Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
How do you legally distinguish standards-compliant from non-compliant anyway? IE is clearly the worst of the bunch, but I'm not aware of a browser that doesn't have any rendering bugs. Would the requirement be be at least as compliant as opera? And if so, how do you measure that? Acid2? Number of CSS selectors understood? And which standard? IE renders HTML 3.2 pretty well, if not perfectly, 4.01 like crap, and XHTML (as xml) not at all. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Site check
Can the more obsessive compulsive members of the group check our new site for problems please? :) http://www.trademarkads.com At least Felix et. al. will be happy that I didn't specify a font size on body. - Problems I've already found - 1) Contrast problem on the logo text 2) Huge download size, but I doubt we'll fix that. At least it's usable before images or flash finish loading. 3) Nav text isn't resizeable, but my coworkers insist on that font since the newest versions of IE and Opera have zoom, as will the next version of FF. I disagree but lost the vote. 4) Visual captcha that doesn't have an audio version... alas my higher-ups don't think it's worth paying for a good captcha. Maybe they have a good point that the visually impaired don't tend to purchase visual advertising. Still, it makes me cringe every time I see it. 5) The galleries... umm... I'm working on those. Even I have accessibility problems using them. If anyone has suggestions on how they should behave to make them more usable, pleeease tell me. At least they're usable with javascript disabled, but very ugly. TIA *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] POSH article question
Tom said: pLets make this word bvisually/b called out/p But that would be a pain to maintain. Consider this: pMybStyled/bCompanyName is a really good company.../p ... pWe offer bwebsite optimization/b services.../p You want the b in the company name to be red because that's how your company's name is styled. You also want the b in the second paragraph styled red, but for a different reason. A few months later, you change your mind and want the company name to be styled with blue. If you had them both classed with the reason you wanted them red, you'd only have to change the stylesheet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Element suggestion requested
Maybe they are a 'list' of values, and a ul/li would be best. Yup. It's a list of values. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] 1to1 markup suggestions
I've always seen a definition list as a simpler way of representing any 2-column table with implied column headers of term and definition or property and value. So according to me (and i AM perfect after all), both would be correct. A definition list would be simpler, and a table would give you more flexibility, but both would be correct. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Markup for Poetry?
Are there any discussions or examples on strategies for marking up and styling poetry? If you're simply looking for line breaks where they belong, use br/ [1]. If you're including poems where whitespace plays a bigger role[2], use pre. [1] until xhtml2, with its l element (which i reallly hope gets renamed) [2] e.e cummings, dylan thomas, etc. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] site check - almost ready for prime time
I would appreciate it if you guys could check it out for any errors or wrong practices Most/every page has two h1's, and there should only be one per page. Ideally, you should keep the h1 for the page title, but not for the site title. Your cites should probably not be in their own paragraphs if the cite can be styled directly. Other than that, looks great. Some may also say that having a splash screen page (a page with no other navigation other than enter) is a bad practice, but I think that's more a matter of personal preference. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Let's take your example to the next level, what if the person who decided to remove the Age column thinks there is no need for Position either, she'd want to keep just the name, would you keep the table? Then there would only be one coordinate, and I think a 1-dimensional table -is- a list. Not that I just think it should be marked up as one, but I think that's the defining characteristic of a list (in web semantics and elsewhere). As such, it still -could- be marked up as a table, but I think a 1-dimensional table and a list are semantically equivalent. I suppose I look at a table as a series of lists that are related to one another. And once you get two related lists, along comes the need to show how those lists are related, which is what all the descendant elements of tables are designed to do, and which definition lists don't provide. More seriously, in my opinion yes, it would stop being tabular data because then the top row for the headers becomes useless. Look at it this way: if that (two column) table was linearized, its content would still make sense. I disagree. What if instead of taking out age, we took out position? Then we'd have: John Smith 20 Jane Doe 23 Is that number their age? Their rank in sales numbers? The number of years they've worked for the company? You'd need to work around what you're missing from tables with something like In the following list, each name is followed by the age of the person. And if you're going to do that, why not do it for three or four columns as well? But for me, tabular data is data that *need* x and y reference to make sense. And 2 column tables do need it to make sense, unless the relation between the two columns is described elsewhere. A table allows you do describe the relationship between the two lists within the data structure. And I think the semantics of an element should be described by that element, not by some random sibling element. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this is this: You have a 3 column table: NamePosition Age John SmithPresident 70 Jane Doe CFO 65 And after filling up this table, someone decides, you know, having the age in there is really pretty pointless, so they remove that column from the table. Does/should this make it stop being tabular data? Finally, something I disagree with Thierry on! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think it could either be a table or a definition list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE
To improve the look of it for the client I have added some javascript which hides the buttons and uses onclick events on the labels so that the submit button doesn't need to be clicked. I've done something somewhat similar recently, and found this was finally an excuse to use the noscript element. Try sticking your submit button inside a noscript instead of hiding it with javascript. Worth a try. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] noscript
Best practice would be to avoid noscript where at all possible. Start by assuming that the user does not have JavaScript enabled, so that the simple version is part of the content, then use JavaScript to hide or modify this to show your enhanced version. I'm curious if you'd (both singular and plural) be against my recent use of noscript. I have a web app that has a toolbar across the top. While editing information using this app, the toolbar contains Save and Cancel buttons. However, the form is below the toolbar. I have unobtrusive javascript use DOM to create the Save button, and then at the bottom of the form, i have a normal submit button inside a noscript. So if javascript is enabled, you get the Save button in the toolbar where it would be expected, and if not, it gracefully degrades to having a standard submit button in the form. I figured this would be the most accessible option The only other option I could think of would be to use DOM to remove the normal submit button when the Save button is created, but would there be any benefit to doing that over using noscript? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Content negotiated links: why so bad?
The webmaster I'm talking to is responsible for URLs that end like this *.cfm?doc_id=n ... and thinks it's perfectly acceptable In that case, the webmaster is making dynamically generated pages. URLs that end like that are necessary, because they're used to pass variables to the page. The other option is to use post to pass the variables, which could cause annoyance when refreshing or using back/forward. Beyond that, any way to get rid of the ?doc_id=n and such at the ends of the URLs would require an entire rewriting of the backend, or maybe even getting rid of the backend all together and writing every page as static html. Which likely isn't worth it just to get easier URLs. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] transparent background of png
but when I view this using a laptop the transparent background is blue. You must be using IE6 on the laptop Is there something I am doing wrong? Not unless you're a microsoft employee If not what are my other options to make this work in all browsers and viewing devices? You can feed MS proprietary filters to IE. http://www.bioneural.net/2006/08/09/valid-fix-for-png-transparency-on-a-single-image/ is the first thing i found, but a search for transparent png ie should turn up plenty of workarounds. I use a php solution that automatically converts all of my img elements that contain pngs into MS's proprietary stuff if IE is the browser, but I cant find it at the moment. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title
!ELEMENT FIELDSET - - (#PCDATA,LEGEND,(%flow;)*) -- form control group -- Looks like it's required to me and it's the same in both Strict and Transitional DTDs. I'm looking at the XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD right now and I see: !ELEMENT fieldset (#PCDATA | legend | %block; | form | %inline; | %misc;)* I know it was required in HTML 4.01, but it looks optional in XHTML. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display:Table
I'd say it's technically correct, as they'd simply be displayed as a table without changing the semantics... but I'd feel dirty using them like that. I'd feel like it was a hack. I'd much rather keep doing things as I do now until CSS's multi-collumns get finished and supported. Imagine that all display values are supported by all browsers as of midnight tonight. Do you think that using display:table and display:table-cell to create multi-column layouts is correct or incorrect - and why? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Display:Table
Display:table isn't any dirtier than float:left. I never said it was a rational feeling. ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Site Template Review
This is the only time I've ever seen a form inside a fieldset, instead of the other way around. I can't even find an example of it that way at w3.org. I know it's valid, but are there any drawbacks to doing it this way? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] missing menu: rendering bug in Firefox?
but Firefox (only in windows, curiously) is the only browser that refuses to acknowledge its presence there. Works fine for me on FF1.5/WinXP. Are you using 1.5 of 1.0x? Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8) Gecko/2005 Firefox/1.5 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
Most common uses of br/ can and should be replaced by CSS, as they're presentational. Some examples of semantic use of br/ are to seperate lines of a poem, lines of an address, etc. In these cases (especially poems), the line break is important to the content itself, not just how you would like it to be displayed. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] br the correct use.
is it recomended outside p-tags for extra lineshifts? This is best done by adding margins or padding to the paragraphs. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] XHTML 1.1 Entities (WAS Claiming compliance when a site doesn't comply)
Patrick said: and once you go from XHTML 1.0 strict to 1.1 (yes, yes, changing mime type and all that) there are a few more things to look out for ... not being allowed any character entities apart from the basic amp; lt; gt; quot; and apo; - so things like copy; for instance will not be valid). Are you sure? The XHTML 1.1 DTD (1) includes (and requires) the Modular Framework Module (2). This module includes the XHTML Character Entities Module (3), which includes three entity files: XML-compatible ISO Latin 1 (4), ISO Math Greek and Symbolic (5), and XML-compatible ISO Special (6). These entity files contain everything from aacute; to zwnj;, including copy;. Of course it's very possible that I'm completely missing something. 1) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/xhtml11_dtd.html 2) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-framework-1.mod 3) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-charent-1.mod 4) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-lat1.ent 5) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-symbol.ent 6) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-special.ent ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox 1.0.x rogue PNG background line
Looks fine for me on FF 1.5/win. Not sure about 1.0.x. Could it be the beloved gap below images because of default vertical-align being baseline problem? Probably not since it works in 1.5, but worth a shot if you havent tried it. Try setting the image's vertical-align to bottom. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.1 Entities (WAS Claiming compliance when a site doesn't comply)
List of XHTML 1.1 entities, served as application/xhtml+xml : http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/xhtml/entities/entities-11.xhtml I really hope I'm right, or I'm gonna have to go back to a lot of sites to fix a lot of ldquo;s and such. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Wish-list for 2006
1) MS donates IE to MoFo, who then discontinue it instantly 2) Opera goes open source 3) Executives of Sony BMG and RIAA do jail time for racketeering 4) All remaining browsers fully support XHTML 2.0 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Syllabus: Site Critique
The only problem I see in IE6/Win is very minor. The top margin/padding that it has in other browsers doesn't show up in IE6/Win, so the logo butts up against the very top of the page. One other minor thing (in all browsers I tested) is a very noticable flashing on the first time I hover one of the nav links. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)
With larger text sizes, your sidebar headings become white on white. I'd suggest vertically expanding that background image, or setting a similar background color along with the image. That and a few things like empty paragraph elements and stray /div on some of the pages. Last (and probably least), a future-proofing warning: If you ever decide to serve that site as xhtml instead of text/html, it'll break because of the content of your style elements. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check Please (Clattco)
Last (and probably least), a future-proofing warning: If you ever decide to serve that site as xhtml instead of text/html, it'll break because of the content of your style elements. Nevermind, it might not. I've become so paranoid that I tend to enclose any non-xml/html in cdata's because I serve as xml, but in your case, I don't think it'd break. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
The best web standards thing I found this year was this mailing list. You guys are great! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the kind of assignment that makes you want to scream
i like tabs as much as anybody else, but when it's _that_ bad, it's time to move them from the top to the side. wouldn't look nearly as bad as a vertical nav, and wouldnt have the flyouts covering 50% of the remaining nav ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
A desperate attempt to simplify: CSS Driven: No presentational markup, no semantic markup used improperly for presentational purposes. CSS handles all presentation. Not CSS Driven: Lots of presentational markup, but CSS for font sizes and colors. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
Having a validating vs non-validating site doesn't make much of a difference in accessibility, as long as the errors are minor. What -does- make a huge difference is semantic vs non-semantic. Having a list marked up as a list but missing a /li (in a DTD that requires it) it still much much more accessible than a list marked up as a two-column table with a ton on font tags. I've seen plenty of perfectly validating XHTML websites that completely ignore semantics, and in my opinion they're wasting their time. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
so why not use a Javascript solution? As a horrible understatement, because I'm not very good at javascript ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is this a tabular data?
I agree with Jachin. The most semantic way of doing it would be: dl dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd /dl ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is this a tabular data?
Ok, I was basing my last post on the pdf. Things change a bit if you're throwing in a list of posts and stuff. I agree with Jachin. The most semantic way of doing it would be: dl dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd dtimg src=icon.gif /Name/dt ddInfo/dd /dl ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
I would be concerned about a bug only showing up in Firefox, I believe that hiding something from Firefox is not the way to go, but rather, make it right in Firefox and then worry about the others. Usually I'd agree. But in this case, that won't work. :( ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Noob question... CSS padding on tables
I guess just apply the rule to td and th too. table, th, td {padding: 1em;} ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?
I'm also not sure how browsers are supposed to handle a non-repeating animated gif as on-hover background, so I don't know what's correct behavior here. I'm not sure what the correct way is either, but regardless, I don't code to firefox or any other browser first. I code to standards first. Then I work around bugs. And while firefox is much better than IE, it still has its own unique bugs. So back to the original question, is there any way to serve a rule only to firefox (or only to non-firefox) without invalidating the css? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text within tables
THCategory/TH - for it to be semantically correct, should it be wrapped in P tags? It's hardly a paragraph and contains no other inline elements. Nope, no P tags. But if I were to use - e.g. THSelect a bcategory/b./TH - then I imagine P tags would make sense. I'd still leave out the p tags, since it's not a paragraph, just a sentence. Nothing wrong with having an inline element inside a th. If you feel funny using th as the only container, then i suppose you could wrap its contents in a div, but it's not necessary. What I'm really asking is what, from an accessibility poont of view, is the XHTML strict markup for this? XHTML 1.0 Strict and above is all I know, so that's what I'm basing my views on. The side effect of only knowing strict XHTML is that your capital tags and bold elements make me cringe. ;) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Is there a standard for this?
This isn't the usual type of question asked here, but it's very much a web standards question, so here goes. Take the following situation: An anchor element has a short, non-repeating animated gif as its background. On hover, that link's background is changed to a different image. Someone lets the page load, and allows that animated gif to play through to it's last frame. They then hover over the link, changing its background image. They move the mouse away from the link. Is there a standard anywhere that specifies what happens at this point? Should the animation start over, or should it go back to the last frame? In IE and Opera, it starts over. In Firefox, it skips to the last frame. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Firefox filter?
Believe it or not, part of my site works on every browser I've tested -except- firefox. That's right. It works on IE, Opera, etc, but Firefox screws it up. Is there any valid way make firefox (well, gecko in general) ignore a rule, while still serving it to all other browsers? The only method I can find is this: selector { { declaration } which obviously invalidates the css. Incase anyone's curious, the problem involves using a non-repeating animated gif as the background of a link, and a different non-repeating animated gif as the background when that link is hovered. I'm using it to make a bullet slide toward the link on hover, and slide back away from it on blur. After one link is hovered for the first time, every hover after that causes it to skip from the first frame to the last, then back to the first, ignoring all frames in-between. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text within tables
The content of a table cell should only be in a paragraph element if the content of that cell is a paragraph. Should be a simple enough question but should text within a table cell ALWAYS be surrounded by P tags, or do we assume the TD to be the block element surrounding the inline text? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List item overlap
add line-height: 2em; to you #navigation_main li, #navigation_sub li rule ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Probably because you're using br and not br /. My guess is, it's waiting for a /br and assuming the content after the first br should somehow be contained within it. Replace your brs with br / and see if that fixes it. Can anyone see why the br / is causing the content to drop down below the adjacent floated div in the page http://afterlifelink.com.au/charges/index.cfm? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Because that is what you tell it to do. At the bottom of http://afterlifelink.com.au/css/formstyles.css Ok, maybe I should have looked at the css ;) but still, replace those brs with br /s if you're gonna call it xhtml in the doctype :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Very strange IE glitch :(
After a few days, I've almost given up on working around this bug in IE. I've never seen it before, but hopefully one of you has: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/newsite/bug.html Short version: IE doesnt draw certain background colors/borders. But draws them if you move another window over, then away from them vertically. It's insane. Check it out. I tried removing all transparent background declarations and all background images, and it still did it. So I put them back. Please help? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)
semi-related: your main site (fastwrite.com) scrolls horizontally forever in firefox ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!
Lynx is text-only in the really old computer sense of the word. It can't display italics, only different text colors and background colors. This isn't a problem though. Displaying blockquotes as indented italics is just a popular way for graphical browsers to display them by default. It's not required or anything. If having your blockquotes in italics is important for the way you want your site to look, I recommend specifying that in your CSS. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS validator updated?
The CSS validator has a few new bugs mentioned recently on here. It's throwing errors where it shouldn't be, like on some integers that don't have .0 after them. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] check website
A few suggestions: 1) The site could fit at 800x600, but the fixed margins make it too large. 2) Consider using text with background images for the menu and footer, instead of images of text. This would reduce file size and make the site useable by people who can't or won't view images. If that isn't an option, at least provide alt attributes for the images that contain text. 3) I'd recommend replacing multiple br / tags with margins or padding. 4) You have more than one element with the ID cent. Use classes instead, and your site will validate. 5) Use headings such as h1 and h2 instead of symantically empty elements such as div id=header ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox rendering issue
Try sticking something (a comment or whatever) inside your div id=postpreview/div There used to be a bug where Gecko wouldn't attempt to render empty divs. If it hasn't been fixed, it might be the problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] label for=
I'd do:fieldset legendTime/legend label for=""> Hour select id=hour option01/option option02/option option03/option ... /select /label label for=""> Minute select id=hour option01/option option02/option option03/option ... /select /label .../fieldsetNot sure if it's some kind of officially recommended practice, it's just my opinion.
Re: [WSG] the struggle to get valid
I don't know how many times I have to tell the other programmers. If you are going to use 25 br tags in a paragraph, you've got to close them! How are we ever going to pass XHTML standards? +5 mod points, funny karma. wait. wrong place. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
Ted had mentioned the example of navigation that is fully expressed as a list today may instead contain a list and other elements tomorrow (or conversely, on some pages it is only a list, on others it is a list plus headings, but on all pages it is the same navigation, etc.). But at what point does it become too much? Wrapping the sidebar in a div for those reasons may seem OK. But then why not wrap each list item in a div too, incase it needs two background images in the future? To me, divs that aren't actively and logically grouping items together (usually with a header, see section), are presentational elements*, as their only purpose is for applying style. I'm also unlikely to give up my habit of trying to slim things down to the final ounce possible. Good to know I'm not alone. * I know technically they're not presentational elements, so no point in arguing with me if you disagree.
Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes???
There's only one way I can think of making it work in IE: Use PHP to copy the external page to a local files(s), and use object to load it. IE doesn't seem to have a problem with local html files. Not sure about scripting support for it tho. This is the only situation when I don't use XHTML. Good luck. hehe
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
This is called the web standards group. I imagine that those here essentially adhere to the value of web standards, and discuss things in this context. And we are.Where in the standard does it say we are not *allowed* to use even one table for layout? Tables should not be used to position elements graphically. Tables used in this way, known as layout tables, do not observe the implication of tabular data inherent in the term table, and can create particular accessibility problems as described in the techniques that follow. Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables Unless of course you would argue the difference between should not and not allowed, in which case I guess you would win. From the get go the tables for layout approach was a hack Call it a hack if you like.CSS layouts are usually full of them too. Atleast then it's presentational hacks in the presentational layer.
Re: [WSG] td != div
Good topic. I'm going to re-think the whole approach on this project. My work here is done. Now I can go get some Krystals (eg. Whitecastles + Mustard - Holes in meat) and say to myself I might not know what I'm eating, but at least my pet peeve is silenced for the moment.
Re: [WSG] OL vs DL
I wouldn't lose any sleep over which is the most semantic way, as it can get fairly academic... But that's why I love this list. Even the smallest things get academic very quickly here. To get to the semantic root of it, ask yourself Does each subitem function as a definition of its parent? If so, it's a list of definitions (dl): dl dtFidelity/dd dd.../dd dd.../dd dtPoliteness/dt dd.../dd /dl If not, and the subitems are their own concepts, but are all related to the parent, use nested lists. In my opinion, it looks like the subitems are definitions of their parents. But then again, I don't know a thing about Bushido.
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works.
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. That instructor has no business teaching web dev, as good instructors continue their education after finding a job, and that one seems to have stopped learning new things 6 years ago. Sorry. Venting. Annoying client. *sigh*
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Does anyone agree that we are abusing the use of CSS (square pegs in round holes?) with the way we force it to do things that it perhaps was not really designed for? Maybe to an extent, but not nearly as much as using tables for layout is abusing tables. They were never meant to be used as layout, or even for presentation. They were created for tabular data. At least in CSS, we're abusing a presentational language for presentational purposes. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. I disagree. The web is an information medium. The most common way to access that information is through a graphical "web browser". A visual medium used to "browse" the information made available on the web (information medium). I rarely use a traditional, graphical web browser anymore. I have my computer read my RSS feeds and email aloud to me while I work and play games. I test pages I make in graphical browsers, and post flamebait as anonymous coward on Slashdot. That's about it. For those of you who use a background image, how do you get round the problem of the columns changing size? I hope you are not using a fixed width layout (as many CSS column layouts do)! ;-) *clicks my heels together three times and says "Column support in CSS3? Column support in CSS3?"* Final point I want to know is, in what way does a table (a simple 1 row 2 column table) actually cause any of the above problems you mention? How does it hinder someone from viewing it on a different device for example? How is it harder to update? I am not talking about multiple nested tables. Accessibility isn't just for blind people. It's also for the most disabled users of all: computers. Ever try to teach an HTML parsing script how to tell the difference between a table of data and a layout table? If people would just use semantic markup, it'd be as simple as "It's in a table element? Must be tabular data. It's in a p element? Must be a paragraph."
[WSG] td != div
In most of the previous table layout vs css layout arguments I've seen on here, people refer to divs vs tables. Now, I never learned table based layouts, and don't understand them (spacer gifs, etc). Because of this, I don't/can't think along the lines of I'm replacing tables with divs. But many of the XHTML/CSS sites I see clearly do. For instance, they'll put a ul inside a div id=menu, just so that they can style the ul, instead of just giving the ul itself an id. Or put the contents of a paragraph inside a span id=p1 instead of giving the paragraph itself an id of p1. The only time divs don't make me cringe is when they're used to enclose a group of elements with the header that applies to them, and this purpose of divs is being replaced with section. I know that divs are more semantically neutral than tables, but is wrapping an element in 5 divs and a span really that much better than wrapping it in a table? Hopefully this will start a debate that I can learn something from, since I have a limited background in tables.
Re: [WSG] td != div
what are you hoping to learn about? I don't have a clue. But in my experience, every time I've asked a debate-causing question on here, it's gone off on 50 tangents and I've learned a lot. *evil grin*
Re: [WSG] td != div
PS: How did you manage to avoid table layouts Lucky boy! I'm only 21, and didn't start doing commercial sites until recently. Before there was wide browser support for CSS, I was just doing web design as a hobby, and didn't really care if a single browser in the world displayed it correctly.
Re: [WSG] td != div
The most obvious one I can think of is the need for two background images. Sometimes this is the case, but often times it can be avoided with a little creativity, such as using a background image on the ul, and classing the first and last li to give them more height and different background images (good for vertical nav bars). But still, I guess sometimes it's necessary if the design isn't negotiable.
Re: [WSG] braindead - iframes???
Objects of type text/html (or application/xhtml+xml) are what I use. But good luck getting them to work in IE. In my experience, IE will only do it if it's a local (x)html file.
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
As far as I know, background images are still the only way. It's probably possible with _javascript_, but even if it is, I wouldn't want to put presentation in the behavioral layer. CSS should really really get some vertical formatting, and soon.Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a better way of doing it?
Re: [WSG] Designing for printing
Should I be trying to accommodate A5 printouts, or smaller printouts than the norm, and if so in what way? Ideally, yes, and by not using fixed widths. Otherwise, no, because it'd be way too much work. :-P
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index.html http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style.css At the moment this is displayed using a table. What would be the best way to display this without using tables, i.e. with a couple of divs for each image and text pair?
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
Seems the list filtered out my last response (probably thought it was spam) so this time I'll include text along with the links. Is this what you want?: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index.html and the css: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style.css
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
In that case: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index2.html style: http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style2.css
Re: [WSG] How do I combat extra padding?
I just tested out Bert's solution, and it works. Set vertical align of the images to bottom. Very nice to know, thanks Bert. :)
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
easiest (and as far as i know, the only non-proprietay way) of doing it is to use a non-repeating background image on the li instead of a bullet, and control the spacing from it with padding.
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
you can have negative margins, but not negative padding. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/box.html#padding-properties Use padding example: ul li {padding-left: 5px;} that should helpcan use negative amounts
Re: [WSG] Controlling the li gap?
1) remove the bullet with list-style: none 2) create an image of a bullet 3) set that image as the background image (non-repeating) of the li 4) adjust left padding of the li to set distance from the fake bullet
Re: [WSG] absolute positioning in IE
Make sure the page validates. IE should render that fine unless it's in quirks mode. If it validates and still doesnt work, post a link and I'll have a look.
Re: [WSG] Screen Resolution for Fluid Layouts
Therefore I'm very curious as to what the general concensus is from my fellow standards advocates when designing sites using liguid layouts? Truely liquid layouts will look fine at any resolution. Your examples are not liquid layouts. Your first and last examples use fixed widths, and the middle one uses *cringe* tables for layout. If you must use fixed widths, you just have to decide what resolution you want your site to look best in, and wish luck to the rest. If you have a liquid layout, the question of best resolution doesn't apply. But I'm sure there will be plenty of replies to come that give you an easier answer, such as 800x600 is best.
Re: [WSG] my head is sore
The only problem I see in IE (IE6/Win) is that the sidebar's unordered list isn't lined up correctly. That's because IE uses margins to indent lists by default, and gecko uses padding. And you specified margin: 0 for the list, which removed the indent in IE. I recommend setting the padding to 0 in your #sidebar ul rule, then setting the left margin of it to whatever you want the indentation to be. Are you seeing more severe problems, or did you already fix them?
Re: [WSG] Center aligning links with a specified height
Try keeping them inline, and setting line-height to 40px. As long as word-wrap doesn't become a factor, that should work fine. But since you're using pixels, I'm guessing word-wrap would already cause problems anyway.
Re: [WSG] Center aligning links with a specified height
I got it working in firefox and almost in IE/Win (height is way bigger than it's supposed to be in IE) by changing the li a in Nick's example to: li a { background: #eee; display: inline-block ; /*height: 50px;*/ line-height: 50px; font-size: 14px; padding: 17px 20px; } Now, keep in mind as soon as someone resizes the text, it won't work anymore. So I'd keep looking, even if you fix it in IE. But maybe it's a step in the right direction? I stopped trying to make stuff work in IE when it started to give me ulcers and gray hairs (and I'm only 21). Good luck.
Re: [WSG] Two columns, one fluid one fixed?
yup, the only way to have something floated and still have it be fluid is to specify a % width. but then the other column can't be fixed width. so. can't be done. (i'll gladly welcome being corrected) why do you have to keep the float on there?
Re: [WSG] IE Madness
Works fine for me in IE6/WinXP/SP2. Normally, I'd recommend you uninstall and reinstall your browser... but wait... it's IE, and I doubt you want to reformat. *evil grin*
Re: [WSG] iframes
If you're using the iFrame to pull an external site into a box in your own site, I've been using object for that. But I'm not sure on the cross-browser status on that.
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
If the books are mentioned in a sentence, such as In the dead sea scrolls, someone said foo, then I agree completely with using cite. pIn citethe dead sea scrolls/cite someone said qfoo/q/p or whatever. One problem with many examples (including mine) of cite is that they always are paired with a quote, but this absolutely does not have to be the case. although there was a thread earlier in the yearadvocating cite I think
Re: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
Tape a 30 secondconversation between a husband and a wife, and there are no headers or pages.It's a different ball game.Almost all forms of communication begin as structured content in the form of thoughts. You mentally structure what you want to say into sentences, you want parts of those sentences to be emphasized, etc. Then, depending on the medium you want to present those thoughts in (speech, literature, etc), you convert those abstract concepts into things like inflection and pauses for speech, and periods and italics for literature. In my understanding, XHTML/XML is a way of recording that pure structured information before limiting it to the constraints of a specific medium. It is not to record that information after it has been constrained to speech. Also, grouping headers with pages is flawed logic. Headers have a semantic meaning, while pages are, once again, a constraint of certain presentation mediums.
Re: [WSG] section and separator - formerly - Presentation or Structure?
Wow! I admit that my presentation vs structure thread was an attempt to get the pros out of the woodwork, as mentioned in a thread earlier this week, but a spin-off thread? I should start debates more often! ;-)
Re: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
If breaking the formula up into little chunks makescomprehension harder for the vast majority of people then we should not do it and I do not agree with your assertion that breaking a complexformula will make it more understandable - it may in fact undermine thelearning.Breaking content up into little chunks doesn't in any way change the content itself, and is therefore not dumbing it down. If it somehow makes comprehension harder for any users, it is a serious flaw in the user agent.
[WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
Am I alone in feeling that hr should be depreciated in favor of CSS borders? Especially with section in the XHTML 2.0 drafts, what semantic or even structural value does hr have? Every argument for its retention that I've heard so far has been presentation related. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] problems with aligning of thumbnails
It may be because your img elements in the gallery section aren't closed, and you're using strict XHTML. Try changing the imgs to img /s and see if that fixes anything. On 7/6/05, Bruce Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am *trying* to get my thumbnail images to align center to their respective backgrounds and also to change border color on mouseover and I am not able to accomplish either one at the moment. The page in question is http://inspired-evolution.com/Graphics.php and CSS can be found at http://inspired-evolution.com/Gilbert.css pertinent CSS is: dl.gallery { border: 1px solid #33; background-color: #b0c4de; width: 175px; float:left; text-align:center; margin-left:3em; } .gallery dt { font-weight: bold; font-color:#66;padding:0; margin:0} .gallery dt img { border: 1px solid #66; width: 144px; height: 144px; } .gallery dt img.ams { border: 1px solid #66; width: 144px; height: 79px; } .gallery dt img a:link { border: 1px solid #66; } .gallery dt img a:visited { border: 1px solid #66; } .gallery dt img a:hover { border: 2px solid #33; } .gallery dt img a:active { border: 1px solid #33; } .gallery dd { margin: 0; padding: 0; } any assistance is greatly appreciative! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Complete CSS reset
Has anyone made a stylesheet that resets everything back to the way it would be if styling pure XML? If I have to, I'll go thru html.css and undo everything that it does, but if someone here has already done it, it'll save me a lot of time. I'm going to be teaching some web developers CSS soon and would like to teach it from a complete seperation of structure from presentation standpoint which is hard to do when headings are still big, blockquotes are still indented, etc. Teaching them to style XML would be the best option in my opinion but would probably scare them away from the whole concept. Giving up layout tables will be frightening enough. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Complete CSS reset
Well, this has been educational if nothing else. I figured out how to do it on every non-IE browser (insert sarcastic comment). At first I tried resetting 11 properties on *, but then realized that it was killing the entire concept of inheritance. If I set li to bold, links inside the li wouldn't inherit it, etc. So then I set those 11 properties on html, and then set the same properties on html * to inherit. Works like a charm... but not on IE. I guess IE doesn't really use a default stylesheet, and if it does, it doesn't cascade properly. If anyone's morbidly curious, it's at http://www.kennygraham.net/reset.css ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac IE hack and CSS validation
I'm not sure on the specifics of the hack you're using, but it should validate if you put a space after the *. On 7/5/05, Bruce Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have a couple of lines in my CSS targeting mac IE with: *htmlbody #wrapper_inner{ width:750px; background-color:#036; padding:0; margin:0; } the * causes to CSS to not validate due to a parsing error. Is there any way around this?? TIA! -- ::Bruce:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **