Re: [WSG] Webpatterns and WebSemantics
On 11/18/05, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very interested in people's thoughts,Interesting and challenging idea John. I'll be keeping a keen eye on the site as it develops. We've tried for years to organise a similar ideal within our own crew here and while I'm sure a pattern exists, I think its come out of chaos more than collaboration. ;) Cheers Chris B
Re: [WSG] disabling autocomplete and validation
I'd have to agree with Patrick. Poking into the DOM and adding the autocomplete attribute is clean enough for the sort of thing you are doing. I look at it this way.. the markup is what the web server sends. The DOM gives us hooks into the document once its loaded into the browsers memory. I'm sure a lot of Kiosk extensions for Firefox do this sort of thing, does that make our markup any less valid? CB
Re: [WSG] Current practices in Australian web development
Thanks John, Really appreciate your work on this. Cheers Chris B
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
We tested DW8 recently, Contribute 3 also uses this latest renderer. Its CSS support is a big improvement over the previous version. It still has a way to go yet. We picked up some issues with negative margins and other issues regarding floats. But if you keep these little issues in mind when building a site you can actually get pretty good results in Contribute. ( not as many notcieable rendering problems ) and reduce the number of why does it look all weird in Contribute phone calls. Cheers CB
[WSG] Criticisms of Internet Explorer
G'day Came across this the other day; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Internet_Explorer Cheers Chris
Re: [WSG] Fallback elements inside Object - should they be available in the DOM?
Form input elements that are - alternative - content within an object should not be submitted to the webserver via a post or get, I agree with Vlad, its a bug. However whether the element is available from the DOM is another question. Once the document strcuture has been passed by the browser and the DOM nodes created, I can't see why it shouldn't be available within the DOM. As it _is_ actually part of the document, its just hidden by the browser in most cases. Going back to the issue of submitted form elements, if the browser is smart enough to hide the alternative content it should be smart enough to disable alternative input elements too. I'm sure its been discussed on the mozilla dev list before. The question really comes back to how the browser passes the document structure and sets up its DOM nodes, IE's parser is probably intrsructed to skip over these elements and ignore them completely, while Firefox just chucks the whole document into the DOM regardless. Regards Chris On 9/21/05, XStandard Vlad Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Patrick,Interesting... I think you found a bug in Firefox. The IE approach seems to be correct. Content inside the object tag is an alternative to the object tag, not an addition to it. Using your example, in IE, the following construct will submit abc to the server:object name=abc ...textarea name=def/textarea/objectIn FF 1.5, both abc and def will be submitted to the server. In an ideal scenario, you would want to have this construct:object name=abc ...textarea name=abc/textarea/objectPatrick, this bug should be reported to Mozilla. If you are going to report it, can you please CC me on it in Bugzilla. Regards,-Vladhttp://xstandard.com Original Message From: Patrick LaukeDate: 9/20/2005 11:37 AM Possibly a bizarre question, but: currently working on integrating XStandard http://xstandard.com in a form, but trying to make it behave more reasonably when the plugin is not installed and when _javascript_ is off. What I discovered is a fundamental difference between IE and Firefox (not tested other browsers at this stage). Assuming we have the simplified code object textarea/textarea object If the plugin is not available, the textarea is used. Fine, no worries there. However, when the plugin IS available, IE seems to completely expunge the textarea from the DOM, while Firefox seems to remove it from the visual display, but still lets you manipulate it via _javascript_. (some may have gathered already, I was hoping to stuff the value of the plugin into the existing textarea's value property) A possibly academic question: which approach is right? Should the browser not make the fallback elements inside the object available? I'm coding around the issue, but I'd be curious what people think... __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Fluid, simple, clean, valid, green yet warm, big fonts ( like big hair ) Nice work Andy. I like it.
Re: [WSG] The Big Lie about CSS
On 9/19/05, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on Montag, 19. September 2005 at 11:01 you wrote: CSS or you can change the HTML output to
become span class=redsome_text/span and define .red in the CSS as well. Simplified example maybe but it explains things a little bit.But you mix structure and visual display. If you'd call the class
importanttext you'd only have to change the css if you want to letit appear blue instead of red:span class=importanttextsome_text/span.importanttext {/* color: red; */
color: blue;}
Martin's correct, class=red is putting presentation in the markup.
The main problem is you'll be tempted to change the color: red to
color: white in teh CSS and then you've got a class name of red that's
actually displayed as white. You'd have to adjust all your html to fix
this ( ss template or otherwise ).
Back on the topic of caching, HTTP v1.1 has better cache control than
1.0. Older proxies and web servers using HTTP v1.0 are problematic
since they don't support / pass the correct header paramaters back to
the browser. Hopefully all these v1.0 systems will be put out to
pasture.
Kym mentioned the HTTP return code 304 Not Modified. This is the
correct mechanism for cache control and designed to reduce the
redundant over head of requesting unchanged content.
I advise anyone interested in understanding this process look at these Firefox extensions
http://livehttpheaders.mozdev.org/
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=967
Chris
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 12:39, Al Sparber wrote: From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] So the use of tables appears to be associated strongly with invalid documents (and not only through poorly formed documents, but also through the use of invalid attributes associated with td and tr elements). In short, using tables is a very good way of raising the risk of invalid documents. With all due respect, that is not very good logic. So, someone inexperienced enough to make an invalid table layout is going to float right through the process of making a CSS-positioned layout? Well, no.. float right through.. I doubt, but they would at the very least minimise the chance of broken markup. The mess that is tables - and here I mean a bunch of tables for layout - can easily lead to broken markup, especially when you have to go back a re-jig something, whether is easier than CSS/P doesn't matter, the fact remains. The problem is that browsers happily render busted table markup quite well - they have to otherwise the web would just simply break - the up and coming developer never finds out about the missing /td or that invalid attribute. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash satay firefox bug
On Mon, 2005-05-23 at 11:38, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Check out the example page in firefox. http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/76/ I can tab fine through that page. Using FF v1.0.4 under Linux. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Text flow and two bottom aligned floats?
Just a quick question.. I am wondering what techniques people would use to layout a paragraph of text with two right floated images and have the text wrap around the images as shown. The main thing is the two images need to both be bottom aligned to each other ;) I have a couple of ideas, but they both seem quite a lot of leg work just to do something quite simple as flow some text around a couple of images. eg Heading +---+ text text text | | text text text | | text text +---+ | | text text | | | | text text +---+ +---+ This one is easy Heading +---+ +---+ text text | | | | text text +---+ | | text text text | | text text text | | text text text +---+ Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Text flow and two bottom aligned floats?
Thanks Geoff I had that one in mind, I'll give it a go.. I had hope to get some CSS/P that would work across any page without having to modify the images or position it in the text. I could chop the image horizontally ( see attachment ) a-la Meyer curvelicious [1] Thanks Chris [1] http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 13:11, Geoff Pack wrote: Not sure if it's possible to do precisely. To get the text to flow above and left means you will have to put the image inline in the text, which means they will jump around a bit depending on the font size and width of the text block. I got the following code to sort-of work by setting the image heights to a multiple of the line-height, and setting a fixed width. You have to fiddle with the placement of the images in the text to make them line up at the bottom. Try changing the text size in your browser - the images should stay in the same place. div style=width:24em; font-size:1em; line-height:1.5em; pLorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. Stet clita kasd nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore img src=tall.gif alt= border=1 align=right style=float:right; width:6em; height:12em; et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est img src=short.gif alt= border=1 align=right style=float:right; width:6em; height:6em;Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod./p /div cheers Geoff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris Blown Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2005 5:52 PM To: WSG Subject: [WSG] Text flow and two bottom aligned floats? Just a quick question.. I am wondering what techniques people would use to layout a paragraph of text with two right floated images and have the text wrap around the images as shown. The main thing is the two images need to both be bottom aligned to each other ;) I have a couple of ideas, but they both seem quite a lot of leg work just to do something quite simple as flow some text around a couple of images. eg Heading +---+ text text text | | text text text | | text text +---+ | | text text | | | | text text +---+ +---+ This one is easy Heading +---+ +---+ text text | | | | text text +---+ | | text text text | | text text text | | text text text +---+ Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** attachment: boxes.png
Re: [WSG] Styling Forms
I'd be pointing you towards styling fieldset and label elements rather than using dl or table Good examples http://www.themaninblue.com/experiment/InForm/ Cheers Chris On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good evening all, I know there's two schools of thought regarding forms where one uses a table and the other a definition list to style and layout the data fields. I have a simple form on a client's Contact Us page, and I wondered if there's a consensus as to which method is more semantically correct? Please advise... Kind regards, Mario S. Cisneros ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Kay Smoljak wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? I've had a lot of success with Macromedia Contribute. You can pick up a copy for around AUD $220 from Harvey Norman or Harris Technology, it totally respects server-side code and standards, and if you use Dreamweaver templates you can specify which parts of the page the client is allowed to edit. It's very squarely targeted at *maintenance* rather than "you can use this to build your own web site". Highly recommended! A good way to limit what clients can edit within Contribute is to employ server side includes for the parts that you want to lock down. http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_16675 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Parent Selectors
how about
a img {
...
}
though i'd rather see
#nav a img {
...
}
See for more info ---
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/selectors/descendant_selectors.html
Cheers
Chris
RMW Web Publishing wrote:
I trying do solve a selector (see
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/selectors_type.htm) that I'm
not sure can even be solved (without changes to my HTML)
I am using a bottom border on links for easier reading (compared with
underlines), but only want the border to appear on text links - not
images. Is there a why to set the style on a parent ('a') when you
know what the child is ('img')?
HTML:
img src=icon.png title=Image alone style=width:20px;height:20px /
a href=nowhere.html title=Link aloneLone link/a
a href=somewhere.html title=Link imageimg src=icon.png
title=Image alone style=width:20px;height:20px //a
CSS:
a {
text-decoration: none;
border-bottom: thin solid black; /* easier to read as does not cut
through g's, y's, etc */
}
img {
margin: 0;
border: thin solid black;
}
PS. Mac OSX users coding in Dreamweaver might want to try
http://www.skti.org/. I started using t last week and have not looked
back.
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Re: [WSG] Parent Selectors
Um.. Sorry I see what you are trying to do now.. I read that a bit too
fast the first time ...
Good question!
Chris Blown wrote:
how about
a img {
... }
though i'd rather see
#nav a img {
...
}
See for more info ---
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/selectors/descendant_selectors.html
Cheers
Chris
RMW Web Publishing wrote:
I trying do solve a selector (see
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/selectors_type.htm) that
I'm not sure can even be solved (without changes to my HTML)
I am using a bottom border on links for easier reading (compared with
underlines), but only want the border to appear on text links - not
images. Is there a why to set the style on a parent ('a') when you
know what the child is ('img')?
HTML:
img src=icon.png title=Image alone
style=width:20px;height:20px /
a href=nowhere.html title=Link aloneLone link/a
a href=somewhere.html title=Link imageimg src=icon.png
title=Image alone style=width:20px;height:20px //a
CSS:
a {
text-decoration: none;
border-bottom: thin solid black; /* easier to read as does not
cut through g's, y's, etc */
}
img {
margin: 0;
border: thin solid black;
}
PS. Mac OSX users coding in Dreamweaver might want to try
http://www.skti.org/. I started using t last week and have not looked
back.
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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[WSG] IE7 may ship ahead of Longhorn
This doesn't appear to have been posted to the list yet. Sorry in advance if it has. http://news.com.com/Reversal+Next+IE+update+divorced+from+Windows/2100-1032_3-5577263.html Good news for web standards? Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 may ship ahead of Longhorn
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 10:03, John Allsopp wrote: Being the eternal naysayer that I am, I'll say, um, nay. On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 11:35, Bruce Morrison wrote: Also it should be noted that IE7 will only be for Longhorn and XP SP2. Older IE browsers will be with us for a while yetor more people will move to alternatives. I don't know why MS just don't do what Apple did with Safari and leverage an open source rendering engine like Gecko or KHtml. Oh, that's right they'd break all those IE only web applications that just about every large MS shop / corporation uses to do business. Now that wouldn't be very nice, would it? Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 21:35, John Allsopp wrote: The UI conventions of the desktop have been around for a generation now. They represent the baseline of user expectations about how an interface should look, and work. Their appearance and behaviour are burned deep into the unconscious of all computer users. Let's not keep reinventing the wheel. Well said John. This kind of mentality is the key to creating intuitive interfaces that everyone can easily understand and use. On the other hand, you could copy some of these.. Interface Hall of Shame http://digilander.libero.it/chiediloapippo/Engineering/iarchitect/shame.htm Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)
I hesitantly suggest a good place for this discussion would be on Justin French's Interface list. http://lists.indent.com.au/mailman/listinfo/interface Cheers Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Should we be thankful for IE's non-development?
On Wed, 2005-01-19 at 12:20, Chris W. Parker wrote: David R mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think so. It'd just be more of the same. Some people would have old browsers that don't work right and other people would have newer browsers that do work right. Which browsers they are makes no difference imo. The main point on this is, while Microsoft maintains its master share on the browser that most people have installed _and_ they drag the chain on further development, they are essentially holding web based innovation at ransom. We all understand what web standards means for the web at large, efficient light weight, beautifully structured and presented content. But the average person only sees the external bits, so in the process of explaining the IE issue, we sometimes end up looking like M$ bashers and raving zealots. The security angle is the only one that seems to get the point through at the moment. I strongly believe that Microsoft are fully aware of their strangle hold and until something like Firefox becomes a significant threat, they will sit by idle without a care in the world and claim that IE is everything their customers wanted. Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A quick breakdown of some code today
russ - maxdesign wrote:
a[href^=http:] { background: green; }
How about this one?
input[value=blue] { background: blue; }
Apply this to a form input and try typing in blue, is the CSS applied
in real time? Not so in Firefox..
Even though the DOM knows that the value has been updated the CSS is not
applied. [1]
I wonder if switching stylesheets would force an update?
Regards
Chris Blown
[1] http://www.hinterlands.com.au/testing/attribute_selectors.html
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[WSG] VoiceXML promises voice-to-Web convergence
Hi Looking forward, some members might be interested to read about the new proposed recommendations [1] on voice enabled web technology. I have had some experience with vxml [2] in relation to IP telephony and IVR ( interactive voice response ) systems. These are powerful xml languages and will hopefully enable us to create far more accessible websites in the near future [3]. The more developers out there who know about vxml and its associated technologies will help it move into the mainstream [4]. Take a look.. Cheers Chris Blown [1] Working Draft - http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-voicexml21-20040728/ SSML - http://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis/ [2] vxml home - http://www.voicexml.org/ [3] open source browser - http://www.publicvoicexml.org/ [4] News Forge - http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/10/15/1738253 On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 17:25, Jackie Reid wrote: Why cant you just say read content and leave the skip bit out altogether jackie Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Hill, Tim wrote: I believe as more sites take this approach on board, it will become more prevalent to these users of what the links do. I'd agree with that. Additional two points: - even if the user doesn't understand what they are, and decides to skip them (no pun intended), it doesn't significantly degrade their user experience compared to other sites; what I'm trying to say is: it's a bonus, an extra feature, icing on the cake that many large sites don't necessarily have yet...but it's not an essential part. Even if the user ignores it, the site remains as usable as the one without skip links; - be careful not to take the comment of a single user to signify a whole section of the audience; of course, it's a comment we need to take on board, but it can only be a truly useful comment that actually dramatically influences our design decisions if an overwhelming number of users make it - in the same way that we wouldn't necessarily take any single sighted user's comments as an imperative (hey, I don't like navigation on the left, but I prefer it on the top). That's not to say that it's not an interesting observation. Just to clarify: I'm not trying to belittle the original thread starter's message...just playing devil's advocate and making sure this doesn't cause a knee-jerk wave from less pragmatic developers. Patrick H. Lauke ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] video standards?
On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 09:33, Damian Sweeney wrote: .mov is generally not available for Linux (with the exception of using Codeweavers wine ($$) to run Quicktime for Windows in Linux). The Linux mplayer plugin for Firefox [1] will play pretty much everything I have tested, though some of the M$ formats are a bit buggy ( due to reverse engineering ) The plugin is still in development and does hang sometimes. Having the one player for all formats is quite good. ( excluding flash of course, which also works fine under Linux ) All in all video streaming under Linux in Firefox is looking quite good. .mpg works well (as it does in Mac and Windows). Only some .wmv and .avi files will play (not sure what the distinguishing factor is) in most of the players available. A lot of different codecs exist for both wmv and avi. These file formats are just data envelopes that hold the data, the data itself can then be encoded using different codecs. eg. DivX, Xvid, mpeg4 etc. Real media stuff is available, but generally a pain as you have to install a proprietary binary player, so they aren't well supported by distributions which makes it difficult to upgrade. Linux also has the Helix and Real Player [2] for real one media formats Flash is available for Firefox in Linux, but once again there's the binary install issue. I don't see this as an issue? Having the source for everything under Linux would be nice, so that you could build flash into you own custom application, but for most Linux users the pre-built Flash plugin is fine and MM provide builds for most browsers. Opera under Linux for example can happily use the firefox flash plugin. Regards Chris Blown [1] http://mplayerplug-in.sourceforge.net [2] https://player.helixcommunity.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Underscores and multiple class names (WAS: Re: [WSG] colgroup alignment issue)
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Did some really small superficial test to see which older browsers support underscores in class names: - IE 4 no - IE 5, 5.5 yes - Netscape 4.77 yes (surprisingly) - Netscape 6 no - Netscape 7 yes (obviously this list is far from complete) While I was at it, also tested support for multiple class names (e.g. class=warning notice referring to .warning and .notice simultaneously): - IE 4 no - IE 5, 5.5 yes - Netscape 4.77 no - Netscape 6, 7 yes Now I remember why I joined the WSG list again... Thanks Patrick Underscores are not part of our CSS naming conventions, though a lot of them still slip through the net.. ;) Multiple class names, a trap for younger players class=arial bold red big Don't laugh... I've seen it done .. and it was thought cool at the time, until they were told otherwise..or cracked over the head, I can't recall.. ;) and look to make it blue all you do is change the class name to from red to blue, pretty cool eh? *shivers* Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Underscores and multiple class names (WAS: Re: [WSG] colgroup alignment issue)
Hi Natalie I achieve this with using multiple classes on the object eg class=borders floatR or just class=floatR for those that don't need the border, but must float. Is there an issue with this method or have a missed the point of your post? I have used the exact method you describe, and I likewise wondered about the issues. It comes down to a couple of things ( other WSG member might add to this too ) Usually the elements you are styling like this are groups of images or groups of other similar elements. If you need to alter the position of one you have to edit the markup and that feels a bit like presentation in the markup. If you want to alter the complete group then you could edit the CSS, but now your naming is wrong floatR should be floatL for example, Then you really should to do a global search replace in the markup to get it straight. Though there is a case for this in relation to reducing CSS redundancy. Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE [OT?]
Thought this might be a worthwhile link for WSG members. Please send flames off list ;) Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE http://news.com.com/Microsoft+says+Firefox+not+a+threat+to+IE/2100-1032_3-5448719.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] sliding faux columns
On Wed, 2004-11-03 at 06:08, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: sliding faux columns by eric meyer/doug bowman http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/09/03/sliding-faux-columns/ Thanks for the link Patrick. Eric explains one issue that has bothered our development team for years. Even though only a small proportion of designs require this grid layout, within the mind of a developer its often very hard to accept. The general repeating comment I hear is, unless it handles 100% of layout behaviour then its inadequate. Much better put by Eric Its always struck me as one of the biggest missed opportunities of CSS. Its a damn shame really. Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 22:14, Dean Jackson wrote: .. Would you intentionally build a car park that stopped Toyotas from entering? If there was a lot of Toyotas parking in my building and being that they all leaked oil in my car park and often their drivers scratched other peoples cars because of complete ignorance of anyone else, costing me a bucket load of money to maintain my car park.. not to mention the sad clients scratched cars, then yes I might consider banning Toyotas. Did I mention I hate analogies. ;) Regards Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 02:30, john wrote: Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? Here is a recent discussion on the proposed CSS3 property 'target-new' which was considering putting target behaviour into CSS, uurrgh! I think the points raised here, very much hit the nail on the head. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2004Sep/0074.html Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DOM setAttribute in IE?
On Thu, 2004-08-19 at 16:22, Justin French wrote: Can anyone either: - suggest an alternate way to achieve this, or This might help http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/methods/attachevent.asp if (anchor.attachEvent) anchor.attachEvent(onClick, function_name); ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Image replacement techniques for linked elements
On Sat, 2004-08-14 at 23:44, James Ellis wrote: What I've done is probably not done often but it is worth considering. Firefox ships with its minimum font size turned off. I also use the very same setting. It can be a common adjustment for people who use XFree86 or X.org under unix ( and its variants), since true type anti aliased fonts at anything under 10px pretty much disappear. esp. when running resolutions above 1280x960. However I do prefer using this technique over others, since I consider the minimum font setting a rarity. Also if you can allow a little bit of extra image padding ( with a nice solid bg colour ) then you can almost hide 12px easy enough anyway. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] forms and SSL
On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 08:55, Lindsay Evans wrote: I just did a quick test using Ethereal http://ethereal.com/, and it looks like the browser requests the server's certificate, then encrypts the data that it is sending. Using Firefox 0.9.3 Internet Explorer 6. Thanks for that. Of course, if you're intending to put this into practice somewhere, I'd suggest a bit more testing :) No I'd rather serve the whole thing via https. I've seen quite a few larger sites that need to consider security doing this and though it seems a perfectly secure practise, visitors might be reluctant entering sensitive data into their browser without the closed little pad lock icon appearing ;) Cheers Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] forms and SSL
A discussion popped up here recently, and though its not really specific to web standards, I still think its worthy of a bit of discussion on the list. If you have a form that is served via standard http with its action set to a https server, then one assumes that the UA will send an encrypted post request. Or does it? One example is www.americanexpress.com.au which happily accepts members password from the ( http ) front page and posts to a https server. I guess the next question is can you post a clear text request to a https server without complaint? Regards Chris Blown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hacks
Andy Budd wrote: So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? I try to avoid them. Just this week I had some really good results hack free. I did some testing on Mac IE and came across one of its div layout issues. Which are well known and can be fixed using the div clearing technique, I noticed a javascript function that does a document.write which I quickly added to check and hey presto it fixed the problem. But this was additional markup even if it was added by javascript and I felt that I could get it around it. So I adjusted the footer a bit and put it inside the main div container, since the footer clears:both it corrected the problem and didn't seem to alter the page layout at all. I had the fix and could of left it at that, but I forged on and altered a few things and ended up working around the problem. Its like losing your keys. I am the sort of person who still looks for my missing keys even though I have a spare set ready to go.. I just can seem to forget about it and find them later on, I am not really happy until I've found the missing set... The hack here is the spare set of keys, the solution until I find the missing set.. But I usually can't let it go.. unless I they are well and truly lost. ;) One question I have, Is using a CSS selector that is not support by a certain browser, a hack? Some people think so.. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.0 Transitional and autocomplete
Hi All I just noticed that our discussion on XHTML 1.0 Transitional and autocomplete went off list. I've posted this in hopes that others may benefit from the info. Cheers Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 13:00, Peter Asquith wrote: Chris Thanks for the tip on the meta statements - I've found a Microsoft entry at http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/ie/5/all/reskit/en-us/part1/ch01over.mspx that explains the meta tags required to disable autocomplete. Excellent. Cheers Peter Chris Blown wrote: Peter You may be able to access this via the DOM using javascript and set this attribute to off for all INPUT elements. ( excluding submit and button etc ), though users could just turn off javascript. I also recall something about including no cache meta statements effecting how IE uses auto complete too. Might be worth testing out. Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 11:44, Peter Asquith wrote: Hi Chris Thanks for your prompt reply. We offer an on-line service so we don't have access to the candidates' machines. I notice Ian Hickson at Opera Software is working on a proposal for an XHTML module that addresses this issue (http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/forms/xforms-basic-1) but I can't find any other mentions. Cheers Peter Chris Blown wrote: Peter If you have control of the machines, then you should turn off the auto complete function from Tools-Options-Content. AFAIK autocomplete is not a standard attribute even in 4.01. If you are using XP Pro you can setup security in the Group Policy editor. This allows you to restrict access to these IE settings for certain user groups so they can't go and turn it back on. Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 11:08, Peter Asquith wrote: Hi all I'm in the process of validating the markup in a suite of on-line assessment tools, which includes an ability measure. As you can imagine, in situations where those being assessed share the same computer, it's not acceptable for IE users with AutoComplete enabled to have the previous candidate's answers defaulted! The autocomplete attribute is not part of the XHTML 1.0 Transitional DTD and therefore any input tags containing autocomplete=off will not validate. The best I can think of is to sniff for IE (much as I'm loathe to revert to last century's techniques) and insert the attribute on a case by case basis. Does anybody know if there are workarounds for this or is this just one of those things? Cheers Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] id or class on html or body
CSS signatures ? Here http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/13291 On Fri, 2004-07-09 at 17:55, Mordechai Peller wrote: Putting an id or class on the html or body tags is a useful way of targeting slight variations in style rules with resorting to a second style sheet. I remember seeing a discussion of the pros and cons, but I can't remember where. Does anybody have a link? Or perhaps the discussion can begin anew. Thanks. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] What do browsers download?
As stated, it is very much browser dependant. I use Firefox for daily browsing and I like to load pages in background tabs. I was surprised when I first noticed that switching to a tab Firefox would then fetch CSS images ( unless cached ). If you are really keen on the ordering of http requests by your browser then the best method is to use a local proxy like proximitron. Of course under Firefox you can use the Live HTTP headers extension which is awesome. Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 22:44, Chris Stratford wrote: Im not 100% sure... but here is what I think a browser would download, in what order.. 1st it would download the HTML code... then any Images in the document... then the DTD... then the Stylesheets... then the Stylesheet images... then 3rd party gear - flash, java, other applets and mods... just my guess... :) John Horner wrote: You mention an ABC internal standard of less than 60kb filesize. How does this work with dynamic pages? There are relatively few dynamic pages on the ABC website, so it doesn't often come up, but of course I'd expect things like search results to be arranged using some sort of paging, with each page a sensible size. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Site Deconstruction, those crafty Germans
Thats _really_ bad Browser checking is a thing of the past and should be gladly forgotten. Something that we can all thank the web standards project for. Is there a valid reason to do browser checking? I can't think of one... Regards Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 10:30, Neerav wrote: The site may be wonderful in many ways but I dont approve of how they handle an opera user: You are using Opera 7.23 In order to view the online Mercedes Experience, either Netscape 6.2 or above or Internet Explorer 5.x or above is required. We recommend you update your browser by following the links below. Choose a recommended browser: Microsoft Internet Explorer for Windows Microsoft Internet Explorer for Macintosh Netscape * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] web standards related rss feeds?
http://www.sitepoint.com/syndication/ On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 10:45, Neerav wrote: I have recently become a fan of RSS feeds as an efficient way to trawl the net for interesting news and articles, and would appreciate knowing which web standards related rss feeds you read Here are 3 good ones Ive found to start off with: http://www.alistapart.com/rss.xml http://www.zeldman.com/feed/zeldman.xml http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/buzz.xml * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] overflow: auto;
Some good reading / opinions on this here. ( esp. in Comments ) http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/design/iframes_vs_overflow.php Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 15:10, Chris wrote: Hi, I the process of a design that begs overflow: auto; what is theopinion on this wonderful alternative to frames? Computers need more Africa in them. -Brian Eno Chris * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Standard Hacks?
That is true, however already knowing of such hacks enables you to make this kind of judgement. So for the purpose of education these should help you out John http://diveintomark.org/safari/csshacks/ http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack Enjoy or not ;) On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 18:15, Kay Smoljak wrote: Would it be beneficial to come up with a list of Standard Hacks :-) I think the idea is that you should stay away from hacks as much as possible. One exception is the box model hack for IE5 and IE5.5 - but there are a couple of different ways of doing that one, and which one you pick depends on the particular problem you are having. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Min-Width IE Workaround ?
Thats funny Mark.. I happened to hit Froogle by accident after following that link and look what I found.. http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=min-width%20IEhl=enlr=ie=UTF-8sa=Ntab=wf Good to see Westciv in there. eh John? Regards Chris Blown On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 18:26, Mark Stanton wrote: http://www.google.com/search?q=min-width+IE * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Simon Willison
Nice work again.. Thanks Russ! On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 14:00, russ - maxdesign wrote: Read Ten Questions for Simon Willison here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/simon-willison.cfm * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever
Yeah, I second that... Russ should be on the list too.. ;) On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 11:12, Kay Smoljak wrote: you know who I'd like to see interviewed? That Russ guy who runs that cool site... :) -- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley - Maxdesign Sent: Wednesday, 2 June 2004 9:03 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever Well... That is slightly incorrect... So far we have done: Eric Meyer Keith Robinson Anne van Kesteren Nick Finck Andy Budd Patrick Griffiths Simon Willison None of these people will be presenting at Web Essentials 2004 in Sydney. Over the coming months I'll be interviewing Dave Shea, then possible Doug Bowman, Joe Clark and John Allsopp - all of whom will be presenting at WE04. Russ AFAIK You have to be a big player in web standards, there has also been some correlation between interviewees and people at the Web Essentials seminar series later this year which is fair enough. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG]
I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two, the best of each method merged.. The Hybrid Approach. Regards Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-05-28 at 17:41, Gary Menzel wrote: Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death', a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css Interesting read. After finishing reading this, I felt like I was Luke Skywalker and had just found out that Darth Vader was my father. I wanted to join the dark side of the force and go back to coding with tables again. I'll tell you why... It was the compatibility thing that got me. So. he wrote more code (embedded tables shudder) - but he delivered an acceptable end result that rendered friendly in virtually all of the browsers. And, other than remembering the old hacks (versus the new ones he was still to implement to fix up some of the CSS/XHTML incompatibilities) it was all smooth sailing from beginning to end. The result with CSS and XHTML was less than pleasant and he still had to go through the hack files to get it to work acceptably across the majority of platforms. Dont worry though. I will continue on with CSS/XHTML. In the end, Darth Vader wont seduce me to the dark side and he will finally, on his death bed, repent of his sins and return to his rightful place and the Emporer will lose. [NOTE: any similarities of the above-mentioned Star Wars (tm LucasFilm) characters to anyone living or dead is purely co-incidental] Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG]
For sure Jamie. My statement was intended more as feedback on the article than a real world solution. It would still be a useful exercise for the article to demonstrate this approach esp. for the benefit of new developers on how to get the job done while they are still in the process of learning all the required disciplines to achieve the second version. It does take time to learn all these trick / hacks and given that the author knew a lot of the solutions before hand helped him achieve the layout in the time it did. Sometimes its easy to under estimate just how frustrating it can be for new comers to these methods. The table example in the article is a little extreme IMO, most developers still using tables know about CSS and would of at least used padding and borders to do the butterfly image. Forget the font tags too, I've not seen anyone first hand using these in a long time. The all or nothing attitude is not helpful to people learning since they just give up and go back to those bad practices. Anyway, maybe its just a long week messing with my judgment, but working with people who don't share the same care for detail or philosophy as you do can often lead to compromises. I'd rather have as much presentation in CSS as possible with one table than the horrible mess shown in that article. Its an easy choice really. Regards Chris Blown Jamie Mason wrote: Tables are for tabular data only, not for use for layouts as a positional grid. The only time tables should be used with CSS is to present tabular data in the content of a CSS laid out design. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: Hybrid layouts
Indeed Alan, you are in the best position to learn CSS, without the need, as Mordechai, mentions to rewire your layout thinking. A friend of mine new to CSS layout said to me the other day that he finds the process counter intuitive and akin to trying to find a ball bearing in a pool of diarrhea.. But he's always using rather strong analogies.. ;) @Jamie : Well I can't blame you for any misunderstanding, my post did lean in that direction a little now that you mention it. The Stars Wars bit caught my eye and sucked me.. I wrote something about Yoda first up.. but thought better of it... :) Chris Blown PS. I only just realised that the original thread had no subject, I completely missed that one.. I need a beer.. Alan Milnes wrote: I think part of this debate is because many developers have years of experience and know all the tricks of getting tables laid out how they want. For someone new, like me, I'm as well to dive straight in and learn CSS rather than worrying about the old way. I'd be interested in your views of my site for the PBM game I play: http://www.gameplan.org.uk (CSS at http://www.gameplan.org.uk/styles/gplan.css) As far as I can tell it looks fine in Mozilla / IE6 / Opera, the tables in the middle column aren't displayed properly in IE5 and it seems to work OK in Lynx, although the main content is a bit far down. Thanks, Alan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Browsers Emulator - On open source [OT]
Sorry, I just couldn't let this one go.. Its a common misconception that you cannot sell open source software. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html ;) On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 11:56, Justin French wrote: Screw opensource -- I would pay serious cash for such a tool! This is MUCH better than browsercam, because * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Browsers Emulator
That's true, running IE6 under Linux via wine [1] even introduces extra quirks and bugs, which I sometimes falsely blame IE for until I go an actually check on XP. It does work relatively well though, and its handy for quick testing. Regards Chris Blown [1] http://www.winehq.com On Wed, 2004-05-26 at 10:15, Peter Firminger wrote: It's very difficult (impossible) to emulate all the bugs in a browser without running the browser. Emulators can emulate the required behaviour but generally not the bugs. So unless you actually do what people like browsercam have done and set up a bank of machines running the browsers and screenshot them, it's a bit pointless. P well i'm not trying to use an paid-online tool i'm trying to build open source free tool. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] naming a form so it validates?
You should be able to do all your client side checking using DOM access
methods. The name attribute in form is no longer needed nor desirable.
Rough example
input type=text id=name value= name=Name/
if ( document.getElementById(name) == )
{
alert(Please enter a name);
}
Cheers
Chris
On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 11:26, robert e. lee wrote:
I have had a form up for a long time and it vallidates as xhtml 1.0
transitional. But I have to wonder why it is that I can't get that last
error fixed so it is strict...
I have a name attribute in the form tag, but I need it there due to the
javascript validations necessary for client side checking,
name=surveyform.
I tried looking into the W3C specs for xhtml and tried alternatives like
id but in the end gave up. So out of curiosity, what should I have used
for this purpose?
Thanx in advance for any input.
_
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Re: [WSG] naming a form so it validates?
Ooops, that should of been ;)
if ( document.getElementById(name).value == )
{
alert(Please enter a name);
}
On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 11:26, robert e. lee wrote:
I have had a form up for a long time and it vallidates as xhtml 1.0
transitional. But I have to wonder why it is that I can't get that last
error fixed so it is strict...
I have a name attribute in the form tag, but I need it there due to the
javascript validations necessary for client side checking,
name=surveyform.
I tried looking into the W3C specs for xhtml and tried alternatives like
id but in the end gave up. So out of curiosity, what should I have used
for this purpose?
Thanx in advance for any input.
_
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] Safari on x86
That's what we did. We have one little lonely eMac in our office for browser testing and other Mac related development projects. It was a necessary upgrade since the old Power PC 7200/120 just couldn't cope anymore. Chris On Fri, 2004-05-21 at 16:19, Michael Donnermeyer wrote: You'd be better off buying a cheap mac to test on. The PearPC thing is full of bugs and slower than a dead turtle (talk about slow!). From what I've seen, it 1/500th the speed of your current processor. On May 20, 2004, at 04:42, Ralph wrote: Hi all.. I hope this is not too off topic.. But I came across a project on SourceForge called PearPC (URL: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pearpc/ ) which seems to allow MacOS to run on x86 (and posix).. For some time I been wondering how I can get Safari (or any other Mac browser) to work on a x86.. I'd really like to hear from anyone who has been able to get it to work.. Or at least thinking of trying... If you wish to reply, feel free to reply off-list to my address... Thanks! Ralph * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
On Sat, 2004-05-15 at 09:25, John Allsopp wrote: So rather than seeing something like at times, it may be necessary to use a non standards based approach to achieve an outcome within certain constraints, and that is ok they see all those standards zealots really don't know about the real world so everything they say can safely be ignored. One of the things that I find hard to believe in this whole debate is that tables are some how seen as a non standards based approach. Of course an argument could be made that tables only exist in the standard for legacy reasons, since dropping them would break the whole web. We know better than that, tables still have a place in the standard, by the same token what of the comments about floats and their original purpose, does the fact that we use them for other purposes make it wrong? Judging by the comments to your post, you'll see that a lot of people want to use tables, largely because that is what they know and do now. They simply don't want to accept the arguments in favour of a standards based web. That's fine by me, they are quite entitled to do so. I don't think they are very wise, but while I evangelise web standards, I don't insist on people using them. But unfortunately an article like yours is not read by them in the spirit in which you intended, it is read as a vindication of their position. See, Andy Budd agrees with me. There is indeed people who may take Andy's words as an excuse to continue using nested tables as they see fit. But I think most people who read Andy's article understand its general flavour. The advantages to using modern markup and css are quite obvious to most people, esp. those who have an interest in new concepts. These concepts we pride ourselves on are ideal and given a perfect world would stand out alone as the one way, however in practise and mainly due to IE this is not the case, and its these factors that make it possible for a decent case to maybe working in a table here or there. This is the one single fact that I've taken from all this banter. I would also like to think that most people who use tables for layout are fully aware of the short comings of such a method and that they realise its a choice they've made that others may not have. The development process is not usually so clean cut and from my experience I realise that most developers face a multitude of different variables that can sway these decisions around in the wind. As I imagine you have seen John, its a difficult thing to try and explain to a seasoned table builder how there is another way, an even better way. The acceptance of this process given complete ignorance of the benefits is an uphill battle. The discovery of these ideals by the individual is the best solution. Look, I know you like tables and it seems easy now, but here read this, and get back to me hand them a good book on modern markup authoring techniques. If they see the light then great, otherwise .. well tough. The popular response to Andy's article that using the odd table without nesting them, is simple practical advice. I don't really think the odd table is that detrimental to our efforts of advocating web standards. Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Crazy idea for validation.
At some stage, but that does look different to what I recall. Certainly a step in the right direction. On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 14:22, Mark Stanton wrote: Hi Chris Have you tried turning on verbose output? This can be done by going to the extended interface at http://validator.w3.org/detailed.html or by changing verbose=0 to verbose=1 in the URL. Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS support table?
For Mozilla based browsers, have a look here. http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/sidebars/ Though no mention of browser support, links into the correct section of the w3c are very helpful. Chris On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 01:46, Razvan Pop wrote: !!blue wrote: Hi all, Where can I find some sort of table that lists the CSS attributes and the browsers that support each attribute? I've found a few here and there, for example: -- www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/basic_concepts.html or -- www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp are there any others I should be looking at? Not really. Those should be enough. thanks, Zulema · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Z u l e m a O r t i z w e b d e s i g n e r email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] website : http://zoblue.com/ weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/ · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
vertical-align : bottom; On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 15:54, theGrafixGuy wrote: A CSS question - I have some centered text formatted via a class in div id= and I need it at the bottom of the div but still HORIZONTALLY centered - how? Thanks for the help in advance Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Question on javascript
From my experience using javascript, as Mark says, go with the DOM. We've had good success with complex form interaction using DOM / javascript. These interfaces work on almost every browser apart the grumpy old bunch. Being an admin type interface we detect old browsers and politely ask them to upgrade, offering some of the benefits. Surprisingly most people upgrade when provided a link. Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 09:19, Mark Stanton wrote: I agree with Ryan - coding for specific browsers is a futile excerise. We do use javascript quite a bit but its usually to provide additional funcitonality to users who are able to handle it. The empahsis is on people still being able to use the site without javascript. This could include things like having the text search inside a search box, but then removing it when the user clicks into the search box or providing tree style navigation. Javascript is ok, but must be used with care. I think the best approach is to aim at the DOM ECMA standards (O'Reilly have a great book on this) and not getting trapped into browser specific or IE only scripting. Cheers Mark * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
You've caught me out Simon! I might of let that statement play devils advocate, so I could get up on the soap box for a bit. ;) Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-05-04 at 00:58, Simon Jessey wrote: I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I was trying to say, Chris. What I was trying to say is this: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important to Microsoft. I absolutely and completely agree that they are important to designers, developers, and users alike. At least, however, this lack of innovation and the dominant position has given designers and developers a period of stability. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web : http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: Chris Blown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C? On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS: writing-mode / MS runs W3C?
On Sun, 2004-05-02 at 23:55, Simon Jessey wrote: Microsoft's dominant market position creates a condition where browser enhancements and innovation are not very important. Sorry I must disagree. These _are_ important, not just to designers, but to all people who experience web pages on the Internet. Microsoft's position creates a condition where they could suppress and control enhancement and innovation. Simple fact is that IE doesn't make M$ money, its actually lost them more money than any other application. M$ are well known for subverting standards to protect their market share. This is the only reason why they have their fingers in the W3C pie. M$ are quite happy with the current situation. IE6 has major share and the fact that it lacks features is not greatly know by the average person, a fact that Microsoft are very happy with. I agree it is debatable that the average person might not find these features as important and you and I. This in itself is not an acceptable reason for not abiding by standards. The only thing _we_ can do is to continue educating people about the importance of web standards, eventually, ( and I believe this is already happening ) Microsoft might just sit up and take notice. The real issue is, Microsoft have the power, resources and money to free these features to the world and truth be told they don't care... Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] marquee text
Have a look at http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/ Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 16:22, Jackie Reid wrote: My client has asked me for a section of scrolling text dammit! Have searched online...cant find anything other than the fact that the marquee tag has been depreciated.' Is there anyway that this sort of thing can be done without effecting on the validation and accessibility of a site? Anyone know where i can find some info on this? :( Jackie Reid * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for Eric Meyer - a WSG interview
Nice work Russ.. keep them coming! Eric's level headed attitude never fails to impress. Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:01, russ - maxdesign wrote: Hi all, Announcing an exciting addition to the WSG site. I have been interviewing a range of high profile web developers and web gurus about web standards, CSS and web related topics. Each interviewee has been asked 10 questions. We had intended to hold off launching these interviews till the new site was launched, but these interviews are just too good to hold off. So, every week I'll publish one of these interviews on our site in the new features section. And, who better than to start with Eric Meyer? Eric is grilled about his new books, image replacement techniques, font-size, CSS hacks and more: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/eric-meyer.cfm Stay tuned. Over the coming weeks there will be more including: - D. Keith Robinson - Nick Finck - Andy Budd - Anne van Kesteren - Patrick Griffiths And more... Hope you like them! Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Footer on the very bottom of the viewing port
Hey Mike, Check here http://scott.sauyet.name/CSS/Demo/FooterDemo2.html Regards Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 17:01, Mike Kear wrote: I want to have a footer stuck to the bottom of the browser window, but if the window reduces in size, the footer goes over the top of other page content. What I'd like to do is have the footer stick to the bottom of the browser, except if it collides with other page content, which will push it down below the bottom of the viewing port and have a vertical scroll bar appear. Is this possible with CSS? I know it's done with tables, because that's how this site is now, but I want to get rid of these tables. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks, Windsor, NSW, Australia. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
Very nice Peter. Smooth and clean is all good. I used to play around with Cinema 4D on the go ole Amiga. Heh, that brings back some fond memories. ;) Cheers Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Fri, 2004-03-12 at 11:49, Universal Head wrote: Hi all Just about to be officially announced, my new fully CSS/XHTML 1.0Trans site, and the smoothest experience I've had with css so far: http://www.cinema4duser.com Comments and crits most welcome. Peter UniversalHead Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
You can put the favicon.ico file in the webroot. This works without the need for any markup. However this doesn't work for IE. Works fine other browsers. IE is also picky about the file format. Cheers Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au On Fri, 2004-03-12 at 13:35, Universal Head wrote: This doesn't validate either - does anyone have the correct validatingcode for inserting a favicon? Peter On 12/03/2004, at 12:50 PM, James Ellis wrote: The validator is having some issues with link rel=shortcuticon trylink rel=icon ... / instead and you'll have a valid site! UniversalHead Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?
Seona
You've got a few choices
1. As Beau mentions dynamically generate the style sheet.
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=cssmaker.php /
2. Adjust inline style dynamically from the database
3. Have a collection of style sheets that are themes, Zen Garden style.
eg.
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=? echo $userStylesheet ?/
Not sure here, but method 1 might have caching issues, I've never tried
this, so perhaps Beau can comment here.
Inline styles are fine, only include the one you want members to modify.
The theme style sheet method gives you less database content ( only the
name of the style sheet ) and better control of what the site looks
like, although this can limit the members choice of colours it does stop
members from setting the text and background colours both to black. I've
seen this sort of thing before and it goes something like this
Why can't I see anything its all black?
Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au
On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 15:38, Beau wrote:
You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
like this
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=cssmaker.php /
?php
header('Content-type: text/css');
echo 'H1 { font-family: Arial; }
// etc!
?
obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change it
so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
pretending to be a stylesheet :)
HTH
Beau
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
Re: [WSG] SimpleBits ripped - is this for real?
Yeah, sorry I should of mentioned that Dan Cederholm is well aware of it. On Fri, 2004-03-05 at 12:57, Michael Zeltner wrote: oops, it has already been reported... too late... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] turning back to the dark side...
That's good advice. BTW. Using tables doesn't automatically make your markup invalid. You can happily use tables and still get 100% compliant markup. Chris Blown http://hinterlands.com.au Why not just relax a little and do a table for the part that's giving you all the heartburn, and move on the rest of the site as compliant. The html wont validate, but will that really matter that much? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
Granted, these are just examples by Dave, but this demonstrates why you should always include font-family. My browser defaults to sans serif here, since I don't have Times New Roman. From the font survey link posted yesterday I guess I am one of the 20 odd percent of Linux users who don't have this font. From my experience with Linux Times is the most common. font-family : Times New Roman, Times, serif; Regards Chris Blown Dave Shea has some nice examples of using Times New Roman, half way through the article at: http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2003/07/24/times_new_ro/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Nicely styled Hx tags
The CSS3 content property is a grey semantic area IMHO. If you have hn content in the markup and adjust the presentation in the CSS like colours, fonts and backgrounds, Then what's so unsound about styling the content with an image, this is not content in my mind it is presentation, because it provides ornamentation (what CSS was designed to do) whilst preserving the element it was applied to. If the author ensures the image only does replacement, in other words no extra content is included in the image, then by removing the style sheet you don't lose anything but presentation. I agree with the idea that using the content property for adding content is a bad idea, but using content for replacement is not so bad as everyone is making out. Anyway since only a couple of browsers support this, its not a real alternative, yet... Cheers Chris Blown Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, ...how much worse is it to put *content* inside the CSS file? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] CSS3 Hyperlink Presentation Module - Working Draft
Since XHTML ( Strict ) doesn't allow target attributes for anchors and poking around in the DOM with javascript works seems goofy at best. We need a solution to do targets within CSS. http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-css3-hyperlinks-20040224/ This working draft seems to be heading in the right direction. Any thoughts? Cheers Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Styleswitching
Good stuff.. Mike. Not sure if its just me, but I noticed that the Acoustic Emission Instrumentation link only hovers when my mouse is over Instrumentation Linux FireFox 0.8 ( gtk2 / xft ) Cheers Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-02-27 at 13:45, Michael Kear wrote: Whooh! I just launched my first near-compliant site. It's the first of 5 I'm working on at the moment, all built from scratch to XHTML1.0 Strict. This one has a couple of xhtml validation errors that I'm not sure whether to bother with or not - it's a question of how much can I afford to tinker with it given the penury I'm forced to live under. Anyway, it's a subject that has very little sex-appeal, for a client that wants a site that looks staid and steady because of who his own clients are. But the site is compliant apart from the graphics and the target in the footer. It loads in a fraction of the time it took the old one to load. Have a look if you like. I think I've kind of made a silk purse out of a sow's ear with this one. http://metacoustics.com.au I'm eager to hear what y'all think of it. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Styleswitching
The menus div is overlapping sidemenu causing the top entry in the menu to miss its hover selector ( at least in FireFox here ) Regards Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-02-27 at 15:18, Chris Blown wrote: Good stuff.. Mike. Not sure if its just me, but I noticed that the Acoustic Emission Instrumentation link only hovers when my mouse is over Instrumentation Linux FireFox 0.8 ( gtk2 / xft ) Cheers Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-02-27 at 13:45, Michael Kear wrote: Whooh! I just launched my first near-compliant site. It's the first of 5 I'm working on at the moment, all built from scratch to XHTML1.0 Strict. This one has a couple of xhtml validation errors that I'm not sure whether to bother with or not - it's a question of how much can I afford to tinker with it given the penury I'm forced to live under. Anyway, it's a subject that has very little sex-appeal, for a client that wants a site that looks staid and steady because of who his own clients are. But the site is compliant apart from the graphics and the target in the footer. It loads in a fraction of the time it took the old one to load. Have a look if you like. I think I've kind of made a silk purse out of a sow's ear with this one. http://metacoustics.com.au I'm eager to hear what y'all think of it. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] W3C 1st draft of the CSS media type reader
The first draft of the 'reader' media type. Published to get some early feedback, especially on whether 'reader' is necessary and implementable. http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-css3-reader-20040224/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
meta tags should generally be added to each page, listing keywords that are accurately relevant to the content on the page. Keep the list short and precise. Cheers Chris Blown PS. Not all search engines read nor care about meta keywords On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 15:16, Universal Head wrote: Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
http://literarymoose.info/=/synopsis/metadatum.xhtml http://literarymoose.info/=/destroy/metadatum.xhtml As with most of the Moose's work, this CSS technique only works in the most compliant of browsers. By adding an alternate style sheet you can actually view meta data on screen using this technique, very handy for checking keywords. Cheers Chris Blown On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 15:16, Universal Head wrote: Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Debrief and thanks to Russ Peter
Sorry I missed it guys, looks like I missed a good one.. damn! Thanks for posting the presentation slides.. Regards Chris Blown On Mon, 2004-02-23 at 22:50, t.lucas wrote: Tonight was my first WSG meeting and I'd just like to say a big thanks to Russ and Peter for organising such a great event. Russ: your talk was great and although I thought I knew a fair bit about accessibility I now know I still have a fair way to go. I'm about to finish a job in the next few weeks and I'm going to speak to the client about the benefits you mentioned in your presentation and convince them to spend time increasing the site's accessibility. Peter: Hope to see the photos on the website soon! For those who develop using Macromedia products, and would like to participate in the mx community that were at meeting tonight, Daemon host the usergroups, cfaussie and fugli lists at http://lists.daemon.com.au Thanks again everybody. Looking forward to the next WSG meeting. -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Aural Property in CSS2???
I'm not a not huge fan of these CSS2 properties. What they are trying to achieve is important, but how they achieve it is a mess at best. When voiceXML first started appearing people asked why another language? There is no getting away from the fact that html was designed for visual presentation not audible presentation. Screen readers are doing a pretty good job considering how much of a wadge it really is. Markups like voiceXML are required to really describe content in a suitable way for audible presentation / interaction and many VoiceXML parameter values follow the conventions used in CSS. http://www.voicexml.org/specs/multimodal/x+v/11/examples/ Still a long way to go... Regards Chris Blown Another interesting point is that (AFAIK) screen readers have some of the worst CSS support out of any of the browsers barring lynx (which doesn't support CSS at all). I think most of the aural stuff in CSS is aimed a screen readers and other audio agents (like voicemail services) not your common visual browsers. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Cache Tutorial
Mark Your post wasn't OT, I just thought maybe my reply might of been. I'll probably need to check for the existence of If-Modified-Since in the request header then return the 304, so that it downloads the first time. Then requiring I actually respond with a correctly formatted Last-Modifed. Thanks Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-02-17 at 13:41, Mark Stanton wrote: I really don't think this is OT at all. HTTP is the basis of everything we do and is very much a web standard. I think that if you put the following line of code in your stream.php file: header(HTTP/1.0 304 Not Modified); it should solve your problem. Use the LiveHTTPHeaders plugin for Firefox to test the results out. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Patents and Open Standards
Hey I've been increasingly interested in the latest developments in Europe on software patents and the effect it may have on open source and standards based development. http://swpat.ffii.org/news/recent/index.en.html As all here know, the basis for most IT based standards is interoperability and standardised communication of information. However standards by nature offer a range of concepts that a lot of clever people have invented. Does the combination of patents and standards restrict innovation and development? I reckon so.. its good to see the W3C agree ... http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/ http://xml.coverpages.org/patents.html [ Warning : Super Long ] Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Cache Tutorial
Thanks Mark [OT] though relevant to web caching. Has anyone been able to convince a browser to cache images that are served like this img src=stream.php?/image.jpg alt=image / Adding various header directives in the response should work, but the browser always insists on reloading the image. During standard image requests the web server responds with a 304 Not Modified response when the image is cached, so that the browser doesn't bother to reload the image. I cannot seem to emulate this behaviour via a fpassthru() PHP call. Regards Chris Blown On Tue, 2004-02-17 at 10:04, Mark Stanton wrote: Very nice thorough article on how web caching works and how it can be used wisely. http://www.mnot.net/cache_docs/ Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Friday Afternoon Funny
Thought I'd share this one with everyone, we received a list of corrections today from one of our clients, and we found a particularly humorous snippet. This correction was given in relation to paragraph line length. It makes it hard for people to read if they have to keep moving their eyes LOL! Cheers Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Friday Afternoon Funny
Of course James, I know that for sure, just thought it was a funny way of putting it.. the paragraph is under 500px wide anyway I've tried to read without moving my eyes and its pretty hard.. ;) Chris On Fri, 2004-02-13 at 17:23, James Ellis wrote: Hi Chris This is an important point they have raised - they are looking at peripheral vision. We see a circle of about 6cm on screen in one go - anything larger we have to move our eyes to take in more. This is why newspapers tend to be in columns etc etc. The Zed man has some good writeups on how ~430px (whats the em?) is about the right line length - @ alistapart although where it is I don't know as the search function has disappeared from that site. Cheers James Chris Blown wrote: Thought I'd share this one with everyone, we received a list of corrections today from one of our clients, and we found a particularly humorous snippet. This correction was given in relation to paragraph line length. It makes it hard for people to read if they have to keep moving their eyes LOL! Cheers Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] W3C Recommendations RDF OWL
The World Wide Web Consortium has released twelve RDF and OWL documents as W3C Recommendations, marking the emergence of the Semantic Web as a broad-based, commercial-grade platform for data on the Web. http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2004-02-10-a.html http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-syntax-grammar-20040210/ Regards Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] code for a form
If you need something quick then http://www.hotscripts.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?bool=ANDquery=contact+formcatid=all On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 18:02, Universal Head wrote: I don't know if this is on-topic or not, but can anyone direct me to a simple way of creating a form that has a few fields that then go into an email that is sent off to a recipient? ... Or should I just admit there's only so far I can go as a designer and find a programmer to do this bit? Cheers Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] RE: Opening pages in new windows... [We're done here] [OT]
Hey Also if I may take this opportunity to mention that I view this mailing list in threaded mode in my mail client (evolution) which is great, making it easy to follow a discussion. Changing the subject to create a new topic has the same effect on my client as it does on the archive list. Cheers Chris Blown A bit of protocol. Might be best to start a new thread (and paste in any quotes) rather than changing the subject if changing the topic completely. Makes it easier for people that view the list via threads on mail-archive.com. Much of the recent discussion under the heading Opening pages in new windows... has been off this topic. As you can see on http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/ changing the subject on a reply doesn't change the parent thread. (Note: at the moment it seems to have stalled on 6-Feb.. I'm hoping it'll catch up at some stage). ListDad * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Strange IE5 Mac rendering
Mark
Maybe try adding
#textContent p {
width: 450px;
margin-right: 0;
color: #564370;
margin-top: 1em;
}
Cheers
Chris Blown
On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 18:46, Mark Stanton wrote:
Hi All
Just a quick one that only seems to affect IE5/MAC:
http://www.basketsgalore.com.au
http://www.basketsgalore.com.au/lib/styles.css
The first paragraph shoots way off the page - any ideas?
One other note - I just tried to validate this on the W3C validator and it looks
like the DNS has not come across to our server yet (brand new site). If you get a
directory listing don't worry about.
Cheers
Mark
--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com
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Re: [WSG] Some more links...
Not being that Mac savy, I assume it's possible to have both v1.0 and v1.2 installed on the same machine? Safari 1.2 is out for mac-heads: http://www.apple.com/safari/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Flowchart using CSS
Hey How would one markup a simple flowchart using xhtml / css? A few ul? Hardest part is how to do the connecting lines.. Any ideas? Cheers Chris Blown * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] centering block in IE5 problem
this?
#box {
position : absolute;
left : 50%;
width: 120px ;
margin-left : -60px; /* Half box width */
}
Chris
PS...
Does anyone have an idea about how to do this with a absolutely
positioned box? - I can't work it out... me stupid.
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Re: [WSG] Background PNGs in IE/Win?
Just for the record... I wouldn't recommend using this, but it does work. This is totally a DirectX hack and only works in Windows IE. filter:progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='images/image.png',sizingMethod='scale'); Regards Chris Blown PS. I am not totally against CSS extensions, but they should be done it the correct way, like -moz-opacity : 0.5; On Fri, 2004-01-30 at 06:42, Anton Andreasson wrote: Anyone knows of the support for background (24bit) PNGs in IE/Win? I've seen PNGs show up with a gray box around it, but does this apply when using them in background-image: as well? TIA, /Anton * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Real world use of standards
Clients need to be informed of the benefits of standards and most will see the value right away. However compromises on design and functionality can offset the benefits quite quickly. The old saying The customers always right seems to fit here. Government departments are _mostly_ aware of standards especially the accessibility guidelines, so they push for standards compliant sites. It may eventually become mandatory for Governments. In house here its becoming more important, some are more passionate about it than others. It is frustrating when work travels up the work flow and someone decides to bung in invalid markup, or maybe a particular application framework doesn't yet support the markup correctly. If IE wasn't such a pain, then standards are really a no brainer, write once works everywhere, hmmm one day.. soon I hope.. Cheers Chris Blown On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 11:06, Bradley Wright wrote: I have a question for you all, given that quite a few of you work for large, CMS-type companies and the collective level of experience here is seemingly very large: How many of you have experienced working for companies/clients which actively embrace the standards and protocols/working methods we discuss here every day? It seems to me that very often dealing with clients and client needs makes using standards to the fullest an impractical thing at best. I'd like to know how many of you have experienced work-places where standards are extremely important, and not just an afterthought in the production process. This is perhaps a little off-topic, but I think it's worth a discussion because the PRACTICAL, real-world use of standards is surely of utmost importance to us all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Floats of the Fluid and Fixed kind
Thanks Tonico
Looks great.
Cheers
Chris Blown
A few months ago I need to do this for a project. It was one of my first
pure CSS layouts. It's done with positioning not floats.
The abstract HTML:
div id=min-heightnbsp;/div
divContent/div
div id=footerFooter/div
CSS:
#min-height {
width: 3px;
height: 100%;
float: right;
margin-bottom: -112px;
overflow: hidden;
}
#footer {
/* ... */
clear: both;
height: 112px;
}
You can see it live at
http://www.lentos.at/
http://www.lentos.at/screen.css
I works in IE5+ (Win and Mac) Mozilla1+ and Opera7 (in quirksmode).
PPK has written an interesting article about 100% height:
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/100percheight.html
Footer Demo:
http://scott.sauyet.name/CSS/Demo/FooterDemo2.html
HTH
Tonico
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[WSG] Image Replacement Methods
Hey There are quite a few sites around that cover these already, but I did as a bit of a learning experiment. http://hinterlands.hcit/testing/css_image_replacement.html Cheers ChrisB More : http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Image Replacement Methods
Um, yeah... sorry guys... /* feeling silly */ http://www.hinterlands.com.au/testing/css_image_replacement.html @Russ : Did you correct the URL by hand? ChrisB On Tue, 2004-01-27 at 14:48, Mark Stanton wrote: Hey Chris Can you double check that URL - looks broken. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] more usable forms
I was quite surprised when I first saw the way that some Mac browsers highlight focused inputs with a light blue border. If only :focus was better supported by IE. and PNG's and.. and.. ChrisB On Fri, 2004-01-23 at 13:42, Mark Stanton wrote: Nice article on making forms a bit nicer. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1273 Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] More browser share stats..
http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox26.html I always doubt the accuracy of these stats, since various browsers default their user_agent to IE6. Anyway, no surprises, IE still holds the crown... ChrisB * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point
Yes, I get the same with Firebird under Linux, though gtk1/2 support is much better than it once was. Is Camino still in development? Its uses native widgets, doesn't it? ChrisB It's also for this very same reason that I dislike what Mozilla does with form widgets, which (at least on Mac OS 9 OS X) differ dramatically from the rest of the OS. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!
This may be a caching issue. I tried it here and its OK on IE v6 ChrisB On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 13:38, stuart wrote: Received and e-mail today regarding the unexpected crashing of this page *still* http://www.weddingphotography.com.au/prices/index.htm * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] [OT] Just an opinion - no offense intended
I understand where you are coming from Taco. This sort of feeling is not uncommon for mailing lists and forums that cover potentially complex subject matter. The fear of being flamed is usually unwarranted though. People are subscribed to this list to learn, help out and generally promote web standards. If you receive a hard line, its probably just a simple case of that person being passionate about web standards. I think most people here would frown on anyone who flamed a newcomer. ChrisB It has nothing to do with today, I felt like this for a while now, just decided to write about it today. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
