniuses around. But we do have limited 
 knowledge - a great deal of phenomenology - about the nucleus, and a 
 bandy-legged, cross-eyed theory that at least makes up a sort-of consistent 
 whole. The LENR researchers of today are like Faraday - Rossi is like the 
 guys who made motors (and got rich!) - we wait for the Maxwell to cut the 
 Gordian knot. But for the knot to be cut - you first have to believe it is 
 possible. You have to have faith!
 
 Did we really think we would go down into the mud again without ever making 
 any progress? Did we really imagine it was all over? Here's a brand new 
 phenomenon, exactly when one was desperately needed! both in the practical 
 world and in the abstract world of pure research. I could not  imagine that 
 we would all just turn out the lights, turn off our  computers, shut down our 
 universities and libraries, dismantle their buildings for firewood, and 
 simply return to the dark ages. I had faith that some day, something new 
 would happen. I am painfully aware of my own limitations, but that is exactly 
 why I'm allowed to believe, when the self-satisfied and arrogant skeptic can 
 only stew in his own cynicism.
 
 It's faith that tells me, more than 1000 experts and gauges, that this is 
 real.
 
 -drl
 
 --
 I write a little. I erase a lot. - Chopin
 

Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.

[Charles Hope]

Jed, in your opinion, why does Rossi bother with these demoes, if they don't 
impress fence sitters, and he doesn't need new investors?



Sent from my iPhone. 

On Oct 28, 2011, at 22:37, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I wrote:
 
 This test has been a colossal disappointment.
 
 I know Rossi pretty well by now, so I was expecting something like this. 
 Given who Rossi is and how he thinks, this wasn't a colossal disappointment.
 
 Also, this was not a colossal disappointment to me because, hey, it did not 
 blow up. As readers here know, I was seriously worried the damn thing might 
 explode or irradiate the audience. I am relieved that nothing like that 
 happened. It seemed to work at 1/2 of nameplate power. For a reactor they 
 just finished building, that's fantastic. That is as good as 1 MW.
 
 Rossi is much braver than I am, or much more foolhardy, or both.
 
 As you hear in this video, I am not the only one who is worried about 
 radiation and other dangers. So are the Italian authorities, as well they 
 should be:
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAdGduQ50A
 
 Rossi says here that they issued some sort of conditional permit, with 
 restrictions. That is the sort of thing you would expect for an experimental 
 device. That sounds plausible. It is what I would expect a responsible 
 government official to issue.
 
 I still think it was much too big a reactor, and I still think the test 
 schedule was too fast. But evidently Rossi and the Italian officials share 
 some of my concerns about safety and that's good.
 
 I predicted that a major company such as GE or Mitsubishi would want to get 
 involved in such risky tests. Perhaps I was wrong and this was a big company. 
 But if it was an up-and-coming profitable, risk-taking place such as 
 Manutencoop, that may be the kind of thing they would get into. Back in the 
 go-go late 1960s, companies such as Data General used to get involved in 
 risky start-up technology. According to Soul of a New Machine there were 
 rumors that Data General was involved in some actual physical risk and 
 possibly criminal behavior such as burning down the buildings of rival 
 companies.
 
 - Jed
 

Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Customer is not who is?

[Charles Hope]

Maybe there was an acquisition since the arrangement was made. 



Sent from my iPhone. 

On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:29, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

 If somebody can understand this. please explain:
 
 Mattia Battistich
 October 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 AM
 Dear Dr. Rossi,
 1) A few weeks ago I remember reading a quote on you saying that by mid 
 October, a week before the test scheduled for the 28th, you would have 
 revealed the location where your first 1MW plant customer comes from, and 
 that by then it would clear to everybody who it was. Considering less then a 
 week separates us from the 28th are you still inclined to do so?
 
 
 
 Andrea Rossi
 October 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 AM
 Dear Mattia Battistich:
 1- USA; is an Entity that wants not to be disclosed, for its particularity; 
 this does not depend from me, the Customer is not the same we supposed would 
 have been. As Eraclitus wrote “…all changes, and the water flowing along a 
 river is never the same…”
 
 I awfully regret interrupting my philosophy studies many years ago.
 I know reallly a lot of Companies, but no one with the above
 characteristics.
 
 -- 
 Dr. Peter Gluck
 Cluj, Romania
 http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
 

Re: [Vo]:The style is the man himself.

[Charles Hope]

I'm just interested in what kind of unpowered system can use insulation to 
increase its temperature after the power has been shut off. 

It seems to me Jed has a point. 



Sent from my iPhone. 

On Oct 17, 2011, at 21:37, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com 
wrote:

 Mr. Rothwell never attacked me personally. He merely labeled all remaining 
 skeptics as ignorant/blind/foolish/etc. I think that there is still room to 
 question the results, and I'm certainly not the only one. I think that the ad 
 hominems can stifle open communication, and I thought that they did not have 
 place here.
 Now, in questioning the thermocouples, I'm apparently violating the laws of 
 physics and
 without a 7th grade education. A public forum should be a safe environment 
 from ad hominems, but maybe I misunderstood. 
 I may not have a degree in Japanese, but I was studying quantum mechanics 
 at Fermilab while still in high school.  Nevertheless, I'll take a back seat, 
 or get out of the kitchen if this is how you guys cook.
 
 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
 
 
 
 
 On 11-10-17 03:50 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote:
 
 Robert,
 
 You state:
 
 You [Mr. Rothwell] may disagree, and now be 100% convinced, but it's your
 personal attacks that are troubling.
 
 Where has Mr. Rothwell attacked you personally?
 
 
 Well, if Robert is claiming that there was no energy generated, then the
 item from Jed which he quoted would apply to him, and that sure sounds like
 an ad hominem to me:
 
 Skepics who claim that ... there was no energy generated ... are ignorant.
 They lack 7th grade knowledge of physics.
 
 That is not an attack on the arguments.  That is an attack on the skeptics,
 themselves.  Jed has personally attacked /all/ Rossi skeptics, it would
 seem.
 
 
 It would not be an attack on Robert if Robert is, in fact, in the 7th grade.
 He might be. Or his science education may have ended then.
 
 There are many people who have no knowledge of science beyond junior high
 levels. I have met some high and mighty Wall Street investment bankers
 interested in cold fusion who would not know the Second Law of
 Thermodynamics if it bit them on the butt.
 
 Such people are common in the U.S., and always have been. Read Mark Twain
 and you will see.
 
 Being ill-educated it not dishonorable. What is dishonorable is to refuse to
 educate yourself more; to challenge your assumptions; or to perform a simple
 test in the kitchen to see what happens to hot water in a poorly insulated
 metal vessel in 4 hours.
 
 I am pretty sure this is junior high level material because somewhere I have
 a junior high physics textbook, in Japanese. I recall this kind of thing was
 covered in it. Granted, their classes tend to be more advanced than ours.
 Anyway, I can't find it.
 
 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:More drama: open letter to Christos Stemmenos from Defkalion GT

[Charles Hope]

I'm sorry, but how does Stremmenos' letter ruin Rossi's chances of obtaining 
damages?

Sent from my iPhone. 

On Oct 13, 2011, at 15:42, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

 Thanks, Akira ... More drama indeed! Move over, James Bond there is new 
 poker-faced gambler in town.
 
 This is looking almost like financial suicide on Rossi's part (assuming DGT 
 is not bluffing). AR has made all the wrong strategic moves and with 
 mind-boggling naiveté. In contrast, the low key and well-worded response from 
 DGT is superbly crafted from a legal standpoint, whereas everything coming 
 from the Rossi camp is self-inflicted damage.
 
 Could Stemmenos end up being a double-agent or plant from Defkalion, whose 
 main function has been to cleverly and completely eliminate any chance of 
 Rossi obtaining damages for breach of contract? If so, Stemmenos has 
 performed admirably.
 
 It is easily possible that DGT may NOT have had money problems after all, but 
 nevertheless desperately wanted to wiggle their way out of an expensive 100 
 million Euro contract and when Rossi could not meet a milestone, they say an 
 opening. Apparently DGT also discovered an alternative technology to E-Cat - 
 and they accomplished this in a most impressive fashion by tricking Rossi 
 into believing that he still had the upper hand, since he had never disclosed 
 the secret ... which may not have been so valuable, after all. 
 
 Apparently DGT discovered either the secret catalyst itself, or more likely a 
 substitute, and on their own initiative; and Rossi refuses to understand 
 this. Rossi has been played. He apparently even wants to hire away the 
 scientist who found the alternative process. Pity.
 
 IMO - the past several months may have cost Rossi most of the value of 
 whatever he had to begin with, in terms of value of IP - even if we discount 
 the ludicrous and unenforceable patent.  He has been set-up in such an 
 artistic fashion by his opponents that he is still in the dark just as Act 
 111 is nearly complete ... and miraculously does not realize that he (EFA, 
 Leonardo, Ampenergo, etc) and NOT his former associates violated the terms of 
 the agreement - and therefore cannot collect either Royalties or the huge 
 lump sum payment, while at the same time allowing DGT to compete worldwide 
 (instead of just that valuable Balkan market :)
 
 ... and now we learn DGT may compete with what is claimed to be a superior 
 product. Plus, DGT can now redirect that 100 million Euro into a factory and 
 distribution network of their own. They have seem to have pulled off a 
 real-life Casino Royale.
 
 Of course, this conclusion is valid only if DGT has indeed duplicated the 
 technology successfully. 
 
 Given the circumstances, it seems at least arguable that they have done this, 
 and that Stemmenos may have been their ace-in-the-hole, so to speak.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Akira Shirakawa 
 A translation has been posted today on 22passi instead:
 
 http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/10/stremmenos-stance-on-defkalion-gts-10.html
 
 Cheers,
 S.A.
 
 
 

Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too

[Charles Hope]

One can make the case that displaced old workers can't be retrained, and so 
should be kept alive on transfer payments, but their children should be able to 
take part in the new economy, as software workers, so there should never be a 
permanently displaced class. 

Sent from my iPhone. 

On Sep 10, 2011, at 10:14, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:

 From Harry Veeder
 
  
 
  Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more
 
  important to create automation and robots who does the productive
 
  work. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation.
 
  
 
  As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to
 
  create jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of
 
  median people by introducing basic income.
 
  
 
 I disagree. Vehemently so. Perhaps I should actually say that the above 
 premise misses an important point that I will attempt to clarify – as I see 
 it.
 
  
 
 It is inevitable that outsourcing, which is then permanently followed by 
 automation  robotics is what is in store for us, what the above comment 
 completely misses is how will we go about employing increasing numbers of 
 individuals who have been misplaced as a result of their traditional jobs 
 having been outsourced and eventually taken over by automation and robotics.
 
  
 
 A subtle point the above premise may have gotten completely wrong is the fact 
 that as automation takes over more and more jobs in traditional manufacturing 
 sectors it is NOT necessarily true that these misplaced workers will end up 
 being reemployed in various service sector areas of the economy. The problem 
 many politicians seem oblivious to and subsequently refuse to acknowledge to 
 their constituents is the fact that increasing numbers of service sector jobs 
 are ALSO ending up being automated. This is happening because it is far 
 cheaper for companies providing various services to automate rather than to 
 continue employing troublesome people who need expensive health insurance and 
 other bennies like unions that management hates. For example, the last time 
 I called my cable company to complain about the fact that my internet service 
 was down I never talked to a human. The ENTIRE phone conversation was 
 handled through a combination of voice recognition and recorded responses 
 that guided me step-by-step through a complex process that helped me restore 
 internet access. At my place of employment, more and more individuals we 
 employ for computer related work are contractors hired from India and China – 
 (Outsourcing). Sooner or later many of these “outsourced” jobs will end  up 
 being automated as well. Other service sectors that one might think would be 
 impervious to the ravages of automation are also in danger of being replaced, 
 such as the lawyer industry. Specialized search engines can take over many 
 tasks previously employed by lawyers whose job had been to search text for 
 various rulings.
 
  
 
 National wealth will NOT be created if the ONLY thing we see happen to our 
 nation is the inevitable implementation of more and more automation. All that 
 will produce is increasing numbers of individuals thrown out of job market 
 where they may remain permanently unemployed or underemployed as they 
 desperately take up the only kinds of jobs they can find, such as flipping 
 burgers at McDonalds or manning cash registers at Wall Mart or Office Depot. 
 Time after time, amount of income these displaced workers end up earning 
 after being reemployed is far less than what they were previously earning, 
 and this inevitably results in the fact that they will not earn enough income 
 to be able to afford the very fruits that automation is supposed to offer 
 them.
 
  
 
 This issue has been going on for years and it is insidious. It is a major 
 contributing factor to our current economic woes. It is vividly described in 
 detail by author, Martin Ford in his book The Lights in the Tunnel which 
 Mr. Rothwell originally brought to our attention not long ago.
 
  
 
 http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/
 
  
 
 It's worth reading.
 
  
 
 As a nation, as a world, we will have to devise ways in which to both evenly 
 and fairly redistribute income (currency) amongst the population regardless 
 of whether these individual are employed in the traditional sense or not. Our 
 economies are consumer based. This means that if too many remain unemployed 
 they cannot consume anything, and our economy tanks permanently. It will make 
 no difference if automation produces everything we need if too many 
 individuals have no means at their disposal in which to earn a decent income 
 in which to earn goods and services that end up being created via through 
 automation.
 
  
 
 Regards,
 
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 
 www.OrionWorks.com
 
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Greek press report: Defkalion has not applied for license or safety testing

[Charles Hope]

If I understand the translation, this means that Defkalion never requested 
permission to build a plant where it was thought they would. How does this 
reflect poorly upon Rossi?

Sent from my iPhone. 

On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:56, Susan Gipp susan.g...@gmail.com wrote:

 Another evidenche that the whole e-cat story is built over a pile of lies
 How long Rossi will last with this joke ?
 
 2011/9/3 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com
 See:
 
 http://www.xanthipress.gr/eidiseis/politiki/9154-xynidis-kontos-aitisi-ergostasio-syntixi-defkalion-.html
 
 
 A translation sent to me by someone (maybe done by Google):
 
 
 No applications for plant in Xanthi
 
 With new negative letters answered, as expected, the question submitted by 
 the MP [member of parliament?  M. Y.] Xanthi New Republic to 
 competentministers on the issue of environmental impacts from the possible 
 establishment of Xanthi plant devices producing energy from fusion of 
 hydrogen-nickel.
 
 After the replies of the Ministry of Finance to the Ministry of Environment 
 and the Ministry of Development responded to Members of the Southwest there 
 is filed an application for the company Defkalion for this investment and 
 therefore can not assess the potential environmental burden .   
 
 Indeed the response of the Ministry of Development, signed by the Deputy 
 Minister Socrates Xynidis.
 
 In this report: In response to the above question tabled in the House by 
 Congressman Alexander Short [That's a translation of Alexander Kontos -- 
 M.Y.] , you know that it has submitted documentation to permit installation 
 and operation of industrial plant of this type»
 
 Negative responses from Papakonstantinou - Sokos.
 
 Respondents who were released from Alexander Short [Kontos], included a cover 
 of the Environment Minister George Papakonstantinou and a response by the 
 Head of the Department of Industry that the YPEKA not submitted any 
 application. Also by the Secretary of ADMTH letter sent by the Director of 
 the relative address of Apoakentromensi Administration Lambrini Rizos.
 
 There is no known application for approval of building fusion power 
 nickel-hydrogen has not been filed and that of the crop [??] should be 
 ensured through the Environmental Impact Study filed in each case.
 
 

Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means

[Charles Hope]

Quite impressive for a company we were told was thrown together hastily this 
spring.


Sent from my iPhone. 

On Aug 7, 2011, at 13:39, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote:


 They have dozens of experts and hundreds of millions of dollars, and a 
 board of directors that would be suitable for any Fortune 500 company, with 
 extensive experience in industry.
 
 

 

Re: [Vo]:[Political OT]: Global negative income tax

[Charles Hope]

It's not reserved for poor countries, but weak countries. Thus, poor Libya, 
having given up its nuclear ambitions, gets smacked around with a large trout, 
whereas poor DPRK is allowed to fire missiles randomly around its region, and 
it receives a finger wag. 

Craig, truly brilliant post.


Sent from my iPhone. 

On Aug 6, 2011, at 11:04, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote:

 2011/8/6 Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com:
 You propose to end war with a
 global democracy, but wars will never end as long as we give the power
 seekers the ability to wage war.
 
 I have not seen a war in 66 years, because I live in civilized and
 rich country. Believe me, war is something that is only reserved for
 poor people. If we end poverty, we will end all wars. 

Re: [Vo]:[Political OT]: Global negative income tax

[Charles Hope]

Sent from my iPhone. 

On Aug 6, 2011, at 18:54, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:


  
 
 ... They don't want to hear about the fact that when government employees 
 spend their money it boosts the economy in exactly the same manner as what 
 would be spent from individuals who work and earn income out in the free 
 market. Money is money. It makes no difference where the currency comes from 
 nor how the currency is eventually spent. 
 

No. Creating products according to market demand is different than creating 
them without any market demand. Otherwise the unemployed could all get rich 
hiring each other to create and sell snotty tissues and books filled with with 
random words.  


Has it been that long since the USSR crumbled that we have forgotten this? 
Leftists in power all over the world have to come face the superiority of 
markets to determine what should be produced, except for the west, where they 
are mercifully protected from the consequences of their ideas.