Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a
tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for
accessibility reasons. So this:
a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a
a href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a
wouldn't work.
Perhaps
(a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a)
(a href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a)
Alternatively, you could use square ([,]) or angled (,)
brackets. In all cases, the containing characters, even without spaces,
semantically separate the edit and delete links from each other, as
well as the main entry.
Another idea is:
lidl
dtEntry/dt
ddEdit/dd
ddDelete/dd
/dl/li
And styled as:
li dd {
border-width : 0 1px;
border : solid #000;
float : left;
margin-right : 5px;
padding : 0 2px;
}
When style, the borders are your printable character, and unstyled,
it's the new-line and the indenting.
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
If you aren't going to use images nested in a tags for accessibility, why aren't you going to use a form? Surely the images are just a way of making the site look better, or appeal to the majority of users? I'm not sure what the page is for, but if you had a list of say 25 items, and I only wanted 10 of them, I'd need to follow 15 links, each time waiting for the new page to load, and personally I wouldn't bother. I think making it a form would actually make it more user-freindly for all your users, and encourage more people to complete the page. Just putting my oar in, Josh. -Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 June 2005 7:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Terrence Wood Subject: Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists I would argue that putting edit delete in front of every list item is more of a barrier to accessibility than the white space issue. I think you're referring to the Usability of the site to a proportion of disabled users, rather than the ability to access the page. But I see your point. The complexity of your interface increases by an order of magnitude: In a list of 25 items where I want the last item means I have to listen (and choose between) 50 links. 50 items equals 100 links etc. How about containing your list in a form, marking up the folders with radio's or checkboxes and choosing an action edit or delete (which should be a post action, but thats another story) at the end?. Although I understand why you are suggesting it, currently the majority of users I am addressing would have a better user experience if there were icons infront of each folder, rather than radio buttons. Radio buttons might make it more user-friendly for users with screenreaders, but for most users the icons will be the better option, I think. However, I will ensure that the ALT tags clearly identify what the link is for. regards Terrence Wood. On 19 Jun 2005, at 2:47 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. I would argue, though, that this checkpoint has purely technical reasons, and that the situation in which adjacent links can cause problems (as far as I remember, Netscape 4 in combination with Outspoken on Mac OS 9) is fairly uncommon nowadays, making it obsolete (as per the until user agents clause). Sure, it won't pass automated dumb testing, but I doubt that the vast majority of real users (even those with disabilities) will have any access problems if there is only a single space (or even nothing at all) between those links. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
Here the problem though: I want to display a couple of icons infront of each of the folders (Edit, Delete, ...). So my list actually looks like this: - Edit Delete Folder One - Edit Delete Subfolder One - Edit Delete Subfolder Two - Edit Delete Folder Two - Edit Delete Folder Three I've cobbled together this: http://www.bivia.com/sandbox/list-with-links/v1.0_span_goes_away.html The links are after, instead of before, but under the li text for consistent columnar presentation; an off-left skip link jumps you to the next list item. In this way, the text of the list item is read, then you can jump over the edit/delete stuff. Not sure about the wisdom of adding one link to skip two, but if you had more than two (edit, delete, verify, reorder, inquire, rename, foo, bar...) it might be good. I think that by forcing your links before the text you're hobbling yourself. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
There are benefits for all users stemming from Fitt's law (increased acquirable targets) and Hick's law (reduced complexity) using a form for file/folder lists. I have a file browser type example at http://dev.funkive.com/tests/jstest.php which works in FF and Safari (yet to be stressed tested in other browsers). It starts life as a form but is enhanced with js and css to simulate something closer to a desktop OS. regards Terrence Wood. On 20 Jun 2005, at 11:48 PM, Josh Rose wrote: If you aren't going to use images nested in a tags for accessibility, why aren't you going to use a form? Surely the images are just a way of making the site look better, or appeal to the majority of users? I'm not sure what the page is for, but if you had a list of say 25 items, and I only wanted 10 of them, I'd need to follow 15 links, each time waiting for the new page to load, and personally I wouldn't bother. I think making it a form would actually make it more user-freindly for all your users, and encourage more people to complete the page. Just putting my oar in, Josh. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
-Original Message- From: Ben Curtis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2005 2:47 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists Here the problem though: I want to display a couple of icons infront of each of the folders (Edit, Delete, ...). So my list actually looks like this: - Edit Delete Folder One - Edit Delete Subfolder One - Edit Delete Subfolder Two - Edit Delete Folder Two - Edit Delete Folder Three I think that by forcing your links before the text you're hobbling yourself. You mean because of the layout? I had planned to use css to make it look appropriately (all links lined up underneath each other on the left). But I don't mind moving them over to the right, either. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
-Original Message- From: Josh Rose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 June 2005 9:48 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists I'm not sure what the page is for, but if you had a list of say 25 items, and I only wanted 10 of them, I'd need to follow 15 links, each time waiting for the new page to load, and personally I wouldn't bother. I think making it a form would actually make it more user-freindly for all your users, and encourage more people to complete the page. The page will actually be used for a Content Management System. So you can imagine the folders to be sections of a website - the user can edit the names or delete them completely. The chance of the user wanting to delete multiple items at the same time is fairly slim (unless they decide to delete their entire website). And editing multiple items at the same time won't be possible. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
Clearly you have a good idea of what your user needs are, and by the sounds of it they won't be running around checking if your site passes some automated validation for accessibility. Build it so it works when you point and click if that is what your users need. Who cares if it passes WACG priority one or not --- there is not one CMS that does. regards Terrence Wood. On 21 Jun 2005, at 12:19 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: -Original Message- From: Josh Rose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 June 2005 9:48 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists I'm not sure what the page is for, but if you had a list of say 25 items, and I only wanted 10 of them, I'd need to follow 15 links, each time waiting for the new page to load, and personally I wouldn't bother. I think making it a form would actually make it more user-freindly for all your users, and encourage more people to complete the page. The page will actually be used for a Content Management System. So you can imagine the folders to be sections of a website - the user can edit the names or delete them completely. The chance of the user wanting to delete multiple items at the same time is fairly slim (unless they decide to delete their entire website). And editing multiple items at the same time won't be possible. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
I would argue that putting edit delete in front of every list item is more of a barrier to accessibility than the white space issue. The complexity of your interface increases by an order of magnitude: In a list of 25 items where I want the last item means I have to listen (and choose between) 50 links. 50 items equals 100 links etc. How about containing your list in a form, marking up the folders with radio's or checkboxes and choosing an action edit or delete (which should be a post action, but thats another story) at the end?. regards Terrence Wood. On 19 Jun 2005, at 2:47 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. I would argue, though, that this checkpoint has purely technical reasons, and that the situation in which adjacent links can cause problems (as far as I remember, Netscape 4 in combination with Outspoken on Mac OS 9) is fairly uncommon nowadays, making it obsolete (as per the until user agents clause). Sure, it won't pass automated dumb testing, but I doubt that the vast majority of real users (even those with disabilities) will have any access problems if there is only a single space (or even nothing at all) between those links. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
-Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 June 2005 7:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Terrence Wood Subject: Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists I would argue that putting edit delete in front of every list item is more of a barrier to accessibility than the white space issue. I think you're referring to the Usability of the site to a proportion of disabled users, rather than the ability to access the page. But I see your point. The complexity of your interface increases by an order of magnitude: In a list of 25 items where I want the last item means I have to listen (and choose between) 50 links. 50 items equals 100 links etc. How about containing your list in a form, marking up the folders with radio's or checkboxes and choosing an action edit or delete (which should be a post action, but thats another story) at the end?. Although I understand why you are suggesting it, currently the majority of users I am addressing would have a better user experience if there were icons infront of each folder, rather than radio buttons. Radio buttons might make it more user-friendly for users with screenreaders, but for most users the icons will be the better option, I think. However, I will ensure that the ALT tags clearly identify what the link is for. regards Terrence Wood. On 19 Jun 2005, at 2:47 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. I would argue, though, that this checkpoint has purely technical reasons, and that the situation in which adjacent links can cause problems (as far as I remember, Netscape 4 in combination with Outspoken on Mac OS 9) is fairly uncommon nowadays, making it obsolete (as per the until user agents clause). Sure, it won't pass automated dumb testing, but I doubt that the vast majority of real users (even those with disabilities) will have any access problems if there is only a single space (or even nothing at all) between those links. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
This strikes me as a tad list-obsessive - what would be wrong with simply inserting a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a and similarly for Delete? AFAIK that shouldn't pose any significant barriers to accessibility...? On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 10:08 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: I am currently working on a web application and I am trying to make it as accessible as possible. Now I am stuck with one problem where I cannot decide as to how to mark things up: I want to display a list of folders and subfolders. - Folder One - Subfolder One - Subfolder Two - Folder Two - Folder Three This is fairly simple and straight forward: I make it a ul with a couple of li's and nested lists. Here the problem though: I want to display a couple of icons infront of each of the folders (Edit, Delete, ...). So my list actually looks like this: - Edit Delete Folder One - Edit Delete Subfolder One - Edit Delete Subfolder Two - Edit Delete Folder Two - Edit Delete Folder Three Normally I would put the edit and delete into an unordered list to separate the links. But this won't work in this particular example, I think. My nested lists would clash with each other. I can't come up with any nice solution for this that adheres to web standards and makes things accessible. Any suggestions? Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the senders consent. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way. Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by the contents of this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 10:08 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Here the problem though: I want to display a couple of icons infront of each of the folders (Edit, Delete, ...). So my list actually looks like this: - Edit Delete Folder One - Edit Delete Subfolder One - Edit Delete Subfolder Two - Edit Delete Folder Two - Edit Delete Folder Three -Original Message- From: Joshua Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 19 June 2005 11:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists This strikes me as a tad list-obsessive - what would be wrong with simply inserting a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a and similarly for Delete? AFAIK that shouldn't pose any significant barriers to accessibility...? Yeah, I have got the feeling it is list-obsessive and I really hope there is a better way out of it. The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. So this: a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a a href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a wouldn't work. See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-divide-links (Checkpoint 10.5) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:01 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Yeah, I have got the feeling it is list-obsessive and I really hope there is a better way out of it. The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. So this: a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a a href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a wouldn't work. See: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-divide-links (Checkpoint 10.5) Yep, but is there anything inherently wrong with doing a href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a a href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a (note the space)? Failing that, how about something like this: ul li ul lia href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a/li lia href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a/li liFolder ul lia href=/edit title=Editimg src=edit.png alt=Edit //a/li lia href=/delete title=Deleteimg src=delete.png alt=Delete //a/li liSubfolder/li /ul /li /ul /li /ul IMO, the non-link example is not only far lighter in terms of markup, but also offers a similar degree of semantic integrity - that is, there is no significant relationship between the actual data (e.g. folder names) and the interface (e.g. edit/delete links) better represented through use of lists than simply with anchors. Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the senders consent. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way. Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by the contents of this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clash of nested lists
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: The reason I cannot simply put both icons into a tags is that they have to be separated by more than just space for accessibility reasons. I would argue, though, that this checkpoint has purely technical reasons, and that the situation in which adjacent links can cause problems (as far as I remember, Netscape 4 in combination with Outspoken on Mac OS 9) is fairly uncommon nowadays, making it obsolete (as per the until user agents clause). Sure, it won't pass automated dumb testing, but I doubt that the vast majority of real users (even those with disabilities) will have any access problems if there is only a single space (or even nothing at all) between those links. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
