> Students who rely on that will never really learn.
sad but true.
being a student has nothing to do with the willingness to learn, or to
put an effort to probe and discover.
even more reason why the extra rare curiosity should be rewarded, e.g.
by making information available for the one who
Students who rely on that will never really learn.
From my perspective, most supposedly modern systems have been a bigger
waste of time than some of the older ones.
Windoze, Linux, etc. in some ways still have not caught up to features
that Multics and Plan 9, among other systems, had to
04.02.2022 17:29:55 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
On Friday, 4 February 2022, at 4:30 PM, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for
them? ;)
My platform isn't one for teaching programing its for teaching other
subjects like math,
On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
>
> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them? ;)
>
In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining
characteristic of a student
khm
On Friday, 4 February 2022, at 4:30 PM, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them? ;)
My platform isn't one for teaching programing its for teaching other subjects
like math, electronics, statics and so on. It's neither my goal nor the
I could see some value in students learning a truly distributed system if
they are CS majors looking to specialize in scientific computing or
distributed processing work but otherwise it would generally be a huge
waste of their time. They would probably be far better off learning one of
the modern
> There is no benefit for the students to learn how to realize such a platform
In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them? ;)
--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink:
On Wednesday, 2 February 2022, at 7:22 PM, ron minnich wrote:
> This one statement: "Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD
systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain." is
completely wrong. I just asked the people who were there, on TUHS, and
they confirmed my memory: DARPA
This one statement: "Berkeley stopped their distribution of BSD
systems right after they were forced to remove the toolchain." is
completely wrong. I just asked the people who were there, on TUHS, and
they confirmed my memory: DARPA funding for BSD support ended in 1995,
and that was probably the
Quoth Wes Kussmaul :
>
> Hiro, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head.
>
> So, how do you add rationality and reliability to the
> dpkg-app/play-store idea?
>
> Answer: emulate the ways this has been done for centuries in the
> physical world.
I'd like to think we've progressed past
On 2/1/22 17:47, hiro wrote:
I believe that David is right that it was a combination of running on
really low-end hardware (in the early days, Torvalds accepted patches for
just about anything), and a similarly low barrier to entry (others
elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, "the
> I believe that David is right that it was a combination of running on
> really low-end hardware (in the early days, Torvalds accepted patches for
> just about anything), and a similarly low barrier to entry (others
> elsewhere have quipped about having to appease, "the Gods of BSD" to get
>
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 1 February 2022, at 3:12 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
>
> This isn't really on-topic for 9fans, but I find this hard to believe.
> Linux used the exact same compiler suite, and became wildly successful
> while the
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 10:00 PM, ron minnich wrote:
> That happened about 10 years earlier. The effort I am talking about
with jmk was 2013; the dustup with Theo was circa 2003:
Thanks for sharing those facts.
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 3:26 PM, David Leimbach wrote:
> I haven’t
On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 8:10 AM David Leimbach via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:
> > On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> > And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as
> wide spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite
> On Jan 29, 2022, at 8:03 AM, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> And I believe that the reason why NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are not as wide
> spread as Linux was the lack of a compiler suite conforming to the BSD license
For some people it’s because they didn’t have a math
On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 6:19 PM ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> As far as I recall OpenBSD (Theo dR) was interested in BSD licensed compilers
> at that time and that didn't happen.
That happened about 10 years earlier. The effort I am talking about
with jmk was 2013; the dustup
Le Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 08:44:05AM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans a écrit :
> On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 8:55 AM, tlaronde wrote:
> > The lacking piece is the end: converting DVI to something else than PS
> and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a
> "MetaPost" generating
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 8:55 AM, tlaronde wrote:
> The lacking piece is the end: converting DVI to something else than PS
and extending DVI to include drawing primitives so that there is a
"MetaPost" generating DVI (Metadraw). The other points are already
addressed.
Perhaps xdvi is a good
Le Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:48:47PM +0100, hiro a écrit :
> > I personally would say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous and
> > makes a distribution depending on this feature highly dangerous for
> > developers.
>
> yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 2:45 AM, ron minnich wrote:
> The late jmk and I labored over a period of many months in 2013 to get
Plan 9 out under a BSD license. In the end, the copyright holder at
that time required that we distribute it, via UC Berkeley, under the
GPL. No choice. It was that
"Why do you think p9f asked for a relicensing of plan9 while it was
already gpl licensed a few years ago ? Both are redistributable but
the MIT version is also usable for closed source commercial projects
while the GPL version is not. Does this matter ? Yes of course it
matters for people or
even if it won't be used, it can still serve as example. there's sense
in that for some people.
there aren't many real-world products/solutions based on plan9, so
people who are interested to learn from others don't have so much
choice.
every addition can be potentially useful for somebody in the
What I meant was that there is no sense in sharing the code for a special
purpose kiosk app.
For people who are interested search for
gpl infringement tv boxes
You will find many examples of companies who took gpl too lightly and got sued
by FSF. The more users a product has which used GPL
> Maybe I misunderstood something about licensing stuff but, can't you just
> distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to
> the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open
> space, under some open source license? I mean, does open source (gpl,
>
On Sunday, 30 January 2022, at 12:14 AM, sirjofri wrote:
> Maybe I misunderstood something about licensing stuff but, can't you just
distribute the working build product (binaries etc, without source) to
the TV set (or kiosk) and keep the source in a completely separate open
space, under some
29.01.2022 23:23:32 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
Lets take a tv set as an example for a kiosk application thats not far
away. What benefit does the user of a tv have if I put the sourcecode
of the tv set into the mounted flash device ? Sure everybody could
benefit from reading the
> I don't get the argumentations here. Everyone was happy that plan9 was
> relicensed as MIT last year. If no one is allowed to make closed source
> distributions of plan9 based systems than why were all unhappy with the
> prior licenses.
You're confusing the license and expressed wishes.
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 11:14 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> Note that djvu would compress things very nicely. A full page
300dpi magazine color page that may be 25MB uncompressed will
compress down to 40K-80K or so and be very legible, much more
so compared a similar sized jpeg compressed
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:42 PM, hiro wrote:
> Proof of concepts have value, too :)
It's quite funny what kind of stuff somebody might dig up in 2 decades
and learn something unexpected from it, happens here all the time.
I'm not saying I will personally have a need for the system, but
Note that djvu would compress things very nicely. A full page
300dpi magazine color page that may be 25MB uncompressed will
compress down to 40K-80K or so and be very legible, much more
so compared a similar sized jpeg compressed image.
The current OSS djvu library is GPL but as far as I know the
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 10:18 PM, Steve Simon wrote:
> Someone doesn’t like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not tell them they
> are wrong.
And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is their
decision.
Thanks for your support. I mean it.
I don't get
> links to associated projects. Therefore I asked for your prefered form of
> acknowledgement.
None needed whatsoever. Nobody here needs to force this extra visibility.
Just think about the students and what helps them most. We might
disagree, but it's your project, so you'll have to take all the
do we have any say if we don't accept this?
don't pretend there are any actions taken against this person's interest.
personally i'm seeing missed opportunity in education.
i care about education and try to encourage ways of sharing knowledge.
if you don't like it, don't waste your time with such
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 9:44 PM, hiro wrote:
> if the odd one out of the students learns plan9 you think that's not
worth their while? then why do you use plan9 yourself? i would have
loved to have a teacher in uni that uses plan9.
I don't can't and won't hide the fact that my virtual
good grief people.
Someone doesn’t like GPLs, can we not just accept this and not tell them they
are wrong.
And if they wish not to release the source for their work, again that is their
decision.
its one thing to point out the (possibly) unseen side effects of these
decisions but lets just
> I personally would say using page for displaying pdf or ps is dangerous and
> makes a distribution depending on this feature highly dangerous for
> developers.
yes, it's very dangerous in terms of licensing. i suggest you rewrite
ghostscript as gs/pdf reading ability is very important for most
> There is no benefit for the
> students to learn how to realize such a platform and thats also not the goal
> of this project.
maybe your stuff doesn't work and this way they can at least help you
(or helpthemselves) fix it faster.
what makes you think everything will work and your students are
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:58 PM, cinap_lenrek wrote:
> on the other hand, calling the ghostscript interpreter as a
external program, i dont think that would force your program
kiosk to be gpl licensed (for example page(1) would be in
the same situation... it calls all kinds of external
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 7:12 PM, Grant Defayette wrote:
> Honestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These
> kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and
> it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve? You
i dont really get your problem.
my understanding is that the idea of the gpl is that if you
derive work from a gpl licensed project is that that change
will also be under gpl and you make the sourcecode available.
no?
whenever we bugfix something in ghostscript, that change will
also be under
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 5:56 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> Also note that plan9 c compilers are likely no faster than tcc. And there will
> be other challenges.
My kiosk application using plan 9 and its compilers is already working. There
were no problems changing from llvm to plan9
Honestly I really don't see the issue with an 800mb network image. These
kiosk machines and network should be able to handle that with no issues and
it should fit on a disk easily. What constraint are you trying to solve?
You want to switch from an easy to maintain by any Unix expert with fully
Quoth Bakul Shah :
> In fact you should have a script that prepares the image.
Yes. See:
/sys/lib/sysconfig/proto/distproto
/sys/lib/dist/mkfile
--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink:
If there is no programming to be done by the kiosk users, why do you need
any compilers? Similarly you can remove many other things from your
kiosk image. In fact you should have a script that prepares the image.
xorg needs llvm only for *building* mesa-dri. If you are just using prebuilt
On 1/29/22 08:03, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote:
why should it be closed source? you're gonna seriously put the effort
to remove all the traces of source files?
I am consequently avoiding infecting licenses in my projects and my
distributions
29.01.2022 15:08:11 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
The system part regarding Freebsd and X11 can be reduced by using plan9
dramatically. My own software has a few MB. In the plan9 distribution I
will use a new image format based on horizontal scanlines using 256
colors. This has an
On Saturday, 29 January 2022, at 2:24 PM, hiro wrote:
> i don't buy the argument that source code would be too big. for just
one subject in school i had to download many gigabytes of quartus,
over a decade ago. our source is nowhere near that big.
A kiosk application for educational purposes in
i never cared about the gpl license. it didn't improve anything as
it's less permissive than we had before.
i still see a risk when math engineers will be barred
access to the sourcecode.
maybe they would find a beautiful solution by changing a few lines of
code, allowing you to improve your
On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 10:59 PM, hiro wrote:
> why should it be closed source?
you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of source files?
This kiosk app is meant for students in math, electrotechnics, mechanics ...
its a closed area network where only registered
why should it be closed source?
you're gonna seriously put the effort to remove all the traces of source files?
why not just keep the source so people can learn about the software
that they are using?!
students are supposed to learn, no?
On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
On Friday, 28 January 2022, at 4:23 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> None of these prohibit redistribution. Feel free to delete them from
your copy.
I'm intending to distribute a closed source binary release as a kiosk
application which will be used as a graphical terminal for students. So
anything
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> Thanks for your hint ori,
>
> After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic
> commands (libs) :
>
> Xen (9f)
> diff (9f,l9)
> patch (9f, l9)
> ghostscript (9f, l9)
> mp3dec (9f, l9)
> lzip (l9)
>
>
On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9
> (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms.
>
Any font you realy, really can't live without?
> Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries,
Thanks for your hint ori,
After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic
commands (libs) :
Xen (9f)
diff (9f,l9)
patch (9f, l9)
ghostscript (9f, l9)
mp3dec (9f, l9)
lzip (l9)
9f ... 9font
l9 ... legacy9
I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be
Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the fonts.
> I'm using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version of
> 9front.
>
> My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries from
>
I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the fonts. I'm
using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version of
9front.
My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries from
9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs
yes, but it's ok to distribute
On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> Thanks hiro.
>
> Regarding ghostscript :
>
> In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9
>
>> Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the
>> release of Plan 9. Minor changes were made to
Thanks hiro.
Regarding ghostscript :
In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9
> Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the
> release of Plan 9. Minor changes were made to the sources to
> accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE library and to
> produce Plan 9
no, as far as i know, just those B fonts in particular are non-free.
i think the ghostscript code can be distributed without any issues.
9front policy is that all new code is MIT.
On 1/27/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as
I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9
(9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms.
Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on the
latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied MIT-licence ?
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