Re: [WSG] flash satay firefox bug
On Mon, 2005-05-23 at 11:38, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Check out the example page in firefox. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/76/ I can tab fine through that page. Using FF v1.0.4 under Linux. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash satay firefox bug
On 23 May 2005, at 10:38 am, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: A small heads-up to alert those (myself included) using the flash satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ of an annoying variation of an old bug in firefox: [...] Check out the example page in firefox. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/76/ I can't even tab past the first (embeded) movie using the latest nightly builds of Firefox on OS X. Do you know if there is any bug filed for this in Bugzilla ? Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] label tag wrapping around checkbox
Peter Ottery wrote: if you had part of a form that had a checkbox that when checked enabled a file upload input, how would you mark that up? G'day Pete I think your wrapping of the labels is appropriate, but I'd probably include a fieldset to surround the lot - indicating their relationship to each other clearly fieldset legendAdd a thumbnail image?/legend label for=addthumb input name=addthumb id=addthumb type=checkbox value=1 / Add thumbnail image: /label label for=path span class=hideawaypath to image:/span input id=path name=path type=file disabled / /label /fieldset Or something like that... Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Nothing 'wrong' with that I don't think. I think that the street address should probably only be contained within a single dd, though (since it is a single entity). Lines could be broken with br / as appropraite. I think it would then be appropraite to wrap the inner text of each dd with an address too, so you have: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Placebr / ddCamelfordbr / ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl The WHATWG Web Apps draft has an expanded definition for address which seems to be semantically identical to the existing HTML4 spec, but provides a more verbose explaination: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address On 5/23/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Apologies - I hit send too soon and the example was wrong. I meant that you could end up with this: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt ddaddress20 Market Placebr / Camelfordbr / Cornwallbr / PL32 9PD/address/dd ddTEL address01840 212938/address/dd ddFAX address01840 213596/address/dd /dl I might also be inclined to put semantic class names on each of those addresses (such as street-address, telephone, fax. In the future, this would allow you to use CSS to generate the Tel and Fax prefixes for you, or insert an appropriate icon graphic etc. Ben On 5/23/05, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing 'wrong' with that I don't think. I think that the street address should probably only be contained within a single dd, though (since it is a single entity). Lines could be broken with br / as appropraite. I think it would then be appropraite to wrap the inner text of each dd with an address too, so you have: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Placebr / ddCamelfordbr / ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl The WHATWG Web Apps draft has an expanded definition for address which seems to be semantically identical to the existing HTML4 spec, but provides a more verbose explaination: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address On 5/23/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On Sun, 22 May 2005 22:30:53 +0100, Ben Ward wrote: Lea - I think the problematic part of the address / element as described in Geoff's link is the part reading authorship for the current document. Yes, *after* I posted (typical) I went and had a further look around. The HTML4 specs are more restrictive. I think the wording is a little un-useful and requires 'creative interpretation' to think that an actual street address can go in there at all, but I'm known for that anyway ;) Its... interesting... that the spec defines ADDRESS as an inline item. I would have thought its internal structure perfect for structure such as a Definition List. Lea ~ announcement for June Brisbane meeting observed in the wild! Let us know if you didn't get a copy and were expecting one! -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
Hello All - I have the opportunity to hire two people in the next few weeks to help me with my one-man-band web development business. Problem is, these two know only the most basic aspects of HTML and don't know anything about CSS or web standards. Problem also is that I can't afford to hire anyone currently proficient at these two disciplines. Learning CSS was a painfully slow process for me (as I never had time to concentrate on it, or standards coding, because I was always doing everything else as well). To this day, I still wouldn't consider myselfanywhere near expert level: The moans and groans and "geez, why did that happen" is pretty much behind me, but I'm no expert. Since I'll still be too busy to sit with them for hours at a time teaching them the little that I know, I'd like to have some opinions on the best way to bring two absolute newbies up to CSS/Web Standards proficiency without me having to be at their elbow every step along the way. By proficiency, I mean that I can give them a Photoshop design comp, and they will be able to create anXHTMLcode foundation as well as a CSS style and positioningspec without too much whining and head-scratching. My plan is toget them completely compeletely trainedin these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. All comments welcome and greatly appreciated. Cole
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
On 5/23/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the opportunity to hire two people in the next few weeks to help me with my one-man-band web development business. Problem is, these two know only the most basic aspects of HTML and don't know anything about CSS or web standards. I would recommend Zeldman's Designing with web standards as a good primer, on both how to approach web standards and why. My copy has been around our office several times now and is looking rather dog-eared and annotated. I'm still not allowed to take it home! K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: *** Spam *** [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
ask them to purchase eric meyer's books: eric meyer on css more eric meyer on css cascading style sheets: a definitive guide or you could purchase the books for your library. hth, dwain -- Dwain Alford http://www.alforddesigngroup.com web hosting: http://www.1and1.com/?k_id=7653741 http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliatesamp;id=0amp;t=1/ The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005 Tested on: 5/23/2005 7:03:48 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
On Monday, May 23, 2005 7:35 AM, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: By proficiency, I mean that I can give them a Photoshop design comp, and they will be able to create an XHTML code foundation as well as a CSS style and positioning spec without too much whining and head-scratching. My plan is to get them completely compeletely trained in these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. Hi Cole, Just a few quick points re: getting these people up to speed. Books and blogs are the order of the day. You might have a suggested reading list for them, including as Kay suggested, Zeldman's Designing With Web Standards. I would also suggest Dan Cederholm's Web Standards Solutions. While that book may seem to be too advanced at the beginning, it digs deep into code and samples. Like Dan's SimpleQuiz series from his blog, there is a lot more to semantics and code then meets the eye, and that can be enlightening for developers to see. Add into the mix a healthy dose of blogs so that they can keep up with and find the latest and greatest, even if it is only 4 or 5 blogs. Web Design World 2004 was held in Boston in December 2004. Molly Holzchlag and Ethan Marcotte did a presentation that is archived online. In that presentation, Ethan deconstructs the conversion of one of Harvard University's web sites from tables to CSS layout. While it doesn't demonstrate every aspect of the code, nor converting a PhotoShop comp into a CSS based layout, I find that it does a great job of demonstrating the ethos and principles behind modern web development. The presentation is linked from here: http://www.ftponline.com/reports/wdwboston/2004/holzschlag/ When you click on the link for the presentation, instead of http: it lists mms: I'm not exactly sure what that protocol is, but clicking the link brings up a message about launching an external app. I just changed it to http: instead of mms: and it worked fine. Finally, re: my plan is to get them completely trained in these areas before letting them dive into any real project development In my opinion, this isn't really a good idea. Here are some things to consider (this is mostly my opinion, based on my experience both as a developer and instructor): 1. if they only know basic HTML, getting them up to speed will take a while. If they are doing nothing but training, they'll quite possibly get bored, and web standards will be to blame. 2. learning these new techniques are best done with real projects. Contrived examples are usually ok, but work on a real project is much more effective for learning as they are doing something real and will have different motivation for getting the job done. 3. From a learning perspective, you have to start small. Get them working on a small component of a real site. Something like a nav bar, or a footer using only semntically sound HTML and CSS would be useful. Get them to do it on its own, and then you show them how that fits into the big picture of the rest of the site (which you will presumably be doing). 4. For those small pieces, point them in the right direction - get them started by showing them some examples, and see if they can make something work using the examples as a model. You can then work with them to deconstruct their attempts and really help them understand what is going on. 5. You have to keep challenging them - they need to move from creating a nav bar with HTML and CSS to being responsible for the entire header, to header plus footer plus secondary nav perhaps, and then responsible for all an entire site. OK, I could write forever about this, but that is more than enough to digest for now... Hope this is helpful to you... Best regards, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: 613.599.9784; toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Web Accessibility: http://www.wats.ca Personal: http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
Hi Cole, Sounds like you want to train someone in the (not easy) transition to standards by having to do very little. If you can find a way to get them proficient in the basics, have a thorough knowledge of hacks and browser behaviour and be able to produce original designs (sort of like zen garden stuff) in a very short space of time, I expect that several on this list would be very interested! (me first, please:-) :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Hi Bob, Bert Doorn recently suggested to me that I try: object data=whatever.swf width=x height=y type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=movie value=whatever.swf / param name=quality value=high / pNo Flash?/p /object and so far I haven't found anywhere that it doesn't work! I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
I notice that I forgot to include a link to the page with the problem. My apologies - here it is: http://www.theonlineworks.com/test/dhha/home4.html Bob, I didn't put in the code you suggested yet. I did try it locally. IE6 STUBBORNLY refuses to show the Flash. The above link will take you to the page with code for the container movie which calls the flash. Works great in FF and Opera. IE6 never seems to load it. It goes and goes and goes, but never gets there. I got the same result testing your solution locally. I'm determined to find a good, standards compliant way to serve Flash clips in IE as well as other browsers, and I know some of the population who will view the site may have Javascript turned off, so that's the reason for wanting a Javascript-less solution. hi Leslie, Bert Doorn recently suggested to me that I try: object data=whatever.swf width=x height=y type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=movie value=whatever.swf / param name=quality value=high / pNo Flash?/p /object and so far I haven't found anywhere that it doesn't work! I've tested it in IE5.5, 6, FF1, Opera8 and with Flash file sizes up to 90K. I haven't found any evidence of streaming problems at all. I haven't reported back to Bert about this, as I was going to test on bigger Flash files first, so if you're reading this Bert, Thank you! Incidentally, it validates as xhtml 1.0 strict! This seems like a revelation to me, and I'd be interested if anyone else knows of any problems? Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: My plan is to get them completely compeletely trained in these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. A few thoughts about basic learning: No books and training-methods can beat the time-factor. The learning-curve is steep, and no one can focus well on one subject for more than a few hours (3-5h). Anything more than that is either routine (which they don't have), or a complete waste of time. Make room for plenty of positive distractions/breaks (walk in the park or whatever). Let them be in control of how they use their working-hours, while you stay in control of the overall working-day. Organize well, but leave the details out. They will probably not be able to stay better organized than you are, so be what you preach. Creating PhotoShop-lookalikes is not very useful as a first stage. Better give them some real content, and make them organize it for the web -- semantically. Design should come later, so even CSS may be left out (more or less) in the beginning. If it doesn't work without CSS, then CSS won't help much anyway. Keep them away from anything that isn't strictly standard-based (x)html and CSS for a while. Let them work and test against real browsers and the validators, and make sure IE/win doesn't get in the way with its broken standard-support and tag-soup recovery. Good luck -- you're gonna need it :-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Leslie Riggs wrote: http://www.theonlineworks.com/test/dhha/home4.html Bob, I didn't put in the code you suggested yet. I did try it locally. IE6 STUBBORNLY refuses to show the Flash. You have an error in your markup. Try changing param name=top_dhha value=flash/cont_dhha.swf?path=flash/top_dhha.swf / to param name=movie value=flash/cont_dhha.swf?path=flash/top_dhha.swf / -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Ian Fenn wrote: I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 Those are known issues of the Satay method, some of which are even outlined in the original ALA article www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Thanks heaps, Patrick. That did the trick. I'd completely overlooked that the param name had to be movie. It validates! It WORKS! Thank you again. Leslie Riggs You have an error in your markup. Try changing param name=top_dhha value=flash/cont_dhha.swf?path=flash/top_dhha.swf / to param name=movie value=flash/cont_dhha.swf?path=flash/top_dhha.swf / ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
I'm confused as to what is happening here. Will someone please try the opening page of www.kernowimages.co.uk , confirm that it works in IE, and save my sanity? For me it works in WinXP running IE5.5 and 6, as well as FF1, Opera 8. If you have time, you could check the 'credits' page as well. That works too. (well, it does here :-) So what is happening? Duh. Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk - Original Message - From: Ian Fenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue Hi Bob, Bert Doorn recently suggested to me that I try: object data=whatever.swf width=x height=y type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=movie value=whatever.swf / param name=quality value=high / pNo Flash?/p /object and so far I haven't found anywhere that it doesn't work! I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Works for me using IE6/W2K Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Hi all, Personally, I would never use Flash anywhere on a website, but unfortunately I have a costumer who forces me to. I'm recoding a site that was originally made with Frontpage (don't worry, not a single piece of that code is left, and it's all valid XHTML Strict) and the original designer made a Flash-intro for it. The owner of the site wants to keep the intro, but being a proper designer, I obviously have to make the site available to people who don't use Flash. So is there some way I can test if people have Flash installed or not? Or do you have some other suggestion? Personally, I use GPLFlash, and it plays fine with that, so that's not a problem. Kristian Rasmussen Viborg (Denmark) -- Free Software Foundation associate member #3080 Protect your freedom by joining: http://member.fsf.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Since you helped me, I'll help you. For just a split second, I see a broken image icon in the upper left corner of the area with the Flash (using WinXP Pro SP2 with IE6 on a cable connection), then the Flash loads fine. Same with the credits page. I think the first time someone loads this, that's what happens, but it's only a split second, then the flash loads. Probably the file takes just that wee extra time to load and IE likes to wait till it's all there before it runs the Flash. Leslie Riggs I'm confused as to what is happening here. Will someone please try the opening page of www.kernowimages.co.uk , confirm that it works in IE, and save my sanity? For me it works in WinXP running IE5.5 and 6, as well as FF1, Opera 8. If you have time, you could check the 'credits' page as well. That works too. (well, it does here :-) So what is happening? Duh. Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Patrick wrote: I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 Those are known issues of the Satay method, some of which are even outlined in the original ALA article www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ I know - I just thought running the given example through browser.com might help someone. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Kristian wrote: So is there some way I can test if people have Flash installed or not? Or do you have some other suggestion? On a recent project I tested for the existence of Flash using some publicly-available JavaScript. I then served up an image if Flash wasn't installed. The noscript alternative was also the image. It was the only way I could seem to serve something sensible to all browsers. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Ian Fenn wrote: On a recent project I tested for the existence of Flash using some publicly-available JavaScript. I then served up an image if Flash wasn't installed. The noscript alternative was also the image. It was the only way I could seem to serve something sensible to all browsers. Out of interest: why not simply provide the alternative content inside the OBJECT element, as per specification? If the OBJECT itself can't be displayed (e.g. Flash is not installed), then the alternative is displayed...all without getting any scripting involved. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Different styles for different browsers?
I'm a CSS novice and have a terrible time getting my Web site to display consistently across all platforms, but there's only one platform that consistently displays the site radically differently from all the others-- Microsoft Internet Explorer (shocking, I know, but true). Is it possible to create a separate style sheet with different style rules for individual browsersto enable it to display a sitein a uniform manner? Thanks, g. "These are the days of miracle and wonder." --Paul Simon ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Forms question
When validating a page containing a form for XHTML 1.0 Transitional, I get the following message regarding a textarea: required attribute cols not specified Why can't we specify a percentage width for the textarea in the CSS instead? It works, but it doesn't validate without the cols attribute being defined, and if I'm going to define cols then there's no purpose for the width in the CSS, is there? Does this have to do with being able to enter text beyond that CSS-defined width? Thanks for your enlightenment... Leslie Riggs ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
On May 23, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Keep them away from anything that isn't strictly standard-based (x)html and CSS for a while. Let them work and test against real browsers and the validators, and make sure IE/win doesn't get in the way with its broken standard-support and tag-soup recovery. Stick them on Firefox with these two extensions: HTML VALIDATOR (based on Tidy) http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/ Validates as they view their pages, so they should always see the beautiful green checkmark that says the HTML is valid. It has some issues, but hopefully it will train them to cringe when they miss that closing slash on their link tag. WEB DEVELOPER http://chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/ Web Developer is a toolbar with wonderful, wonderful abilities for people learning CSS. Chief among them is the Outline menu and the ability to switch styles off with a keystroke, IMO. The Tools menu also trains them to validate, validate, validate. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Different styles for different browsers?
Gregory Alan Gross wrote: Is it possible to create a separate style sheet with different style rules for individual browsers to enable it to display a site in a uniform manner? See: http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html ... for the best way to feed IE/win separate stylesheet(s), through conditional comments. See: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02_01.html#item2 ... for practical use of conditional comments to link stylesheets. Gecko, Opera, Safari and other standard-compliant browsers, should normally not be in need of separate stylesheets and rules, as most differences can, and should, be worked out by feeding them the same set of styles. Making everything work across browser-land is of course not always easy, but you should try -- even if you have to spoon-feed all these browsers with minor and seemingly unnecessary details and make alterations to a design for them. Just remember: pixel-perfection across browser-land is not/should not be important. It just has to come out perfect in all of them - separately. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
I'm with Ben on this one. I learned loads after installing Firefox and adding the validator and developer toolbar. I went to different sites and ran them through the validator, saw the errors (or not) and learned about how to and how not to code to standards. Leslie Riggs Keep them away from anything that isn't strictly standard-based (x)html and CSS for a while. Let them work and test against real browsers and the validators, and make sure IE/win doesn't get in the way with its broken standard-support and tag-soup recovery. Stick them on Firefox with these two extensions: HTML VALIDATOR (based on Tidy) http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/ Validates as they view their pages, so they should always see the beautiful green checkmark that says the HTML is valid. It has some issues, but hopefully it will train them to cringe when they miss that closing slash on their link tag. WEB DEVELOPER http://chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/ Web Developer is a toolbar with wonderful, wonderful abilities for people learning CSS. Chief among them is the Outline menu and the ability to switch styles off with a keystroke, IMO. The Tools menu also trains them to validate, validate, validate. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
last week i poted a question on this topic asking list members what they thought of the variousmethods of embedding flash below is a link to flash object so far it has never failed any test posed to it http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ an example site which i found to be using the flashObject method http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/ one pf the highest profile sites i know i am extremeley interested to hear opinions on it. whilst on the subject of satay i found it far to complex, and the entire has to load so i hear - or am i wrong SS Ian Fenn wrote: Patrick wrote: I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem to have issues. See: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026 Those are known issues of the Satay method, some of which are even outlined in the original ALA article www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ I know - I just thought running the given example through browser.com might help someone. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash satay firefox bug
What if the tab index is set in the swf? do we still have this problem? A small heads-up to alert those (myself included) using the flash satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ of an annoying variation of an old bug in firefox: The flash satay method has become a widely used technique for embedding flash into valid XHTML documents. However, even current builds of Mozilla Firefox (at the time of writing, version 1.0.4) seem to have a problem which can have a serious impact on accessibility: flash content embedded this way swallows the tab focus, making it impossible to proceed beyond the movie when using keyboard navigation. Of course, the core issue of embedded flash stealing focus is not new, but the fact that satay triggers this in Firefox - when Gecko based browsers have, up to now, been known to simply skip flash movies when tabbing, which was another issue in itself - is a novel and annoying variation, particularly when flash is used purely for decorative effects rather than functional page elements. Check out the example page in firefox. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/76/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Sam wrote: below is a link to flash object so far it has never failed any test posed to it http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best -practices/ I tried implementing this method last week and whilst the examples worked fine on my desktop, I couldn't get the code to work from my server. Unfortunately I didn't have time to carry out a thorough investigation as to why. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
I wrote: I tried implementing this method last week and whilst the examples worked fine on my desktop, I couldn't get the code to work from my server. I forgot to add that it crashed with a JavaScript error - object expected. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue
Ian Fenn wrote: I wrote: I tried implementing this method last week and whilst the examples worked fine on my desktop, I couldn't get the code to work from my server. I forgot to add that it crashed with a _javascript_ error - object expected. All the best, -- Ian Fenn Chopstix Media http://www.chopstixmedia.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** what browser were you using? it has a wide coverage of the various browsers evrey time it works when I have tested it.
Re: [WSG] Forms question
cols is used to define the number of characters on a line. That is percent is giving you an error. The default for this in html 4.01 is 80. I believe in xhtml it is required to be defined. Parker Unfolded WebDesign http://webdesign.parkertorrence.com On 5/23/05, Leslie Riggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When validating a page containing a form for XHTML 1.0 Transitional, I get the following message regarding a textarea: required attribute cols not specified Why can't we specify a percentage width for the textarea in the CSS instead? It works, but it doesn't validate without the cols attribute being defined, and if I'm going to define cols then there's no purpose for the width in the CSS, is there? Does this have to do with being able to enter text beyond that CSS-defined width? Thanks for your enlightenment... Leslie Riggs ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
I keep a list of online tutorials at my msn group site, http://groups.msn.com/htmlwebdesigndreamers/ and try to keep it as up to date as possible. You will see "CSS Tutorials in the lefthand nav bar of the group. There you will find tuts and articles from beginners to advance that I've scoped the 'net for. I like Ben's idea too, and will try that for myself. I wonder if a person that only has html knowledge will be able to learn CSS using thismethod alone though. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin - x7mSent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:35 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards Hello All - I have the opportunity to hire two people in the next few weeks to help me with my one-man-band web development business. Problem is, these two know only the most basic aspects of HTML and don't know anything about CSS or web standards. Problem also is that I can't afford to hire anyone currently proficient at these two disciplines. Learning CSS was a painfully slow process for me (as I never had time to concentrate on it, or standards coding, because I was always doing everything else as well). To this day, I still wouldn't consider myselfanywhere near expert level: The moans and groans and "geez, why did that happen" is pretty much behind me, but I'm no expert. Since I'll still be too busy to sit with them for hours at a time teaching them the little that I know, I'd like to have some opinions on the best way to bring two absolute newbies up to CSS/Web Standards proficiency without me having to be at their elbow every step along the way. By proficiency, I mean that I can give them a Photoshop design comp, and they will be able to create anXHTMLcode foundation as well as a CSS style and positioningspec without too much whining and head-scratching. My plan is toget them completely compeletely trainedin these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. All comments welcome and greatly appreciated. Cole
Re: [WSG] Forms question
I'm using XHTML 1.0 Transitional. I don't have a percentage defined in the markup. It's defined in the CSS as width: 65% and I left the cols attribute unspecified. What I want to understand is why is cols required by the W3C standard, if the width can be defined in CSS? Is there a specific purpose to that, that can't be served by the width attribute in CSS? The reason I'm questioning this is when you have a layout with a form inside a container with a percentage width defined in CSS, but you have cols hard coded in the markup, couldn't that create a problem with the way a UA renders a page, particularly when cols is effectively wider than the containing area on a page? For example, say I've got a form with a textarea, cols at 80. I have a container for that form that is set to 60% width (in the CSS). Now, if I have a small screen, the container will take up 75% of the screen width...could cols, set at 80, break that layout or will it still render acceptably? I am just respectfully asking for help in understanding why cols is required by the W3C standard if a width attribute could be set in CSS for textarea. Thanks, Leslie Riggs cols is used to define the number of characters on a line. That is percent is giving you an error. The default for this in html 4.01 is 80. I believe in xhtml it is required to be defined. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS Dropdown menu
For people interested in à la suckerfish menus, this one now allows tabbing navigation in MSIE too: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forms question
Leslie Riggs wrote: What I want to understand is why is cols required by the W3C standard, if the width can be defined in CSS? The way I find it easiest to explain is to think about what happens if CSS was to be disabled in the browser, or the browser was incapable of processing CSS (take Lynx, for example). If the cols are not defined in the markup then what is the browser supposed to show? Cheers Peter -- Peter Asquith http://www.wasabicube.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best way to train someone in css and web standards
Hi, I have the opportunity to hire two people in the next few weeks to help me with my one-man-band web development business. Problem is, these two know only the most basic aspects of HTML and don't know anything about CSS or web standards. Problem also is that I can't afford to hire anyone currently proficient at these two disciplines. Learning CSS was a painfully slow process for me (as I never had time to concentrate on it, or standards coding, because I was always doing everything else as well). To this day, I still wouldn't consider myself anywhere near expert level: The moans and groans and "geez, why did that happen" is pretty much behind me, but I'm no expert. Since I'll still be too busy to sit with them for hours at a time teaching them the little that I know, I'd like to have some opinions on the best way to bring two absolute newbies up to CSS/Web Standards proficiency without me having to be at their elbow every step along the way. By proficiency, I mean that I can give them a Photoshop design comp, and they will be able to create an XHTML code foundation as well as a CSS style and positioning spec without too much whining and head-scratching. My plan is to get them completely compeletely trained in these areas before letting them dive into any real project development. All comments welcome and greatly appreciated.Two things come to mind. If you are in Australia, keep an eye on this list for an announcement soon about standards development workshops by the people who bring you Web Essentials (including the founders of WSG). Keep July clear if you are interested people :-) Also, at the risk of shilling, check out these courses, that are very highly regarded, have been done by thousands of people around the world, and were developed in Australia by people who have been involved with Web Standards since the very beginning(oh yeah, that includes me)http://westciv.com/courses/index.htmlWe also have a lot of very useful free training resources too,http://westciv.com/style_master/house/index.htmlthanksjohn John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher
Re: [WSG] Forms question
Isn't the default 80 columns? Leslie Riggs What I want to understand is why is cols required by the W3C standard, if the width can be defined in CSS? The way I find it easiest to explain is to think about what happens if CSS was to be disabled in the browser, or the browser was incapable of processing CSS (take Lynx, for example). If the cols are not defined in the markup then what is the browser supposed to show? Cheers Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forms question
Leslie Riggs wrote: Isn't the default 80 columns? From the DTD, my understanding is that cols is a required attribute but no default value is specified (see http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd). It could be that the defaults you refer to are browser defaults. Cheers Peter -- Peter Asquith http://www.wasabicube.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Dropdown menu
on your site is says What's Bad We're using CSS for another purpose than presentation. why is it that bad? On 5/24/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For people interested in à la suckerfish menus, this one now allows tabbing navigation in MSIE too: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Dropdown menu
Frederic Fery wrote: on your site is says What's Bad We're using CSS for another purpose than presentation. why is it that bad? It is said that flyout and dropdown menus belong to the behavior layer and that CSS should not be used to accomplish such things. Also, because this technique relies on CSS *and* Scripting it overlaps 2 layers; and that's supposed to be bad too ;-) IMO, there is even a third problem, and it is about usability: there is no delay that can be set regarding the collapsing of the nested lists. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
