[WSG] There may be a delay before I get back to you. Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm working in the United States from Wednesday 27 April through to Friday 6 May, as part of SilverStripe's involvement at the CMS Expo in Chicago (cmsexpo.net). I will be checking email and available on my cellphone over this period, however my availability will be more limited than usual. My New Zealand mobile is switched off currently. You can reach me on this number: +1 (415) 691 5967. Also note that I'll be taking annual leave from 9 May through 31 May, returning to work in Wellington on 1 June 2011. If you have an urgent matter and can't reach me, please contact either; 1. Lee Middleton, Head of Sales and Marketing, on l...@silverstripe.com on +64 27 288 9909 2. Sam Minnee, Acting CEO, on s...@silverstripe.com or +64 21 411 311 Cheers, Sigurd Magnusson -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile (US): 415 691 5967 Mobile: (NZ): +64 21 42 12 08 (Off until 1 June 2011) Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- See us at the Chicago CMS Expo (www.cmsexpo.net) on May 2-4. Can't make it? Keep an eye on silverstripe.org/blog for news and video recordings of our sessions! -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] There may be a delay before I get back to you. Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm working in the United States from Wednesday 27 April through to Friday 6 May, as part of SilverStripe's involvement at the CMS Expo in Chicago (cmsexpo.net). I will be checking email and available on my cellphone over this period, however my availability will be more limited than usual. My New Zealand mobile is switched off currently. You can reach me on this number: +1 (415) 691 5967. Also note that I'll be taking annual leave from 9 May through 31 May, returning to work in Wellington on 1 June 2011. If you have an urgent matter and can't reach me, please contact either; 1. Lee Middleton, Head of Sales and Marketing, on l...@silverstripe.com on +64 27 288 9909 2. Sam Minnee, Acting CEO, on s...@silverstripe.com or +64 21 411 311 Cheers, Sigurd Magnusson -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile (US): 415 691 5967 Mobile: (NZ): +64 21 42 12 08 (Off until 1 June 2011) Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- See us at the Chicago CMS Expo (www.cmsexpo.net) on May 2-4. Can't make it? Keep an eye on silverstripe.org/blog for news and video recordings of our sessions! -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out of the office on annual leave over Christmas, returning to work on Monday 10 January 2011. Cheers, Sigurd. -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Did you know we just won 'Best Open Source Projecthttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-wins-an-nz-open-source-award/' and were just named the first Microsoft-Certified open source CMShttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-the-first-ever-open-source-web-app-to-become-microsoft-certified/ ? -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out of the office on annual leave over Christmas, returning to work on Monday 10 January 2011. Cheers, Sigurd. -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Did you know we just won 'Best Open Source Projecthttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-wins-an-nz-open-source-award/' and were just named the first Microsoft-Certified open source CMShttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-the-first-ever-open-source-web-app-to-become-microsoft-certified/ ? -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out of the office on annual leave over Christmas, returning to work on Monday 10 January 2011. Cheers, Sigurd. -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Did you know we just won 'Best Open Source Projecthttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-wins-an-nz-open-source-award/' and were just named the first Microsoft-Certified open source CMShttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-the-first-ever-open-source-web-app-to-become-microsoft-certified/ ? -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out of the office on annual leave over Christmas, returning to work on Monday 10 January 2011. Cheers, Sigurd. -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Did you know we just won 'Best Open Source Projecthttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-wins-an-nz-open-source-award/' and were just named the first Microsoft-Certified open source CMShttp://silverstripe.org/silverstripe-cms-the-first-ever-open-source-web-app-to-become-microsoft-certified/ ? -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out the office on annual leave, returning to work Monday morning. You may contact Lee Middleton on l...@silverstripe.com in my absence. Cheers, Sigurd. -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Like what we do? Nominate us for NZ and global open source awards at www.nzosa.org.nz and www.packtpub.com/open-source-awards-home/nominate-best-open-source-cms -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out the office today due to sick leave. You may contact Lee Middleton on l...@silverstripe.com in my absence. Cheers, Sigurd -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Like what we do? Nominate us for NZ and global open source awards at www.nzosa.org.nz and www.packtpub.com/open-source-awards-home/nominate-best-open-source-cms -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm out the office Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Please phone me on +64 21 42 12 08 if urgent, otherwise your patience is appreciated while my access to email is limited. You may also contact l...@silverstripe.com in my absence. Cheers, Sigurd -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Like what we do? Nominate us for NZ and global open source awards at www.nzosa.org.nz and www.packtpub.com/open-source-awards-home/nominate-best-open-source-cms -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Out of office Re: WSG Digest
Thanks for emailing me. I'm largely out the office Friday, Monday, and Tuesday (27-31 August). Please phone me on +64 21 42 12 08 if urgent, otherwise your patience is appreciated while my access to email is limited. Cheers, Sigurd -- Sigurd Magnusson Business Relationship Manager SilverStripe DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Mobile: +64 21 42 12 08 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson www.silverstripe.com -- Like what we do? Nominate us for NZ and global open source awards at www.nzosa.org.nz and www.packtpub.com/open-source-awards-home/nominate-best-open-source-cms -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?
Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and even then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE 6. FireFox (2), Safari (3), Chrome (latest) users are more encouraged to keep up to the latest versions, and have more aggressive update mechanisms, so we just use the bracketed versions as minimum. We have not given thought to Netscape for years. The same applies to when we're working on the administration interface of our open source SilverStripe CMS (www.silverstripe.org.) Cheers, Sig. On 15/03/2009, at 8:32 PM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:19:00 -0400 Subject: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? Hi all, I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would not work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 and later, and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a question that I could not find direct and consistent answers while searching the Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to design for, when it comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have been told from some sites, that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as well as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 6.0/later. Is this correct? -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
Can people offer examples of school websites that lead the way, for instance in terms of; - interaction between student/parent/school/community - allows students to show off work - allows students/teachers/parents/community to engage (e.g. see sports results, look up when next school theatre production is on, etc). - less important, but strong information architecture / usability / visual design. In otherwords, all the usual sort of stuff that leading private/public sector websites have, and that seems all too rare on school websites.. Sigurd PS: I'm not really looking for examples of Moodle / learning management systems; more the public-facing side. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: Text-only version
Rob, Without knowing if you place extreme important to accessibility, I would suggest shifting the budget from Betsie to furthering the usability and accessibility of your main templates; e.g. good semantic layout, separate CSS/unobtrusive JS, printable CSS, checking that a blind person with screen reader can make sense of the site, SEO, etc (not to mention compliance with which ever (X)HTML doctrine you're into!). The spirit behind what the CMS vendor is trying to do sounds completely reasonable. What little info you provide makes it easy to assume a more modern approach is possible, though. --- Sigurd Magnusson SilverStripe -- SilverStripe is the 2008 most promising open source CMS platform! http://packtpub.com/article/2008-most-promising-open-source-cms-announced -- DDI: +64 4 978 7332 Skype: sigurdmagnusson twitter.com/SigurdMagnusson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Best password strength indicator?
Am looking for an intuitive and elegant example of a password field with an strength indicator that updates as you type each character. I've seen plenty around, and off the top of my head I quite like Google's* (although I'd say it should show small amount of red graph to begin with, portraying instantly that the line is a strength indicator). * https://www.google.com/accounts/NewAccount Can anyone let me know if there's one they feel is significantly better than that? I'm keen for one that is compact. Some are over the top and make the user have to think an unnecessarily extra amount. For instance, this MSN one contains intuitive elements but is cluttered with too much instruction. https://accountservices.passport.net/reg.srf?roid=2sl=1vv=400lc=1033 Sigurd Magnusson, SilverStripe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] A Google contest for highschoolers that is very relevant to this list
We've been collaborating with Google on an extension to their successful Google Summer of Code program, producing the Google Highly Open Participation Contest. Aimed to illustrate to our next generation in the industry on the virtues of collaboration, open standards, and freedom of information, the contest has the lure of money, Google T-Shirts and grand prizes (paid trips to the Googleplex from anywhere in the world.). To get involved, students work on predetermined tasks for open source projects from now until early February, and a number of these tasks are intentionally web based, such as building widgets and skins/themes, testing a web application, or even demonstrating a project to a group of people. As an example, see the task list at; http://code.google.com/p/google-highly-open-participation-silverstripe/issues/list So far, building-a-theme tasks are slow to being taken up, despite them being very visible contributions to the project (i.e. their name will be forever attributed on their theme!). Since since these require a sound knowledge of HTML, CSS and design... hence my post on this list. So if people could let highschoolers in their midst know about the contest, that'd be awesome :) Overall info at; http://www.silverstripe.com/highschoolers-add-google-to-your-cv/ http://code.google.com/opensource/ghop/2007-8/ Siggy, SilverStripe open source web development platform *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] A Google contest for highschoolers that is very relevant to this list
We've been collaborating with Google on an extension to their successful Google Summer of Code program, producing the Google Highly Open Participation Contest. Aimed to illustrate to our next generation in the industry on the virtues of collaboration, open standards, and freedom of information, the contest has the lure of money, Google T-Shirts and grand prizes (paid trips to the Googleplex from anywhere in the world.). To get involved, students work on predetermined tasks for open source projects from now until early February, and a number of these tasks are intentionally web based, such as building widgets and skins/themes, testing a web application, or even demonstrating a project to a group of people. As an example, see the task list at; http://code.google.com/p/google-highly-open-participation-silverstripe/issues/list So far, building-a-theme tasks are slow to being taken up, despite them being very visible contributions to the project (i.e. their name will be forever attributed on their theme!). Since since these require a sound knowledge of HTML, CSS and design... hence my post on this list. So if people could let highschoolers in their midst know about the contest, that'd be awesome :) Overall info at; http://www.silverstripe.com/highschoolers-add-google-to-your-cv/ http://code.google.com/opensource/ghop/2007-8/ Siggy, SilverStripe open source web development platform *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] FF1.5 and Web Dev. T/B
Stephen Stagg wrote:
> Is it just me or does the ‘Disable Images’ option on the Web
> Developers Toolbar not work with FF1.5?
>
> Stephen
>
Yes. When I choose this option, it refreshes the page but all the images
still seem to appear.
In addition, the "view style information" (under CSS) is greyed out,
very annoying.
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Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next year?
Webstock in May 2006 is hosted at a capital city--Wellington--and you guys probably treat NZ as a state :P Its going to be absolutely amazing -- Check out http://www.Webstock.org.nz Siggy -- Cade Whitbourn wrote: I know it's early but... Anybody know of any good training courses or events that are being held in Sydney (or the other capital cities) next year on web standards/best practice web design/usability etc (other than WE06 and the regular wsg meetings?) Cheers, C a d e W h i t b o u r n Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development Australian Stock Exchange www.asx.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Awards / Endorsements for quality websites?
I was wondering if anyone knew of a popular sites to promote semanitc or compliant (or good in general) websites? Furthermore, if there was a site or an award that would be considered quite an achievement or endorsement for your work? I have submitted several items to www.w3cSites.com, however despite the fact that one of our submissions (our creativehq website) has been hand-picked to be featured on its homepage and therefore giving us alot of traffic, it seems that in general that sites submitted to w3csites are uninspiring--too much focus seems to go on design, rather than the coding, and very few items seem to be a truely commercial nature; I would suggest that the wirelessdataforum.org.nz website I mentioned a few weeks back is much more worthy that the creative-hq site which won, for example. (BTW, thanks to every one who commented on the wirelessforum site, much of your feedback is either now done, or before queued up to done over the forthcoming week.). Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] validation errors
This needs to be rewritten as: http://www.choice.com.au/defaultView.aspx?id=102314amp;catId=100165 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I have a page in the site I am working on (http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/sbi240/module3/agriculture.html) that won't validate because of an external link I have to the Australian Consumers' Association - http://www.choice.com.au/defaultView.aspx?id=102314catId=100165 I'm getting these sorts of errors Line 298, column 70: cannot generate system identifier for general entity catId Line 298, column 70: general entity catId not defined and no default entity Line 298, column 75: reference not terminated by REFC delimiter Line 298, column 75: reference to external entity in attribute value Is there any way to get the page to validate? Any help is much appreciated. Thank you Helen *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer, Teaching Learning Development Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cdu.edu.au CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A form within a form
I always thought a form was not able to be placed in a form. Can you explain what you're attempting to do? Are you sure you're not just wanting to have two submit buttons within the one form? Charla wrote: Hi Does anybody know how to sumbit the inner form, if you have a form within a form on the same page and you only want to submit the inner one..how do you do this? Any ideas Charla Nicol Web Developer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Comments on new wirelessforum.org.nz site?
We just 'soft launched' a new website, http://www.wirelessforum.org.nz, so that we can gather a final set of feedback and changes for a Monday meeting to see the project finished next week. The entire site is XHTML 1.1, CSS2, WCAG-AAA compliant, and makes good use of semantic markup, e.g. no tables for layout, lists for menus, H1/H2/H3 in appopriate places, as well as lists of news items, events, etc on pages. Am wanting this to be a good portfolio item for our web standards compliance, so if anyone can point out things in our markup or CSS to make it even more bullet proof, or find any holes, that would be fantastic :P I've submitted it to http://w3csites.com/sites.asp, so I want to ensure it has a valid home there! It is designed to look fine in pcIE6/MacIE5.2, and the latest Safari, FireFox, Opera and Netscape. A few things happen in pcIE5.5, and 5, but are mainly to do with the size of paddings and margins and we don't deem this as any concern. NB: The two lines of *homepage event titles* currently don't fit, but we're going to get some new taller backgroung images here by Monday, but other than that, there shouldn't be surprises. The whole site is content managed (with content and new pages being added/edited as I speak by a few different people, so please excuse any gaps in the content!)--its a good test of the xhtml compliance feature of our CMS that we've been working dilegently on! As you can see, its quite an improvement over its previous state (http://www.wirelessdataforum.org.nz). Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comments on new wirelessforum.org.nz site?
Charla, Rick, Cheers for the nice feedback ;) Yeah what you mention with the dates overlapping the border was what I perhaps ambigiously descriped in my email as: "NB: The two lines of *homepage event titles* currently don't fit, but we're going to get some new taller backgroung images here by Monday, but other than that, there shouldn't be surprises. " I'm hoping for some more issues! :P --- Offtopic, but probably of interest to all is that one of the major reasons we did a soft launch is website compression. This has worked since neither of you complained about that. All HTML, CSS and JS is compressed when delivered to your browser. See this: http://www.pipeboost.com/getreport.asp?URL=""> This shows that the front page HTML goes from an already compact 7.5k to a almost ridiculous 2k (The CSS I am sure follows suit). This ought to make for a very responsive site, given we've been very particular about the use of images. (Turn images off, its almost as good! :P). Siggy Charla wrote: This site looks awesome...jus noticed dnt kno if you have but on the home page in FF mozilla.. in the "coming up" boxes the text doe not fix...the date in particular Rick Faaberg wrote: On 4/7/05 12:53 AM "Sigurd Magnusson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: We just 'soft launched' a new website, http://www.wirelessforum.org.nz, so that we can gather a final set of feedback and changes for a Monday meeting to see the project finished next week. The entire site is XHTML 1.1, CSS2, WCAG-AAA compliant, and makes good use of semantic markup, e.g. no tables for layout, lists for menus, H1/H2/H3 in appopriate places, as well as lists of news items, events, etc on pages. Am wanting this to be a good portfolio item for our web standards compliance, so if anyone can point out things in our markup or CSS to make it even more bullet proof, or find any holes, that would be fantastic :P I've submitted it to http://w3csites.com/sites.asp, so I want to ensure it has a valid home there! Very nice looking site, if that helps. The two Comimg Up boxes have the dates overlapping the bottom border in Safari (latest) fwiw. Haven't surfed much beyond the main page. I'll report anything that I see down below the main page if I get to it. Rick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] wirelessforum.org.nz --- on a mobile device?
Oops--something I forgot to ask, is what does this website look like on a mobile device that supports HTML? I browsed around it with an Ericsson P900 and it was quite acceptable (for a similar effect, use FireFox with images and styles disabled and about 300px window width). However, I am not sure what sort of 'standards' I should use to test against to have a website that operates well with a mobile device; are their good emulators or techniques to improve the site beyond what it currently is like? Sig Sigurd Magnusson wrote: We just 'soft launched' a new website, http://www.wirelessforum.org.nz, so that we can gather a final set of feedback and changes for a Monday meeting to see the project finished next week. The entire site is XHTML 1.1, CSS2, WCAG-AAA compliant, and makes good use of semantic markup, e.g. no tables for layout, lists for menus, H1/H2/H3 in appopriate places, as well as lists of news items, events, etc on pages. Am wanting this to be a good portfolio item for our web standards compliance, so if anyone can point out things in our markup or CSS to make it even more bullet proof, or find any holes, that would be fantastic :P I've submitted it to http://w3csites.com/sites.asp, so I want to ensure it has a valid home there! It is designed to look fine in pcIE6/MacIE5.2, and the latest Safari, FireFox, Opera and Netscape. A few things happen in pcIE5.5, and 5, but are mainly to do with the size of paddings and margins and we don't deem this as any concern. NB: The two lines of *homepage event titles* currently don't fit, but we're going to get some new taller backgroung images here by Monday, but other than that, there shouldn't be surprises. The whole site is content managed (with content and new pages being added/edited as I speak by a few different people, so please excuse any gaps in the content!)--its a good test of the xhtml compliance feature of our CMS that we've been working dilegently on! As you can see, its quite an improvement over its previous state (http://www.wirelessdataforum.org.nz). Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml?
It could be argued that it is more than presentation. It indicates to the user about the quantity or usage of the textarea; the size of text fields is a usability topic. If you were told to write a "Summary of your proposal", and given 8 lines instead of 2 lines, you would probably write a completely different passage of text. - Original Message - From: Alan Trick To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml? I've wondered about this one as well, my guess is that 1. they figured the attributes were to important to drop in the event of non-css user agents,or more likely 2. they didn't change it because xhtml1.x was really not much more than a reformulation of html into xml. To get real xhtml we will have to wait for xhtml2, xforms and all that good stuff. (there are no cols or rows in xforms). This was done in order to maintain backwards compatibility, something xhtml2 will break.Not a great answer, but that's all I can come up with.AlanPaul Novitski wrote: Why is it that rows and cols are required attributes for the textarea element, even in xhtml? They strike me as being purely presentational, and not really needed: in the absense of styling, browsers could apply arbitrary defaults as they do with text input field width. I can't find any reference to this oddity on the w3c site or elsewhere. Any suggestions? Paul
Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml?
The number of rows and columns of a textarea in no way constrains the
amount of text that can be entered, it only affect the appearance of the
input area on the screen.
I agree it doesn't technically constrain the user, but it does instruct a
user how much they are expected to write. As power users, we would both know
we could type in any quantity of text, however casual users will expect the
amount of text they write in has a relationship with the size of the text
area. A blind reader, a search engine, a lynx browser, and so on, can more
easily interpret the intended use of a text area with cols/rows.
but the apparent size of the input field is wholly determined by CSS
width.
Not wholly--XHTML 1.1 continues to have the size attribute for the input
element, and this is akin to cols for the textarea.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_extformsmodule
We can only surmise that W3C had people touting both opinions, and this
shows a comprimise?
This matter might be better dealt with in XForms or other forthcoming form
standards.
Siggy
- Original Message -
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] textarea rows cols - presentation in xhtml?
At 03:00 PM 4/4/2005, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
It could be argued that it is more than presentation. It indicates to the
user about the quantity or usage of the textarea; the size of text fields
is a usability topic. If you were told to write a Summary of your
proposal, and given 8 lines instead of 2 lines, you would probably write
a completely different passage of text.
Perhaps, but that seems very obviously a presentational aspect to me. The
number of rows and columns of a textarea in no way constrains the amount
of text that can be entered, it only affect the appearance of the input
area on the screen.
input type=text / fields have the optional maxlength attribute to
constrain the length of input, but the apparent size of the input field is
wholly determined by CSS width. The W3C leaves it completely up to you if
you style an input field with {width: 1px;} but maxlength=64000 and it
surprises me that they make an exception with textarea.
Presumably, when they deprecated the width attribute for input but kept
maxlength, they fervently wished they could do the same for textarea but
couldn't, since textarea wasn't born with a maxlength and they probably
didn't deem it wise to tack one on. I wouldn't be surprised if this
detail generated considerable debate, although I can't find any reference
to the decision-making process on their site.
Regards,
Paul
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Re: [WSG] Captioning images - to DL or not to DL
Sure I've never heard myself of using DL/DT/DD for this sort of thing, although instinctively it seems quite an appropriate use. My question relates to what sort of problems you have encountered with widths; I would have thought the following would pose no problems: dl class=captionedimage dtimg src=xyz.jpg width=100 height=150 alt=Australian Landmark //dt ddHere is wonderful example of a Australian Landmark/dd /dl You would simply be meddling with padding, margins and borders on the elements; the width remains attached to the image itself, as this is appropriate even with XHTML 1.1. I presume you know you can easily float the dl left or right, rather than use align=right on the img / element. Siggy I was wondering what the best solution was for captioning images where you have a number of differently sized images on a page. Is using a definition list the best way to do this and the most semantically correct? Are there better ways? The biggest problem I have found is having to set the width of the dl when all the images are of a different size. Thanks Helen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Extra padding mysteriously exists in IE6
Gah - we're well underway on a an XHTML 1.1 compliant site, and we've
eventually found that we need to do an IE hack--a real shame since
everything else was going so well. Can anyone see if there's a simple
mistake we've done, or if it is indeed a bug with IE which necessitates a
hack.
The problem simply relates to the vertical gap between the Related Links
and Featured Members boxes at the right. We want the gap to be 9px.
This should be possible simply with:
#FeaturedMembers{
margin:9px 0 0 0;
}
... and this works with Mac IE, FireFox, Safari, etc. If padding-top is 0,
then the blue borders of boxes touch.
But IE6 has a much larger gap, and even a gap when the padding-top is set to
0. (You need to set the padding-top to 3px to provide an equivilent gap...).
Our hack was to do;
#FeaturedMembers{
margin:3px 0 0 0; /* margin-top used by IE6 */
}
htmlbody #FeaturedMembers{
margin-top:9px; /* margin-top used by others */
}
It's not the end of the world if we are forced to do the hack, although
wouldn't it be cool if we could have site without hacks ;) Its more out of
curiosity about what the heck is going on!
See the site (which is currently missing the hack as shown above to
illustrate the problem) at http://test.totallydigital.co.nz/wdf/
See lines ~270-280 of
http://test.totallydigital.co.nz/wdf/mainsite/css/main.css for the CSS in
question.
(Yes, the homepage is currently xhtml1.1/css2 compliant, other pages have a
few issues that will be checked and fixed as we go on ;) )
Siggy
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Re: [WSG] Style part of form field
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/miscellaneous-symbols.html All symbols of version 2.1 are shown in standard-browsers. Actually, while when I loaded this up (in FireFox), I was happily surprised that all symbols showed, I noticed that IE6 showed WAY less than half of them... perhaps there is a work-around or other factors involved here (e.g. the character set, font used to display the items, etc). Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Fw: [WSG] Style part of form field
In fact, IE5 (on another computer) renders even less than the few that IE6 displayed; Opera and Netscape 7.2 also performed very poorly... And when I tried this on another machine here with FireFox, it performed very poorly in comparison with my machine... so must be affected by what fonts or setup you have in the operating system??? Siggy - Original Message - From: Sigurd Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Style part of form field http://www.sql-und-xml.de/unicode-database/miscellaneous-symbols.html All symbols of version 2.1 are shown in standard-browsers. Actually, while when I loaded this up (in FireFox), I was happily surprised that all symbols showed, I noticed that IE6 showed WAY less than half of them... perhaps there is a work-around or other factors involved here (e.g. the character set, font used to display the items, etc). Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Page views per month, peak rates in an hour
Untitled DocumentHi all, A little off-topic, but after a look around the internet I've come up blank: I'm trying to lump the popularity of websites into groups based on the total number of page views per month, and also learn the peak rate of page views per hour. E.g. a standard banking website in New Zealand might recieve 15 million page views per month, which is around 27,000 page views an hour (if you decided 6 hours a night were idle), but in lunch times, that rate might be more like 50,000, etc. I imagine in New Zealand it would be groups such as 10M+, 1-10M, 50k-1M that would be--it would be interesting to learn the quantity and general examples of websites in those categories. Finally, it would be useful to learn how much higher than average the 'peak hour' is. Does anyone have resources or information on this; Australiasian would be most useful but other areas would atleast give me ideas! Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Well if you put a border on the span you see that the image is in the wrong
place within the span;
Doing background-position: bottom right; within the ul#subnav li.last
span { certainly gets you most the way there; had you done that?
Siggy
- Original Message -
From: Mike Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: [WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Ok, so this is driving me crazy!
http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template.html
I have an unordered list being used for navigation. The bottom item on the
list needs to have a rounded corner. I figure:
- make the last li position: relative
- add a span inside the last li the exact size of the corner image
- position it absolute to bottom and right of the last li
- have the corner image set as a background for the span
- give the last li height: 1%; as if I don't IE Win positions the
span further down the page cf:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/abs_relbugs.html
It all looks fine in Mozilla, Safari and Opera, but the span is being
positioned wrongly in IE Win - ie, not at right and bottom of the last
li.
Any ideas? I've spent way too long trying to figure this out, so no doubt
have missed something basic!
Thanks.
Mike
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Re: [WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Alternatively, fast forward to the the future, and use
border-bottom-right-radius :P
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-css3-background-20050216/#the-border-radius
Someone here mentioned that this is already implemented in FireFox with a
different name.
Siggy
- Original Message -
From: Mike Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
Well if you put a border on the span you see that the image is in the
wrong place within the span;
Doing background-position: bottom right; within the ul#subnav li.last
span { certainly gets you most the way there; had you done that?
No! I hadn't thought it necessay because the span was given a width and
height the same size as the background image. Your suggestion does help.
It's still not quite right, but getting closer :)
Thanks!
Bert Doorn wrote:
http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template.html
I have an unordered list being used for navigation. The bottom item on
the list needs to have a rounded corner. I figure:
Any ideas? I've spent way too long trying to figure this out, so no
doubt have missed something basic!
Why not just make a background image for the last li instead of fiddling
with spans, absolute and relative positioning etc?
ul#subnav li.last {
background: #url(subnav-corner.gif) no-repeat right bottom;
}
If that (as I suspect) interferes with the links (corner disappears,
particularly on hover), put a background image on
li.last a
...and...
li.last a:hover
I had thought of that, but the li.last a:hover does interfere with the
corner:
http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template2.html
I can't put the corner as a background image on the a as you suggest as
it already has the little box with the arrow as a background image. And I
can't combime that with the bottom right corner as I don't know how high
the link will be - eg whether it's 1 or 2 lines.
Incidentally, you might ass more contrast - there's not enough of it,
especially on hover, making the (tiny) link text very hard to read.
Agreed, but I didn't design it, am just building it!
Thanks.
Mike
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[WSG] FireFox 1.0.2 out :)
Untitled DocumentUpgrade your browsers ;) The new version simply resolves a couple of security vulnerabilities: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] nesting in list
Looking at the W3C for XHTML 1.1; http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_listmodule It says that LI and DDs both are part of the Flow content model, which is the same as DIV, so this looks to confirm what my feeling was... they can contain any nested element, including further DLs, ULs and OLs. DTs are like H1s; and can only contain inline elements. Siggy - Original Message - From: Jonathan T. Sage [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] nesting in list at the very least, I believe any inline element can be nested. Some block-level elements may be as well I think. ~j On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:32:33 -0500, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know what is allowed to be nested under a list (ul,ol,dl) in XHTML? I read one resource, but all it said is that ul and ol require 1 li, and dl requires at least one dt, and one dl. Alan Trick -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dilemma: Useful, additional attributes in elements, invalidating HTML
Thanks for all your feedback;
Steve Bryant: Cheers. The second approach is pretty code-heavy, so I would
probably make the verbose style
onblur=checkvalidation('required=true,validation=numeric') and possibly run
the onblur event on all forms at the submission, or something like that.
Gez; So you're under the opinion, if you're setting attributes, only for
later retrieval (i.e. that the user agent is specifically being asked to
ignore the attributes), that this is poor design?
(I'd not come across this idea before). Additionally, would you be of the
opinion, even if we used a custom DTD, that we were not operating in the
spirits of webstandards? (i.e. we were tricking the validator for
approval?). This angle interests me.
Kornel: The alistapart article, we have seen--it however causes a raft of
problems in the interim. One is that I do want to be able to produce xhtml
1.1 sites because some people need this (and one thing that I was asking,
was if the fact it longer was the XHTML 1.1 doctype, would I run into
people's apprehension-- see Bert Doorn's comment, for example)
. I use validation both as a means for marketing the quality of a website,
and expect to have it so I can quickly check websites for mistakes (the
htmlhelp one that can spider whole websites is great - i.e.
www.htmlhelp.com/cgi-bin/validate.cgi?url=http://webstandardsgroup.org/index.cfmwarnings=yesspider=yes).
I didn't get any feedback on extending XML via more namespaces? I have seen
this on other sides, and my understanding was that this is an alternative
way of adding attributes to elements?
html xmlns:niftyform=http://somewhere/niftyform
...
form ...
...
input niftyform:required=1 /
...
/form
...
/html
It seems one Vignette website I know (http://tvnz.co.nz/) uses this.
(Beware, that site is horrid in FireFox for some reason. I'm sure the
missing doctype and the hundreds of errors probably don't help?)
If I validate that document as XHTML 1.1, it tells me that there are
additional namespaces, however it seems the manner in which they are
included is not permitted, as you see from the top few errors:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ftvnz.co.nz%2Fview%2Ftvnz_index_skin%2Ftvnz_index_groupcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=XHTML+1.1verbose=1
Or am I supposed to do something like this? Has anyone played with this sort
of thing, or should I devote an afternoon to playing around and letting you
all know how I get on?
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
...
form xmlns=http://some.custom/one/thatsomehow/adds/niftyform/namespace
...
input niftyform:required=required /
...
/form
...
/html
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Re: [WSG] Website Review
Hi, Just a comment on layout; When I went to the website, I immediately took an interest in the package and wanted to go to a download page, but I actually had difficulty locating it, which then raised my suspicions that it was still under development, especially when I went to 'Status' menu item, which has Uniform Server Development Status as the main heading in the content area. I would suggest bumping in a new heading like Current version x.x available for download, with a sentance or two, including its release date (always promote your release date!) and the link over to sourceforge. Put this both on the homepage, and in the status page. Using some more graphics like Download version x.x now would also aid this. Perhaps it was due to the fact there are three menus, and on the homepage they're all shouting I am the most important menu. Anyway, now that I did find the download link, I am keen on trialing it :P Siggy - Original Message - From: Olajide Olaolorun [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WSG wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: [WSG] Website Review Can you please review http://www.uniformserver.com and tell me what you think? I would love to hear from you all... Thanks -- Best Regards, Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com ...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS validator says [xX][mM][lL] is not allowed.
I get the same response, so would seem to be a bug; perhaps submit a bug report to w3c? (Our company has sent in a bug report for the w3c xhtml 1.1 validator the other week, so don't treat it as absolutely perfect!!) Siggy - Original Message - From: Andrey Stefanenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 8:42 PM Subject: [WSG] CSS validator says [xX][mM][lL] is not allowed. Hi, I have valid XHTML http://idealcouple.com/ http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fidealcouple.com%2F And valid CSS http://idealcouple.com/styling/idealism.css http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fidealcouple.com%2Fstyling%2Fidealism.cssusermedium=all But when my client click CSS link in the footer, CSS validator says : Please, validate your XML document first! Line 2 Column 6 The processing instruction target matching [xX][mM][lL] is not allowed. I have both XHTML and CSS valid, but CSS Validator dont think so :( Whats my problem? The same trouble i have in my other site in development (line and column number are different) http://it.net.ua/weblog/ We use PHP to render XML prolog and DOCTYPE, and we use PHP sessions. Any help are welcome, as well as screenshots from Mac people. Thanx, Andrey. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Making accessible a one-text field form with an image submit button?
Cheers - had wondered about using display:none, but always feel a little annoyed there aren't better ways; it surprises me that an alt tag on the input type=text / is insufficient. One other note--does having an initial value in the text field aid blind readers? Is it advocated by WAI or aid WCAG rules? (I would express a view that it helps visual users). Sig - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Making accessible a one-text field form with an image submit button? Sigurd Magnusson wrote: Rule: 12.4.1 - Identify all non-hidden INPUT elements that do not have an explicit LABEL association. Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, at Line: 109, Column: 30 in FORM Element at Line: 108, Column: 2 I could put the label around the image button, or have a blank one, but this sort of defeats the purpose in my opinion... ideas? Firstly: submit buttons and image button do not need an additional label: for submit buttons, the value itself acts as a label; for images, the ALT attribute takes that role. So your only real problem here is the text input (as the above error message suggests). label for=searchtermSearch/label input type=text name=searchterm id=searchterm / input type=submit value=search / You can then use CSS to hide the label, if you want...and this is one of those rare cases where even if you use display:none, screenreaders will still see the label (due to its explicit tie to the input field). -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Making accessible a one-text field form with an image submit button?
Cheers - had wondered about using display:none, but always feel a little annoyed there aren't better ways; it surprises me that an alt tag on the input type=text / is insufficient. One other note--does having an initial value in the text field aid blind readers? Is it advocated by WAI or aid WCAG rules? (I would express a view that it helps visual users). Sig - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Making accessible a one-text field form with an image submit button? Sigurd Magnusson wrote: Rule: 12.4.1 - Identify all non-hidden INPUT elements that do not have an explicit LABEL association. Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, at Line: 109, Column: 30 in FORM Element at Line: 108, Column: 2 I could put the label around the image button, or have a blank one, but this sort of defeats the purpose in my opinion... ideas? Firstly: submit buttons and image button do not need an additional label: for submit buttons, the value itself acts as a label; for images, the ALT attribute takes that role. So your only real problem here is the text input (as the above error message suggests). label for=searchtermSearch/label input type=text name=searchterm id=searchterm / input type=submit value=search / You can then use CSS to hide the label, if you want...and this is one of those rare cases where even if you use display:none, screenreaders will still see the label (due to its explicit tie to the input field). -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Dilemma: Useful, additional attributes in elements, invalidating HTML
This is a split technical/marketing dilemma for people to ponder... Over the past few years, we have built up a library of rather useful Javascript libraries that we thought were a very elegant solution for adding behaviour to menu systems and forms. These have been used on dozens of websites, and are going to be offered to webdesigners' use. For example, we built some javascript which could be used by including a single external javascript file, and when the page loaded, it would efficiently look through the the DOM (document object model) for fields like this: input type=text name=EmailAddress required=true validation=email / It would then automatically add javascript events to ensure when the form was clicked, that this text field contained a value, and that this value followed the [EMAIL PROTECTED] format. We had a number of different types of validation; for example; numeric, which contained other options such as minimum/maximum numeric values. Clever, we thought -- very easy to implement, reliable, cross-platform tested, et al. We looked to the XForms' spec in coming up with conventions, so they could become a standard in time. Supposedly, somewhere it was once mentioned that any unknown attribute it left ignored by a browser, so we utilised that feature, knowing that many scripts around the net use the DOM in this way. Of course, we strike a major problem when we attempt to validate such HTML; these attributes are not known, and show as failures. Doh! So, as I see it, there are two problems; 1. Technical -- there will be times when the validator shows errors. This may lead to us letting in other errors--its much easier to go through pages and check they are 100% correct instead of checking they are nearly correct, bar some permissble exceptions. 2. Marketing -- people consider a document validates or doesn't. If you say Well, it validates, except for some things where we've ... people will stop listening and just summarise it as It doesn't validate. This dilutes our ability to promote that sites we create validate, and also diluates our crusade to encourage others to build valid sites. I'm interested to know what your views on how important these concerns seem to you (especially in terms of marketing? Would you, as a webdesigner, use scripts like this, knowing they would invalidate your code, but make certain areas of development way easier?) Possible solutions: 1. Create a custom DTD that takes the DOCTYPE of XHTML1.1 and adds the extra attributes such as 'required' to the 'input' element. Alistapart has a recent article on this. Basically, browser's ignore them, but will be in standards mode, and frustratingly, the W3C Validator doesn't interpret them, so we'd have to promote that such sites don't validate with that validator (but you can use an alternative validator, sigh). This is a possible solution with XHTML 1.1, especially in time to come, but a solution to apply to XHTML 1.0 or even old HTML 4.01 sites would be useful. I find this to be a good 'technical' solution, but means we have a battle every time we explain the do you validate? topic. 2. Use a different style for attributes. I was reading that you could include them as XML attributes, e.g. input type=text xml::required=1 / But I haven't seen much information. Doesn't anyone know if this approach would be suitable (i.e. that browsers support it, the DOM can be used to retrieve values, the W3C validator would silently pass over them, etc). I presume you could only put these in with XHTML 1.0/1.1 documents, and that there is no way to put in extra attributes into HTML 4.01. Has anyone got some resources on the purpose or usage of XML attributes? 3. Leave it as it, and just have pages with forms fail on these items ... 4. Some jewel that is only thought up by mailing the WSG :) Cheers for taking your time to mull over this one :) Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Making accessible a one-text field form with an image submit button?
I noticed that WCAG-AA needs a label "for" any text fields in a form. Makes sense, but ...In the case where you have a text field like (where the button is an image):[] [Sign Up To Newsletter] or [] [Search]These are common as a global form on all pages. There is no label, even for visual users; the button image is the only item, and if this is an image, then it can have an alt tag.However, it seems that even if I put an ALT on the text field, the automated WCAG-AA test still fails the form; why??Rule: 12.4.1 - Identify all non-hidden INPUT elements that do not have an explicit LABEL association.Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, at Line: 109, Column: 30 in FORM Element at Line: 108, Column: 2 I could put the label around the image button, or have a blank one, but this sort of defeats the purpose in my opinion... ideas?Siggy
[WSG] Browser support for javascript CDATA regions
Untitled DocumentI am wanting to get some inline javascript to validate to xhtml1.1, which can be done via cdata regions. What's browser support for these like? Is this another area of brainnumbing hacks and problems? Siggy script type=text/javascript ![CDATA[Lots of juicy symbols.]]/script ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec
Wow. Some serious bedtime reading. Cheers. Siggy - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec Here are some: Joe Clark's serialised book (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc) http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html Writing good ALT text (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc) http://www.gawds.org/show.php?contentid=28 The alt and title attributes (covers alt and title but not longdesc, from memory) http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/ Then there is always Laura's mega resource: http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.ht ml#alt HTH Russ Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt vs title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of links, etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and obviously I can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an overall conclusion? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redundant Code
Don't know the maximum number of pixels a page can have; it very likely depends on the user agent. I would have thought the most robust way is to have a fluid design; which led me to an idea--having a fluid design only in the print media type :P I wonder if anyone's done that?? Or you could print it out in landscape view, given that a piece of paper is normally portait whereas a screen often landscape. FireFox has some rather nice print options, btw. Siggy - Original Message - From: Mary Ann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:05 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Redundant Code Hi, Sarah- I printed out your test site because I thought it was so very clean and attractive and I wanted to study your use of styles in creating it. However, the page is wider than my printer's page size so some text is lost along the left side. For instance, Checkout in the navigation bar is cut off as is Contact. I see you have set the container width at 760px. Does anyone know what is the maximum number of pixels for page width in order to avoid truncating the text along the left side of a print job? Even Microsoft's support pages suffer from this same problem . . . really maddening when trying to solve a technical problem. Thanks for your help. Mary Ann -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Sarah Peeke (XERT) Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 7:35 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Redundant Code Hi Siggy Thanks for your reply. ul liSub Heading 1 ul lia href=/Category 1/a/li lia href=/Category 2/a/li lia href=/Category 3/a/li lia href=/Category 4/a/li lia href=/Category 5/a/li lia href=/Category 6/a/li /ul /li liSub Heading 2/li liSub Heading 1/li /ul The change to the heirarchy above is great, but it doesn't help the #header, #mainnav and #subnav lists because there isn't a heading for these. If you look at the page with styles disabled you'll see what I mean. I have changed the list style as per your suggestion #2 - thanks, an obvious improvement. Sarah Test site http://www.bureke.com.au/test/index.html which is valid XHTML/CSS. The style sheet is here: http://www.bureke.com.au/test/styles/global.css -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec
I keep seeing asterisks in the W3C spec but cannot see a glossary anywhere. As an example, with the img element in xhtml 1.1, the attributes 'src' and 'alt' are both marked with an asterisk. Why? http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_imagemodule (I realise img is marked to be deprecated in xhtml2, but I feel adoption for that will require new browsers to come out and gain market share, as the object tag has a huge set of problems) Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt vs title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of links, etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and obviously I can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an overall conclusion? Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redundant Code
#1 - not sure
#2 If you want to apply something to every li within #header, use #header
li { ... }
Regarding #3, nesting your menus will create a clearer heirachy;
e.g. change
ul
lih2Sub Heading 3/h2/li
lia href=/Category 1/a/li
lia href=/Category 2/a/li
lia href=/Category 3/a/li
lia href=/Category 4/a/li
lia href=/Category 5/a/li
lia href=/Category 6/a/li
/ul
to
ul liSub Heading 1
ul
lia href=/Category 1/a/li
lia href=/Category 2/a/li
lia href=/Category 3/a/li
lia href=/Category 4/a/li
lia href=/Category 5/a/li
lia href=/Category 6/a/li
/ul /li
liSub Heading 2/li liSub Heading 1/li
/ul
(Sorry, indentation in emails doesn't seem to work very well!)
Siggy
- Original Message -
From: Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WSG wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:00 AM
Subject: [WSG] Redundant Code
Hello all
I have a test site http://www.bureke.com.au/test/index.html which is valid
XHTML/CSS. The style
sheet is here: http://www.bureke.com.au/test/styles/global.css
In order for it to work cross-platform (I have tested on Firefox, IE5,
IE5.5, and IE6 on the PC, and
Firefox, Safari and IE5.2 on the Mac) I have added all sorts of float and
clear tags.
My questions are these:
1. What is the best way to test for redundant code (other than removing code
and testing on all
browsers, line by line)? Can any of you 'float gurus' see any glaringly
obvious redundancies?
2. I have used a modification of one of Russ' tutorials for the #header and
#subnav - to float the
menu elements left and right. Is there a cleaner way to achieve this other
than to apply a class to
*every* li tag?
3. Disabling styles in the browser provides three (3) separate lists
comprising #header, #mainnav
and #subnav *without* any explanation or visual hierarchy (obviously). Is
there a better way of
making it easier for someone without css (eg Netscape 4 users) or text
readers etc to differentiate
between these navigational elements?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Sarah
--
XERT Communications
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: +61 2 4782 3104
mobile: 0438 017 416
http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production
**
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[WSG] More links, their titles, and accessibility
Untitled DocumentA list of items containing titles, summaries and more links
is fairly common; both for news articles, and products ('buy now '.).
In my opinion, a 'more' link is good accessibility for most users... You
read a snippet of an interesting news article, and therefore your eye is at
the end of a sentance, possible with an elipses (...) and therefore having a
read more link right there is attractive and easy to use.
I understand completely about the adverse effects of this, and therefore the
news headlines, or product titles, *must* be linked, and therefore a blind
reader might say when descibing links;
Company offers new product..., more, Company staff win prizes,
more
For this reason, I see linking the titles as a necessity, and having 'more'
links an option to consider if they are worthwhile. (I also believe that
designers who want to *not* have links on the titles can simply choose to
remove the visual apperance of links, and ensure that they are infact
links--not that I really want to endorse that practice, but its better than
not having the titles as links at all)
What I wanting to ask is this:
How useful is it to place an title attribute on a / tags?
Supposedly these can be used to differentiate links where the linked text is
duplicated, or possibly not very clear, and supposedly this conforms to
XHTML 1.1. I'm wondering (especially in the case of products' buy now
links, if these provide very real benfits--i.e. do any major user agents
support them?)
Cheers,
Siggy
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[WSG] DLs and multiple DDs, as more semantic means to produce general lists containing titles and summaries
Untitled DocumentIn an effort to make our company's code XHTML 1.1 compliant and more semantic (we were loosely following XHTML 1.0 Trans but now want to more ridigly follow it), I was brainstorming for conventions and best practices. I came up with an idea pertaining to general lists that I'd like your input on. Looking back at our sites, we would generally produce lists (such as news articles with dates, summaries, leading into full pages), or products, upcoming events, articles (.e.g http://www.wigley.co.nz/mainsite/LatestArticles.html) etc, in two general ways; 1. Divs with nested headers/paragraphs. E.g. div id=LatestNews h1Latest News/h2 h2a href=FullArticle.htmlNews Item One/a/h2 pspan class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../p h2a href=FullArticle2.htmlNews Item Two/a/h2 pspan class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../p /div Or, a wee bit nicer, use an unordered list, almost identically: div id=LatestNews h1Latest News/h2 ul lia href=FullArticle.html class=HeadingNews Item One/a/h2 span class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../li h2a href=FullArticle2.html class=HeadingNews Item Two/a/h2 span class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../li /ul /div However, it occured to when reading the XHTML 1.1 doctype's list module, that it would be appropriate to use the definition list (dl, dt, dd) for lists where you had a clear heiracy of titles and associated information about them. The first example shows the proper heirachy between h1,h2 (news article) and introduction, but doesn't give any semantic idea that the h2's are all related in a list. So, you could do this: div id=LatestNews h1Latest News/h2 dl dta href=FullArticle.htmlNews Item One/a/dt ddspan class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../dd dta href=FullArticle2.html class=HeadingNews Item Two/a/dt ddspan class=Date20/10/05/span Introduction goes here.../dd /dl /div This gives both the idea of list of items and that the list has 'titles' and 'descriptions'... I also went back to the W3C and determined that it is a requirement of the html401 spec to allow multiple DDs for a DT. (e.g. if your DT was for a word that had several meanings. Even Netscape 4 supports it!), so you could even do the following, which I feel most comfortable about: div id=LatestNews h1Latest News/h2 dl dta href=FullArticle.htmlNews Item One/a/dt dd class=date20/10/05/dd dd class=intro Introduction goes here.../dd dta href=FullArticle2.html class=HeadingNews Item Two/a/dt dd class=date20/10/05/dd dd class=intro Introduction goes here.../dd /dl /div While I do understand the DL is for a definition list, the W3C provide another acceptable use of it as a transcript of people talking. To me, this seems like another appropriate use that was simply not dreamed of years ago when the spec was built--I can't see any places where this is used, not that I looked around much ... Ideas? Opinions? Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redundant Code
The change to the heirarchy above is great, but it doesn't help the #header, #mainnav and #subnav lists because there isn't a heading for these. If you look at the page with styles disabled you'll see what I mean. I think what you and I are both really waiting for is XHTML2; except we need to wait for browsers and W3C to adopt it :P http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl nl labelContents /label li href=#introductionIntroduction/li li nl labelTerms/label li href=#mayMay/li li href=#mustMust/li li href=#shouldShould/li /nl /li li href=#conformanceConformance/li li href=#referencesReferences/li ... /nl Siggy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
