Re: [WikiEN-l] Roth is an elderly man googling
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: You might be justified in saying this if he was really told he wasn't credible. If he was told that he wasn't a reliable source in WP's terms, that is a different kettle of fish. How's he supposed to know the difference? Besides, once he is verified to be himself, he is a reliable source. The issue was that he was a primary source and the secondary sources had preference. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Roth is an elderly man googling
On 10 September 2012 17:04, Ken Arromdee arrom...@rahul.net wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: You might be justified in saying this if he was really told he wasn't credible. If he was told that he wasn't a reliable source in WP's terms, that is a different kettle of fish. How's he supposed to know the difference? Oh, I don't know, they keep saying he should get a Nobel Prize as a novelist, so perhaps his command of the English language is above average. There is a nuance. Besides, once he is verified to be himself, he is a reliable source. The issue was that he was a primary source and the secondary sources had preference. The issue appears to be something different. Roth's biographer wanted the existing secondary sources zapped from the article as simply worthless, and we couldn't accept that. Roth's unpublished view as funnelled through his biographer might have had to have waited until the biography was published, in which case we would have cited it without trouble. Via what appears to be an OTRS mail Roth was given what appears to be the wrong advice, phrased in terms of secondary sources. As WP:ABOUTSELFhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ABOUTSELF tells us, Roth simply had to get his view published; which he did. The caveat in the article by 20 August was actually enough to cast great doubt on the other story about his inspiration, at least for any attentive reader. It is traditional to hang all sorts of other considerations on these incidents, but from the point of view of getting the case study straight, it isn't that helpful. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Roth is an elderly man googling
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Charles Matthews wrote: Besides, once he is verified to be himself, he is a reliable source. The issue was that he was a primary source and the secondary sources had preference. The issue appears to be something different. Roth's biographer wanted the existing secondary sources zapped from the article as simply worthless, and we couldn't accept that. Roth's unpublished view as funnelled through his biographer might have had to have waited until the biography was published, in which case we would have cited it without trouble. Via what appears to be an OTRS mail Roth was given what appears to be the wrong advice, phrased in terms of secondary sources. Let me get this straight: He was given the wrong advice about secondary sources... and it's his fault? This is definitely Wikipedia's problem. Wikipedia's policy *as practiced* failed him, and failed us. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Only on WP is the victim a bully
On 10 September 2012 17:26, Matthew Jacobs sxeptoman...@gmail.com wrote: Only on WP. This kind of crap is why I've essentially given up on the site. The man wants an article on HIS OWN WORK to be accurate, and was frustrated by the apparently quite unhelpful people he met there. That's just plain ridiculous, but it's beyond absurd that he would then be called a bully for trying to get it fixed when no-one apparently seemed to interested in helping him. That is a very poor description of what went on here. Roth could have called out critics who made misleading statements about his work quite some time ago. He got a direct reply from us. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Only on WP is the victim a bully
on 9/10/12 12:26 PM, Matthew Jacobs at sxeptoman...@gmail.com wrote: skip I'm really, really sick of administrators acting like complete jerks, and not only failing to get admonished in any significant way for it, but people making up excuses for their dickish behavior, and then attacking the victim as a bully. skip Sxeptomaniac This is what happens when give a great deal of power over others to persons who, in their own lives, feel they have little or none. I have been asking for a more mature, objective oversite of this situation for several years now, but have gotten no support with this. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
I can't imagine a site more accessible and better organized than Wikipedia for someone seeking porn. They're quite correct. Bob On 9/10/2012 1:51 PM, Steve Summit wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/10/wikipedia-slow-to-filter-graphic-imagery-from-site/ Wikipedia has turned down a more or less free offer for software that would keep minors and unsuspecting web surfers from stumbling upon graphic images of sex organs, acts and emissions, FoxNews.com has learned -- sexually explicit images that remain far and away the most popular items on the company's servers. Funny, I didn't realize we (or commons, which is what they're really talking about) were a porn site, but I guess they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true... ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Bob the Wikipedian bobthewikiped...@gmail.com wrote: I can't imagine a site more accessible and better organized than Wikipedia for someone seeking porn. They're quite correct. Bob Really? Wikipedia is the best porn site you can imagine? Welcome to the Internets, Bob, take a look around. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say best. Having never browsed around specifically for porn, and Wikipedia having been the only site that's put porn in my face without my asking for it, on top of the fact Wikipedia has an excellent categorization system and is allowed even in the workplace and schools, and is a globally-famous site, this qualifies my statement. On 9/10/2012 2:19 PM, Nathan wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Bob the Wikipedian bobthewikiped...@gmail.com wrote: I can't imagine a site more accessible and better organized than Wikipedia for someone seeking porn. They're quite correct. Bob Really? Wikipedia is the best porn site you can imagine? Welcome to the Internets, Bob, take a look around. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
In reality, many businesses and individuals have filtering in place to prevent access to pages that include certain keywords. I've sometimes been stymied when following a legitimate link when I'm on a computer that has some form of net nanny software. As it turns out, it seems that software isn't all that great and can significantly affect performance. And certainly we don't know much about what expectations they had if WMF projects accepted the free offer. Risker On 10 September 2012 16:08, Bob the Wikipedian bobthewikiped...@gmail.comwrote: Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say best. Having never browsed around specifically for porn, and Wikipedia having been the only site that's put porn in my face without my asking for it, on top of the fact Wikipedia has an excellent categorization system and is allowed even in the workplace and schools, and is a globally-famous site, this qualifies my statement. On 9/10/2012 2:19 PM, Nathan wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Bob the Wikipedian bobthewikiped...@gmail.com wrote: I can't imagine a site more accessible and better organized than Wikipedia for someone seeking porn. They're quite correct. Bob Really? Wikipedia is the best porn site you can imagine? Welcome to the Internets, Bob, take a look around. __**_ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikien-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l __**_ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikien-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Bob the Wikipedian bobthewikiped...@gmail.com wrote: Re-read what I wrote. I didn't say best. Having never browsed around specifically for porn, and Wikipedia having been the only site that's put porn in my face without my asking for it, on top of the fact Wikipedia has an excellent categorization system and is allowed even in the workplace and schools, and is a globally-famous site, this qualifies my statement. I've re-read both your posts. In the second, quoted above, it sounds like you are saying that for someone who isn't looking for porn, Wikipedia is an easy place to find it. But in your original message, you said Wikipedia was ideal ...for someone seeking porn. But of course that isn't true. People who are seeking porn will, in all likelihood, find actual porn. Wikipedia, contra your assertion, is certainly not the easiest place to find it. Blocked sites are hardly an impediment - Google Image search isn't blocked anywhere Google itself is accessible, and any sexual search term will return a thousand thousand images with nothing for a filtering program to block. By the same token, the fame (or lack) of a particular site is irrelevant. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
It's telling that Fox News are using the Simple English Wikipedia. Also someone should let them know you only need to type in one of the search boxes to do a search, not both. NetSpark's technology was used in 2010 with Israeli technology company Cellcom to filter the mobile web, creating a Kosher Internet for Jewish users. sarcasmThese sound like exactly the people we need to be working with./sarcasm Pete / the wub On 10 September 2012 19:51, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/10/wikipedia-slow-to-filter-graphic-imagery-from-site/ Wikipedia has turned down a more or less free offer for software that would keep minors and unsuspecting web surfers from stumbling upon graphic images of sex organs, acts and emissions, FoxNews.com has learned -- sexually explicit images that remain far and away the most popular items on the company's servers. Funny, I didn't realize we (or commons, which is what they're really talking about) were a porn site, but I guess they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true... ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
On Sep 10, 2012 9:20 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: In reality, many businesses and individuals have filtering in place to prevent access to pages that include certain keywords. I've sometimes been stymied when following a legitimate link when I'm on a computer that has some form of net nanny software. Funny you should say that, I wasn't able to access Wiktionary at work today because it was suspicious. No idea what that was about... ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
Wikipedia Co-Founder Larry Sanger has launched a campaign against the online encyclopedia for content filters to be put in place. Part of being a reference work. There are aspects of reality that are offensive or disturbing. I think we've made considerable progress on this matter in terms of removing or offering tools to prevent surprising people with gratuitous salacious material, but a refractory remnant of simple fact will always remain a part of Wikipedia. Some of it very important information even for children. Fred On 10 September 2012 19:51, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/10/wikipedia-slow-to-filter-graphic-imagery-from-site/ Wikipedia has turned down a more or less free offer for software that would keep minors and unsuspecting web surfers from stumbling upon graphic images of sex organs, acts and emissions, FoxNews.com has learned -- sexually explicit images that remain far and away the most popular items on the company's servers. Funny, I didn't realize we (or commons, which is what they're really talking about) were a porn site, but I guess they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true... ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
On Sep 10, 2012 9:20 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: In reality, many businesses and individuals have filtering in place to prevent access to pages that include certain keywords. I've sometimes been stymied when following a legitimate link when I'm on a computer that has some form of net nanny software. Funny you should say that, I wasn't able to access Wiktionary at work today because it was suspicious. No idea what that was about... When I first set up Wikinfo on ibiblio at the University of North Carolina the page socialism would not load because they had a net filter in place which blocked that word. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Privilege
The exercise of privilege is not usually called bullying, nor, when its prerogatives are denied are its holders called victims. Wikipedia does accord privilege to authority but only published authority. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Fox News says we have a rampant porn problem
There are several issues here. One is that we are an open source site, “The idea we discussed was that NetSpark would either donate or heavily discount the cost of the filter for Wikipedia. Surely Sanger knows us well enough to know not to suggest that we ditch open source and work with a software supplier who boasts of proprietary algorithms on their website? Secondly The company says its technology is a “learning engine” that can analyze the components of an image precisely enough to determine the difference between a pornographic image and an advertorial image that has models wearing swimwear or lingerie. Which might be OK if we were a monocultural site that deemed topless women not OK and bikini clad women OK. But we are aiming for a global audience with a series of products that include an encyclopaedia in some of whose pages it is entirely appropriate to show images of women wearing less than a bikini. Thirdly if we do introduce a filter it needs to work across multiple cultures - including for people who don't want to see models wearing swimwear or lingerie. Also isn't it a bit rich for Fox News to be talking about porn? Afterall as a Murdoch company they are in the same corporate stable as page3.com. I'm sufficiently sold on the idea of an image filter to have drafted one of the options myself, but it really doesn't help the case to have people suggesting systems that are so incompatible with our values. If Sanger really wanted us to introduce an image filter he'd be far more effective if he lobbied for solutions that are compatible with our ethos and values. Regards WSC On 10 September 2012 19:51, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/09/10/wikipedia-slow-to-filter-graphic-imagery-from-site/ Wikipedia has turned down a more or less free offer for software that would keep minors and unsuspecting web surfers from stumbling upon graphic images of sex organs, acts and emissions, FoxNews.com has learned -- sexually explicit images that remain far and away the most popular items on the company's servers. Funny, I didn't realize we (or commons, which is what they're really talking about) were a porn site, but I guess they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true... ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
