RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Mark, I have a similar outlook with my own personal blog, but if you are able to look at your visitors stats like myself then you may find that over half your readership is using IE. I'd personally try to make your site accessible to everyone you can, even if it means making a little extra effort with the dreaded IE. Cheers, Blair Millen http://the letter Original Message Follows From: Mark Harwood lt;WebMailgt; lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:10:04 +0100 Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im quot;NON-IEquot; but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think quot;The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work withquot; (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list amp; getting help ** _ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
When I make my site, I just make sure it works everywhere. Then use some FireFox/Mozilla Border Radius code... Just to make IE users a little jealous. And hopefully turn a few over to FF eg: www.gamerdb.net My most recent project. Not entirly complete... Actually only about 50% done. But 90% of the functionaly is complete... Just 50% of the pages arent ready. Sorry - that was a little thread hijacking there. *- Chris Stratford* Blair Millen wrote: Mark, I have a similar outlook with my own personal blog, but if you are able to look at your visitors stats like myself then you may find that over half your readership is using IE. I'd personally try to make your site accessible to everyone you can, even if it means making a little extra effort with the dreaded IE. Cheers, Blair Millen http://the letter Original Message Follows From: Mark Harwood lt;WebMailgt; lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:10:04 +0100 Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im quot;NON-IEquot; but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think quot;The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work withquot; (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list amp; getting help ** _ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Hi, quote i've placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE/quote Web Standards Friendly site. would be better On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:01:34 +1000, Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I make my site, I just make sure it works everywhere. Then use some FireFox/Mozilla Border Radius code... Just to make IE users a little jealous. And hopefully turn a few over to FF eg: www.gamerdb.net My most recent project. Not entirly complete... Actually only about 50% done. But 90% of the functionaly is complete... Just 50% of the pages arent ready. Sorry - that was a little thread hijacking there. *- Chris Stratford* Blair Millen wrote: Mark, I have a similar outlook with my own personal blog, but if you are able to look at your visitors stats like myself then you may find that over half your readership is using IE. I'd personally try to make your site accessible to everyone you can, even if it means making a little extra effort with the dreaded IE. Cheers, Blair Millen http://the letter Original Message Follows From: Mark Harwood lt;WebMailgt; lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:10:04 +0100 Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im quot;NON-IEquot; but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think quot;The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work withquot; (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list amp; getting help ** _ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.W3planet.info/ http://www.EasyHTTP.com/jad/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Commercial suicide :o) Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer () www.seowebsitepromotion.com GAWDS Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: 18 October 2004 12:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
I think it is a very dangerous decision to make! IE is still by far the most common browser and you might be right that clients could get a bit nervous when they see you are anti-IE. It took me such a long time to ditch NN 4, but now that I have done it it just feels great! Dropping IE will take a long, long time, even if it is a crap browser to program for. The other problem is: what if a potential client comes to your site and overlooks the comment on Non-IE compliance? He/She will just think that you don't know your stuff and will go somewhere else. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: Monday, 18 October 2004 9:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
I did say not commercialy, but on my personal site... Altho my worries is that it could effect my commercial work :S On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:29 , Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Commercial suicide :o) Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer () www.seowebsitepromotion.com GAWDS Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]','','','')[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: 18 October 2004 12:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Doesn't ditching IE run contrary to the whole idea of accessibility and using Web standards? The point isn't to get people to switch from IE, but rather, to design in a way that will reach the broadest audience for years to come. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter Mark Harwood WebMail wrote: Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
well, IE is the bane of my life, and i wish everybody would just see the light and switch to Firefox :) but, when it comes down to it, the Web is about communication. commercial or personal, if your site falls apart for insert large percentage here of your audience, you're not communicating very well. and the ability to craft a site so that it can work effectively in a wide range of browsers is a mark of excellence in a web developer. On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:10:04 +0100, Mark Harwood webmail wrote: Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
On 18 Oct 2004, at 21:10, Mark Harwood wrote: Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Avoiding your question for just a second Would you intentionally build a car park that stopped Toyotas from entering? Remember that it is one Web for all people and all browsers. Some people *have* to use IE. I'm not defending IE. I know it is a pain to support in some cases and that the general consensus is that there are better browsers around. But I wouldn't want to make the Toyota drivers seem unwelcome, just because there are Ford cars available. This is very different from saying Ford rocks!. Now, to answer your question, should I put non-ie on my site?, I'd say no. I'm in favour of you *not* doing the extra work to avoid bugs, and I'm in favour of you promoting the browsers you like (rather than dissing the ones you don't). But that's just me. Dean ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:58 , john [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Doesn't ditching IE run contrary to the whole idea of accessibility and using Web standards? It does, but im not really ditching IE im more just refusing to add the fix's for th PNG-LOGO and sorting the margin/padding issuse with the headlines at the top. Guess im just being lazy and should really just spend 10mins and sort it out :/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
One of the pillars of Web Standards is that content should be Best Viewed With Any Browser. This principle is fundamental to Web Standards. We actually adhere to this principle when we use the CSS import directive to hide CSS from Netscape 4 so that it's poor support for CSS is not going to interfere with reading the content of a Web page. The idea being that everyone has equitable access to content even though it looks different in different browsers. Mark, in my opinion, you can code to the strengths on any browser so long as the content is equally accessible to all browsers. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com - Original Message - From: Mark Harwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE? Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Mark There are quite a few articles now in the mainstream media that expose the Skoda like qualities of IE, maybe you should link to these? Sydney Morning Herald ICON section quite regularly rates Opera and Moz as the best available. PC User Australia had a big article Why you shouldn't use IE - focused on security and poor CSS support. These would be quite good supporting material if the question comes up. Promotion of your work should still be browser independent, IMO. HTH James Mark Harwood WebMail wrote: Not commercialy, but personaly on your own blog sites are other little community sites? I've just redesigned my blog (www.phunky.co.uk) and in doing so i decided i was not going to touch some of the minor issuse that IE has with my site, although it would only take me a little bit of time to get it 100% in IE aswell why should i? Ive placed a small disclaimer on my site stateing why im NON-IE but my only worry is that new clients or outsourcing companies may see this and think The guy hates IE, he could be a git to work with (which i am :D) I just wanna know your view on ditching IE on purpose? Cheers Mark Harwood Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Instead of going negative, how about going positive? Most people don't know that they have a choice of browsers and they're scared that if they install a different one, that the computer will break. To help people understand that the browser world is wider than IE, I put this linked notice on my site. Why is this site best viewed with FireFox? Try it and experience the difference. Christie Mason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:35 , Christie Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Why is this site best viewed with FireFox? Try it and experience the difference. I do like this approach, and even tho i do link to Browserhappy.com and spreadfirefox i think the NON-IE bit should be reworked to promote the other browsers, as the issuses with IE are not major and do not stop people viewing the content i could get away with leaving them. Looks like this has been quite a intresting little discussion, this is the first time i have ever thought of dropping IE from a sites spec and im still tempted to do so, but some of you have pointed out the extact worrys i had if i did so... Cheers guys, as usual full of help :D Mark Harwood -- Phunky.co.uk / Xhtmlandcss.co.uk / Zinkmedia.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 22:14, Dean Jackson wrote: .. Would you intentionally build a car park that stopped Toyotas from entering? If there was a lot of Toyotas parking in my building and being that they all leaked oil in my car park and often their drivers scratched other peoples cars because of complete ignorance of anyone else, costing me a bucket load of money to maintain my car park.. not to mention the sad clients scratched cars, then yes I might consider banning Toyotas. Did I mention I hate analogies. ;) Regards Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] should you refuse to support IE?
Chris Blown wrote: Did I mention I hate analogies. ;) as in your expansion of the analogy you're blaming *users* of IE, rather than the developers that purely cater for IE and/or the programmers at MS who made the leaky car, i'd say it's not too accurate anyway ;) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
