Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Twelve days ago I wrote: Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case. This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and Pons effect. The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by Arata and Zhang using a unique DS cathode, where a palladium outer shell was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in LiOD and LiOH. I thought the slide was very interesting because it indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered whether it was the main daughter in that reaction. I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004. It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86 days. The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about 0.05 percent of the final amount. But the final amount was not at a level to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be measured in their calorimeter. In that replication, they did not find the daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay. So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for. The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the excess heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He formation at the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a consequence, the 4He vented into the atmosphere. This possibility is an interesting one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the tritium was also produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as hydrogen can be expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was applied during the electrolysis. In this scenario, one source of the tritium would be from 6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into the electrolyte. (Ed has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p reaction.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf Transmutation of metal at low energy in a confined plasma in water * Conclusions * The plasma is able to initiate transmutation reactions. Future studies are underway to understand the mechanism of these reactions. We propose that these reactions are the main source of measured excess energy. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: Twelve days ago I wrote: Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case. This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and Pons effect. The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by Arata and Zhang using a unique DS cathode, where a palladium outer shell was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in LiOD and LiOH. I thought the slide was very interesting because it indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered whether it was the main daughter in that reaction. I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004. It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86 days. The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about 0.05 percent of the final amount. But the final amount was not at a level to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be measured in their calorimeter. In that replication, they did not find the daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay. So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for. The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the excess heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He formation at the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a consequence, the 4He vented into the atmosphere. This possibility is an interesting one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the tritium was also produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as hydrogen can be expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was applied during the electrolysis. In this scenario, one source of the tritium would be from 6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into the electrolyte. (Ed has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p reaction.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Analysis by germanium gamma detectors revealed presence of 100 billion atoms of Ag, Pd, Rh, and (one) Ru isotopes having ratios unlike those from bombardment by high-energy deuteron or proton beams. http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?1124-EPRI-Skeptic-Finds-Heavy-Element-Transmutation-Cold-Fusion-Experiment!-Hidden-3-years . Science should be done on the basis of experimental results. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf Transmutation of metal at low energy in a confined plasma in water * Conclusions * The plasma is able to initiate transmutation reactions. Future studies are underway to understand the mechanism of these reactions. We propose that these reactions are the main source of measured excess energy. On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote: Twelve days ago I wrote: Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case. This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and Pons effect. The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by Arata and Zhang using a unique DS cathode, where a palladium outer shell was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in LiOD and LiOH. I thought the slide was very interesting because it indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered whether it was the main daughter in that reaction. I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004. It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86 days. The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about 0.05 percent of the final amount. But the final amount was not at a level to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be measured in their calorimeter. In that replication, they did not find the daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay. So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for. The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the excess heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He formation at the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a consequence, the 4He vented into the atmosphere. This possibility is an interesting one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the tritium was also produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as hydrogen can be expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was applied during the electrolysis. In this scenario, one source of the tritium would be from 6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into the electrolyte. (Ed has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p reaction.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Robin, you need to acknowledge what actually is observed rather than what you think should happen. We are witnessing a novel process that has several basic characteristics, which are: 1. Hydrogen isotopes can come together in a material to make a fusion product without emitting the nuclear energy as energetic particles. 2. When the isotopes are d, the nuclear product is 4He. 3. When the isotopes are a mixture of H and D, the nuclear product is tritium. 4. When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown. 5. When the conditions are suitable for these fusion reactions to occur, the hydrogen isotope can add to a heavy nucleus to cause transmutation without emission of energetic particles. All of these reactions require a very unique condition that is able to overcome the Coulomb barrier without application of energy and release the nuclear energy in small units. This result is in direct contrast to the hot fusion process. You need to ask what process can cause these observed results. Of course, NO process can be imagined that could not be rejected for some reason. That is why the claims are not generally accepted. Nevertheless, the behavior has now been well established as real and needs to be explained. Present attempts either ignore most observed behavior or use unsupported assumptions and reach conclusions that can not be tested. Consequently, discussing these ideas is a waste of time. Nevertheless, the process needs to be explained. I have proposed a process that is consistent with ALL the observed behavior. I know this because I have actually read most of the published literature. In addition, I predict behavior that is expected and can be tested. I can also describe exactly how the e-Cat works based on the model and how it can be improved. I will discuss this at ICCF-18. Nevertheless, I find very little interest exists in discussing these ideas here and great difficultly even getting them published in conventional journals. Consequently, I have not shown all the evidence or the details of the process. Instead, I have decided to use my time testing the ideas. If the tests are successful, then we can talk again. Ed On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:35 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700: Hi, [snip] Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first combines with one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then combine(s) with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of all three particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a strong force reaction, and happens instantaneously, whereas the reaction to T would be a weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because the reverse weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want to make a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers where tritium was detected. Ed 1.Bertalot, L., et al. Analysis of tritium and heat excess in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes. in Second Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, The Science of Cold Fusion. 1991. Como, Italy: Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3. 2. Chien, C.-C., et al., On an electrode producing massive quantities of tritium and helium. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1992. 338: p. 189-212. 3.Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium and neutron measurements of a solid state cell. in NSF/EPRI Workshop on Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Materials. 1989. Washington, DC: LA-UR-89-39-46. p. 4.Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium production from palladium alloys. in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998. Vancouver, Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. p. 88-93. 5.Fleischmann, M., S. Pons, and M. Hawkins, Electrochemically induced nuclear fusion of deuterium. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1989. 261: p. 301-308 and errata in Vol. 263, 187-188. 6. Gozzi, D., et al. First results from a ten electrolytic cells experiment. in Anomalous Nuclear Effects in Deuterium/Solid Systems, AIP Conference Proceedings 228. 1990. Brigham Young Univ., Provo, UT: American Institute of Physics, New York. p. 481. 7. Gozzi, D., et al., Nuclear and thermal effects during electrolytic reduction of deuterium at palladium cathode. J. Fusion Energy, 1990. 9(3): p. 241. 8.Guruswamy, S. and M.E. Wadsworth. Metallurgical Aspects in Cold Fusion Experiments. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. p. 314. 9. Itoh, T., et al. Observation of nuclear products under vacuum conditions from deuterated palladium with high loading ratio. in 5th International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1995. Monte-Carlo, Monaco: IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France. p. 189. 10.Iyengar, P.K. Cold fusion results in BARC experiments. in Fifth International Conf. on Emerging Nucl. Energy Ststems. 1989. Karlsruhe, Germany. p. 11.Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan, BARC studies in cold fusion. 1989, BARC, India: Bombay. 12.Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. p. 62. 13.Iyengar, P.K., et al., Bhabha Atomic Research Centre studies on cold fusion. Fusion Technol., 1990. 18: p. 32. 14.Matsumoto, O., et al. Detection of neutron and tritium during electrolysis of D2SO4-D2O solution. in Third International Conference on Cold Fusion, Frontiers of Cold Fusion. 1992. Nagoya Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. p. 495. 15.Notoya, R. Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by tritium production on nickel. in Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 1. 16.Notoya, R., Y. Noya, and T. Ohnishi, Tritium generation and large excess heat evolution by electrolysis in light and heavy water-potassium carbonate solutions with nickel electrodes. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26: p. 179. 17.Notoya, R., Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by tritium production on nickel. Trans. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26(#4T): p. 205-208. 18.Packham, N.J.C., et al., Production of tritium from D2O electrolysis at a palladium cathode. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1989. 270: p. 451. 19.Ramamurthy, H., et al. Further studies on excess heat generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 15. 20. Ray, M.K.S., et al., The Fleischmann-Pons phenomenon - a different perspective. Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 395. 21.Sankaranarayanan, M., et al. Investigation of low level tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 3. 22.Sankaranarayanan, T.K., et al., Investigation of low- level tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. Fusion Technol., 1996. 30: p. 349. 23.Sánchez, C., et al., Nuclear products detection during electrolysis of heavy water with titanium and platinum electrodes. Solid State Commun., 1989. 71: p. 1039. 24.Sánchez, C., et al. Cold fusion during electrolysis of
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Ed, 4.) When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown Any speculation? My speculation would be D On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Robin, you need to acknowledge what actually is observed rather than what you think should happen. We are witnessing a novel process that has several basic characteristics, which are: 1. Hydrogen isotopes can come together in a material to make a fusion product without emitting the nuclear energy as energetic particles. 2. When the isotopes are d, the nuclear product is 4He. 3. When the isotopes are a mixture of H and D, the nuclear product is tritium. 4. When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown. 5. When the conditions are suitable for these fusion reactions to occur, the hydrogen isotope can add to a heavy nucleus to cause transmutation without emission of energetic particles. All of these reactions require a very unique condition that is able to overcome the Coulomb barrier without application of energy and release the nuclear energy in small units. This result is in direct contrast to the hot fusion process. You need to ask what process can cause these observed results. Of course, NO process can be imagined that could not be rejected for some reason. That is why the claims are not generally accepted. Nevertheless, the behavior has now been well established as real and needs to be explained. Present attempts either ignore most observed behavior or use unsupported assumptions and reach conclusions that can not be tested. Consequently, discussing these ideas is a waste of time. Nevertheless, the process needs to be explained. I have proposed a process that is consistent with ALL the observed behavior. I know this because I have actually read most of the published literature. In addition, I predict behavior that is expected and can be tested. I can also describe exactly how the e-Cat works based on the model and how it can be improved. I will discuss this at ICCF-18. Nevertheless, I find very little interest exists in discussing these ideas here and great difficultly even getting them published in conventional journals. Consequently, I have not shown all the evidence or the details of the process. Instead, I have decided to use my time testing the ideas. If the tests are successful, then we can talk again. Ed On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:35 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700: Hi, [snip] Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first combines with one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then combine(s) with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of all three particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a strong force reaction, and happens instantaneously, whereas the reaction to T would be a weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because the reverse weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.**com/project.htmlhttp://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want to make a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers where tritium was detected. Ed 1.Bertalot, L., et al. *Analysis of tritium and heat excess in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes*. in *Second Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, The Science of Cold Fusion*. 1991. Como, Italy: Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3. These will be interesting to read. I hope you haven't left anything out. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Very funny, Eric. If I have, it's not for the lack of looking. Ed On Jun 18, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Eric Walker wrote: On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want to make a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers where tritium was detected. Ed 1.Bertalot, L., et al. Analysis of tritium and heat excess in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes. in Second Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, The Science of Cold Fusion. 1991. Como, Italy: Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3. These will be interesting to read. I hope you haven't left anything out. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Very funny, Eric. If I have, it's not for the lack of looking. Ed I joke, but I really do appreciate the sources and will enjoy reading them. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:03:19 -0600: Hi Ed, [snip] Instead, I have decided to use my time testing the ideas. An excellent idea. If the tests are successful, then we can talk again. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:03:19 -0600: Hi Ed, [snip] BTW, next time you detect T, check the half-life. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700: Hi, [snip] Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first combines with one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then combine(s) with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of all three particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a strong force reaction, and happens instantaneously, whereas the reaction to T would be a weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because the reverse weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
For those of us who are rational about experimental results, this is bad news since it is not news that LENR is a real phenomenon -- but large scale tritium production -- a radioactive product renders the process subject to government control hence political control. On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I just looked into some details concerning the scenario presented in slide 9 of Michael McKubre's recent presentation in Brussels to get a sense of what might be causing the tritium they were seeing. The slide summarizes an Arata/Zhang replication. In their replication, they saw excess heat and, apparently, primarily tritium. This is unusual, because when tritium has been present in many experiments, it has usually been found only in small amounts, suggesting that it is the result of some kind of side reaction. But the slide indicates that they saw 2-5 * 10^15 atoms. If you consider that 1 W excess heat from the generation of 4He from d+d (however this happens) will yield on the order of 10^11 atoms, it is apparent that 10^15 atoms is a lot of tritium. Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case. The possibility of excess heat arising primarily from tritium generation poses some interesting questions: What were some candidate exothermic reactions that might produce the tritium? Is some kind of neutron capture required to explain the result? What else can be gleaned from the slide? For the quick analysis that follows, here are relevant details: - The experiment involved palladium black and LiOD electrolyte in an electrolytic setup. - They saw excess heat from LiOD but not LiOH. - They saw no 4He. - They saw no 3He above what can be expected from the decay of tritium. This suggests that the 3He was not a daughter product of whatever reaction was causing the heat. - The 3He they saw diffused from a source within the hollow cathode, which had the palladium black within in it. I think palladium black is in the form of powder. After looking at a number of reactions, I found only two exothermic reactions that produce tritium with precursors that would have been present: - 6Li + d → t + 5Li + 594 keV - - 3He + n → p + t + 1.27 MeV I saw no other reactions involving stable isotopes of H, Li, O, or Pd that were exothermic, although it is possible the heat was generated by a reaction I missed or by one involving a different element. At a minimum it seems that deuterium was needed, because they saw excess heat with LiOD and not LiOH. Assuming for the moment that the reaction was one of these two, neutron capture cannot be ruled out, but neither is it necessary. If the 3He really was a byproduct of tritium decay, then neutron capture would appear to be unlikely as the primary source of heat in this instance, leaving the 6Li+d reaction. Another reason the 3He+n reaction seems unlikely as the primary source of heat is that it does not involve deuterium. Since 6Li is 7 percent of naturally occurring lithium, the amount of if that will have been present in the electrolyte is non-negligible. But it's not clear that it would make it into the hollow cathode, where the tritium diffused from; perhaps it was able to enter the cathode through a crack in a ligation that was used to seal in the palladium black. Another possibility is that tritium was generated at the exterior of the cathode and then migrated through the cathode into the center, where palladium black was. In this case the reaction would have been in the electrolyte or at the interface between the exterior of the cathode and the electrolyte. If this is what happened, it is not clear what would have been driving the 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction. Perhaps there were d's shooting out into the electrolyte sufficiently fast for this purpose. I am not sure what the cross section for this reaction is, which could tell us how fast the d's would need to be going. To summarize some interesting details: - The possibility of tritium as the main daughter product giving rise to excess heat is unusual and is worth thinking about. - It looks like the tritium and excess heat could be arising in this case from reactions with the electrolyte that involve lithium and deuterium. - Alternatively, neutrons from an unknown source could be causing the tritium and excess heat by way of 3He(n,p)t reactions, but if that is the case, you would need a way to get neutrons from the presence of LiOD and not LiOH, and you would need the presence of 3He prior to that of the tritium. - If the lithium in the electrolyte is involved, it seems like you would need fast particles to keep things going; fast enough, anyway, to make the 6Li(d,t)5Li
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. It wasn't intentional. I'll take a look at those papers. (The Fusion Science and Technology one will take a little while.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:34:44 AM Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. That supports your earlier reply to my questions: H-e-(H-e-H)-e-H-e == H-e-(D)-e-H-e-H I suggested that poisoned the chain -- you said it probably just moved its activity to a higher start-temperature. Then we get -e-H-(D-e-H)-e-H-e-H- == -e-H-e-(t)-e-H-e- ...
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Reference: “Laser-induced synthesis and decay of Tritium under exposure of solid targets in heavy water http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0830 how about the reaction that has been experimentally demonstrated in the referenced paper? electron + deuterium+ - dinuetron + neutrino dineutron - deutrerium + electron + neutrino deuterium + dinuetron - tritium + neutron + 3.5MeV On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:34:44 AM Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. That supports your earlier reply to my questions: H-e-(H-e-H)-e-H-e == H-e-(D)-e-H-e-H I suggested that poisoned the chain -- you said it probably just moved its activity to a higher start-temperature. Then we get -e-H-(D-e-H)-e-H-e-H- == -e-H-e-(t)-e-H-e- ...
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations. Also, just to make sure I understand your position -- you're understanding is that the lithium in the electrolyte is a secondary detail, and that, barring some unforeseen effect, NaOD and NaOH would have led to the same yield of tritium? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
I just looked into some details concerning the scenario presented in slide 9 of Michael McKubre's recent presentation in Brussels to get a sense of what might be causing the tritium they were seeing. The slide summarizes an Arata/Zhang replication. In their replication, they saw excess heat and, apparently, primarily tritium. This is unusual, because when tritium has been present in many experiments, it has usually been found only in small amounts, suggesting that it is the result of some kind of side reaction. But the slide indicates that they saw 2-5 * 10^15 atoms. If you consider that 1 W excess heat from the generation of 4He from d+d (however this happens) will yield on the order of 10^11 atoms, it is apparent that 10^15 atoms is a lot of tritium. Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case. The possibility of excess heat arising primarily from tritium generation poses some interesting questions: What were some candidate exothermic reactions that might produce the tritium? Is some kind of neutron capture required to explain the result? What else can be gleaned from the slide? For the quick analysis that follows, here are relevant details: - The experiment involved palladium black and LiOD electrolyte in an electrolytic setup. - They saw excess heat from LiOD but not LiOH. - They saw no 4He. - They saw no 3He above what can be expected from the decay of tritium. This suggests that the 3He was not a daughter product of whatever reaction was causing the heat. - The 3He they saw diffused from a source within the hollow cathode, which had the palladium black within in it. I think palladium black is in the form of powder. After looking at a number of reactions, I found only two exothermic reactions that produce tritium with precursors that would have been present: - 6Li + d → t + 5Li + 594 keV - - 3He + n → p + t + 1.27 MeV I saw no other reactions involving stable isotopes of H, Li, O, or Pd that were exothermic, although it is possible the heat was generated by a reaction I missed or by one involving a different element. At a minimum it seems that deuterium was needed, because they saw excess heat with LiOD and not LiOH. Assuming for the moment that the reaction was one of these two, neutron capture cannot be ruled out, but neither is it necessary. If the 3He really was a byproduct of tritium decay, then neutron capture would appear to be unlikely as the primary source of heat in this instance, leaving the 6Li+d reaction. Another reason the 3He+n reaction seems unlikely as the primary source of heat is that it does not involve deuterium. Since 6Li is 7 percent of naturally occurring lithium, the amount of if that will have been present in the electrolyte is non-negligible. But it's not clear that it would make it into the hollow cathode, where the tritium diffused from; perhaps it was able to enter the cathode through a crack in a ligation that was used to seal in the palladium black. Another possibility is that tritium was generated at the exterior of the cathode and then migrated through the cathode into the center, where palladium black was. In this case the reaction would have been in the electrolyte or at the interface between the exterior of the cathode and the electrolyte. If this is what happened, it is not clear what would have been driving the 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction. Perhaps there were d's shooting out into the electrolyte sufficiently fast for this purpose. I am not sure what the cross section for this reaction is, which could tell us how fast the d's would need to be going. To summarize some interesting details: - The possibility of tritium as the main daughter product giving rise to excess heat is unusual and is worth thinking about. - It looks like the tritium and excess heat could be arising in this case from reactions with the electrolyte that involve lithium and deuterium. - Alternatively, neutrons from an unknown source could be causing the tritium and excess heat by way of 3He(n,p)t reactions, but if that is the case, you would need a way to get neutrons from the presence of LiOD and not LiOH, and you would need the presence of 3He prior to that of the tritium. - If the lithium in the electrolyte is involved, it seems like you would need fast particles to keep things going; fast enough, anyway, to make the 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction a likelihood. I would be interested in seeing the paper that the slide is based off of. Has anyone seen it? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
From: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:31:34 AM Hello group, The presentations shown during the June 3 LENR meeting at the European Parliament in Brussels can now be downloaded, in pdf format, from the ENEA website through the following URL: http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source Thanks! McKubre's is interesting -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA (http://www.dtra.mil/ !!??) (Thanks Cravens and Letts !!)
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
I'm surprised there is no video equivalent of CSPAN for this. On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: From: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:31:34 AM Hello group, The presentations shown during the June 3 LENR meeting at the European Parliament in Brussels can now be downloaded, in pdf format, from the ENEA website through the following URL: http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source Thanks! McKubre's is interesting -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA ( http://www.dtra.mil/ !!??) (Thanks Cravens and Letts !!)
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
Thanks! McKubre's is interesting -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA (http://www.dtra.mil/ !!??) Does anyone have any information on DARPA's relationship to SRI/McKubre. Is it general support, or specifically for CF, and the the ENEA/NRL agreement? (If you can tell me, of course.)
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source Thanks! McKubre's is interesting -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA ( http://www.dtra.mil/ !!??) Very interesting slides. Some points for those who have not taken a look at them: - McKubre and coworkers saw excess heat and *tritium* production (2-5E15 atoms) in palladium black and LiOD. In that experiment there was no 4He, and 3He was commensurate with tritium decay (i.e., no 3He from the primary reaction). - They saw excess heat with Ni/H. - They saw something with Ni/D. - There is a bullet point towards asks of whether Ni/H is perhaps Ni/H(D) (if this interpretation is correct, the question is along the lines of my own speculations of late). I wonder whether the connection with DARPA is related to the tritium. Tritium is normally hard to come by, and it is very useful if you want to make a nuclear weapon. If the goal of your organization was to avoid strategic surprises, you would probably want to look into the possibility of tabletop tritium, however remote it might seem. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf
I wrote: - McKubre and coworkers saw excess heat and *tritium* production (2-5E15 atoms) in palladium black and LiOD. In that experiment there was no 4He, and 3He was commensurate with tritium decay (i.e., no 3He from the primary reaction). Note also that tritium is a health hazard. If this finding can be substantiated, there would be a good argument for regulation of LENR (although I doubt regulation would be effective in the hobbyist context). Eric
