Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So. On 5/19/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! So, the W3C is the web's standards body, and they only define guidelines for making official W3C technologies accessible. And WCAG 1.0 guideline 11 also states Use W3C technologies and guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-use-w3c It's also worth noting that, by definition, Flash cannot be 100% accessible (as there will always be the initial hurdle of certain browsing environments or assistive technologies not being able to understand, or hook into, a flash movie). -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: So, the W3C is the web's standards body, and they only define guidelines for making official W3C technologies accessible. And now I just realised that the original question was not about accessibility, but about specifications in general (such as the XHTML/CSS/etc ones). In which case, even more of a reason why the W3C can't release a spec for Flash: it's not their technology. They can't release a spec if it's owned by a commercial company.Of course they'd only be releasing *their* specs, as they relate to *their* official technologies. It would be a bit like saying Why don't Microsoft release a spec for Quicktime movies... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So. On 5/19/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! So, the W3C is the web's standards body, and they only define guidelines for making official W3C technologies accessible. And WCAG 1.0 guideline 11 also states Use W3C technologies and guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-use-w3c It's also worth noting that, by definition, Flash cannot be 100% accessible (as there will always be the initial hurdle of certain browsing environments or assistive technologies not being able to understand, or hook into, a flash movie). I appreciate what Patrick H. Lauke is saying about flash never being 100% the thing is that flash content is highly desirable by both site owners and user (those that don;t have to work with it) I originally asked for feed back from the list since the Make Poverty History website uses 'flashObject' to replace the innerHTML of a div with the flash mark up. I feel that thhis is a nifty litlle fail safe method of using 'proprietry' technology in pages, features can be built around the use of flashObject to give users the option of no flash content My question is focussed on the following question: Is flashObject the best method for encorperating flash into pages? as aposed to others plain mark up (object / embed), flash Satay, or sIFR I just visited the following http://web.burza.hr/ from www.linkdup.com The thing is that clients and users want all singing all dancing sites. Most of my clients don't care much beyond the surface and they want the surface to be gleaming and polished. I attempt to meet these expectations and still adhere to other aspects of site building which I understand the importance of SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Is flashObject the best method for encorperating flash into pages? as aposed to others plain mark up (object / embed), flash Satay, or sIFR I think sIFR should be left out of this because it's goal is different. You can't have general flash content with sIFR - it's for typographical enhancemente only. I've used flash satay and find it a clean and easy way to embed flash stuff in to xHTML. Prabhath http://nidahas.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: And now I just realised that the original question was not about accessibility, but about specifications in general (such as the XHTML/CSS/etc ones). In which case, even more of a reason why the W3C can't release a spec for Flash: it's not their technology. They can't release a spec if it's owned by a commercial company.Of course they'd only be releasing *their* specs, as they relate to *their* official technologies. It would be a bit like saying Why don't Microsoft release a spec for Quicktime movies... It's actually the other way around, companies and organisation developing technologies are encourage to develop them according to W3C recommendations. So 1) Web developers are encouraged to follow WCAG, 2) Authoring Tool developers are encouraged to follow ATAG (http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG10/) 3) User Agent developers are encouraged to follow UAAG (http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/) The UAAG applies to Flash. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/ The current versions of Flash have improved their accessibility to some degree, thanks to both pressure from groups like this, and a fair bit of working behind the scenes by W3C accessibility people. Bob Regan is the accessibility product manager for macromedia (http://www.markme.com/accessibility/). I notice that Macromedia is not on the UAAG participants list (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wai-ua-members.html), but I think they are on the authoring list (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/), but not currently in good standing. If you really want to chase up the current state of companies working with ATAG and UAAG it's best to ask Matt May (http://www.w3.org/People/Matt/), he's the guy working with these companies (last I checked). He's be a good person to throw 10 questions at for the WSG:-) Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] make poverty history website
Geoff Deering It's actually the other way around, companies and organisation developing technologies are encourage to develop them according to W3C recommendations. That still does not detract from the fact that the Flash format is not a W3C technology. The UAAG applies to Flash. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/ True, but that does mean that the W3C is in a position to release a spec for the *format*. If you really want to chase up the current state of companies working with ATAG and UAAG it's best to ask Matt May (http://www.w3.org/People/Matt/), he's the guy working with these companies (last I checked). Unfortunately, Mayy is leaving (or has already left) the W3C http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2005/04/quittin-time/ Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering It's actually the other way around, companies and organisation developing technologies are encourage to develop them according to W3C recommendations. That still does not detract from the fact that the Flash format is not a W3C technology. The UAAG applies to Flash. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/ True, but that does mean that the W3C is in a position to release a spec for the *format*. I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. But it is still a headache for us developers, because then we have to deal with plugins. It would be far better to be living in a world where the user agent run everything native; SVG, SMIL, etc. But how far are we from that? One thing that gets my observation about watching discussions on lists like this, is not so much the education and learning of standards, which is enough to do as is, but the huge amount of time and investment in learning all the user agent bugs and gotchas. I just wonder, if we really had to cost our development time, how much of it is dealing with both authoring tool and user agent bugs? And another thing, the effort developer put into dealing with this is not recipricated, in my view, by many of the companies producing the tools. If you really want to chase up the current state of companies working with ATAG and UAAG it's best to ask Matt May (http://www.w3.org/People/Matt/), he's the guy working with these companies (last I checked). Unfortunately, Mayy is leaving (or has already left) the W3C http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2005/04/quittin-time/ That's sad. He doen't say so, but I think a lot of them get W3C burnout trying to deal with those companies. They can't speak freely, but I suspect a lot of the companies have their token member on W3C working groups, where back at HQ the project manager really doesn't give it much priority. Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] make poverty history website
Geoff Deering True, but that does mean that the W3C is in a position to release a spec for the *format*. I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. Geoff, don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that only W3C technologies should be used, and that Flash is in any way bad. I was merely replying to the do the W3C have specs for Flash question that was originally posted. I see your point (unless I'm misunderstanding): the W3C should provide standard and compliance requirements for any type of content, be it Java, Flash, PDF, etc But this does seem well beyond the W3C's remit, and yes it goes against their utopian but we have all these wonderful technologies of our own...SMIL/SVG/co view. And another thing, the effort developer put into dealing with this is not recipricated, in my view, by many of the companies producing the tools. Very true. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Patrick Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering True, but that does mean that the W3C is in a position to release a spec for the *format*. I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. Geoff, don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating that only W3C technologies should be used, and that Flash is in any way bad. I was merely replying to the do the W3C have specs for Flash question that was originally posted. Thanks for clarifying that, now that I look back at the discussion I see the thread of the logic now:-) I see your point (unless I'm misunderstanding): the W3C should provide standard and compliance requirements for any type of content, be it Java, Flash, PDF, etc But this does seem well beyond the W3C's remit, and yes it goes against their utopian but we have all these wonderful technologies of our own...SMIL/SVG/co view. I think it is the best of both world. If it is an open specification developed by the W3C then that is obviously going to provide a better premise to work from, but if it is proprietry, then it's also okay as long as it meets the various standards. But the W3C has become so complex that anyone working in one area may not realise that they may possibily be not working properly with other standards. At the same time, from what I have seen, they really do work hard at trying to be inclusive of everyones needs. And another thing, the effort developer put into dealing with this is not recipricated, in my view, by many of the companies producing the tools. Very true. sigh:-( Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for. However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I may change my mind :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
This tangent has gotten quite interesting and turned out to be very informative indeed here is a basic prototype of a site I am making, still early doors yet http://s107442706.websitehome.co.uk/kos5/flash/ I am using flashObject to place the swf in the page. users with a version of flash less than 6 or with _javascript_ disabled see an informative message linking them to appropriate content for thier configuration system set up. My original focus of the question was what do members of the list think of flashObject as a method of placing flash in pages? Standard flash code does not validate. Standard flash code does not have a fallback safety net in case users don't have it working search engines can't get to content within flash movies pages with flashObject can be made error free (at least in terms of validation errors) FlashObject replaces page mark up using _javascript_ and innerHTML of a specific tag, so users see alternative content this alternative content is with the page mark up - therefore I hope search engines spiders pick up with ease Thanks to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for the comment about sIFR. I quite agree with you, its a text enharncer the way it works is simular to flashObject in that it uses style selectors to replace mark up At any rate my current analysis is that this flashObject approach demostrated in my link above is almost fault free, or at least on the road. I am interested in hearing what others think and if anyone else has an approach more suited please reveal the method. once again thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion so far SS Andy Budd wrote: I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for. However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I may change my mind :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
So. On 5/19/05, Andy Budd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- °¿° Registered Linux User: 347957 http://dszady.com (Under Construction) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] make poverty history website
Hi List, I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject. This seems to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics used elsewhere. I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well) So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other alternatives out there? More info can be found on Flash Object here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ Flash Satay http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr atb SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] make poverty history website
Hi Sam, Is there a reason why http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video/?pageVideo=/flv/clickuk512k.flv does not display in Firefox v1.0.3 ? Reading the associated articles it should do, and when it doesn't it should display an alternative text version, though MPH probably forgot. Mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: sam sherlock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 May 2005 17:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] make poverty history website Hi List, I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject. This seems to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics used elsewhere. I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well) So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other alternatives out there? More info can be found on Flash Object here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ Flash Satay http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr atb SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
It all works in firefox for me. But then I have 1.0.4, also works fin in Opera 8 a joyful browser, better thab ff, apart from the absence of extensions Just want to clarify that I did not work on the MPH site, I am using simular approach to them in terms of displaying flash content. I find it really nifty and by far the best approach do any members of the list see any draw backs to the use of flashObject? is there a better method of putting flash in pages? thanks SS Mike Foskett wrote: Hi Sam, Is there a reason why http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video/?pageVideo=/flv/clickuk512k.flv does not display in Firefox v1.0.3 ? Reading the associated articles it should do, and when it doesn't it should display an alternative text version, though MPH probably forgot. Mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: sam sherlock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 May 2005 17:13 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] make poverty history website Hi List, I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject. This seems to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics used elsewhere. I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well) So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other alternatives out there? More info can be found on Flash Object here: http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ Flash Satay http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ sIFR http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr atb SS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
