Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Frank, Just an idea. I know you want to run the system even when the water is off, but you could design the system to momentarily pressurize as long as the apex valve is open, then turn off. Bob At 08:01 PM 9/19/2012, you wrote: I live in the city with gas hot water. Its not for me but its for an isolated cabin. It has a pressurized system, however, I want to transfer hot water to the tank even when the water is off. I think the loop idea may work. It will only transfer a fraction of its flow rate to the tank and many have enough reserve lift to carry the cold water up. It is getting a little late in the season to try it out. -Original Message- From: Robert Dorr rod...@comcast.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat Frank; I made the assumption you are on a city type pressurized water system, therefore no need to lift to roof. If your not, I see the dilemma. Pretty hard to do without some type of pump. Bob At 05:24 PM 9/19/2012, you wrote: Frank, How about just using black hose running in a back and forth direction from the bottom of your roof to its apex, with a temperature sensitive valve at the apex point, and a black hose, from the apex, running down the sunny side of your house into the hot water container in your basement. When the water at the apex of your roof attains a pre-selected temperature the valve opens and lets waterenter the system from the low point of your roof pushing the water into the container in the basement, until the temperature at the apex lowers to a predetermined temperature and shuts off. Repeat. Bob snip Thanks Bob. The problem is that cold water must then be lifted to the roof from the basement. It takes lift to get it to go up.
Re: Fwd: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Frank, How about just using black hose running in a back and forth direction from the bottom of your roof to its apex, with a temperature sensitive valve at the apex point, and a black hose, from the apex, running down the sunny side of your house into the hot water container in your basement. When the water at the apex of your roof attains a pre-selected temperature the valve opens and lets water enter the system from the low point of your roof pushing the water into the container in the basement, until the temperature at the apex lowers to a predetermined temperature and shuts off. Repeat. Bob At 08:49 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote: What about this? I run a black and white hose up the sunny side of the house from the basement. The bottom of the circulating loop is lower than the tank. I splice the bottom of the loop in with a T that connects to the tank drain. Frank
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
In reply to fznidar...@aol.com's message of Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:36:46 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] I can think of no way to place the hose on the roof and get it to work. If the hose is lower than the tank it conveys hot water to the tank and shuts down the loop current when the sun goes down thus holding hot water in the tank. ...but when the Sun goes down, that's exactly where you want the hot water. :) Besides, by having the tank up high, it provides gravity feed pressure to your hot water taps. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Frank, How about just using black hose running in a back and forth direction from the bottom of your roof to its apex, with a temperature sensitive valve at the apex point, and a black hose, from the apex, running down the sunny side of your house into the hot water container in your basement. When the water at the apex of your roof attains a pre-selected temperature the valve opens and lets waterenter the system from the low point of your roof pushing the water into the container in the basement, until the temperature at the apex lowers to a predetermined temperature and shuts off. Repeat. Bob snip Thanks Bob. The problem is that cold water must then be lifted to the roof from the basement. It takes lift to get it to go up.
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Frank; I made the assumption you are on a city type pressurized water system, therefore no need to lift to roof. If your not, I see the dilemma. Pretty hard to do without some type of pump. Bob At 05:24 PM 9/19/2012, you wrote: Frank, How about just using black hose running in a back and forth direction from the bottom of your roof to its apex, with a temperature sensitive valve at the apex point, and a black hose, from the apex, running down the sunny side of your house into the hot water container in your basement. When the water at the apex of your roof attains a pre-selected temperature the valve opens and lets waterenter the system from the low point of your roof pushing the water into the container in the basement, until the temperature at the apex lowers to a predetermined temperature and shuts off. Repeat. Bob snip Thanks Bob. The problem is that cold water must then be lifted to the roof from the basement. It takes lift to get it to go up.
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
I live in the city with gas hot water. Its not for me but its for an isolated cabin. It has a pressurized system, however, I want to transfer hot water to the tank even when the water is off. I think the loop idea may work. It will only transfer a fraction of its flow rate to the tank and many have enough reserve lift to carry the cold water up. It is getting a little late in the season to try it out. -Original Message- From: Robert Dorr rod...@comcast.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat Frank; I made the assumption you are on a city type pressurized water system,therefore no need to lift to roof. If your not, I see the dilemma. Prettyhard to do without some type of pump. Bob At 05:24 PM 9/19/2012, you wrote: Frank, How about just usingblack hose running in a back and forth direction from the bottom of yourroof to its apex, with a temperature sensitive valve at the apex point,and a black hose, from the apex, running down the sunny side of yourhouse into the hot water container in your basement. When the water atthe apex of your roof attains a pre-selected temperature the valve opensand lets waterenter the system from the low point of your roof pushingthe water into the container in the basement, until the temperature atthe apex lowers to a predetermined temperature and shuts off.Repeat. Bob snip Thanks Bob. The problem is that cold water must then be lifted tothe roof from the basement. It takes lift to get it to goup.
[Vo]:question about passive solar heat
I know of a few locations where it would be nice to have passive solar hot water in the summer. I have noted that a black garden hose in the sun produces hot water. The hose could be placed on a roof. The problem is getting this heat into a storage tank passively. The hot water tank would have to be mounted higher than than the hose. I would like to employ the ordinary basement hot water tank. Hot water rises and will not go down to the basement tank. Is there any fluid that sinks when heated? Can a dissolved gas be somehow employed to make hot water sink? Any ideas? Frank Znidarsic
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
How about keeping the tank on the roof and using a thermosiphon [1] or, better still, a passive vapor heat pipe [2] to transfer heat to the tank from a collector below? The height difference between the collector and the tank would only have to be a foot or two and you'd want the tank on the roof anyway to provide pressure when using the hot water. [mg] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosiphon [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 4:42 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: I know of a few locations where it would be nice to have passive solar hot water in the summer. I have noted that a black garden hose in the sun produces hot water. The hose could be placed on a roof. The problem is getting this heat into a storage tank passively. The hot water tank would have to be mounted higher than than the hose. I would like to employ the ordinary basement hot water tank. Hot water rises and will not go down to the basement tank. Is there any fluid that sinks when heated? Can a dissolved gas be somehow employed to make hot water sink? Any ideas? Frank Znidarsic
RE: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Is there any fluid that sinks when heated? Frank Znidarsic Doubt it since it would hint at suppressed vibrational modes - OTOH - there is one candidate that I know of - a complex sugar molecule that turns solid on heating, and then reverts to liquid on cooling. It is the only one that does this. However, I do not know if the solid is denser or not. It probably is not denser, despite the fact most solids are denser, or they would have mentioned it in the study. http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/to_freeze_add_heat.htm l There are a few common elements or molecules that are less dense as solids, and will float on their liquid counterpart: * gallium - 5.91 (solid) vs 6.095 (liquid) * bismuth - 9.78 (solid) vs 10.05 (liquid) * germanium - 5.323 (solid) vs 5.60 (liquid) * silicon - 2.3290 (solid) vs 2.57 (liquid) * water - 0.917 (solid) vs 0.998 (liquid) From the study above: We report a reversible liquid-solid transition upon heating of a simple solution composed of a-cyclodextrine (alpha-CD), water, and 4-methylpyridine. These solutions are homogeneous and transparent at ambient temperature and solidify when heated to temperatures between 45° and 75°. Quasielastic and elastic neutron scattering show that molecular motions are slowed down in the solid and that crystalline order is established. The solution freezes on heating. This process is fully reversible, on cooling the solid melts. A rearrangement of hydrogen bonds is postulated to be responsible for the observed phenomenon. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
In reply to fznidar...@aol.com's message of Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:42:46 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] I know of a few locations where it would be nice to have passive solar hot water in the summer. I have noted that a black garden hose in the sun produces hot water. The hose could be placed on a roof. The problem is getting this heat into a storage tank passively. The hot water tank would have to be mounted higher than than the hose. I would like to employ the ordinary basement hot water tank. Hot water rises and will not go down to the basement tank. Such solar hot water systems are common. Previously the tank used to placed on outside of the roof above the collector. Nowadays, more frequently inside the roof cavity. (both looks and works better). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Frank, The problem is getting this heat into a storage tank passively. The hot water tank would have to be mounted higher than the hose. I would like to employ the ordinary basement hot water tank. Hot water rises and will not go down to the basement tank. Here is an idea for a system where a hot liquid can be engineered to fall, once it has been heated - and be replaced by a colder stream of the same liquid which will rise in a closed loop; within a magnetic field - so that you can keep the storage tank in the basement and put the hose on the roof. It would employ a magnetic slurry - not unlike ferrofluid but made with a ferromagnetic nanopowder which has a low Curie point. A few low-chrome stainless alloys would be fine for this - Curie temp around 100C. There would be a vertical magnetized iron pipe with the highest field gradient on the roof. Convection and magnetism work together on the upside. Once the ferrofluid is heated on the roof above its Curie point, it should have a tendency to be replaced by cooler fluid from below which is attracted by the magnetic gradient. Would it work? Not sure, and it would require a lot of nanopowder to try. After writing this, I did a quick search to see if anyone had thought of this before - and yes, others have come up with similar ideas. Here is an essay which is not exactly the same thing, but with some relevant citations http://www.freewebs.com/sunilphdstudents1234/Pavan%20Kumar%20Bharti/6a.pdf attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
Thanks all. The sugar thing might work in some kind of heat pipe. I am looking for an cheep solution with a hose and an existing hot water tank. A tee in the drain line of the tank that then proceeds out the cellar door with a 1/2 white and 1/2 black circulating loop would work. I don't like the idea of throwing the hose in the yard, however, it would work. I can think of no way to place the hose on the roof and get it to work. If the hose is lower than the tank it conveys hot water to the tank and shuts down the loop current when the sun goes down thus holding hot water in the tank. If I ever figure this out, it will not be cold fusion, however, it could be a nice product. Frank Z -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Sep 18, 2012 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat In reply to fznidar...@aol.com's message of Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:42:46 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] I know of a few locations where it would be nice to have passive solar hot water in the summer. I have noted that a black garden hose in the sun produces hot water. The hose could be placed on a roof. The problem is getting this heat into a storage tank passively. The hot water tank would have to be mounted higher than than the hose. I would like to employ the ordinary basement hot water tank. Hot water rises and will not go down to the basement tank. Such solar hot water systems are common. Previously the tank used to placed on outside of the roof above the collector. Nowadays, more frequently inside the roof cavity. (both looks and works better). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Fwd: [Vo]:question about passive solar heat
What about this? I run a black and white hose up the sunny side of the house from the basement. The bottom of the circulating loop is lower than the tank. I splice the bottom of the loop in with a T that connects to the tank drain. Frank
