Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
We could also implement as scheduled, but refrain from using pending changes in mainspace until we're ready. This way, reviewers could start testing in Wikipedia namespace before it's rolled out on articles. The issue of using level 2 PC-protection is not resolved yet, so we may request a configuration change if there's consensus for not using it. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Cenarium sysop cenarium.sy...@gmail.comwrote: You'll soon have your answer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reviewing#Proposing_a_delay_to_trial_implementation. There are many outstanding issues to address and still quite a deal of preparation to be made. Again people didn't get involved until a launch date was fixed, it may be hard to define one in advance, but that's how it is. On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 2:46 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: On 14 June 2010 01:42, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: On 06/13/2010 03:59 PM, David Goodman wrote: There has never been agreement for more than the 2,000. It will be necessary to ask the community at that point whether to expand , continue, or end the trial. Ok. Since the 2000 limit initially came from the Foundation side of things rather than from the community, I was being especially careful not to presume. But from the mailing list and on-wiki goings on, it looks like the community prefers a software-enforced numeric limit regardless of technical capacity, so we'll plan to leave the limit in place until we hear otherwise. I think the trial was limited by time, rather than number of articles. It's a 2 month trial, if memory serves. After that we need another poll if we're going to keep it going. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
On 14 June 2010 09:12, Cenarium sysop cenarium.sy...@gmail.com wrote: We could also implement as scheduled, but refrain from using pending changes in mainspace until we're ready. This way, reviewers could start testing in Wikipedia namespace before it's rolled out on articles. The issue of using level 2 PC-protection is not resolved yet, so we may request a configuration change if there's consensus for not using it. Or we could just do it, since objectors have had *three years* to faff about in. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
The issue is not people objecting but preparation of the trial, so it's not chaos. Or you could yourself help in the preparation of the trial, so we'd go faster ? On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:15 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 June 2010 09:12, Cenarium sysop cenarium.sy...@gmail.com wrote: We could also implement as scheduled, but refrain from using pending changes in mainspace until we're ready. This way, reviewers could start testing in Wikipedia namespace before it's rolled out on articles. The issue of using level 2 PC-protection is not resolved yet, so we may request a configuration change if there's consensus for not using it. Or we could just do it, since objectors have had *three years* to faff about in. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
On 06/14/2010 01:12 AM, Cenarium sysop wrote: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Cenarium sysopcenarium.sy...@gmail.comwrote: You'll soon have your answer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reviewing#Proposing_a_delay_to_trial_implementation. There are many outstanding issues to address and still quite a deal of preparation to be made. Again people didn't get involved until a launch date was fixed, it may be hard to define one in advance, but that's how it is. We could also implement as scheduled, but refrain from using pending changes in mainspace until we're ready. This way, reviewers could start testing in Wikipedia namespace before it's rolled out on articles. The issue of using level 2 PC-protection is not resolved yet, so we may request a configuration change if there's consensus for not using it. I am going to stay quite thoroughly out of the discussion as to community readiness or the actual date; the community asked for this ASAP, and if the community changes its mind and wants it enabled later, that's entirely up to the community. However, I do want to say two things. One, delaying isn't free. There has been a lot of work in prep for this, and some of it will have to be done again for a new date, especially on the ops and press sides. If we cancel the June 15th rollout, then once the community is happy that things are sorted, we'll have to go back and find a new date that works for the FlaggedRevs people, the ops people, and the communications people, and hope that we can get time for reporters on Jimmy's calendar again. Two, the community has been asking for this ASAP all year, so any request to delay has to be clear enough and strong enough to obviously override that long-established and widely supported consensus. So far it's 7 to 5, which is neither clear nor strong. Regardless, we will be rolling out the FlaggedRevs code changes to all wikis tonight as scheduled. That should have no effect on enwiki and hopefully small effects on current FlaggedRevs users, so there's no reason to delay that part of it. William ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
No. This may not be ideal but that is certainly worse. Damn the torpedos! ~A On Monday, June 14, 2010, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: On 06/14/2010 01:12 AM, Cenarium sysop wrote: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Cenarium sysopcenarium.sy...@gmail.comwrote: You'll soon have your answer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Reviewing#Proposing_a_delay_to_trial_implementation. There are many outstanding issues to address and still quite a deal of preparation to be made. Again people didn't get involved until a launch date was fixed, it may be hard to define one in advance, but that's how it is. We could also implement as scheduled, but refrain from using pending changes in mainspace until we're ready. This way, reviewers could start testing in Wikipedia namespace before it's rolled out on articles. The issue of using level 2 PC-protection is not resolved yet, so we may request a configuration change if there's consensus for not using it. I am going to stay quite thoroughly out of the discussion as to community readiness or the actual date; the community asked for this ASAP, and if the community changes its mind and wants it enabled later, that's entirely up to the community. However, I do want to say two things. One, delaying isn't free. There has been a lot of work in prep for this, and some of it will have to be done again for a new date, especially on the ops and press sides. If we cancel the June 15th rollout, then once the community is happy that things are sorted, we'll have to go back and find a new date that works for the FlaggedRevs people, the ops people, and the communications people, and hope that we can get time for reporters on Jimmy's calendar again. Two, the community has been asking for this ASAP all year, so any request to delay has to be clear enough and strong enough to obviously override that long-established and widely supported consensus. So far it's 7 to 5, which is neither clear nor strong. Regardless, we will be rolling out the FlaggedRevs code changes to all wikis tonight as scheduled. That should have no effect on enwiki and hopefully small effects on current FlaggedRevs users, so there's no reason to delay that part of it. William ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l -- ~A ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wikipedia_to_loosen_controls_tonight.php Spotted by Nihiltres. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
On 14 June 2010 19:22, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wikipedia_to_loosen_controls_tonight.php Spotted by Nihiltres. groan The George Bush page is not going to be part of this trial, because there is no reasonable chance that the tiny, tiny percentage of useful edits will make up for all the vandalism and BLP violations that will be added. That was possibly the one thing that everyone working on the encyclopedia end of the trial came to agreement on very quickly. Risker/Anne ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
Have there been any other media outlets, blogs, etc. who see Pending Changes as a loosening of controls? I haven't; perhaps I've been hanging around with the community too much who say it will be more restrictive than before :) -MuZemike On 6/14/2010 6:39 PM, Risker wrote: On 14 June 2010 19:22, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wikipedia_to_loosen_controls_tonight.php Spotted by Nihiltres. groan The George Bush page is not going to be part of this trial, because there is no reasonable chance that the tiny, tiny percentage of useful edits will make up for all the vandalism and BLP violations that will be added. That was possibly the one thing that everyone working on the encyclopedia end of the trial came to agreement on very quickly. Risker/Anne ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
On 15/06/2010, MuZemike muzem...@gmail.com wrote: Have there been any other media outlets, blogs, etc. who see Pending Changes as a loosening of controls? I haven't; perhaps I've been hanging around with the community too much who say it will be more restrictive than before :) To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone knows, it will probably depend on what policies are built around it. -MuZemike -- -Ian Woollard ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
On 06/14/2010 06:46 PM, Ian Woollard wrote: On 15/06/2010, MuZemikemuzem...@gmail.com wrote: Have there been any other media outlets, blogs, etc. who see Pending Changes as a loosening of controls? I haven't; perhaps I've been hanging around with the community too much who say it will be more restrictive than before:) To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone knows, it will probably depend on what policies are built around it. I agree completely that the outcome is really up to the community. But personally, it's my hope that this will open things up. Certainly the articles selected for initial trial of this represent an opening, in that all the users who could edit before still can, and the ones that couldn't can now easily propose edits, ones that are likely to be accepted. William ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:19 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: On 06/14/2010 06:46 PM, Ian Woollard wrote: On 15/06/2010, MuZemikemuzem...@gmail.com wrote: Have there been any other media outlets, blogs, etc. who see Pending Changes as a loosening of controls? I haven't; perhaps I've been hanging around with the community too much who say it will be more restrictive than before:) To be perfectly honest, I don't think anyone knows, it will probably depend on what policies are built around it. I agree completely that the outcome is really up to the community. But personally, it's my hope that this will open things up. Certainly the articles selected for initial trial of this represent an opening, in that all the users who could edit before still can, and the ones that couldn't can now easily propose edits, ones that are likely to be accepted. People should really avoid the poisonous propose language. An edit is an edit. An act in completion by itself. For it to not stick it must be _reverted_, another act— not something passive. Perhaps it might sit unflagged for some time... but even in the worst case someone with the authority will eventually want their own changes to be displayed and at that point they must choose: revert or accept. Words matter, at least sometimes, and I fear propose presents problems both for the motivation of new users to contribute and in the personal restraint experienced users must display by avoiding the trap of OWNing articles. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
On 06/14/2010 08:22 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: An edit is an edit. An act in completion by itself. For it to not stick it must be_reverted_, another act— not something passive. Perhaps it might sit unflagged for some time... but even in the worst case someone with the authority will eventually want their own changes to be displayed and at that point they must choose: revert or accept. Words matter, at least sometimes, and I fear propose presents problems both for the motivation of new users to contribute and in the personal restraint experienced users must display by avoiding the trap of OWNing articles. Agreed 100%. Sorry for misspeaking. William ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
Despite the fact that I do have reservations about several aspects of this
trial deployment, I do recognise that this is indeed a *trial*, and that the
purpose of a trial is to learn, and to try out new ideas to see whether they
work in whole or in part. The opportunity to learn is the reason that I
feel we should proceed at this time.
Having said that, I feel extremely strongly that we need to be willing to
take extra steps to protect the editors (particularly the non-admins) who
are putting their editorial reputations on the line to help us find out if
this is a workable process. We need for the participants to make mistakes
(so we can figure out how to fix them), to give us honest feedback from the
ordinary editor perspective, to make sure that the tool works in the way
it's expected to, and to figure out whether the parameters we've set for
tool use are realistic and viable.
I think one thing that is missing from this entire trial process is that
there are no broadly accepted objectives, and conflicting supposed
measurables for determining whether or not the tool has made a difference.
These are some of the things I've heard bandied about:
*Pending changes will encourage more non-editors to try to edit, and these
new editors will become part of our community.
---Just because someone edits an article doesn't mean that they actually
helped. We will have no realistic way of measuring how many new editors made
useful edits and how many made vandalistic ones. Nor, if they are IP
editors, will we be able to say with any certainty whether they actually
stick around to become contributing editors.
---I'd like to hear from someone in the know whether or not we will be able
to determine if new accounts created during this period had their first edit
on an article under pending changes protection. If we can't tell that, then
we cannot attribute any higher-than-usual number of new editors to the use
of this tool.
*Pending changes will protect more BLPs.
---The same criteria for protection continue to apply. If the article does
not qualify for semi- or full protection, it does not qualify for pending
changes either. Pending changes is being billed as an alternative to semi-
or full protection and is explicitly not to be used as a means to extend
protection to articles that would not otherwise qualify. At the end of the
trial, there should be no significant difference in the total number of
articles covered by one of the three forms of protection than there is at
the time we start the clock.
*Pending changes will help stop edit wars
---Edit wars are content disputes, and need to proceed through our normal
content discussion process; pages that have been protected because of edit
wars are not eligible for pending changes. The only exception is if an
article is semi-protected to keep anons/unconfirmed users from repeatedly
adding the same vandalistic or BLP-violating material, and that is vandalism
control as opposed to edit-warring.
*Pending changes will reduce visible vandalism
---Um, no. If every review of a pending change is carried out correctly,
there should be no difference in the amount of vandalism viewable by the
general reader. That's because otherwise the articles would have been semi-
or fully protected, and almost all vandalistic edits would have been
rejected by the software.
*Nobody's being prevented from editing in the way they always have
---We won't know until we try this part. If we see autoconfirmed editors
having their edits caught in the pending review queues of articles on Level
1 pending changes, then this is patently false; their edits have always been
publicly visible from the time they hit save. This is data that would be
really valuable to capture, if there is a way to do so.
---As well, editors who take on reviewer permissions will automatically
have their edits accepted, even on formerly fully protected articles (should
we decide to try Level 2 pending changes). The reviewer permission goes with
them everywhere, so they will now have to review any pending changes before
making their own edits to articles that may be part of the trial.
*Anonymous editors will now be able to edit the [[George W. Bush]] and
[[Barack Obama]] articles
---No they won't. This was actually one of the first, and easiest decisions
made by the on-wiki team looking at trial implementation processes. There is
no reasonable chance that the number of useful edits will make up for the
incessant vandalism and BLP violations in what are already a {{good}} and
{{featured}} article respectively. They certainly won't be part of the
trial, and even if the community decides to continue using this tool, almost
every other BLP in the entire project would be a better candidate for
pending changes than these ones. Even the German Wikipedia still has some
protected articles.
Sonow that I have deflated everyone's expectationsWe really do need
to think about what we would consider to be a useful outcome in
Re: [WikiEN-l] Community ready for Pending Changes (nee Flagged Protection)?
On 06/14/2010 09:56 PM, Risker wrote: If there is no intention at this time to stop the trial and deactivate the extension on August 15th, I'd like the WMF and the developers to say so now. This is, as the community requested, a 60-day trial. At the end of that, unless the community clearly requests otherwise, we'll turn it back off. Assuming that the trial starts on time, it will also end on time. I'll note that both the start and the end of the trial are mainly up to the community. People have to agree to start using it, and which articles to start with. At the end, if there is no decision to extend the trial or to permanently adopt Pending Changes, the community will probably need to go and switch all Pending Changes articles to something else. (Unless they'd like us just to switch them en masse to, say, semi-protection, but that seems a bit crude.) So I think the real question isn't the WMF's intention; it's the community's intention. As it should be. William ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Pending Changes: first press
Gregory Maxwell wrote: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:19 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: I agree completely that the outcome is really up to the community. But personally, it's my hope that this will open things up. Certainly the articles selected for initial trial of this represent an opening, in that all the users who could edit before still can, and the ones that couldn't can now easily propose edits, ones that are likely to be accepted. People should really avoid the poisonous propose language. An edit is an edit. An act in completion by itself. For it to not stick it must be _reverted_, another act— not something passive. Perhaps it might sit unflagged for some time... but even in the worst case someone with the authority will eventually want their own changes to be displayed and at that point they must choose: revert or accept. Words matter, at least sometimes, and I fear propose presents problems both for the motivation of new users to contribute and in the personal restraint experienced users must display by avoiding the trap of OWNing articles. +1 Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
