Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal Website] Reminder note re: Developing and coding
Hi Marc and Carlos, On Nov 18, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-11-18 00:44, Carlos Jenkins a écrit : I really would like to integrate all the aspects of the development into Drupal, to have a common user base a login. Right now the Issue tracking is taking place in a BugZilla. I know this is asking really too much, but exists the possibility to start using Issues/Project for Drupal, those are the module that empowers http://drupal.org/project/issues I don't expect current developers to configure it and set it up, but if that is done, the will be willing to use it? Cheers Yes, we need to keep the community together as much as possible. As you said, let's make it easy for the devs, they are pretty busy working on code. I concur on this--centralizing web infrastructure where possible will reduce our overhead and let the project tools be managed more easily. This will save us time on more outward-oriented (and future-oriented) community activities. :) -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] website - user support - forums
Hi Carlos, On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Carlos Jenkins wrote: Hi everyone, In the Drupal development team we have been thinking in organizing the site in groups, dev group, marketing, spanish, french, etc, etc, with members (open/closed membership), a group dashboard (with tasks, etc). I want to test this module http://drupal.org/project/og_mailinglist so maybe everyone can be happy :D This is not like a forum forum, pure forum, it's more like http://groups.drupal.org/ and conversation flow is more like http://groups.drupal.org/node/91699 but also with a mail backend. I've used this functionality and it's very powerful and user-friendly. In addition to the above uses, I also think it would be great for the marketing street teams concept I've been working on, to let ad-hoc promotional teams form and collaborate online. However, I think Drew was specifically referring to user support forums in his initial post. Elsewhere on our mailing lists, we discussed setting up a subdomain for user forums, such as forum.libreoffice.org. In my opinion, this would be the most user-friendly way to provide support forums in a way that lets end-users know they are the official forums (and which they can easily find). -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] CMS Role on Website
I've finally had a chance to register on test.libreoffice.org and would like to request permissions to publish and edit on the en-US section of the site. My username is bhorst. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Drupal CMS development site live (The Realer Thing)
Michael, Christoph, and all, On Nov 6, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: The Drupal LibreOffice Development site is now at (Drumroll) www.libreofficeaustralia.org Cool! Looks great! We need help in the following areas: Creating a beautiful Drupal 6.x theme - including advanced forum and custom block themes Concerning the visual design, it might be worth to wait until we have something (more or less) final for the LibO 3.3. release. Since the beta is expected to be released next week, it shouldn't take that much time :-) I spent a bit of time this weekend working on a Drupal theme based on the current site. I don't think I made great progress yet, but I would like to continue refining it. Christoph--do you plan to modify the HTML and CSS to coincide with the LibO 3.3 release? Can you share the HTML and CSS with me directly if and when you make these updates? And by the way, since everybody here seems so extremely engaged, I searched for the old files on my hard disk. Maybe interesting for you to have a look at the originally planned (but not fully realized) design. http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/website-progress-and-looking-back.html Thanks for sharing this! -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Interesting Idea for community Integration
On Nov 5, 2010, at 9:41 AM, drew wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 13:34 +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote: The Ubuntu Community has suggested what is called a 'We Menu' which adds a community aspect to the OS. Might be an idea for LibreOffice? http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WeMenu I agree there is good, possibly, stuff- for a good part of this week, when I had time, I've been crawling all over the Ubuntu sites ( on the IRC channel and Mailing list) talking to folks and reading about how they handle team building / support / reporting. There is some great stuff there - to be honest I doubt we will find much interest here in TDF - but I'll be trying over the next couple of days. I like this very much. This ties the app into the web in useful, community ways, and shows off the strength of our online community, if we do it well. It can help new users find coaches to help them learn how best to use LibO, and it can help experienced users too. Almost two years ago, I created a proposal for the OOo Start Center that included community features like this in the start splash screen. (I called it the Dashboard and documented the idea here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org_Dashboard_Concept ) -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Hello World
Michael, On Oct 31, 2010, at 4:24 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote: Hi to all on the Libre Office website mailing list. I am very keen to get involved early on the Libre Office project. I have been wanting to get involved with OpenOffice.org for many years now, but due to the lack of community I found it very difficult. I have a passion for Intuitive Navigation and User Interface improvements. I am very interested in collaboration to build a website and software interface which promotes ease of use, idea generation and community inclusion from initial contact with the Libre Office project. Welcome! I have been thinking about these same issues, and would appreciate your involvement. To date, I have created a draft wireframe and IA, but it's only a rough draft at this point. You can see the info on the wiki page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Site_IA_and_Wireframes I attached an ODG file with the wireframes to the page, and listed in a hierarchical list the pages of the site. One major change that needs to be made is to separate the IA into two sites--one for LibO, and one for TDF, as discussed elsewhere on this list. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Documentation framework for LibreOffice?
Hi Andrea, On Oct 30, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Andreas Mantke wrote: If we want to use a CMS, we had to decide, if we want to use Plone, which some of the documentation-contributors already know, or another CMS (Drupal, Alfresco etc.) I never used the OOoAuthors structures intensively, but recently the Italian OpenOffice.org documentation team expressed their desire to see the infrastructure upgraded to Plone 4, for performance reasons. So they they were thinking of a vertical Plone to Plone migration rather than a complete migration, and I think the same would apply to documentation for LibreOffice. Plone is a good CMS, and if it works well for the documentation team, then it makes sense to continue using it. However, I know the focus of the OOoAuthors project has been to produce PDFs and printed books, but there is a good reason to also work on thorough, online, HTML documentation for LibO in the future. (We do have the documentation wiki already: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/ ) If you're interested in online Drupal documentation, the best example I can recommend is the Drupal site's documentation itself: http://drupal.org/documentation Both in terms of workflow and final output, it meets the needs I think we have for LibO. From a user perspective, hosting it at an easy URL like libreoffice.org/documentation would be very important, and thus it should be integrated into our core CMS. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Wiki Subpages and Categories
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:38 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Benjamin Horst wrote on 2010-10-26 21.24: Subpages in our wiki appear to behave strangely, and I think it's because we have not enabled subpages in the configuration. See the documentation: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages thanks for pointing this out. I've now enabled subpages. Thank you, Florian! -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Drew Jensen wrote: What do you think? As bad as it can be, the Document Foundation is still an oligarchy. Let the SC choose. Then if people believe a simple majority vote is best we can go that way, but I'm not sure times are ready for this. Regards, Andrea. Fair enough - anyone see it differently from Andrea? I agree with Andrea on this approach. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Hi André, On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Andre Schnabel wrote: 1st) we need something to present information to our users and can be setup in rather short time, does not cost to much time regarding maintenance and provides an rather easy way to edit content. People are currently asking for better structure and more information at the website - I'd love to see people without technical skills on scm, plain html and so on to provide such content. Understood, and agreed! I think we can all agree that either of our top CMS choices solves this issue readily. 2nd) we would need a solution to cover much more infrastructure then just the website. As some of you already pointed out, we might need to host own template site, extension site (and please let's have some ways to access this from within the Application, just like mozilla apps do this), and whatever you might dream of. But this is a real long-term solution and no urgent requirement for the next two months. Longterm expansion is something I've had in mind since the conversation began. I'm not sure I always communicated it effectively, but I have certainly been thinking about it from the start. I'm also a big supporter of integrating the LibO application with online resources--at least a year ago I wrote and presented an OOo Dashboard concept that attempted to address this, and I will refresh and share it again in the near future, for LibO this time. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Marc, Thanks for stepping in here and helping us organize this last bit of work. Your taking on the role of an impartial organizer is vital. On Oct 20, 2010, at 4:10 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Does anyone else have any specs to add to the list. Today (Wednesday) is most likely the last day that specs should be added and it will leave us presumably two more days (Wednesday, Thursday) for debate, testing and viewing of results of changes on the demo sites. I am not sure, but do we also have to have a hands up of people who are willing to contribute their time to help administer the site regardless of the choice of CMS? IMHO think that this kind of commit would be nice to submit to the SC. I will help in either case. (Though I'll be more effective with Drupal since I already know the system.) Remember André's original post that the SC discussed the choice of CMS at their last meeting and the SC now wants to hear a proposal by the end of the week as to which CMS the team recommends. So, our recommendation will go to the SC as a proposal which they will consider. I would then suggest that our proposal should then account for the following: * CMS proposed by the team: * Virtues of the CMS being proposed by the team: * The shortfalls of the CMS being proposed: * Perhaps a demo site (we would have to dress it up a little better for the SC) * List of people who would like to commit themselves to helping with the running of the CMS: This looks like a great outline for the final proposal. Thanks again for creating this. It may make sense to write out this proposal on the current wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms) or perhaps a new page of its own? -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
I will do the dirty work of Drupal. I'd donate the resources of my business to help. I have a couple developers and assistance. I would just like some credit for doing the work. If you guys choose drupal and want advice, training, or minor amounts of help then I'll just do that no strings attached, since I can volunteer my time but not my people. I am also available for Drupal support, and Jim Benstead (a friend of mine) volunteered to help earlier in the thread too. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Marc, On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Thanks, no problem, I just happen to have the time to work on this. I am just recovering from 2 spinal surgeries and having to re-learn walking and other things ... nasty stuff spinal injuries. Also, the only comfortable position for me right now is one particular chair in my house and no other. Lying on my back is actually quite painful. Very sorry to hear about this, and I wish you the quickest possible recovery! This sounds like a really difficult ordeal. Remember André's original post that the SC discussed the choice of CMS at their last meeting and the SC now wants to hear a proposal by the end of the week as to which CMS the team recommends. So, our recommendation will go to the SC as a proposal which they will consider. I would then suggest that our proposal should then account for the following: * CMS proposed by the team: * Virtues of the CMS being proposed by the team: * The shortfalls of the CMS being proposed: * Perhaps a demo site (we would have to dress it up a little better for the SC) * List of people who would like to commit themselves to helping with the running of the CMS: This looks like a great outline for the final proposal. Thanks again for creating this. It may make sense to write out this proposal on the current wiki page (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms) or perhaps a new page of its own? -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com This makes sense. I have just proposed this with Andre as well as the fact that there is probably a person on this discussion thread who would be willing to update the Wiki for public viewing. Marc As suggested somewhere, I've created a table on the wiki page to enter the specific strengths and weaknesses of Drupal and SilverStripe. I've just seeded it with a few points so far. Others will need to add to it: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms#CMS_Comparison -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Keith, This discussion should not become an endurance challenge, where whoever holds out the longest wins. That's no way to make a good technical decision. On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Keith Williams wrote: Ok. You win, go with Silverstripe, it appears that you already have made that decision and I don't have the time to devote to this discussion, since I will not be working with Silverstripe. I really did look into Silverstripe and the reason you find it clear is that it doesn't do much and I didn't find it very flexible. I think this is important to note. Silverstripe looks good with no effort, and when has been the case with software I've worked with in the past, it's because the software is not flexible. Perhaps we should set a higher bar for the demo. Keith, can you look at the requirements wiki page and add details about ad hoc group creation and other features you suggest the site should have to support our globally active groups? I think this has not been addressed in Christian's initial requirements list: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms The views query builder and the content construction kit for drupal are absolutely amazing. You need a real site builder demo to understand that. They are far and away one of the most impressive things I've ever used in an online system, dare I say they are revolutionary in some ways. Maybe there is something like them but I haven't seen it. Why don't you just go use wordpress? I don't think that Silverstripe adds more and at least with WP you don't need to look at that crappy loading screen on admin side whenever you click a button. Interesting, someone recommended WordPress early in this discussion but never followed up. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Please keep the site up! No decision has been made yet and I'd like to work with it more. -Ben On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Keith Williams wrote: I'll be taking site down by the end of the day. We grow beautiful ideas On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Keith, 2010/10/19 Keith Williams kwilli...@thoughtfarmproductions.com: So i spent about 45 minutes on the demo site... [...] The site has groups, polls per group, ratings on discussions that are tracked, and differentiated admin / user roles. try to login using: testuser testuser$1234 OK, you set up something that might be a wiki, but is not workable with, sorry. Either the testuser lacks any serious possibilities, or the UI lacks. How would I structure the website (remember: The requirement was for a website, wiki or user-forum are sepqrate on purpose) How would I edit the Welcome page for example? How would I create a navigation? just putting a new page in the parent-groups's body ain't that great IMHO. Wiki-Editor doesn't feature a nice editor yet either. And Allowed HTML tags: a em strong cite code ul ol li dl dt dd Is a joke, is it? You're not allowed to create headings or tables? Not yet impressed. And not something I'd propose to the NL-Groups in this state. ciao Christian -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Thank you, Keith. I will keep trying to find the time to set up a demo for Christian et al, but it's very difficult for me to carve out any time right now myself. I have uploaded some draft wireframes to the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms Christian, Keith, everyone: Your thoughts on my draft wireframes linked above would be very helpful. I think it's important for us to sketch out a good IA for the website(s) before we try to build anything new! -Ben On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Keith Williams wrote: I'll keep it up, you seem like a nice guy. I think the decision has been made by CMSreport and forum posts. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: Please keep the site up! No decision has been made yet and I'd like to work with it more. -Ben On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Keith Williams wrote: I'll be taking site down by the end of the day. We grow beautiful ideas On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com lohmaier%2booofut...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Keith, 2010/10/19 Keith Williams kwilli...@thoughtfarmproductions.com: So i spent about 45 minutes on the demo site... [...] The site has groups, polls per group, ratings on discussions that are tracked, and differentiated admin / user roles. try to login using: testuser testuser$1234 OK, you set up something that might be a wiki, but is not workable with, sorry. Either the testuser lacks any serious possibilities, or the UI lacks. How would I structure the website (remember: The requirement was for a website, wiki or user-forum are sepqrate on purpose) How would I edit the Welcome page for example? How would I create a navigation? just putting a new page in the parent-groups's body ain't that great IMHO. Wiki-Editor doesn't feature a nice editor yet either. And Allowed HTML tags: a em strong cite code ul ol li dl dt dd Is a joke, is it? You're not allowed to create headings or tables? Not yet impressed. And not something I'd propose to the NL-Groups in this state. ciao Christian -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org website%2bh...@libreoffice.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org website%2bh...@libreoffice.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org website%2bh...@libreoffice.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- *Thought Farm Productions http://www.thoughtfarmproductions.com thoughtf...@thoughtfarmproductions.com* *(201) 691-7057* -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Stepping Back to Site IA
I'd like to step back and reframe our discussion a bit. We've been in the weeds comparing CMSs, but we haven't discussed the architecture of the site the CMS needs to support. I think different expectations of requirements may be why we've broken into two major camps. What pages will the site include at its launch? Only those currently on the TDF website? If that is our plan, then the CMS choice is much simpler. I've written a list of pages as I think they should be organized in the wiki, but this is an expansion from what the current TDF site includes. (It attempts to include future needs, not just current needs.) http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms#Information_Architecture Christian: What is your expectation for site IA? Can you list the site sections and pages you envision, especially if they are very different from what I have put onto the wiki? Finally, based on what I have observed from Mozilla's organization, shouldn't we consider two entirely separate websites at different domains (one for TDF, and one for LibO)? I think this would be much easier for users to understand, as they'd want to spend their time on the LibO site. Meanwhile, community participants would mostly use the TDF site. Perhaps we could make one of these sites use SilverStripe and one use Drupal, as a compromise... Thanks, Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Stepping Back to Site IA
Hello, On Oct 19, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Benjamin, *, On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: What pages will the site include at its launch? Only those currently on the TDF website? How do you define at its launch. So yes, when the sitch is turned over going from the current website to the cms driven website, the pages that are currently on the TDF website are a must-have. Yes, exactly. The day it first becomes publicly visible is its launch. I'd not go into changing visual design yet. Depending on the progress of the german-lang testsite, a couple of pages from that area could be part of the initial launch as well. Can you list them here please? I want to get a feel for the architecture implications. But with initial launch I really mean the day when the switch is made. After that, when groups can be established, those groups would add their own content. This is also what I expected. If that is our plan, then the CMS choice is much simpler. I've written a list of pages as I think they should be organized in the wiki, Unfortunately you put it into a document that needs to be downloaded to be viewed, and thus cannot easily be modified/adapted. On the contrary, they are listed right on the wiki page. They are replicated in the ODG file (slightly modified) but you don't need to download it to see them. (As a side note, you can easily modify and re-upload the file into the wiki, which will track versions as they are uploaded.) I think the current 8 main-pages as we have now are a good start for the initial launch, after all you can only create the pages when you got the content for it. (and of course it's not written in stone, you're always free to change the site structure afterwards) Yes, but organizational inertia makes this much more difficult in practice. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms#Information_Architecture Christian: What is your expectation for site IA? Can you list the site sections and pages you envision, especially if they are very different from what I have put onto the wiki? Well, as you especially mentioned future needs, then I'd say that the libreoffice part will be much shorter no the main TDF page, after all it will someday have it's own page at libreoffice.org (that currently just links to the foundation page) But really I'd not go into details of the structure right now, i think it's too early. I think we need to plan the structure as much as possible before implementing. This will prevent us from making mistakes and having to backtrack / redo our work later. Finally, based on what I have observed from Mozilla's organization, shouldn't we consider two entirely separate websites at different domains (one for TDF, and one for LibO)? Ah, you got the same opinion on that one :-) - see above. As to your layout proposals: I'd be happy to leave that decision to marketing/branding - putting a corresponding frontpage and css together is way easier than to actually agree upon a design :- I think this would be much easier for users to understand, as they'd want to spend their time on the LibO site. Meanwhile, community participants would mostly use the TDF site. Perhaps we could make one of these sites use SilverStripe and one use Drupal, as a compromise... Not sure whether that is a good idea, but Steering Committee has final word anyway. Drupal allows power and flexibility; SilverStripe allows editor simplicity. The site that would require heavy community features and data driven pages would be Drupal. The site that is more brochure-ware would be SilverStripe. Seems like a fair way to resolve the current impasse, and road-test both CMS platforms in realworld conditions for our project. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
On Oct 19, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-10-18 04:37, Andre Schnabel a écrit : Hi, I see that there are lots of discussion, which CMS to use, what features are needed ... at the other hand, users and language teams need more info at our website - nad without the infrastructure in place we cannot give more information. The issue has been briefly discussed in the last SC-meeting and we would ask you (the team here at the website list) to come up with a proposal this week. Please consider, that we will never find a solution that fits all and we will see migrations of infrastrucure in the next year anyway. So please help us to get a good start - but let us start. regards, André Hi everyone As you can see, the SC is giving us this week to figure out our choice of CMS. Having now the specs., we have narrowed down the choice to Silverstripe and Drupal. Here are the demo sites: Silverstripes: http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/ -- advocated by Christian Lohmaier Dupal: http://www.mywebclass.org/~bhorst/contact -- advocated by Keith Williams From here we should first examine if both of these fill the basic requirements as laid out in the specs up above. I've added the specs to the wiki page, plus a few others I thought deserve discussion: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Evaluation_of_CMS_Platforms No one has edited this page but me, since it was first created by Per and Drew. Please read and edit the page so that we can cover all our expected requirements fully. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Website and wiki design
Bernhard, On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:22 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Per, all, sorry for stepping in so late, but this community is evolving so quickly that you can't keep in track even with the most important tasks. Per Eriksson schrieb: Hi everybody, I was looking at the Fedora project and how nicely they have integrated their normal website with their wiki. The navigation between the sites works seamlessly, and they look very much the same. I would like to see even more integration. Why do we need a visible distinction between wiki and website? It would be sufficient (in my eyes) to differ between static and modifiable content. If the URL shows /wiki/ or not is quite irrelevant for the user, if he reads static content|proposals for improvement (linking to the same webpage as wiki page hosting ideas for improvement and a discussion page) or the wiki navigation with Page|Discussion|Read|Edit|View history. (I don't see a reason for a Page and a Read tab in the wiki, but I'm not very deeply involved in wikis). I'd add these tabs as a second level of tabs just below the main navigation (if this is possible) and keep the wiki tabs (perhaps just a few main expandable entries) on the static webpages too. With integrated search functionality over both areas this might improve user's experience with our site... I don't know if I can come up with a mockup during the next days, but I hope you understand what I mean. These seem like great points. Have you had the chance to think them over further, or to create a mockup yet? I agree that the distinction between site and wiki is probably meaningless and confusing to a normal user, though maybe less so if the wiki is used just as a community tool and the website fully covers end-user needs. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] CMS requirements / suitability testing
the default book module which provides you with a 9-level page hierarchy. Those are the basic requirements that come to my mind Well, Drupal has another killer feature if you consider the structure of the OOo community: with the Code-Driven Development techniques, you can collaborate remotely and work together on a site at the same time. For most CMSs this is impossible because settings (like, how many items should be displayed in the latest news block in the homepage; or what additional modules are installed) are stored in the database, and this forbids to have separate development sandboxes and merging them cleanly. With Code-Driven Development, you export all your settings to PHP code automatically, merging is clean and safe and versioning is effective again: you can browse the SVN/GIT/mercurial history and see what settings were changed and when. This way you also solve the major drawback in database-based CMSs, i.e., tracking changes that are normally buried in database. I guess this is the reason why the OOo Templates/Extensions site is managed by a single developer: cooperation would be very hard on that old (Drupal 5) infrastructure. I'd be happy if someone else could do this for drupal or whatever other CMS you think should be in the closer choice. Got it! Yes, I understand there are only words above, and you would like to see a concrete, dedicated, demo site. Based on my experience in the OOo community, I would totally go for a code-driven approach because this is the crucial advantage Drupal 6 offers on other database-based CMSs; I haven't seen Keith's initial setup, but if it follows this approach I'll happily have a look. Otherwise... OK, tell me if there is still interest in a Drupal demo and willingness for a fair assessment and we'll see. The above represents a great and well-conceived plan. Have you made any progress in it so far? Or, are you able to work with the Drupal demo site that Keith set up in the past few days? http://www.mywebclass.org/~bhorst/ username: admin password: bhorst$1234 I'd like to give it a theme to match the current TDF website--any chance you can help create one in the next few days? Thanks, Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Hi Graham, On Oct 19, 2010, at 4:58 PM, Graham Lauder wrote: On Wednesday 20 Oct 2010 02:16:38 Benjamin Horst wrote: On Oct 19, 2010, at 8:56 AM, Graham Lauder wrote: On Tuesday 19 Oct 2010 12:39:56 Keith Williams wrote: Yes, I respect Christian, but I don't feel that he is giving this issue sufficient balance. Having only installed Silverstripe once in a demo instance is no substitute for real-world experience with a platform. You may be disappointed in the half-complete Drupal Demo we've tried to set up, but I and colleagues have implemented Drupal in dozens of real-world sites for a vast array of clients, and it has stood up to the test. And please, don't think I don't rate your contribution over the years as highly. :) and I thank you for giving time to the debate. Thank you. My only motivation here is to help build the best system I know how, while working within the community processes or best practices we have been developing. The kicker for me though is that at some point in any OSS project roles change or people get added to teams for this sort of admin. The number of admins will expand quickly for all the various projects and the faster they are up to speed on any CMS, the better. To me Silverstripe wins this hands down. I think quite differently here. There are far more people in the FLOSS world familiar with Drupal, some of OOo's infrastructure has already been in Drupal, and new people who have used CMSs in the past likely have encountered Drupal. It's tested, it's robust, and it's widely known. Fair comment and I would agree that the Drupal community is extensive and passionate, however my experience has shown in the past that the passion can get in the way of practicality, however having said that, my thanks for your reasoned debate to this point. Passion without thorough analysis is definitely not the way to make a technical decision. However, I don't think we are faced with that situation here. :) My point was that people who are Drupal Geeks, while they may be out there, are not always Office Suite Geeks like you and I, the people who will end up administering this will invariably be the latter However, my mind is always open and if evidence is shown to the contrary I'll be happy to put my small weight behind it. I should probably point out here that the IIRC Daniel Carrera set up the ingots site on Drupal. http://www.theingots.org Ian Lynch could confirm or correct that. Another example of existing Drupal sites in the wide cosmos of OOo, LibO and related sites. (Viewing the page source confirms it's using Drupal.) Once the site is configured, it will be easy enough to administer by technically-savvy people who may not be Drupal experts. Any Drupal experts can certainly take a reduced advisory role after launch, with no detriment to the project. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Christian, On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: On Oct 18, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: We're working on this, but again, it's not a one-person decision here. Yes, it's not. But those people who will make the decision should have something to compare. I fully agree here. But again: Who else but those who are advocating for a specific platform, those who tell they have experience with the system are more suited to setup a demo? Especially if everybody is telling that you need to put quite some time into configuring it until it fits all your needs? Those who have said this were envisioning far more complex sites than I believe you were imagining. To replicate the current static site will not require a great deal of configuration whatsoever. I don't think the onus is on everyone to prove to you personally that Drupal is best suited No, not to me personally. Me included, but not exclusively to me. So far only the ones that maintain a drupal site themselves are in favor or drupal, the users didn't really had a chance to make up their mind yet. (And those who were and tried out silverstripe, prefer silverstripe over the current drupal demo) I think this is not a valid comparison, unfortunately, until after Keith shared full admin credentials to his demo late this afternoon (Tuesday). At that point, several people seemed more supportive of Drupal. to the task; I think it's the reverse. If you're setting yourself up as the gatekeeper here, Kind of, since I won't blindly follow whomever shouts loudest. I'm active in the OOo community for the last ten years, so I consider myself as experienced community member, I have been active in the website project at OOo, am in the admin group taking care of the servers. This is good, but you're not the only one who has been active this long. Further, new contributors can also provide fresh new ideas that should be weighed on their merits, not based on their newness to the project. Finally, at the moment, you seem to be shouting the loudest while covering your ears to my suggestions. But I'm surely not the only one who will make that decision. Again to stress it: It is the content editors/native-lang people basically who'll work with it, so it needs to be easy to use for /them/, not nice for the admin. If both is combined, the better, but if the UI for the user sucks, then sorry, you're out of the game. I agree, but the Drupal UI is strong, so I don't see the problem. then you need to be impartial and test both suggested platforms yourself. Test: Yes, I fully agree. Set it up myself and then having to face comments like you don't know it, you should have done it otherwise, install module xy and everythign works, etc.: No, thanks. We're not in contention here. I will be happy to talk you through as much as I know without blaming you for not knowing what modules need to be enabled for which functionality. Or, better, we can simply work with Keith's demo now that he's shared the admin credentials with the list. If you're setting yourself up as an advocate of one platform, then you cannot also be the person to make the final decision. But I can always defend my personal opinion. And honestly: That what I saw from the drupal demos doesn't kick it for me. It just doesn't fit the usecase of the website. (And I take the current OOo website as reference here, since I expect the organization and use to be very, very similar) It fits the usecase of the website very well. Please explain what you think is missing? On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: Silverstripe looks like a nice CMS, but not the best match for our requirements. Then please point out what it lacks for our requirements, what requirement you're talking about here. See my next line. For a large site supporting dynamic activities What do you mean with dynamic activities? Allowing site members to create content, working groups, discussions and comments, and similar actions. [...] since you are already biased toward one particular system and have not spent your time evenly evaluating the proposed alternative. Well, I'n not getting tired to write that I'll happily evaluate it, but that I'm not setting it up myself. I laid out the reasons for this multiple times. You seem to have sufficient time to spend on this project. But we can work from Keith's demo going forward. Turning your above statement around--just because you built a pretty demo in Silverstripe, does not mean that it will scale (in terms of functionality) to address the full site needs of LibreOffice. This is my single largest concern--if we start with Silverstripe, we may grow into its limitations pretty quickly. Then we have
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Hello, On Oct 18, 2010, at 4:37 AM, Andre Schnabel wrote: Hi, I see that there are lots of discussion, which CMS to use, what features are needed ... at the other hand, users and language teams need more info at our website - nad without the infrastructure in place we cannot give more information. The issue has been briefly discussed in the last SC-meeting and we would ask you (the team here at the website list) to come up with a proposal this week. Please consider, that we will never find a solution that fits all and we will see migrations of infrastrucure in the next year anyway. So please help us to get a good start - but let us start. I have been advocating we use Drupal, and over the past week it appears that others have come to the same consensus (especially after Andrea Pescetti joined the discussion and pointed out several facts, including that the OOo Template and Extension sites use Drupal. Further, the current version, newer than what those sites use, provides several major improvements that will benefit us.) Please, if anyone feels differently, chime in here now! In addition, I have worked on a site outline and wireframes of several pages. This is a draft but I feel it's a solid foundation for the IA of our website. You can download the file here: http://www.solidoffice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/LibreOffice-Homepage-Wires1.odg Thanks, Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] CMS requirements / suitability testing
Andrea, On Oct 16, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: I'd be happy if someone else could do this for drupal or whatever other CMS you think should be in the closer choice. Got it! Yes, I understand there are only words above, and you would like to see a concrete, dedicated, demo site. Based on my experience in the OOo community, I would totally go for a code-driven approach because this is the crucial advantage Drupal 6 offers on other database-based CMSs; I haven't seen Keith's initial setup, but if it follows this approach I'll happily have a look. Otherwise... OK, tell me if there is still interest in a Drupal demo and willingness for a fair assessment and we'll see. Best regards, Andrea Pescetti. I have begun working on a demo site but haven't had much time to progress. Do you want to work together with me to build it out? Feel free to email me on or off-list and we can discuss the details, and I can share access credentials privately, if you need them. Thanks, Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS
Christian, You had dropped off the discussion for the past several days, so I wasn't sure if you were still following. On Oct 18, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Benjamin, *, On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote: On Oct 18, 2010, at 4:37 AM, Andre Schnabel wrote: Please consider, that we will never find a solution that fits all and we will see migrations of infrastrucure in the next year anyway. So please help us to get a good start - but let us start. I have been advocating we use Drupal, [...] Please, if anyone feels differently, chime in here now! Well, of course I have another picture. So far, while promised, there's no usable drupal demo out there that meets the needs layed out before, whereas silverstripe is available and being tried out currently by a small group from german-lang project. So I'm strongly in favor of silverstripe... However, I think you're the only one. :) I've counted roughly 4-5 people who are in favor of Drupal, including Andrea Pescetti, who replied to the thread at length on Oct 16. Please read Andrea's email because it includes very good points. Silverstripe does not seem to offer the groupware functionality that Drupal can provide us--which lets ad hoc groups form to support various projects, like marketing initiatives for specific regions or around specific events. It's a very powerful paradigm that would be great for our work. Take a look at an example of it in use at the NYC Drupal user group: http://groups.drupal.org/nyc This is something we could replicate for regional LibO groups, and it's powerful!) If I don't have time to install a complete Drupal demo site (because I have a demanding day job), that is not a sufficient reason to run roughshod over the request by myself and other community members to give it a fair review. Christian--you seem to have the time to install and test Silverstripe, but you refuse to install Drupal. Why not go ahead and test it side-by-side, yourself? We're not looking for an acceptable CMS, we're looking for the best CMS for our purposes. And I think we need you to be an advocate for the best outcome, not for a particular CMS that happened to be the first one you found that worked for you. (We can't stop searching at the first acceptable option; we need to fairly compare all top candidates for current and expected future requirements.) -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Website Information Architecture and Wireframes
Per and everyone, Continuing with the IA and wireframing work I started last week, here's a new revision that I think moves in a positive direction. Your feedback on this will be very helpful! I have added an intro page to the document, with an outline of all pages I think the site needs. It's followed by wireframes of two of the most important pages. (I'll add others as I am able.) The file is here: http://www.solidoffice.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/LibreOffice-Homepage-Wires1.odg I've also been looking into Mozilla for examples of good implementations and came across this very useful page: Social Media Toolkit | Spread Firefox - http://www.spreadfirefox.com/socialmediatoolkit It will be great to leverage some of their suggestions for LibreOffice as well. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
