Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Does that really matter? In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. In Firefox Cursor-Mode (F7) uses small text-cursor that isn't good for bad sighted people anyway. Opera with spatial navigation always adds background on focused links. I don't know how mac browsers deal with this though. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:09:23 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does that really matter? In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. In Firefox Cursor-Mode (F7) uses small text-cursor that isn't good for bad sighted people anyway. Opera with spatial navigation always adds background on focused links. I don't know how mac browsers deal with this though. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Hi, Where can I read up on these accessibility issues you've outlined? C On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 06:09 AM, Kornel Lesinski wrote: Does that really matter? In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. In Firefox Cursor-Mode (F7) uses small text-cursor that isn't good for bad sighted people anyway. Opera with spatial navigation always adds background on focused links. I don't know how mac browsers deal with this though. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ___ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
From: Kornel Lesinski Does that really matter? In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. Which is not always visible, depending on specific background colour and or background pattern/image IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. Well, the onus is on the user in this case to use something other than IE. But still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't add additional features and hooks for non-IE users. In Firefox Cursor-Mode (F7) uses small text-cursor that isn't good for bad sighted people anyway. Not quite sure what you mean by the anyway. Is it a so why bother? The small text cursor is similar to many other applications (heck, I'm typing this in Outlook with a surprisingly similar cursor). Also, the cursor scales in accordance with the height of the current text / block it's located. And, by the same rationale, if you increase the font size (which you more than likely would, if you had sight problems), the cursor will also scale accordingly. Oh, and to state the obvious, it blinks as well... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:09 AM, Kornel Lesinski wrote: Does that really matter? Yes, focus highlighting does matter. I come across this daily -- and I'm a keyboard user by choice... In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. Which isn't exactly prominent - it provides a faint outline around the element. Changing the background and text colours in the CSS is much more prominent and is easier to spot. Besides, we add :hover effects to things for mouse users - why wouldn't we also provide similar benefit to keyboard users? IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. Right, however, IE (mistakenly, I suspect) treats :active the same as :focus. Adding a separate rule for IE and :active will provide the benefits for IE keyboard users... For example: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Sorry about that -- it appears that pressing enter while holding down the
control key sends the message ( a new keystroke I didn't know about...)
Here's the complete message I was trying to send:
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:09 AM, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
Does that really matter?
Yes, focus highlighting does matter. I come across this daily -- and I'm a
keyboard user by choice, not someone who has no choice but to use the
keyboard...
In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway.
Which isn't exactly prominent - it provides a faint outline around the
element. Changing the background and text colours in the CSS is much more
prominent and is easier to spot. Besides, we add :hover effects to things
for mouse users - why wouldn't we also provide similar benefit to keyboard
users?
IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can
help.
Right, however, IE (mistakenly, I suspect) treats :active the same as
:focus. Adding a separate rule for IE and :active will provide the benefits
for IE keyboard users...
For example:
a:focus {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
a:hover {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
a:active {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
So, please, please, if you want to make your sites more accessible to
keyboard users, add :focus and :active rules to match your :hover rule.
Best regards,
Derek.
--
Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 613.599.9784; toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
Web Accessibility: http://www.wats.ca
Personal: http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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RE: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:19 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
And you can group the above and save yourself repetition. In one
of my stylesheets, for instance, I have
#navbar li a:focus,
#navbar li a:hover,
#navbar a:active {
background: #fbfbfb;
}
I seem to recall Tommy talking about a problem when all three are specified
in the same rule, but I can't recall right now. Though perhaps it was only
mentioned and never resolved. Might be able to find it in the forum archives
somewhere... http://www.accessifyforum.com
I'll let you/everyone know if I find anything
Best regards,
Derek.
--
Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 613.599.9784; toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
Web Accessibility: http://www.wats.ca
Personal: http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Hi,
Would you explain the abbreviation IR and what is the name, and where
can I read about this rule:
a[href]:focus {-moz-outline: 2px solid -moz-mac-focusring;}
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 05:38 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
IR techniques.
a[href]:focus {-moz-outline: 2px solid -moz-mac-focusring;}
___
Knowing is not enough, you must apply;
willing is not enough, you must do.
---Bruce Lee
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Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
I'm not sure what IR refers to. Here's the the CSS rule explained:
a[href]:focus { /* select any anchor with an attribute href that has
focus */
-moz-outline: /* mozilla implementation of a non standard, or non
ratified CSS property. see below for explantion. Outline creates a
border around the object that doesn't disturb the flow of the document */
2px solid -moz-mac-focusring; /* outline has the same properties as
border, the color is a moz extension that displays the OS focus-ring
color (c.f. IE/MAC and Safari focusrings) */
}
A discussion about CSS vendor specific CSS rules is here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-css3-syntax-20030813/#vendor-specific
In short it says:
Although proprietary extensions should be avoided in general, there are
situations (experiments, implementations of W3C drafts that have not yet
reached Candidate Recommendation, intra-nets, debugging, etc.) where it
is convenient to add some nonstandard, i.e., proprietary identifiers to
a CSS style sheet.
To avoid clashes with with future specs vendors should prefix their
rules with vendor ids.
known id's include:
# mso- (Microsoft Corporation)
# -moz- (The Mozilla Organization)
# -opera- (Opera Software)
# -atsc- (Advanced Television Standards Committee)
# -wap- (The WAP Forum)
# -k (or is it -khtml?) Safari, Konqueror.
cheers Terrence Wood.
On 2004-12-01 8:13 AM, Chris Kennon wrote:
Hi,
Would you explain the abbreviation IR and what is the name, and where
can I read about this rule:
a[href]:focus {-moz-outline: 2px solid -moz-mac-focusring;}
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 05:38 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
IR techniques.
a[href]:focus {-moz-outline: 2px solid -moz-mac-focusring;}
___
Knowing is not enough, you must apply;
willing is not enough, you must do.
---Bruce Lee
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Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
The only problem I'm aware of is that you lose the ability to provide
feedback the a link has been activated.
If this is important then send IE it's own active rule:
* html a:active{}
cheers
Terrence Wood.
On 2004-12-01 4:50 AM, Derek Featherstone wrote:
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:19 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
And you can group the above and save yourself repetition. In one
of my stylesheets, for instance, I have
#navbar li a:focus,
#navbar li a:hover,
#navbar a:active {
background: #fbfbfb;
}
I seem to recall Tommy talking about a problem when all three are specified
in the same rule, but I can't recall right now. Though perhaps it was only
mentioned and never resolved. Might be able to find it in the forum archives
somewhere... http://www.accessifyforum.com
--
You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
I interpreted 'IR' to stand for 'image replacement', such as FIR and sFIR et al. Cheers, Kevin Futter On 1/12/04 7:50 AM, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure what IR refers to. Here's the the CSS rule explained: snip -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:19 AM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
And you can group the above and save yourself repetition. In one
of my stylesheets, for instance, I have
#navbar li a:focus,
#navbar li a:hover,
#navbar a:active {
background: #fbfbfb;
}
I seem to recall Tommy talking about a problem when all three are specified
in the same rule, but I can't recall right now.
The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5
also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration
that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will
effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE. I seem to
remember Opera in smallscreen mode choking on that combined rule as
well, but I think that's a seperate discussion. :)
Andrew.
http://leftjustified.net/
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Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Andrew Krespanis wrote: The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5 also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE Hmm...it doesn't seem to affect IE 5 or 5.5 (admittedly using skyx' multiple IE installations on a Win2k machine natively running 6) on www.salford.ac.uk though. Maybe just depends on a variety of factors, not sure... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Same results here for IE (similar set up) on my own test page, and I don't see any bugs in Opera 7PC, 7.5MAC normal and SSR mode. Opera's SSR is pretty aggressive and not many styles (if any) stick, so the lack of :focus support in this mode is to be expected as a feature, not a bug. Terrence Wood. On 2004-12-01 11:59 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Andrew Krespanis wrote: The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5 also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE Hmm...it doesn't seem to affect IE 5 or 5.5 (admittedly using skyx' multiple IE installations on a Win2k machine natively running 6) on www.salford.ac.uk though. Maybe just depends on a variety of factors, not sure... -- You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Hmm...it doesn't seem to affect IE 5 or 5.5 (admittedly using skyx' multiple IE installations on a Win2k machine natively running 6) on www.salford.ac.uk though. Maybe just depends on a variety of factors, not sure... Hmmm indeed ;) When I get home from work I'll find the exact bug and link up a test page. There is a bug in there somewhere, I remember losing sleep over it in July...well, almost. Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
I wasn't getting any problems with www.caexpo.com.au either (tabbing thru still highlights, like hover), I was testing using multiple IE installations on single PC as well though. Tim Hill Computer Associates Graphic Artist tel: +612 9937 0792 fax: +612 9937 0546 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2004 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04) Andrew Krespanis wrote: The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5 also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE Hmm...it doesn't seem to affect IE 5 or 5.5 (admittedly using skyx' multiple IE installations on a Win2k machine natively running 6) on www.salford.ac.uk though. Maybe just depends on a variety of factors, not sure... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5 also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE. oh, dodgy old IE :/ remember Opera in smallscreen mode choking on that combined rule as well, but I think that's a seperate discussion. :) Probably old version. I've tested latest and seems to parse all CSS2.1. Ofcourse styles unsuitable for SSR are ignored or lost in reformatting. Without SSR latest mobile Opera handles CSS Edge demo pages*, many literarymoose experiments and even displays CSS lines hack - http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rotatingStar.html *) can't test pure css menus, as :hover is impossible to archieve on keyboard-only browser. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
On 1 Dec 2004, at 4:13 am, Chris Kennon wrote:
Would you explain the abbreviation IR and what is the name, and where
can I read about this rule:
a[href]:focus {-moz-outline: 2px solid -moz-mac-focusring;}
IR stands for Image Replacement - like the FIR or sFir methods, where
CSS (and/or Js) is used to replace text with an image...
Terrence already explained the -moz-outline and -moz-mac-focusring
thingies
Note that the -moz-outline property is functionally equivalent to the
css2.1 outline property, which is supported by IE Mac and Safari, and
Opera 7.54.
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#propdef-outline
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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