Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 December 2011 21:24, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. This is the very problem of current socialist policy. However, if we use 99% of collected tax revenues to support purchasing power of middle class, that is we have basic income economic system. Then the most of the tax what rich are paying will return to the rich. That is because exactly 100 percent of the rich people's income is payed from the purchasing power of the middle class. Therefore we should practice economic policy that maximizes the purchasing power of middle class. With proper economic policy we can greatly expand the middle class. This means huge increase of salary for the Walmart capitalists. Because it is obvious, that no other than middle class does pay their salary. Poor people are, although numerous but still lousy customers. You just need to understand, that in basic income economy, almost all tax revenues are returned for the rich people! And also you must understand that, basic income will also abolish government as useless, because in basic income economy there are only three social classes. Middle class, rich people, and super rich people. We have no need for welfare state or free education and medicare, because everyone has plenty of money to pay for their basic needs. What they had in Star Trek, they had basic income economy. That is beyond socialism and capitalism. Because basic income economy is the only proper way to practice free market economy. Because market economy is based on purchasing power of median consumer and basic income economy will maximize the median purchasing power of median consumer. --- http://binews.org/2011/12/france-three-presidential-candidates-to-propose-basic-income/ FRANCE: Three Presidential Candidates to propose Basic Income The idea of basic income seeps slowly into the French political scene. Following former prime minister Dominique De Villepin’s announcement that he will propose a citizen income to the next presidential elections, two others candidates are preparing their own proposals. Christine Boutin still favors basic income Last week, Christine Boutin, president of the Christian Democratic Party, renewed her support for a basic income, in the move of her campaign towards the next presidential elections in 2012. She said at a meeting that she supported a “basic income” for all the French from birth to replace “the hundreds of benefits to which no one understands anything”. She claims a basic income at 400 Euros for every adult while 200 Euros would be given to children. “This is not a sacrament for idleness or a poverty trap, but an asset to escape poverty,” she added. Back in 2006, Christine Boutin was the first major political figure to propose a “universal dividend.” Very inspired by Yolland Bresson’s work, she even filed a bill at the French National Assembly (which was never debated in the end). “Key measure” of the Green Party More encouraging news is coming to us that Europe Ecologie – Les Verts (Former Green Party) is currently working on its own proposal for a basic income. According to internal sources from the Party, this will be a “key measure” of their election campaign. Eva Joly, the leader of the party who will be running the election, yet made allusions that she favors a “subsistence income”, and the basic income was already in their political platform in the last elections back in 2007 and 2009. But some doubts remained among observers, still waiting for a concrete proposal in view of the next election. Villepin under fire Meanwhile, Villepin’s proposal has been highly criticized by his opponent, arguing that the measure was “demagogic” or “unrealistic”. Even some of his own supporters were destabilized by the idea and left his movement. Other French basic income supporters heavily criticized the nature of the proposal. Indeed, while he suggests a high-valued citizen income of 850 Euros a month, this grant could not be drawn concurrently with other income. But Villepin keeps the line. On his blog he answers critics from President Sarkozy, arguing that “This so called ‘thing’ is no magic nor demagogy, this is simply citizenship.” Stanislas Jourdan – BI News --- Harry
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
interesting vision. basic income is a liberal version of the basic public interest services : basic education, transport, food, culture... it can be criticized because nothing prevent you to use basic income to gamble on horses or drink, instead of educating your kids or building your competence... it can be appreciated, because individual can decide to invest more in one domain than another, and people who don't use the public system infrastructure, keep their cash to pay for better service elsewhere. that is politic vision of the society. for a french man, you look so strange in US. and i suppose we look so strange to you. discussion about grid, autonomy, infrastructure, is really revealing that strong difference between crowded kingdom and pioneer desertic self-managed pioneer countries. roland benabou have good article on that http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers.html eg http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/beliefs%20qje%201%20web.pdf and many other you can undestand why, despite the fact that today the fairness is quite the same in US and europe, our vision are so different... even our religion, electricity, transportation, cities, government, are different and this is connected to the big differences of belief... US people cannot imagine how violent for us is the globalization that impose your pioneer culture to our kingdom culture, and maybe is it the same for US people... 2011/12/15 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com economy
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
just a link http://davecline.posterous.com/the-implications-of-free-energy some good ideas 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: just a link http://davecline.posterous.com/the-implications-of-free-energy some good ideas I disagree with one of the author's main points, which is: Although it might seem that way on first ponder, unfortunately free energy would fail to release humanity from those ancient struggles of the possession of natural resources (and the land on which they exist), and the control of the world’s monies and ideas. I do not know about monies and ideas, but with cold fusion you can have all the natural resources and land you want. You can have practically unlimited amounts. Resources can be extracted anywhere given enough energy. You can aggressively recycle materials from landfills. You can extract ores from paydirt they would never be economical today. Many elements can be extracted from seawater. Regarding land, as I pointed out in my book, with indoor food factories, the US could grow all of the food we consume in an area the size of greater New York City. - Jed
[Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
I absolutely hate to admit it but these disruptive technologies will force income redistribution on the world to a degree never seen before. Indeed, I think that's already starting to happen. While mobs in NYC protest the evil 1%, wiser heads understand that this 1% now pays 43% of NYC tax revenue. Driving them out of town would be financial suicide. Skewing any tax base in the name of being fair creates a potential disaster in an economic downturn as revenue vanishes from big payers while the populace applies for food stamps .. but as Futurama reminds us, you gotta do, what you gotta do. One of the reasons for deflationary forces is job loss and that's going to happen to banks, utilities, oil companies, and state governments that can't find enough revenue, even after they triple car registration$ and huge increases in property taxes (they will be forced to go after things that are most fixed and simple to account for). VAT tax revenues will plunge as more people 'do for themselves' with free energy and cut out the tax paying middleman. It will, however, be an absolute delight to watch greedy, sociopathic corporate executives turn on each other, fighting to steal what the deflated masses can no longer provide. - like MF Global stealing speculators money. The poor wolves can find no sheep and are starving, alas. We'll see more of this. If stem cells and regenerative medicine explodes, you'll see nurses giving more curative injections while surgeons look for work. If 'Watson' creates an AI that can dependably hand out burgers and fries, God Help Us All. A small rural house with some farm land would be a good idea... All of the above relates to the question, what would actually happen if we did have 'Star Trek' technology? While the series was inspiring, they never really answered the question of how an economy with unlimited energy and Replicators is supposed to work. (Sigh! - probably a kind of socialism and they didn't want to say that) My long term investment advice: invest in dividend paying stocks in tobacco, alcohol and Australian bonds (tourism and commodities and they have a near monopoly on weird-ass animals). Ask yourself, 'if almost everything changes, what probably won't?.
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
Only a kind of socialism? Why do you think they wore red uniforms? :) http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html BTW, concerning government spending, how much of that goes to the 1%? 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com ** I absolutely hate to admit it but these disruptive technologies will force income redistribution on the world to a degree never seen before. Indeed, I think that's already starting to happen. While mobs in NYC protest the evil 1%, wiser heads understand that this 1% now pays 43% of NYC tax revenue. Driving them out of town would be financial suicide. Skewing any tax base in the name of being fair creates a potential disaster in an economic downturn as revenue vanishes from big payers while the populace applies for food stamps .. but as Futurama reminds us, you gotta do, what you gotta do. One of the reasons for deflationary forces is job loss and that's going to happen to banks, utilities, oil companies, and state governments that can't find enough revenue, even after they triple car registration$ and huge increases in property taxes (they will be forced to go after things that are most fixed and simple to account for). VAT tax revenues will plunge as more people 'do for themselves' with free energy and cut out the tax paying middleman. It will, however, be an *absolute delight to watch greedy, sociopathic corporate executives turn on each other, fighting to steal what the deflated masses can no longer provide. - *like MF Global stealing speculators money. The poor wolves can find no sheep and are starving, alas. We'll see more of this. If stem cells and regenerative medicine explodes, you'll see nurses giving more curative injections while surgeons look for work. If 'Watson' creates an AI that can dependably hand out burgers and fries, God Help Us All. A small rural house with some farm land would be a good idea... All of the above relates to the question, *what would actually happen if we did have 'Star Trek' technology? *While the series was inspiring, they never really answered the question of how an economy with unlimited energy and Replicators is supposed to work. (Sigh! - probably a kind of socialism and they didn't want to say that) My long term investment advice: invest in dividend paying stocks in tobacco, alcohol and Australian bonds (tourism and commodities and they have a near monopoly on weird-ass animals). Ask yourself, 'if almost everything changes, what probably won't?. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some discretion, for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen.
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
So, a direct estimation is not possible. I wonder then if some kind of parameter could be used to analyze that. I guess trying to be fair is better. 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com ** How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some *discretion, *for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
my estimate is the the 1% will try to privatize LENR, like they privatize globalization those 30 last years (since reagan/thatcher)... that is the danger but lenr hace bad caracteristic for that unlike green helps 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com ** How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some *discretion, *for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen.
RE: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
Yup, just like the movie, Chain Reaction with Morgan Freeman. The beauty is Cold Fusion=decentralized society, Hot Fusion = centralized society. Go, Cold Fusion! Didn't Heinlein once write a story about some soldiers who discovered free energy and went AWOL, in consequence? From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Alain Sepeda Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:12 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy my estimate is the the 1% will try to privatize LENR, like they privatize globalization those 30 last years (since reagan/thatcher)... that is the danger but lenr hace bad caracteristic for that unlike green helps 2011/12/14 Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. You have to allow for some discretion, for God's sake! They invest in Congress (lobbyists, re-election cash and outright bribes) and get - not outright cash in return but rather legislation that inhibits competition, or tax cuts, or regulations that protect their profits. Only rarely does cash go directly to the rich, as with agricultural subsidies. Michael Moore finally got a few brain cells working and realized (gasp!) that President Obama was elected with huge does of cash from Too Big To Fail Banks. (well, duh) By the way, bribery can be very easy and almost impossible to trace. In the old days, they fixed a horse race and told a select few what race 'looked good'. Today, they do it with stocks or commodity bets (ask Hillary C. about this one). As 60 minutes pointed out this past month, insider trading is legal for Congressmen.
Re: [Vo]:Cold Fusion and the Star Trek Economy
On 14 December 2011 21:24, Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: How much government spending goes to the richest 1%? Very little, I think. This is the very problem of current socialist policy. However, if we use 99% of collected tax revenues to support purchasing power of middle class, that is we have basic income economic system. Then the most of the tax what rich are paying will return to the rich. That is because exactly 100 percent of the rich people's income is payed from the purchasing power of the middle class. Therefore we should practice economic policy that maximizes the purchasing power of middle class. With proper economic policy we can greatly expand the middle class. This means huge increase of salary for the Walmart capitalists. Because it is obvious, that no other than middle class does pay their salary. Poor people are, although numerous but still lousy customers. You just need to understand, that in basic income economy, almost all tax revenues are returned for the rich people! And also you must understand that, basic income will also abolish government as useless, because in basic income economy there are only three social classes. Middle class, rich people, and super rich people. We have no need for welfare state or free education and medicare, because everyone has plenty of money to pay for their basic needs. What they had in Star Trek, they had basic income economy. That is beyond socialism and capitalism. Because basic income economy is the only proper way to practice free market economy. Because market economy is based on purchasing power of median consumer and basic income economy will maximize the median purchasing power of median consumer. –Jouni
