Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On 10/03/11 8:22 PM, Risker wrote: On 3 October 2011 16:06, Ken Arromdeearrom...@rahul.net wrote: On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Scott MacDonald wrote: I've never understood people's problem with WP:DICK. Because invokin g it is equivalent to calling the other person a dick. Every day, I see perfectly civil people facepalming. I have yet to see a civil person turn to someone in public and say Don't be a dick. I think perhaps some peoples' civility radar is somewhat out of tune. I was unaware of the term facepalm until I read this thread. If someone had tagged me with this symbol, I wouldn't have had a clue about what he was trying to say. It seems that geekish. If somebody is being a jerk isn't it better to bluntly tell him directly instead of drawing upon an unfamiliar term from geekdom. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
If somebody is being a jerk isn't it better to bluntly tell him directly instead of drawing upon an unfamiliar term from geekdom. +1 ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
-Original Message- From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l- boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Morton Sent: 04 October 2011 10:45 To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm? If somebody is being a jerk isn't it better to bluntly tell him directly instead of drawing upon an unfamiliar term from geekdom. +1 ___ Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. (But, ho, you calling a trekie-meme geeky???) Scott ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. FWIW, I've known the face-palm gesture for ages, and never knew it was in any way related to Star Trek. I suspect our article on the topic may be slightly over-egging things there. I've used and seen the facepalm gesture used more like the doh! gesture from The Simpsons. Is it lacking in civility to go DOH! when you get something wrong? Or is it only when you use such terms for what someone else says. I've also mentally seen someone else trip up and fall flat on their face over something (metaphorically speaking) and thought to myself that's a facepalm moment. But only when something is so wrong it is funny, if you get my drift. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Tom Morris t...@tommorris.org wrote: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself. This whole conversation is starting to get a bit WP:DICK-ish... :-) Seriously, have a look at the article on facepalm. It is terrible and might be causing a fair bit of misunderstanding here. For starters, lowering one's face into one's hand is wrong. You raise your palm to your face (as clearly shown in the pictures). The act of lowering your face into *both* hands is known a variant of holding your head in your hands (sometimes shaking the head in despair as well). The Star Trek image in question isn't even a classic facepalm: http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/554/original/facepalm.jpg?1248715065 That is just holding your forehead with one hand supporting the head from the side. A completely different gesture. There is also a similar gesture where you avoid looking at something because it is embarrassing, that involves turning the head away slightly and cringing mentally and covering the eyes. Not to mention slapping your forehead in mock disgust/frustration. Really, we need a better article on body language, with scholarly sources, rather than stubs with urban dictionary references or worse. I suspect looking at the page history will throw up a better version than the current one: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Facepalmoldid=332507973 That version dates from 18 December 2009. The redirect discussion is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2009_December_12 But the article whichever version is used still needs a massive citation needed tag added, and better sources. The monkey stuff seesm to come from the experiment described here: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/02/02/monkey-see-monkey-facepalm/ Trouble is, most easily findable sources are blogs like this: http://www.healthkicker.com/754153008/the-science-of-facepalm/ Which shows that the definition is not exactly stable. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Phil Nash wrote: That's an entirely different proposition from merely being vindictive for its own sake, which seems to be the current modus operandi of ArbCom. Let's not forget Arbcom doesn't make policy, which usually ends up meaning Arbcom constantly makes de-facto policy while pretending not to, and you can't challenge it because since Arbcom doesn't make policy, any Arbcom-made policy you challenge doesn't exist. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.comwrote: FWIW, I've known the face-palm gesture for ages, and never knew it was in any way related to Star Trek. I suspect our article on the topic may be slightly over-egging things there. I've used and seen the facepalm gesture used more like the doh! .. Carcharoth That's my word. I would think, that this gesture : http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/554/original/facepalm.jpg?1248715065 would be generally understandable across the world (so it had to be understandable without the StarTrack, without its contribution) At least myself, I would not know that this gesture is supposedly originating from StarTrack and I would expect it is just normal gesture, I would understand it normally (being in another continent and in community using different language from english). And I also believe, that both the possibilities (1 lifting up the palm to the face; 2 lowering ones face to the palm) might coexist alongside themselves, with just the meaning little bit shifted. I just think of girls I know, - blushing, just turning red for some awkward reason, lowering their heads in just reminiscence of the above gesture - the second case. So lowering ones head in facepalm is more like ones escape from my own embarrassment, while lifting rather the palm to ones tired head is more like escape from others in disbelief. That's how I would read the gesture intuitively. The template does not differentiate between those two. And I saw it being applied in both of the circumstances. Sometimes I felt it, to be surprisingly judgmental. I saw some users in good standing using it as shortcut for something, I would decipher as: Its so stupid/naive argument, that I am not going to answer any more then this. Please stop here Petr (a.k.a. Reo On) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
Like many others, I've seen the facepalm used to represent a fairly broad spectrum of emotions, both directed at one's own actions and that of others. It's certainly been around since well before Star Trek, since I remember it being used before that show was on TV, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if William Shatner brought it with him as part of his Canadian heritage; it's endemic here, and has been for generations. I've taken a look at a lot of the examples that were provided of uncivil use of the facepalm template. Careful backtracking of several of the discussions revealed that the template doesn't seem to be being used with newbie editors as frequently as was being put forward; in fact, it seemed to be used most frequently when dealing with editors to whom explanations of poilcy/guideline had already been given, sometimes by multiple users. One example in particular hit home to me because it was in response to a multi-project serial sockmaster on his fourth or fifth account, improving an article with his own personal version of history that conveniently also bolstered his financial prospects. So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be how to deal with editors who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and policies. It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to address this issue. Risker/Anne ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
-Original Message- From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l- boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker Sent: 04 October 2011 18:25 To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm? So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be how to deal with editors who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and policies. It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to address this issue. Risker/Anne But 'facepalming' them in (even legitimate) frustration at their evident obtuseness is, like calling someone a WP:DICK, unlikely to improve their behaviour, whilst it encourages people to use the same facepalm in situations where the recipient is a good faith editor, and the inference that they are being obtuse is unhelpful and uncivil/inflammatory. Anyway, templates are always poor substitutes for actual communication, particularly in situations where tempers are apt to fray, and miscommunications are more than likely. Scott ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
If ArbCom would be damaged by people opening [[WP:DICK]] labeling cases, it
certainly wouldn't be helped by people opening facepalming cases.
Be it namecalling or implication of rude gestures, these are both civil
issues and both need attention.
At the same time, I feel the {{facepalm}} template can be (as I often see)
used effectively without directing it at another individual, usually as in
oh I can't believe I just said/did that.
And re: the Star Trek stuff, I think the most credit we can give Star Trek
(if even this) is coining the phrase (if they in fact did). It's found
throughout common American culture predating Star Trek.
Bob
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com
wrote:
-Original Message-
From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-
boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Risker
Sent: 04 October 2011 18:25
To: English Wikipedia
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
So perhaps a better focus of discussion would be how to deal with
editors
who are unable to or unwilling to understand project guidelines and
policies. It seems that the primary use of this template is by editors
expressing frustration at the inability, despite their best efforts, to
address this issue.
Risker/Anne
But 'facepalming' them in (even legitimate) frustration at their evident
obtuseness is, like calling someone a WP:DICK, unlikely to improve their
behaviour, whilst it encourages people to use the same facepalm in
situations where the recipient is a good faith editor, and the inference
that they are being obtuse is unhelpful and uncivil/inflammatory.
Anyway, templates are always poor substitutes for actual communication,
particularly in situations where tempers are apt to fray, and
miscommunications are more than likely.
Scott
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
-Original Message- From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l- boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ray Saintonge Sent: 04 October 2011 21:08 To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm? On 10/04/11 3:51 AM, Tom Morris wrote: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself. Pedantry is no more communicative than the memes of pop culture. Ec To be pedantic, I think you mean verbosity. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Facepalm?
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:07 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote: On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:50 AM, Scott MacDonald wrote: On 04 October 2011 at 21:08, Ray Saintonge wrote: On 10/04/11 3:51 AM, Tom Morris wrote: On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:04, Scott MacDonald wrote: Unfortunately, I think this is what happens when kewl teenagers who like memes started (apparently) by star-trek, meet adults who value actual communication in the language of Shakespeare. Oh, please. I'd call you a flap-mouthed miscreant, but instead I shall risk accusations of incivility and just facepalm quietly to myself. Pedantry is no more communicative than the memes of pop culture. To be pedantic, I think you mean verbosity. What part of Ten foot pole, not touching. don't you understand. Would that work better? Did you all manage to miss the point that Tom wasn't being pedantic or verbose? He was being Shakespearean (responding to what Scott said about the language of Shakespeare), doing so with the words 'flap-mouthed' and 'miscreant'. Unless that is considered a form of pedantry? See here for some examples: http://www.squidoo.com/shakespearean-insults I feel an you are all idiots moment coming on (that's an in-joke). Or rather, you are all pribbling plume-plucked puttocks. No, I don't know what that means either, but (to use Scott's phrase) it sounds 'kewl'. I wonder if Shakespearean insults would work better than trout and facepalm templates. Probably not. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
