Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
Turns out there seems to be another side to the story (again): http://e-catsite.com/2012/02/21/ni-corroborates-rossi-statements/ Betts confirms that the partnership has ended. She however also confirms Rossis statements on how the relation between both parties has been. Further, the term discussion seems to be meant as a deeper collaboration in the beginning. Wolf Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Earning a place for your business on an approved vendor list can be your ticket to winning more government-contract work. Nearly all prime contractors maintain lists of preferred vendors and subcontractors based on the quality and timeliness of their work and other attributes. Many businesses work diligently to get on these lists because they put these businesses one step closer to participating in a government procurement. If secrecy is involved, the approved vendor has been cleared to do secret work with employees that have been vetted to the appropriate security level. The vender also assigns a security officer that maintains a confidential file system in a secured location within the vender’s facility and handles and maintains the security clearances of the employees. On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de mailto:wolffisc...@gmx.de wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Wolf From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T
RE: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
What was interesting in the e-catsite.com article was this: . soon on this site I will post an article and details regarding an LANR (lattice-assisted nuclear reaction) patent that has been translated into English and made available to this site by its author. The patent was originally granted in Belgium in the 1990s but has since lapsed. The author has requested that I publish that information here as he wishes it to be shared and widely disseminated. Does anyone know who he is referring to? RE: Rossi/NI situation. My assumption all along was that NI was helping more with engineering/technical *advice* on how to monitor the various parameters. they have extensive experience in that area. There would be no need for NI to remain actively involved for any length of time once the instrumentation design was completed. at that point, NI might just be a supplier, but even that is unlikely since their products tend to be quite pricey, and Rossi wants to keep the price as low as possible. -Mark From: Wolf Fischer [mailto:wolffisc...@gmx.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI Turns out there seems to be another side to the story (again): http://e-catsite.com/2012/02/21/ni-corroborates-rossi-statements/ Betts confirms that the partnership has ended. She however also confirms Rossis statements on how the relation between both parties has been. Further, the term discussion seems to be meant as a deeper collaboration in the beginning. Wolf
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
Who is the new supplier? Ti? BTW I find strange that a customer has such decisional power on a corporate business. Does that imply that if a bigger customer comes they would change their supplier? No it probably means that the customer has become more a owner... mic Il 22 febbraio 2012 17:02, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: RE: Rossi/NI situation… My assumption all along was that NI was helping more with engineering/technical *advice* on how to monitor the various parameters… they have extensive experience in that area. There would be no need for NI to remain actively involved for any length of time once the instrumentation design was completed… at that point, NI might just be a supplier, but even that is unlikely since their products tend to be quite pricey, and Rossi wants to keep the price as low as possible. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
in real big business customers can be the real bosses. they are not selling potatoes, and even a farmer that sell potatoes to MacDonald can be frced to follow some advices and prcesses to reach the client needs... partnership with the provider is the secret of some big industrial sucesses, like in germany or japan. and lack of respect to the subcontractor can be the secret of failure like with GM... 2012/2/22 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com Who is the new supplier? Ti? BTW I find strange that a customer has such decisional power on a corporate business. Does that imply that if a bigger customer comes they would change their supplier? No it probably means that the customer has become more a owner... mic Il 22 febbraio 2012 17:02, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: RE: Rossi/NI situation… My assumption all along was that NI was helping more with engineering/technical *advice* on how to monitor the various parameters… they have extensive experience in that area. There would be no need for NI to remain actively involved for any length of time once the instrumentation design was completed… at that point, NI might just be a supplier, but even that is unlikely since their products tend to be quite pricey, and Rossi wants to keep the price as low as possible. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
I agree on vegetable market, or established industrial processes where competition is high. Not for a company that should sell an highly needed revolutionary product the functioning of which is secret, a black box, that has virtually no competitor. IMHO that decisional power is given by something more than a customer/supplier contract. mic Il 23 febbraio 2012 00:02, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com ha scritto: in real big business customers can be the real bosses. they are not selling potatoes, and even a farmer that sell potatoes to MacDonald can be frced to follow some advices and prcesses to reach the client needs... partnership with the provider is the secret of some big industrial sucesses, like in germany or japan. and lack of respect to the subcontractor can be the secret of failure like with GM... 2012/2/22 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com Who is the new supplier? Ti? BTW I find strange that a customer has such decisional power on a corporate business. Does that imply that if a bigger customer comes they would change their supplier? No it probably means that the customer has become more a owner... mic Il 22 febbraio 2012 17:02, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: RE: Rossi/NI situation… My assumption all along was that NI was helping more with engineering/technical *advice* on how to monitor the various parameters… they have extensive experience in that area. There would be no need for NI to remain actively involved for any length of time once the instrumentation design was completed… at that point, NI might just be a supplier, but even that is unlikely since their products tend to be quite pricey, and Rossi wants to keep the price as low as possible. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
Either Rossi is losing control of his ecat or he is learning to collaborate. Harry On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Who is the new supplier? Ti? BTW I find strange that a customer has such decisional power on a corporate business. Does that imply that if a bigger customer comes they would change their supplier? No it probably means that the customer has become more a owner... mic Il 22 febbraio 2012 17:02, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: RE: Rossi/NI situation… My assumption all along was that NI was helping more with engineering/technical *advice* on how to monitor the various parameters… they have extensive experience in that area. There would be no need for NI to remain actively involved for any length of time once the instrumentation design was completed… at that point, NI might just be a supplier, but even that is unlikely since their products tend to be quite pricey, and Rossi wants to keep the price as low as possible. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Wolf From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? If you are using a $20,000 instrument to find a solution and realize a series of logic gates will suffice for $350, why would you continue to use the more expensive device? T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
I knew a pathological liar when I was younger, she was one of the smartest people I have ever met, but would lie to no benefit other than to make herself look better or garner sympathy from the bad things she said had happened to her. I didn't realise it at first, thinking she had had a lot of bad luck, but after knowing her for a year I realised that while the individual anecdotes and stories were believable, when examined closely there were a lot of inconsistencies, and taken together as having all happened to the same person it was unbelievable - just an intricate web of exaggerations and lies. She also had a history of moving towns ditching old friends and making new ones every few years in order to (I now surmise) cover her tracks. Before I had had enough on those times I did call her out on it she would never admit to anything, but always go on attack or come up with some new story to cover herself. Sound familiar? I think that Rossi is getting to the point where he has embellished statements and claims so much over the last 12 months that he can no longer keep them all straight in his head. The internet has a long memory, and he is having to backtrack to get out of the worst of the contradictions and exaggerations that he has created (I think blaming translation issues is disingenuous at best). The stories, promises and claims are getting bigger to distract from the earlier mis-steps, even while he fails to deliver any tangible progress. This is unfortunate because he is having to devote so much time to covering up the holes in his stories (and quite possibly his investor's concerns) that I think it is now costing him any chance of progressing the technology. I think it likely that Rossi has made an important breakthrough, though my feeling is that he has exaggerated some measure of performance greatly (be it gain, power output, duration of run, no radiation or some combination of these). He may have even fooled himself with his steam based calorimetry and found that he wasn't producing the power he thought he was. His failure to demonstrate successfully to the several hard-nosed scientific observer teams that he has tried to establish commercial links with (Defkalion, US group) in August-September is pretty telling and I think he is now trapped by the story he has told to the point that he feels that he cannot reveal the true situation without totally destroying his credibility, he instead trying to buy time to fix whatever problem he has. I hoped for better from Defkalion, though I have growing doubts about them too now. They claim a 5kW reactor Ø40mmx100mm, and at a temperature of 400°C if exposed to the air it would only radiate and convect a few hundred watts. But their press release states that they intend to isolate it for the coming tests (I think they mean insulate) and are not using liquid cooling but may blow air though it to cool it, so power output is likely to be limited to 10's-100's of Watts. It would be very easy to implement crude air flow calorimetry ($100 and perhaps 1 hour of work to cover the reactor with a plastic sheet, blow air through and measure the temperature rise and flow rate with a cheap thermometer and anemometer). So what is going on? Why are they isolating the reactor? Are they trying to hide a performance short-fall too? It is getting very frustrating. We have reports from Brillouin, Arata, Miley, Ahern, Celani, Piantelli, Focardi et al of pretty substantial outputs and gains. And we hope for much better from Rossi and Defkalion, but even if there are flaws or performance short-falls, knowing exactly what the performance is would give the world more chance to assess, experiment, understand and improve upon what has been achieved. On 20 February 2012 12:42, Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Wolf From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: So what is going on? Why are they isolating the reactor? Are they trying to hide a performance short-fall too? It is getting very frustrating. PDGT will demonstrate their reactor generates heat whereas a control reactor with the same inputs does not. A fine first step, IMO. Those of us who have been deeply involved for almost 22 years are not frustrated. We are patient and savoring the sweet taste hoping it does not turn bitter. T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Earning a place for your business on an approved vendor list can be your ticket to winning more government-contract work. Nearly all prime contractors maintain lists of preferred vendors and subcontractors based on the quality and timeliness of their work and other attributes. Many businesses work diligently to get on these lists because they put these businesses one step closer to participating in a government procurement. If secrecy is involved, the approved vendor has been cleared to do secret work with employees that have been vetted to the appropriate security level. The vender also assigns a security officer that maintains a confidential file system in a secured location within the vender’s facility and handles and maintains the security clearances of the employees. On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Wolf From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
If you were Rossi and were 1000% convinced that it's all good to go, and you only needed another 12-18 months to start shipping, wouldn't you try to keep everything under wraps and obfuscate where possible? There's nothing to gain, and IP to lose, by giving even the slightest thing away. That's Rossi's most convincing argument, that he is very secretive and obfuscating. The rest of us, we can only wait or ignore. On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Earning a place for your business on an approved vendor list can be your ticket to winning more government-contract work. Nearly all prime contractors maintain lists of preferred vendors and subcontractors based on the quality and timeliness of their work and other attributes. Many businesses work diligently to get on these lists because they put these businesses one step closer to participating in a government procurement. If secrecy is involved, the approved vendor has been cleared to do secret work with employees that have been vetted to the appropriate security level. The vender also assigns a security officer that maintains a confidential file system in a secured location within the vender’s facility and handles and maintains the security clearances of the employees. On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de wrote: Some weeks ago, Rossi said that NI, he and the customer were working together on the 1MW plant. And now the customer wants something different? Why change a running system (if it ever was running)? And why is it important to the customer, which company supplies the controlling mechanism for a heating plant? Wolf From Rossi: Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. It is possible that a simple PLC/PAC could have been chosen. I don't think stabilization would be that big a challenge. All Rossi needed was some feedback. T -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:[JONP] About Leonardo Corp. property + end of partnership with NI
End of Partnership? Which one? LOL As far as we know, it has not even started. In my opinion he just got in touch with the local italian dealer, browsed the product catalogue, made a lot of chatters as he loves to, received a quote, got scared and ran away. The length of his answer on JoNP, instead of the usual yes/no+ warm regards, tells a lot about how much uncomfortable this story is. 2012/2/19 Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com From JONP http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=580cpage=4#comment-187119. By the way is there anywhere a more accurate business directory than this for NH? https://www.sos.nh.gov/corporate/soskb/Corp.asp?414253 Lu Fong February 19th, 2012 at 2:15 PM Dear Andrea Rossi, I am watching the development of the E-Cat very carefully. Yesterday it was reported that National Instruments and Leonardo Corporation/Andrea Rossi or partners are no longer doing business together. 1. Is this true? If true will this development affect your manufacturing schedule of 12-18 months? 2. Does the E-Cat have a control system ready for commercialization and manufacture in your factory? 3. Is delivery of the 1MW E-Cat to your 1st customer still on schedule (less than 1 month from now)? Thanks and good luck with your invention and work. L.F. Andrea Rossi February 19th, 2012 at 2:52 PM Dear Lu Fong: I have received many comments with the same questions, so I answer to you and the answers are valid also for the other Readers who have put the same questions. We have worked very well with N.I., and we have learnt from them very much. We are very grateful to them for all what they have teached to us, training our technological people in a very useful way, for weeks. As I said already, Leonardo Corporation is structurally changed in these last weeks, and the Trust to which now Leonardo Corporation belongs has chosen other suppliers. Also our Customer has chosen other suppliers for the first generation of the domestic E-Cats and of the 1 MW plants. We will remain always grateful to NI for what they teached to our people and we will ask in future proposals also to them . Personally, I am convinced that sooner or later we will buy also their systems. Said this, I want answer in the detail to your questions: 1- Our scheduling, obviously, will not be affected, the suppliers we have chosen are already respecting all the scheduled milestones. 2- 3- Yes, we have already the control systems set up in the 1 MW plant, which will be delivered to the Customer very soon. By the way, such systems have been chosen directly from the Customer, who preferred a supplier he was already working with. I want to add that we have chosen other Customers not because better, but only because of their longstanding collaboration with our Partners and Customer. I personally think that NI is a very good company and, again, we will maintain them in our list of Suppliers, honoured of this. The 1 MW plant is a magnificence, and the preparation of the robotized line to produce the E-Cats is in schedule to start the production within Autumn and the deliveries within the next Winter, with some luck; in the worst case, within 18 months we will deliver, and we will deliver at the prices we promised. The technology has been revolutionized, we are testing the new E-Cats and we are very satisfied. This very week we will start to use the new control system made by the new Supplier. Let me do a last consideration: the fact that snakes and clowns have used this episode to create a mess is the demonstration that we have not to release the names of our Partner, Suppliers and Customers, to avoid the falsifications that the puppet snakes and the clowns make up and, over all, the disturbments that they bring up to all the entities working with us. We all need to work in peace. We have to work in our factories 16 hours per day (also today, Sunday) and we have not time at all to compete in the field of the chatters of snakes who are PAID by their puppeteers to try to create a mess from nothing. Warm Regards, A.R.
