Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 27 Apr 2017 08:56:36 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Even a few grams per year, per person would be problematic... in a few >billion years . ...by which time the sun will turn into a red giant, and evaporate what's left of the oceans anyway. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
Brian— You sound a bit cynical. It may be nothing more than fake news. Bob Cook From: Brian Ahern<mailto:ahern_br...@msn.com> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:55 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity? This is a shameful announcement. It makes the populace think there is a wonderful new energy technology. This is funding season and this is a tawdry example of scientific pandering. From: Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:36 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity? Robin Wiki agrees that "quantum efficiency" is the ratio of the number of charge carriers (in the case of water that would be protons) which are collected by the solar cell, compared to the number of photons of a given energy incident on the solar cell. This is essentially what you said and it means that the useful efficiency of solar water splitting, in terms of hydrogen output per unit of area, is limited to UV irradiance, which is a fraction of normal sunlight. The bond enthalpy of OH-H is 268 kJ/mol or 2.78 eV which is essentially in the UV range for photons. Most UV is captured by the atmosphere but enough gets through to make it interesting. The band gap of silicon for photovoltaic is only 1 eV but the coupling losses are huge so the comparative efficiency is below 20%. Thus splitting water via sunlight would be viable, especially for automotive uses once the problem of storage is solved. Moreover, the "waste" visible sunlight not robust enough to split water can still produce electricity so a combined facility would be advantageous. To put this new report about overunity water splitting into perspective - it should mean that making hydrogen as well as making electricity are complementary processes - and once the storage problem is solved, hydrogen could be the favored output. Fortunately, there is a German company which seems to have solved the hydrogen storage problem in a unique way - as a solute not requiring pressurization. http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/ Energy Storage - Hydrogenious Technologies<http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/> www.hydrogenious.net Hydrogenious Technologies developed the breakthrough in hydrogen storage. The safe and efficient storage of hydrogen in Liquid Organic Hydrogen Carriers (LOHC). This has "automotive" applications written all over it. Will the new Tesla be a German startup which is quickly snatched up by VW or Mercedes? mix...@bigpond.com<mailto:mix...@bigpond.com> wrote: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:32:42 -0700: Hi, [snip] A double miracle since ostensible OU was reported by Nature, the anti-miracle(anti-LENR) mag... There may or may not be an LENR connection here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170425124226.htm An overunity giant step toward producing hydrogen fuel? Essentially, they created what is known as a quantum dot photoelectrochemical cell that catalytically achieved quantum efficiency for hydrogen gas production exceeding 100% -- approaching 114% ... ...but hey - we can be happy, even elated with 99% since solar to electric only gives about 18%. However, you may want to contemplate how quantum efficiency differs from the normal variety... I think quantum yield is just the number of electrons per photon. In which case it's not surprising that they exceed 100%, since some high energy photons are capable of creating multiple free electrons. This may happen when a high energy photon is absorbed, ionizing an atom and leaving the electron with enough excess kinetic energy to ionize another atom. Hence two free electrons iso one. Last year (I think) I tried pointing out to Mills that his optical spectrum was ideal for taking advantage of this principle, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (Most of the energy he produces is in the UV to soft x-ray band.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
The quantum dots seem to me to be large coherent quantum systems—an entangled systems. LENR is a quantum dot system that allows the transfer of nuclear potential energy to phonic energy or energetic free electrons and/or conductive holes.The high temperature dots with strong lattice bonds are the ones that work well for LENR, since they do not melt easily. However, at low energy and infrequent coupling even biological systems may be able to take advantage of the available nuclei in a quantum dot system. The discussion in Wikipedia under “quantum dot” is informative. Per Robin’s comments about Yan etal. work on the Pb-S quantum dot system, it would appear that the dots can be fabricated to size and address a variety of energy resonances. No wonder there is coupling with the nuclear magnetic resonances of some nuclei. A variable magnetic field assures some coupling some of the time. Bob Cook from: Jones Beene<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 8:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity? To compare apples-to-apples - for approximating the optimal use of solar energy, whether it is solar-photovoltaic, or solar photoelectrochemical (hydrogen output) or both - here are some ballpark numbers which incorporate the new water splitting research of Yan, as reported in Nature. For the idealist, the end result is looking brighter that ever before, so to speak. We could be on the verge of solving the future energy dilemma in a way that pleases almost everyone except the owners of the power grid. For solar-photovoltaics, 100 sq meters of cells/mirrors could capture approximately 100 kW of spectral irradiance of which 15% is in the UV range. Higher elevation is better for UV. Commercial solar panels can convert about 18% of this in the form of DC electricity, with losses to convert to AC. The OU water splitter, however, is 114% efficient so even though only 15% of the radiation is UV, the net output could be very close to the same percentage as photovoltaic. But of course, the better option is to combine the two and have both hydrogen and electricity as the outputs. Thus, an optimized home roof of the future can supply both the electrical power, heating and the transportation fuel for several cars, and with energy left over to sell. This scenario is significantly enhanced if we are presented with the hybrid option, which would be to use the hydrogen output as an intermediate fuel, and the electric output to power a laser, such that the Holmlid effect can be implemented. We end up massive amounts of heat/hydrogen/kWH, and at moderate cost and off-grid. The one drawback is that the energy is not fully renewable, in that some hydrogen is annihilated or converted into dark matter. Even a few grams per year, per person would be problematic... in a few billion years . The bond enthalpy of OH-H is 268 kJ/mol or 2.78 eV which is essentially in the UV range for photons. Most UV is captured by the atmosphere but enough gets through to make it interesting. The band gap of silicon for photovoltaic is only 1 eV but the coupling losses are huge so the comparative efficiency is below 20%. Thus splitting water via sunlight would be viable, especially for automotive uses once the problem of storage is solved. Moreover, the "waste" visible sunlight not robust enough to split water can still produce electricity so a combined facility would be advantageous. To put this new report about overunity water splitting into perspective - it should mean that making hydrogen as well as making electricity are complementary processes - and once the storage problem is solved, hydrogen could be the favored output. Fortunately, there is a German company which seems to have solved the hydrogen storage problem in a unique way - as a solute not requiring pressurization. http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/ This has "automotive" applications written all over it. Will the new Tesla be a German startup which is quickly snatched up by VW or Mercedes?
Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
This is a shameful announcement. It makes the populace think there is a wonderful new energy technology. This is funding season and this is a tawdry example of scientific pandering. From: Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 10:36 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity? Robin Wiki agrees that "quantum efficiency" is the ratio of the number of charge carriers (in the case of water that would be protons) which are collected by the solar cell, compared to the number of photons of a given energy incident on the solar cell. This is essentially what you said and it means that the useful efficiency of solar water splitting, in terms of hydrogen output per unit of area, is limited to UV irradiance, which is a fraction of normal sunlight. The bond enthalpy of OH-H is 268 kJ/mol or 2.78 eV which is essentially in the UV range for photons. Most UV is captured by the atmosphere but enough gets through to make it interesting. The band gap of silicon for photovoltaic is only 1 eV but the coupling losses are huge so the comparative efficiency is below 20%. Thus splitting water via sunlight would be viable, especially for automotive uses once the problem of storage is solved. Moreover, the "waste" visible sunlight not robust enough to split water can still produce electricity so a combined facility would be advantageous. To put this new report about overunity water splitting into perspective - it should mean that making hydrogen as well as making electricity are complementary processes - and once the storage problem is solved, hydrogen could be the favored output. Fortunately, there is a German company which seems to have solved the hydrogen storage problem in a unique way - as a solute not requiring pressurization. http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/ Energy Storage - Hydrogenious Technologies<http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/> www.hydrogenious.net Hydrogenious Technologies developed the breakthrough in hydrogen storage. The safe and efficient storage of hydrogen in Liquid Organic Hydrogen Carriers (LOHC). This has "automotive" applications written all over it. Will the new Tesla be a German startup which is quickly snatched up by VW or Mercedes? mix...@bigpond.com<mailto:mix...@bigpond.com> wrote: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:32:42 -0700: Hi, [snip] A double miracle since ostensible OU was reported by Nature, the anti-miracle(anti-LENR) mag... There may or may not be an LENR connection here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170425124226.htm An overunity giant step toward producing hydrogen fuel? Essentially, they created what is known as a quantum dot photoelectrochemical cell that catalytically achieved quantum efficiency for hydrogen gas production exceeding 100% -- approaching 114% ... ...but hey - we can be happy, even elated with 99% since solar to electric only gives about 18%. However, you may want to contemplate how quantum efficiency differs from the normal variety... I think quantum yield is just the number of electrons per photon. In which case it's not surprising that they exceed 100%, since some high energy photons are capable of creating multiple free electrons. This may happen when a high energy photon is absorbed, ionizing an atom and leaving the electron with enough excess kinetic energy to ionize another atom. Hence two free electrons iso one. Last year (I think) I tried pointing out to Mills that his optical spectrum was ideal for taking advantage of this principle, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (Most of the energy he produces is in the UV to soft x-ray band.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
To compare apples-to-apples - for approximating the optimal use of solar energy, whether it is solar-photovoltaic, or solar photoelectrochemical (hydrogen output) or both - here are some ballpark numbers which incorporate the new water splitting research of Yan, as reported in Nature. For the idealist, the end result is looking brighter that ever before, so to speak. We could be on the verge of solving the future energy dilemma in a way that pleases almost everyone except the owners of the power grid. For solar-photovoltaics, 100 sq meters of cells/mirrors could capture approximately 100 kW of spectral irradiance of which 15% is in the UV range. Higher elevation is better for UV. Commercial solar panels can convert about 18% of this in the form of DC electricity, with losses to convert to AC. The OU water splitter, however, is 114% efficient so even though only 15% of the radiation is UV, the net output could be very close to the same percentage as photovoltaic. But of course, the better option is to combine the two and have both hydrogen and electricity as the outputs. Thus, an optimized home roof of the future can supply both the electrical power, heating and the transportation fuel for several cars, and with energy left over to sell. This scenario is significantly enhanced if we are presented with the hybrid option, which would be to use the hydrogen output as an intermediate fuel, and the electric output to power a laser, such that the Holmlid effect can be implemented. We end up massive amounts of heat/hydrogen/kWH, and at moderate cost and off-grid. The one drawback is that the energy is not fully renewable, in that some hydrogen is annihilated or converted into dark matter. Even a few grams per year, per person would be problematic... in a few billion years . The bond enthalpy of OH-H is 268 kJ/mol or 2.78 eV which is essentially in the UV range for photons. Most UV is captured by the atmosphere but enough gets through to make it interesting. The band gap of silicon for photovoltaic is only 1 eV but the coupling losses are huge so the comparative efficiency is below 20%. Thus splitting water via sunlight would be viable, especially for automotive uses once the problem of storage is solved. Moreover, the "waste" visible sunlight not robust enough to split water can still produce electricity so a combined facility would be advantageous. To put this new report about overunity water splitting into perspective - it should mean that making hydrogen as well as making electricity are complementary processes - and once the storage problem is solved, hydrogen could be the favored output. Fortunately, there is a German company which seems to have solved the hydrogen storage problem in a unique way - as a solute not requiring pressurization. http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/ This has "automotive" applications written all over it. Will the new Tesla be a German startup which is quickly snatched up by VW or Mercedes?
Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
Robin Wiki agrees that "quantum efficiency" is the ratio of the number of charge carriers (in the case of water that would be protons) which are collected by the solar cell, compared to the number of photons of a given energy incident on the solar cell. This is essentially what you said and it means that the useful efficiency of solar water splitting, in terms of hydrogen output per unit of area, is limited to UV irradiance, which is a fraction of normal sunlight. The bond enthalpy of OH-H is 268 kJ/mol or 2.78 eV which is essentially in the UV range for photons. Most UV is captured by the atmosphere but enough gets through to make it interesting. The band gap of silicon for photovoltaic is only 1 eV but the coupling losses are huge so the comparative efficiency is below 20%. Thus splitting water via sunlight would be viable, especially for automotive uses once the problem of storage is solved. Moreover, the "waste" visible sunlight not robust enough to split water can still produce electricity so a combined facility would be advantageous. To put this new report about overunity water splitting into perspective - it should mean that making hydrogen as well as making electricity are complementary processes - and once the storage problem is solved, hydrogen could be the favored output. Fortunately, there is a German company which seems to have solved the hydrogen storage problem in a unique way - as a solute not requiring pressurization. http://www.hydrogenious.net/en/energy-storage/ This has "automotive" applications written all over it. Will the new Tesla be a German startup which is quickly snatched up by VW or Mercedes? mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:32:42 -0700: Hi, [snip] A double miracle since ostensible OU was reported by Nature, the anti-miracle(anti-LENR) mag... There may or may not be an LENR connection here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170425124226.htm An overunity giant step toward producing hydrogen fuel? Essentially, they created what is known as a quantum dot photoelectrochemical cell that catalytically achieved quantum efficiency for hydrogen gas production exceeding 100% -- approaching 114% ... ...but hey - we can be happy, even elated with 99% since solar to electric only gives about 18%. However, you may want to contemplate how quantum efficiency differs from the normal variety... I think quantum yield is just the number of electrons per photon. In which case it's not surprising that they exceed 100%, since some high energy photons are capable of creating multiple free electrons. This may happen when a high energy photon is absorbed, ionizing an atom and leaving the electron with enough excess kinetic energy to ionize another atom. Hence two free electrons iso one. Last year (I think) I tried pointing out to Mills that his optical spectrum was ideal for taking advantage of this principle, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (Most of the energy he produces is in the UV to soft x-ray band.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:32:42 -0700: Hi, [snip] >A double miracle since ostensible OU was reported by Nature, the >anti-miracle(anti-LENR) mag... > >There may or may not be an LENR connection here. > >https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170425124226.htm > >An overunity giant step toward producing hydrogen fuel? Essentially, >they created what is known as a quantum dot photoelectrochemical cell >that catalytically achieved quantum efficiency for hydrogen gas >production exceeding 100% -- approaching 114% ... > >...but hey - we can be happy, even elated with 99% since solar to >electric only gives about 18%. However, you may want to contemplate how >quantum efficiency differs from the normal variety... I think quantum yield is just the number of electrons per photon. In which case it's not surprising that they exceed 100%, since some high energy photons are capable of creating multiple free electrons. This may happen when a high energy photon is absorbed, ionizing an atom and leaving the electron with enough excess kinetic energy to ionize another atom. Hence two free electrons iso one. Last year (I think) I tried pointing out to Mills that his optical spectrum was ideal for taking advantage of this principle, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (Most of the energy he produces is in the UV to soft x-ray band.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Nature reporting overunity?
A double miracle since ostensible OU was reported by Nature, the anti-miracle(anti-LENR) mag... There may or may not be an LENR connection here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170425124226.htm An overunity giant step toward producing hydrogen fuel? Essentially, they created what is known as a quantum dot photoelectrochemical cell that catalytically achieved quantum efficiency for hydrogen gas production exceeding 100% -- approaching 114% ... ...but hey - we can be happy, even elated with 99% since solar to electric only gives about 18%. However, you may want to contemplate how quantum efficiency differs from the normal variety... Date: April 25, 2017 Source: New Jersey Institute of Technology Summary: ... research focused on efficient production of hydrogen fuel from water by using solar energy and quantum dots, as catalyst - to break down H2O into components of hydrogen and oxygen.
