Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test -- end June?
* Andrea Rossi April 19th, 2014 at 6:14 PM Frank Acland: It is absolutely sure that the report will be published, whatever the results, positive or negative as they might be. This is the imposition given to us from the Third Indipendent Party Professors as a condition to accept to make the test. They demanded that they will publish the results inconditionally, even if the results will be negative. What said above is granted. What follows is an opinion of mine, that could be wrong: the report should be published by the end of June. My opinion is based upon the fact that yesterday I have talked with two of the Commettee members and they said that possibly the publication could be made by the end of June. I did not get any anticipation regarding the calculation of the efficiency, while they repeated to me that to analyse millions of data takes time. Warm Regards, A.R.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
Yes. Sweden is the rumor for testing - which does not come from Lewan, but his book indicates that he knows more than he is free to tell. Uppsala has definite motivation, given the peer criticism of the prior report. They would like to clear their name with a better report. Another rumor today is that the level of gain (COP) is closer to Mizuno than to Rossi's prior demos. Those prior demos were criticized for measurement technique (wet steam etc). Many observers hope the COP is at least 4. If it is 2.5 instead of 4, then we will not be looking at moving to commercialization on a rapid pace. From: Alan Fletcher Sweden, most likely Uppsala.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
If the Rossi has the proper control of his device established and positive thermal feedback of adequate gain is achieved then the COP should not be an issue. It will be difficult to control the system if thermal delays dominate the feedback timing or other variables complicate the transfer of heat away from the core. In these situations I would be more concerned about keeping the COP low enough to avoid thermal runaway. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 10:22 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi long term test Yes. Sweden is the rumor fortesting – which does not come from Lewan, but his book indicates that heknows more than he is free to tell. Uppsala has definite motivation, given the peercriticism of the prior report. They would like to clear their name with abetter report. Another rumor today isthat the level of gain (COP) is closer to Mizuno than to Rossi’s priordemos. Those prior demos were criticized for measurement technique (wet steametc). Many observers hope theCOP is at least 4. If it is 2.5 instead of 4, then we will not be looking atmoving to commercialization on a rapid pace. From:Alan Fletcher Sweden, most likely Uppsala.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
From: David Roberson If the Rossi has the proper control of his device established and positive thermal feedback of adequate gain is achieved then the COP should not be an issue. Dave, Doesn’t that assume that the source of the gain is nuclear? If the source of gain is not “nuclear” (per se), then we must ask - what if the gain is limited to a level which is a low multiple of what we have heretofore defined as “chemical”? Control, and positive feedback are very important, but now there is an upper limit. Yes, we can argue that any gain should allow infinite COP if it can be fed back in toto, but thermal feedback may not be adequate to provide P-in when there is a ceiling on the net energy available from the underlying reaction. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
Jones and Dave-- I think the control is a two parameter issue, temperature and external magnetic field strength. An increased temperature prevents a large scale excursion of the reaction, but does not control the situation on a nano scale. The external magnetic field, H, induces an internal magnetic field, B, in the nano Ni particles and initiates a local reaction. The temperature increases and changes the magnetic susceptibility of the Ni and reduces the B field accordingly. The reaction is not too fast to be controlled, since there is a time constant with the increase and decrease of the nano B fields as a function of the changing H field and temperatures. A key parameter in the time constant is the size of the Ni nano particles. Ahern noted that less than 3 nm is bad because of run away reaction. The smaller the size the quicker the reaction responds to a changing magnetic field. Pulsing the H field is important in limiting the reaction. I think that National Instruments helped Rossi work out the dynamics and control of the reactor. NI would be perfect for such a task. Bob - Original Message - From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi long term test From: David Roberson If the Rossi has the proper control of his device established and positive thermal feedback of adequate gain is achieved then the COP should not be an issue. Dave, Doesn’t that assume that the source of the gain is nuclear? If the source of gain is not “nuclear” (per se), then we must ask - what if the gain is limited to a level which is a low multiple of what we have heretofore defined as “chemical”? Control, and positive feedback are very important, but now there is an upper limit. Yes, we can argue that any gain should allow infinite COP if it can be fed back in toto, but thermal feedback may not be adequate to provide P-in when there is a ceiling on the net energy available from the underlying reaction. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
Well, this is not a rumor. It's just a trivial observation that Rossi does not do anything serious that is not with that Swedish group. 2014-04-11 11:21 GMT-03:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: Yes. Sweden is the rumor for testing -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Well, this is not a rumor. It's just a trivial observation that Rossi does not do anything serious that is not with that Swedish group. True. But last time they came to Italy. Lewan's book describes how Rossi brought a machine to Sweden for a demonstration. It did not work, for the usual reasons. He glued it together at the last minute, and instead of waiting two days, he tried to run it the next day. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
as an IT engineer, I know that pathology and we are trained to avoid that irresistible tendency for innovative guys... patrick de gayardon died from this last minute change http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_de_Gayardon I'm lucky not (yet) to work on life support application. However I know what is an epic failure for a demo. the developer, the innovator, should never be the boss, or failure should be acceptable. 2014-04-11 18:51 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Well, this is not a rumor. It's just a trivial observation that Rossi does not do anything serious that is not with that Swedish group. True. But last time they came to Italy. Lewan's book describes how Rossi brought a machine to Sweden for a demonstration. It did not work, for the usual reasons. He glued it together at the last minute, and instead of waiting two days, he tried to run it the next day. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
Alain, I am glad that after reading the book it is obvious for us all that one cannot just solve the theory or the experiment. It does not lead to any result. What makes me hopeful is that people with money has come in to the picture. Investors mostly understand the need for a complete organization. It is possible that grants (I have no experience) are given only because of scientific / theoretical technology merits, then that is another proof of that government should be forbidden to make business decision as they are useless. I can guarantee that as soon as there is a way to communicate the obstacles and the possibilities with LENR ther will be a long line of investors on the stage. I hope Rossi will be forced to make such data available and that will help the whole 'industry'. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650 Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort. PJM On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote: as an IT engineer, I know that pathology and we are trained to avoid that irresistible tendency for innovative guys... patrick de gayardon died from this last minute change http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_de_Gayardon I'm lucky not (yet) to work on life support application. However I know what is an epic failure for a demo. the developer, the innovator, should never be the boss, or failure should be acceptable. 2014-04-11 18:51 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Well, this is not a rumor. It's just a trivial observation that Rossi does not do anything serious that is not with that Swedish group. True. But last time they came to Italy. Lewan's book describes how Rossi brought a machine to Sweden for a demonstration. It did not work, for the usual reasons. He glued it together at the last minute, and instead of waiting two days, he tried to run it the next day. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
As an engineer, I would love to take on that product challenge. I am moving to a cold climate area. Cold climate heat pumps still only produce a COP of about 2-3 and have a lot of control to keep the exchanger from becoming frozen (frequent defrost cycles). It is a split unit that still needs an outside unit and inside unit with plumbing between. Yet these heat pumps are still the lowest cost heat means, unless you chop your own wood and burn it in a wood stove. The heat pumps are cheaper than pellet wood heating. I can imagine a home/industrial heater for these climes where a COP=2.5 would be a highly competitive product for heating. It could be as easy to install as putting it on the floor and plugging it into the wall with no outside plumbing or ventilation required, just a thermostat. This winter, the cost LPG skyrocketed due to shortage of supply. Farmers were hit with early winter temperatures and used the gas to heat their silos to dry their corn. Even as the LPG costs come down, a 2.5 COP LENR heater would be 1/3 the cost of LPG heating. There are a lot of industrial applications where high temperature heating is required and no heat pumps apply today - ovens in particular for everything from soldering, ceramic firing, concrete calcining, aluminum making, wood kiln drying, etc - all within the temperatures of the HotCat. And they use huge amounts of heat to the point that their bottom line depends on the cost of heat. Once there is a business/product at COP=2.5, I don't think high COP is that far behind. Long operation at COP=2.5 proves LENR is real and depending on the duration could prove it is nuclear or at least a real but unknown highly desirable phenomenon. Investment will spring up everywhere. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: If it is 2.5 instead of 4, then we will not be looking at moving to commercialization on a rapid pace.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
At 08:37 AM 4/9/2014, Daniel Rocha wrote: I hope this is the 6 month test he promised, heh! Yes. Teemu April 10th, 2014 at 8:30 AM Dear Andrea Rossi, When you say that the Professors are conducting their work in a neutral laboratory, do you mean they are still in your premises, or instead situated in a laboratory that is not owned by you? Best Regards, Teemu Andrea Rossi April 10th, 2014 at 6:02 PM Teemu: The Professors have worked and are working in a laboratory that is not owned by us, is totally out of our premises and that we never used before. We knew of it few days before the beginning of the test and sent there the E-Cat. It is located in a Country that is not Italy and is not USA. I cannot give further information, but, obviously, the precise location where the test will have been completed will be described in the Report that will be written by the Third Indipendent Party. When we arrived there for the assembling of the reactor, some of the components of the t.i.p. were already there for the set up. Warm Regards, A.R. Koen Vandewalle April 10th, 2014 at 6:37 PM Dear Andrea, Supposed that at the beginning of the test, the Professors did discover that the E-Cat does what is is meant to do. One question that should be asked: how much energy can produce one E-Cat ? Did you make agreements on this item ? And when the answer is that it continues in eternity to catalyze energy, then the test will never be over. A catalyzer is not consumed . Did you agree on limits in time or amount of energy ? Kind Regards, Koen. P.S. : the congratulations were not for the results of these tests, but for the respect that is finally given to your work. Andrea Rossi April 10th, 2014 at 9:20 PM Koen Vandewalle: No, the total endurance , or the life-span of the charge and the E-Cat are not in the protocol of the experiment. Obviously, if the exhaustion will happen during the experiment, that would be a serendipity. Warm Regards, A.R. Frank Acland April 10th, 2014 at 7:47 PM Dear Andrea, You mentioned you sent your E-Cat to the neutral location when you learned about it. Did you send multiple reactors, or only one? Many thanks, Frank Acland Andrea Rossi April 10th, 2014 at 9:17 PM Frank Acland: We sent 3 of them, as spare parts, but ( this I can say) we did not have breaks or malfunctions, so far, so the spare parts are intact. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 9:19 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: It is located in a Country that is not Italy and is not USA. Maybe China? I am reading Mats Lewan's book right now and am about a third of the way through it. It is well worth reading for the backstory, although I sometimes wonder whether Lewan too readily repeats uncritically the information that has been given to him, as has been said in connection with Isaacson's book about Steve Jobs. Following are companies that Rossi has started or purchased at the point where I am in my reading: - Petroldragon - Omar - Leonardo Corporation - Leonardo Technologies Inc. (different from Leonardo Corp.) - Eon - Energia da Fonti Alternative (EFA) So far the story has been quite an adventure, including a description of a stay for over a year in an Italian jail, where Rossi was in a cell with five other inmates. At one point a secret factory is set up in Florida, which partly manufactures E-Cats and for which there is another blue-collar business that serves as a cover. Sometimes LTI handles a transaction, and sometimes Leonardo Corp. does. Rossi (as you know) starts a Web site called the Journal of Nuclear Physics, which purports to be a peer reviewed journal. I am now convinced that Rossi is exactly as colorful as he gives the impression of being. I am reminded of John Nash. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
At 10:18 PM 4/10/2014, Eric Walker wrote: On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 9:19 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: It is located in a Country that is not Italy and is not USA. Maybe China? Sweden, most likely Uppsala.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi long term test
I hope this is the 6 month test he promised, heh! 2014-04-09 12:16 GMT-03:00 Alan Fletcher a...@well.com: He's been dropping a lot of hints (qualified with could be positive,negative..) Andrea Rossi April 5th, 2014 at 7:55 AMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=841cpage=6#comment-937378 Marco Serra: By my nature, I am an optimistic person. Should I not be, I wouldn't dedicate my life to an enterpreneurial scientific task. Nevertheless, I always said that this work is extremely risky, and that this enterprise is a warship, not a cruiseship. The Third Indipendent Party Test in course is a long run test, never made before from anybody. In this scientific endeavour there is not a history to sustain you when you make something new: every time you, so to speak, have to cut your way through the jungle with machetes. It is always risky, and you always are, or HAVE TO BE, very conservative: conservatively optimist. The test in course is very severe, as no tests before have been and I cannot be sure that the calculations that will be made upon the operation of the Hot Cat, second by second, will be positive. The Professors are collecting millions of data, I do not know the kind of complex calculations the Professors are doing and will do. They have more science than I do and, beyond the hilarious comment of our friend Orsobubu, which obviously made me smile, I am really afraid of the results. After the Arxiv publication I said that a long test run had been scheduled to better understand and this implies that the play was still open. As a logic consequence of these considerations, if I today say that the results can be positive, but also could be negative, I really mean it. Thank you for your permanent attention, Warm Regards, A.R. Andrea Rossi April 5th, 2014 at 1:53 PMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=841cpage=6#comment-937506 Sam Wilson: Thank you for your kind words. I am really worried. Anyway, the work goes on. Warm Regards, A.R. Andrea Rossi April 8th, 2014 at 9:02 PMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=841cpage=6#comment-939181 Frank Acland: I do not know where the report will be published. I agree with you, though. The report will be written by 7 Professors and Physicists of three European Universities, who obviously review each other, and it will be further reviewed by other 7 Professors and Physicists of 7 Universities and Nuclear Physics Institutes of Europe, Asia, America before being proposed for publication. The report will be based upon millions of data collected by the measurement and registration instruments of the Professors and of their Institutes. The whole funded by an European scientific Institute. Warm Regards, A.R. [ Presumably the 3 Universities are Bologna and 2 Swiss as before ] (lenr.qumbu.com -- analyzing the Rossi/Focardi eCat -- and the defkalion hyperion -- Hi, google!) -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
It is common fr people in total distrust to demand useless test. I remember of test by militaries on pigs (napalm or nuke...?) moreover 6 month may give indication of total autonomy, reliability... it is a big version of the tea kettle. when you are in denial, you increase the demand to make it huge... if the client is not in denial but in fear not to be ridiculed by others, they also behave the same 2013/11/13 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com A 6-month test is ridiculous. It does not prove anything that a 1-month test would not prove. A week would probably suffice. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
6 Month test, after all. Frank Acland November 12th, 2013 at 5:51 PM Dear Andrea, 1. Is the current long-term validation for the purpose of getting safety certification for the hot cat? 2. Will the hot cat validation help with safety certification for domestic e-cat systems? 3. Is the domestic e-cat still a priority for your team? Andrea Rossi November 12th, 2013 at 6:16 PM Frank Acland: 1- No, the validation and RD long- term- activity have different purposes: for us, as manufacturers, the purpose is to make good products, for the third indipendent party is to confirm the validation made for a week, verifying in a long term which are the consequences. Obviously, the Ragone number, after a 6 months period, will give more clear indications. 2- Unfortunately, no. This is an issue totally indipendent from what we can do and is very difficult any forecast 3- Priorities are the products we can do and sell. Thanks to you, Warm Regards, A.R. - Original Message - From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:10:01 AM Don't hold your breath : Andrea Rossi November 5th, 2013 at 7:25 AM Marco Serra: Thank you for your attention, I sympathize with you. I do not know when we will publish, because it does not depend on me, but surely within 2014. I dare to foresee before August/September. But this is not an engagement. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
A 6-month test is ridiculous. It does not prove anything that a 1-month test would not prove. A week would probably suffice. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
A 6-month test is getting into Underwriters Laboratory territory. As Rossi says: different purposes On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: A 6-month test is ridiculous. It does not prove anything that a 1-month test would not prove. A week would probably suffice. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
ps : Mark Gibbs and I get his seal of approval -- Frank Acland November 5th, 2013 at 6:30 PM Dear Andrea, Is this the Ragone diagram you stand by? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024×624.png Best wishes, Frank Acland Andrea Rossi November 5th, 2013 at 8:06 PM Frank Acland: Yes, Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
and how long has it been since the 1 MW October test? Two years! -Original Message- From: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Nov 6, 2013 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014) ps : Mark Gibbs and I get his seal of approval -- Frank Acland November 5th, 2013 at 6:30 PM Dear Andrea, Is this the Ragone diagram you stand by? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024×624.png Best wishes, Frank Acland Andrea Rossi November 5th, 2013 at 8:06 PM Frank Acland: Yes, Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
Dear Alan, On 6-11-2013 18:11, Alan Fletcher wrote: Is this the Ragone diagram you stand by? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024×624.png I'm afraid the file is not there anymore, as I get an 404 error. Kind regards, Rob
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
I think this is the same image: http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/rossitests2.jpg On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Rob Dingemans manonbrid...@aim.com wrote: Dear Alan, On 6-11-2013 18:11, Alan Fletcher wrote: Is this the Ragone diagram you stand by? http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024 ×624.png I'm afraid the file is not there anymore, as I get an 404 error. Kind regards, Rob -- Frank Acland Publisher, E-Cat World http://www.e-catworld.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
- Original Message - From: Frank Acland ecatwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:41:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014) I think this is the same image: http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/rossitests2.jpg Stolen -- With all the attributions cropped off. It's funny -- I pulled up the Forbes image this morning ! Still there : http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024x624.png I think that the URL got truncated when I copied the Rossi post into email.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
The new customer is still a mystery (invited visits and all that). This is actually two tests a) Presumably Levi et al b) An internal test. 1MW? Hotcat? Something new? - Original Message - From: fznidar...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:12:55 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014) and how long has it been since the 1 MW October test? Two years!
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
So what are the in process evaluations currently? There was talk of something like an Underwriters Laboratories certification going on. There was talk of the original 1MW plant undergoing evaluation. Are there others? What is the hold-up on manufacturing? On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Don't hold your breath : Andrea Rossi November 5th, 2013 at 7:25 AM Marco Serra: Thank you for your attention, I sympathize with you. I do not know when we will publish, because it does not depend on me, but surely within 2014. I dare to foresee before August/September. But this is not an engagement. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
Alan, On 6-11-2013 21:48, Alan Fletcher wrote: It's funny -- I pulled up the Forbes image this morning ! Still there : http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markgibbs/files/2013/05/130520_ragone_04-1024x624.png Yep I see, but there is a slight difference between those two: The one that works has an x in between while the original has %C3%97 at the same spot, which doesn't work. I think that the URL got truncated when I copied the Rossi post into email. Most likely a conversion error. As you may see the the original link has a very small space followed by an x which is a bit lifted from the baseline! Kind regards, Rob
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014)
I went back to the article : http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html Originally, they just cropped the photo, removing my credits, with a short caption. I left a nasty comment. I just checked back and they've filled in the caption: Ragone plot of the energy density and power density of various sources. The plot has been expanded to show conservative estimates of the E-Cat from the March tests, as well as known values of Pu-238. Credit: Prepared for Forbes by Alan Fletcher based on the original figure by Ahmed F. Ghoniem. Needs, resources and climate change: clean and efficient conversion technologies, Progress in Energy and Combustion Science 37 (2011), 15-51, fig. 38 So I guess honor is satisfied !!! (Although I prefer leaving the credits on the image, because they tend to get copied and separated.) From: Frank Acland ecatwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:41:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Long-term test : LONG WAIT (Aug/Sep 2014) I think this is the same image: http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/rossitests2.jpg Stolen -- With all the attributions cropped off.
