subject:"Re\: \[libreoffice\-website\] \[SC\] Decision about CMS"

Hi Marc, *,

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 Le 2010-10-18 04:37, Andre Schnabel a écrit :

 I have updated the Wiki and tried to be as impartial as possible. For the
 lack of time, with answering as many posting on the Website mailist, the
 Drupal team could not rally and get a good solid example of a working Drupal
 TDF/LibO site. The Silverstripe came out of the starting gate (on the day of
 request from André) with a working example of a TDF/LibO site.

To correct on this: The thread about evaluating a CMS, with the
request to build corresponding demos was started by me much earlier
than the SC posting.

 To be fair,
 this left the Drupal team little time to organise and put forth a decent
 demo-site as well as manage the discussions on the mailist.

No, to be fair one has to note that drupal, while loudly advocating it
didn't use that time to build one.

 [...]

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

Hi Benjamin,

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com wrote:
 On Oct 21, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
 [...]
 If the Drupal demo allows all this *now*, I'd ask Christian to have one more 
 look at the demo.

 Yes, I believe Drupal offers everything listed above and on the wiki page.

Read again: Not Drupal, but a really existing demo that can be checked out.

I just now had a quick look again, and the editor still doesn't
provide an obvious way to add links to other pages on the same site.
There's an unlink button, but no link button.

I don't see any traces from a workflow system - either you publish or
you don't there's no way to have it requested for publication to have
it checked by others, etc.

 [...]

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-22 02:57, David Nelson a écrit :

Hi Marc, :-)

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 00:21, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com  wrote:

I'll add you to the list. Is there a preference of CMS?


No, I'll go with whatever CMS the project decides to use.

David Nelson


Thanks David.

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-22 Thread André Schnabel


Hi,


Am 22.10.2010 15:56, schrieb Marc Paré:





I am in total agreement with these statements. The process was somehow
not well organized. Still, we managed to discuss it. We need to organise
these kind of thing a little formally as well as strategically next
time. This will ensure better results.


For sure - next time there will be more time for strategies. I'd suggest 
to discuss what the next strategical topics might be for the website 
team :)


( Imo communites like ours should be self-regulating 99% of the time - 
there should be only very few circumstances where regulation from top 
is needed.)


regards,

André

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-22 12:29, André Schnabel a écrit :

Hi,


Am 22.10.2010 15:56, schrieb Marc Paré:





I am in total agreement with these statements. The process was somehow
not well organized. Still, we managed to discuss it. We need to organise
these kind of thing a little formally as well as strategically next
time. This will ensure better results.


For sure - next time there will be more time for strategies. I'd suggest
to discuss what the next strategical topics might be for the website
team :)

( Imo communites like ours should be self-regulating 99% of the time -
there should be only very few circumstances where regulation from top
is needed.)

regards,

André



Thanks for the note André. I am still trying to get the feel for how the 
hierarchy works at LibO.


I have been taking part/lurking in many mailists and threads and one of 
my concerns are that, as we found here, there has been no real formal 
structure setup for the group membership. Voting on the CMS matter was 
there rendered ineffective.


May I suggest that the SC send out a call to all important 
groups/discussion topics that they now formalise their membership ranks 
through the Wiki?


For example, members who have a passionate interest in a group, 
website/marketing/UI/Logo/ etc (note that the SC would have to identify 
the categories) should be called on to register their ID's on the Wiki 
and start a Wiki page for their section with a link back to their 
members. The membership would be reviewed from time to time to cull the 
inactive members.


This would be a great first step as this would clearly identify the 
members interested and active on their respective teams. These members 
should then elect a spokesperson for their group.


This will make for more effective and focussed discussions. Membership 
voting is then rendered possible where needed and if a general 
consensus from the general membership vote is needed this is also 
possible.


Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-22 Thread Andy Brown


On Fri Oct 22 2010 17:14:23 GMT-0700 (PDT)  Christian Lohmaier wrote:


What on earth, by looking at the demo site (on
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780) makes you think that it wouldn't scale?
And if the site of the democratic convention is not a site that had a
need for scalability, of the one from the public transportation
provider, etc.

So please: Don't just make claims, explain them.



Christian,

How does one go about testing the demo listing above?  All I see is a 
copy of the TDF web pages.  There is no login that I can see.


Andy


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-22 Thread Andy Brown


On Fri Oct 22 2010 17:29:09 GMT-0700 (PDT)  Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi Andy,

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:

How does one go about testing the demo listing above?  All I see is a copy
of the TDF web pages.  There is no login that I can see.


See http://www.mail-archive.com/website@libreoffice.org/msg00337.html



Thank you.

Andy

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-22 20:43, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :

Hi Marc,

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:37 AM, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com  wrote:

Le 2010-10-22 20:29, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:23 AM, Andy Browna...@the-martin-byrd.net
  wrote:


How does one go about testing the demo listing above?  All I see is a
copy
of the TDF web pages.  There is no login that I can see.


See http://www.mail-archive.com/website@libreoffice.org/msg00337.html


Thanks for the link. How would a user like me, be able to test out the site
live?


It would help to tell at which part of the instructions from the
linked mail you experience the problem.

Is it adding the hostnames to the hosts file? If so, then you'd state
your operating system to give more detailed instrcutions - if it is
the login-credentials, there are sandbox-author, sandbox-publisher and
sanbox-admin users defined, the corresponding is the parts switched
around foo-bar has password bar-foo

To login/change pages, you append /admin to the base-URL, i.e. visit
http://sandbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/admin
(after adding sadnbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org to your hosts file, so that
your computer knows which IP to connect to)

HTH, if not, then plese explain in more details where the problems are.

ciao
Christiansettig up the



Ok, I am more of a user than a dev, as you have probably seen from my 
posts. To get to the user demo site, I am on a Mandriva system. How 
would I then access your demo site. I don't quite understand why the 
test site is not viewable directly. Or am I doing something wrong?


Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

Hi Marc, *,

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:53 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:

 Ok, I am more of a user than a dev, as you have probably seen from my posts.
 To get to the user demo site, I am on a Mandriva system. How would I then
 access your demo site. I don't quite understand why the test site is not
 viewable directly. Or am I doing something wrong?

Because those hostnames are not registered in a dns server.

When you request a site with a name name.of.site, your computer asks
a domain name server for the ip the server belongs to. now your
computer knows that the request needs to be sent to the address
171.24.1.242 for example.
But there are no such entries for de.pumbaa.ooodev.org or
sandbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org or silverbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org - thus when
you don't add the host-entries, your computer again asks the dns
server and that reponds with sorry, don't know its address and you
get a host not found.

By manually adding the listing to your hostfile, your computer doesn't
need to ask the DNS server, since it can already read that information
from the /etc/hosts file, knows that sandbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org is
reachable with the ip address 188.40.32.145

So on linux, edit the file /etc/hosts as root user. It should by
default contain a line
127.0.0.1  localhost append the lines

188.40.32.145 silverbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org
188.40.32.145 sandbox.pumbaa.ooodev.org
188.40.32.145 de.pumbaa.ooodev.org

to that file and save and close the file. Now you can access the sites.

As you can see all three (and pumbaa.ooodev.org itself as well) use
the same IP, the hostname is used to distinguish the subsites in this
case.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

Hi Marc,

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:23 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote:
 Le 2010-10-22 21:03, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :
 [...]
 I am just a little confused. I thought I had been on your demo site a while
 ago and now it is no longer accessible from the member list unless they go
 through this setup?

Well - http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780 is accessible just like before,
although for the foundation-page copy I never provided public login
credentials. That part of the demo was just to show that you can
easily adapt the style (visual appearance) to whatever you want, and
can also include custom javascript stuff like the photoshuffler on
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/libreoffice/ or how translations could
be added on http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/ or
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/contact/ for example, and also that you
can have comments on sites like e.g. the
http://pumbaa.ooodev.org:7780/faq/

 I was wondering if this was a common method of operating with demos, as most
 of the membership could not in fact test-try your demo for comparison's
 sake. On the other hand, maybe you removed the site from an easier access
 venue to this type of access?

No - it didn't change anything compared to the previous weeks - and
honestly I don't understand what you want so say with that paragraph.

I asked to compare the demo, to try out silverstripe before
complaining, etc. But nobody did complain about not being able to
access the demo, so I don't quite see the problem.

The only time where problems have been mentioned when the demo was
down for a couple of hours when the host was rebooted, but that wasn't
related to the setup itself.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-22 21:44, Christian Lohmaier a écrit :


I was wondering if this was a common method of operating with demos, as most
of the membership could not in fact test-try your demo for comparison's
sake. On the other hand, maybe you removed the site from an easier access
venue to this type of access?


No - it didn't change anything compared to the previous weeks - and
honestly I don't understand what you want so say with that paragraph.



Sorry if you think there was some ulterior meaning behind this. I just 
assumed that a demo would also include at least a user log/pswrd for 
people to test-try the site by just surfing to the site. But as you 
said, no one complained about this.



The only time where problems have been mentioned when the demo was
down for a couple of hours when the host was rebooted, but that wasn't
related to the setup itself.


Yes, if this was somtime this afternoon (Canadian EDT time) then that is 
when I tried to access the site when I was updating the Wiki.




ciao
Christian





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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Erich Christian

Am 21.10.2010 03:27, schrieb Marc Paré:
 Le 2010-10-20 17:59, Drew Jensen a écrit :
 This heavey emphasis on
 allowing rather unskilled people to produce widely varying web sites,
 and they really can be, both in appearance and User Interaction patterns
 is something that _will_ be neeeded, not just a like.
 Again, that is how I am seeing it - if I'm misrepresenting the thoughts
 of the language team needs please correct me vigorously.

[...]
 Drew, are you then saying that TDF will not set guidelines as to a
 common theme and a set of guidelines as to the format/look of all
 localization sites? Or are the localization sites pretty well free to
 format and theme their sites as they wish?

building out and maintaining that monster over the last 10 years was
not something I worked in - but some of the people adding comments to
this list, and the de list on this subject, where some of those people.

 Also, you speak of the German mailist are also talking of this subject.
 Is there any way that we could hear what they are saying? Or if you
 could point out the the mailist-threads where they are chatting about
 this we could have a quick look to see if there are any arguments of
 interest. Or should they be on this thread debating as well along with
 us? IMHO, it would be better if we were all debating on the same mailist.

Hi Marc, Drew,

The thread on the german list is rather about using the silverstripe
demo than on a different look and feel or use of the upcoming de
website, and yes, we're here on this list together with you  :-)

Erich

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Christian Lohmaier

Hi Keith,

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:36 AM, Keith Williams
kwilli...@thoughtfarmproductions.com wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Christian Lohmaier 
 lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com lohmaier%2booofut...@googlemail.comwrote:

 Look Christian, I don't use email to communicate with groups of people.

That's probably the reason why you keep writing the same stuff over
and over again.

  I
 use comments on discussion boards.   I really don't know what you mean full
 quotes and frankly at this point I don't care.

Do I want to collaborate with you with that attitude? Probably not.

 *Show me a sophisticated website based on Silverstripe, you can't because
 there isn't.*

There is, just look at the work the silverstirpe.com people had
prepared, but again: That is not the question here.

 Is the Drupal demo that we setup perfect... NO.  Did it let people jump in
 and use it YES.

Did drupal advocates here on the list turn it into a usable site yet? NO.

 Is Drupal proven to provide community building YES.

that doesn't matter if it doesn't work for us.
And that is all that counts.

 Right now you have a Drupal demo site, so people can do what they want, so
 it looks like a Jackson Pollock painting.   Would this be your Production
 system NO. You have no argument for using Silverstripe other than it does
 the bare minimum of the requirements

Not the bare minimum. It does /all/ that it is supposed to do.

 and it's so limited that you can't do
 much with it beyond posting pages, so you can't screw it up.

Noone so far posted a requirement that would not be possible to do
with silverstripe.

 Even you admit
 that Drupal can do a lot, its obvious, proven, demonstrated, and certified
 on 100k+ websites that use it.

Again I'm tired of that bullshit argument. You /failed/ in
demonstrating your knowledge, the flexibility of drupal with the demo.

You had a big chance to show off, but you didn't. You (and that
doesn't only mean Keith), produced a site I can only laugh about. It's
so sad that it is funny again.

 If you guys were in this with someone that didn't know Drupal inside and
 out, I'd tell you to use the stripe.  But, I'm going to help you and thats
 not a small commitment.  YOu have known Silverstripe for a few weeks at
 best, so lets just lay it on the table buddy...

Well, despite the nice works, nothing worth to demonstrate has been created.

Yes, I don't know silverstripe for long, but I know it long enough to
like it, to have created a site that people want to use for a
production site.
lay that on the table buddy - what did you achieve with the drupal demo yet?

 I know virtually every aspect of Drupal from performance optimization,

Yes, you're so smart, yes you fail to apply your knowledge.

 module development to theming.  I AM able to quickly setup your website to
 do what you need

You might be, but you're not willing to do so. Maybe when I'd hire you
and pay yout, but so far you only talk big.

 [..]  Do you have someone around here with years of experience
 with Silverstripe?

No. Does it need years of experience to create modules, additional
features for silverstripe: No.
Go figure.

 You seem very angry

yes, because I always write the same stuff over and over again, and
you just don't listen.

 and unable to come up with any positive features of
 Silverstripe other than its simple and does the bare minimum of your CMS
 requirements.

What other positive aspects does a CMS need to fulfill apart from:
* Does /everything/ one wants it to do
* Is easy to use
* Is easy to administer

 At first I wanted to defend Drupal against silverstripe, but
 really... I don't need to defend a CMS used and loved by hundreds of
 thousands of people and one that may be the largest open source project on
 the planet.

Yes, you did all you can do to destroy drupal's reputation it had with
me with the demo. Wouldn't it for the large drupal userbase (number of
installations), I'd never had let it progrss so far.

 I don't need to defend a CMS that I can build almost any web
 based application with.

blablablablabla. Yes, you can do anything, but you just don't do it.
And that's the problem.

You write the same stuff in every mail. Instead of wasting the time
writing mails, you should configure the drupal demo properly to do
drupal justice.

I don't know whether you're aware as to what picture you're now
painting of both drupal users/defenders as well as drupal the system
itself.

 [...]  I want a
 system that when I click a button on the admin screen it doesn't show a
 loading screen because it's so UI heavy that it can't load in a reasonable
 amount of time.

Yeah, that fraction of a second you see that screen when you switch to
a completely different part of the interface surly impacts your
productivity more than the full seconds it takes navigating to that
other part of the cms in drupal. yeah, right...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Drew Jensen

On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0400, Drew Jensen should of written:

Thanks to google I ran into the SC minutes where they said for the
website mail _list_ to make a decision and report back to them. It called
for that decision to be made 2 days ago.






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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Drew Jensen

For accuracy sake
 On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0400, Drew Jensen should of written:
 
 Thanks to google I ran into the SC minutes where they said for the
 website mail _list_ to make a decision and report back to them. 

It[1] called for that decision to be made by today. [not 2 days ago]

:-/ ok, think I'm done - waiting for your thoughts quietly now

//drew

[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetingsoldid=836





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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Karl-Heinz Gödderz

Andrea Pescetti schrieb:
 Sophie Gautier wrote:
   
 Just to point that we need to handle i18n and l10n easily also, this
 is important to think this multilanguage way till the beginning.
 

 Then I'll have to ask again what you mean by this!

 1) Having translatable pages (meaning: an English about page at
 http://www.documentfoundation.org/about.html and its French translation
 at http://www.documentfoundation.org/about.fr.html or equivalent)

 2) Having localized websites, with independent structure but same login
 (similar to how CollabNet is working now for OpenOffice.org)

 3) Having both (not acceptable from my point of view, too confusing)
   
Why allways take the en-version as a global?

Why not have a www-version with the xxx-en.html, xxx-fr.html and
xxx-it.html with
maybe fallback to xxx-en.html or xxx-fr.html if the en-version does not
exist.

and beside this the NL-structures as the NL-communities decide themselfes?

 Work on a multilingual site cannot start before deciding on this.

   
+1

Karl-Heinz

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Drew Jensen


  What do you think?
 
 As bad as it can be, the Document Foundation is still an oligarchy. Let
 the SC choose. Then if people believe a simple majority vote is best we
 can go that way, but I'm not sure times are ready for this.
 
 Regards,
   Andrea.
 

Fair enough - anyone see it differently from Andrea?





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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

2010-10-21 Thread Benjamin Horst


On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:

 What do you think?
 
 As bad as it can be, the Document Foundation is still an oligarchy. Let
 the SC choose. Then if people believe a simple majority vote is best we
 can go that way, but I'm not sure times are ready for this.
 
 Regards,
  Andrea.
 
 
 Fair enough - anyone see it differently from Andrea?

I agree with Andrea on this approach.

-Ben


Benjamin Horst
bho...@mac.com
646-464-2314 (Eastern)
www.solidoffice.com


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-21 00:39, David Nelson a écrit :

Hi, :-)

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 05:26, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com  wrote:

Thanks. We are probably at the point again where we should have a show of
hands for people who are willing to help out with website support. I'll make
a note of it on the update progress file that I am keeping.
Anyone else, again?


I'd be pleased to help out with general site admin or in any other
capacity that might be useful.

David Nelson



Hi David,

I'll add you to the list. Is there a preference of CMS?

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS

Le 2010-10-21 10:25, Drew Jensen a écrit :

For accuracy sake

On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0400, Drew Jensen should of written:

Thanks to google I ran into the SC minutes where they said for the
website mail _list_ to make a decision and report back to them.

It[1] called for that decision to be made by today. [not 2 days ago]

:-/ ok, think I'm done - waiting for your thoughts quietly now

//drew

[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/index.php?title=TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetingsoldid=836

Hi Drew:

Thanks for the notes. Obviously the choice of CMS is a very emotional
subject.However, I saw André's call to voice a choice of CMS to adopt
more of a call to voice a recommendation to the SC and then the SC
would make the choice.

Now having said that, we have reduced the options to 2 CMS packages that
we recommend. We have also mounted a Wiki to try to organise our
search/data to explain why/where we got the information. On the Wiki we
have also tried to point out the virtues of the packages and where there
are missing attributes. We have also tried to investigate the possible
admin support from some of our members (mostly based on the present CMS
experience some of the Website members have).

Having said that, the Wiki page should the give the SC some kink of idea
of what the Website members favour. Whether the SC adopt Drupal or
Silverstripe is really not of our concern. We were just given the task
of investigating the possibilities and the results can be found on the Wiki.

Let us know if the SC need anymore information.

As for a vote, I also agree with Andrea and consider the LibO at this
point an oligarchy. I also have not problem with this as we do have to
start somewhere. A vote would definitely NOT be in anyone's interest.

We need to formalise the LibO Website Committee if you really were
thinking this was it. If so, we would have to have a membership list and
these individuals could then vote on the choice of CMS. I don't really
think at this point, this is necessary.

Marc

NB ... I have 2 more admin volunteer names to add to the Wiki and you
could probably lock it down (no more edits) for the SC to look at.
That is, if the main contributors to this thread are in agreement.

Marc

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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS


Le 2010-10-21 00:39, David Nelson a écrit :

Hi, :-)

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 05:26, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com  wrote:

Thanks. We are probably at the point again where we should have a show of
hands for people who are willing to help out with website support. I'll make
a note of it on the update progress file that I am keeping.
Anyone else, again?


I'd be pleased to help out with general site admin or in any other
capacity that might be useful.

David Nelson



Hi David:

Thanks for adding yourself to the Wiki admin volunteer list.

Cheers

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] [SC] Decision about CMS