Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 21:42, Lucio De Re wrote: [snip] > > Just my perspective. I'd like to hear how Vic sees this kind of cyber > archeology. Or anyone else's views, for that matter. I don't have much to say about cyber archeology. I am simply grateful to see Plan 9 (4th edition), 9front, 9legacy, and other distributions have an open-source license. There is comfort knowing we can modify and create. Best wishes for a prosperous and happy new year. Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M2f725dba508f6b7568a2d04e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
yeah, this mostly fits my experience. usable hardware has become virtually free. the result being that people throw them at me and i have so many computers that i can use a dedicated one for every little project. the only reason for me to ever consider newer gear (like rpi or modern thinkpads) is power efficiency. but i am able to hold out for the time being. i certainly think that running plan9 on classic hardware has been very enjoyable, esp. since the 9front bootloader fixed booting from all the IDE ports. you could say 9front is most classical plan9 bec. it boots. On 12/31/21, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 20:55, hiro wrote: >> what makes it enjoyable hardware? when is it classic? anything that's >> older than 10y or what? > > I suppose classic could be any x86 based computer system that came out > about the same time as Plan 9 fourth edition. Someone once referred to Plan > 9 fourth edition as being classic, so I borrowed the notion. > >> it's surely fun to install plan9 on a hundred random computers and get >> lucky and have everything work. but that's just not been my >> experience. >> >> so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware >> avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. > > Having a used computer hardware store five minutes away which sells and buys > old hardware makes the pain of trial and error less painful. If something > does not work, just sell it back to the store. Intel desktop motherboards > circa 2003 work very well. I recently purchased an Intel motherboard with > CPU & CPU fan (1,000 yen), video card (1000 yen), a 400 Watt PSU (300 > yen), a CD-ROM (300 yen), and 1.5 GB of RAM (300 yen). A 1,000 yen is > approximately $8.69 USD for those reading this. Also, I purchased a > complete, working Dell workstation (2003) for 1,000 yen that works well as a > terminal. With hardware this inexpensive, my primary concern has been to > ensure that I can back up and restore data. > >> just curious what kind of "classic" you're going for, i wasn't trying >> to chastise you. IDE isn't *that* old either. we have other people >> playing with pdp emulators. > > Yes, Dennis was kind enough to give me and another fellow working on the > Simh emulator a copy of 8th Edition UNIX labeled TAPE. Good times. > >> in my experience with those expensive energy prices where i live the >> only thing expensive would be if you keep a lot of PCs running at the >> same time 24/7. > > In Kanagawa prefecture (Japan) where I live, energy prices are expensive > during the day and slightly less expensive during the late evening hours. > With three machines, firewall, and switch, running 24/7, the cost of > electricity has been about 5,000 yen extra a month to run a Plan 9 system. > > There are many reasons why I find Plan 9 enjoyable. Every time someone asks, > I seem to give yet another reason as to why. The cost of getting started, > the return on investment, the challenge, the sense of accomplishment of > writing a book with acme, helping others get their Plan 9 system up and > running to name a few reasons. Also, I enjoy writing other Plan 9 users and > asking for advice and coming away with the feeling of camaraderie between > long-time Plan 9 users. I've met a lot of great people along the way. Many > of my friends (Plan 9 users) have since passed away, but the memories of > them remain. I suppose using Plan 9 reminds me of happier times when I use > it. > > 明けましておめでとうございます。 > Happy New Year, > > Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M59f7cfa81771a4924f4db915 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 20:55, hiro wrote: > what makes it enjoyable hardware? when is it classic? anything that's > older than 10y or what? I suppose classic could be any x86 based computer system that came out about the same time as Plan 9 fourth edition. Someone once referred to Plan 9 fourth edition as being classic, so I borrowed the notion. > it's surely fun to install plan9 on a hundred random computers and get > lucky and have everything work. but that's just not been my > experience. > > so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware > avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. Having a used computer hardware store five minutes away which sells and buys old hardware makes the pain of trial and error less painful. If something does not work, just sell it back to the store. Intel desktop motherboards circa 2003 work very well. I recently purchased an Intel motherboard with CPU & CPU fan (1,000 yen), video card (1000 yen), a 400 Watt PSU (300 yen), a CD-ROM (300 yen), and 1.5 GB of RAM (300 yen). A 1,000 yen is approximately $8.69 USD for those reading this. Also, I purchased a complete, working Dell workstation (2003) for 1,000 yen that works well as a terminal. With hardware this inexpensive, my primary concern has been to ensure that I can back up and restore data. > just curious what kind of "classic" you're going for, i wasn't trying > to chastise you. IDE isn't *that* old either. we have other people > playing with pdp emulators. Yes, Dennis was kind enough to give me and another fellow working on the Simh emulator a copy of 8th Edition UNIX labeled TAPE. Good times. > in my experience with those expensive energy prices where i live the > only thing expensive would be if you keep a lot of PCs running at the > same time 24/7. In Kanagawa prefecture (Japan) where I live, energy prices are expensive during the day and slightly less expensive during the late evening hours. With three machines, firewall, and switch, running 24/7, the cost of electricity has been about 5,000 yen extra a month to run a Plan 9 system. There are many reasons why I find Plan 9 enjoyable. Every time someone asks, I seem to give yet another reason as to why. The cost of getting started, the return on investment, the challenge, the sense of accomplishment of writing a book with acme, helping others get their Plan 9 system up and running to name a few reasons. Also, I enjoy writing other Plan 9 users and asking for advice and coming away with the feeling of camaraderie between long-time Plan 9 users. I've met a lot of great people along the way. Many of my friends (Plan 9 users) have since passed away, but the memories of them remain. I suppose using Plan 9 reminds me of happier times when I use it. 明けましておめでとうございます。 Happy New Year, Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M74996ee2514e451da2ad37fb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On 12/31/21, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware > avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. > The Lenovo Thinkpad T68 I managed to lay my hands on wasn't that cheap and came with an Atheros based wi-fi card. So, yes one has to be picky. I think I can replace the card, but it won't come cheaply. SSD and memory are a hassle, too. I've had an HP Pavilion for long enough to wear the lettering on some popular keys away and only discovered recently that in fact it will run 9front out of the box. Legacy doesn't seem to support XHCI (USB) and I have no idea quite how that connects to both the ethernet and the wi-fi adapters, that's a research project by itself; unlike what I imagine drives Vic, I like to know that I can complete a task within a reasonable time and my poor knowledge means little does get accomplished around here. But I do enjoy the rare achievement when I get that right (my Plan 9 workstation uses freefonts through fontsrv, hardly perfect, but I can choose from a very broad range of fonts - not that I need to, mind you, it's just that I have yet to find a satisfactory font, Ubuntu comes close). 9atom can shut down all the hardware I boot it on, neither legacy nor 9front can do the same, again, on the hardware I own (and I have some old stuff lying around). I have little idea how to compare the three kernels as they have diverged rather significantly, based on the source code. I do wish I could propagate my preferences into a single Plan 9 kernel release, I find the divergence very frustrating. Full disclosure: I don't "run" 9atom on anything. I can see where 9front has the edge, by quite a margin, and I hesitate to suggest that it has veered off the Plan 9 tradition to accommodate the PC complexities, without quite addressing the real objectives of PC platforms: web browsing, office document handling and gaming. I don't believe that any descendant of Plan 9 can retain simplicity and fulfil those needs. When it comes to "research", though, specially slightly unfocussed personal satisfaction type of research, I find legacy - which I have known since early in the 1990s, I own a 2ed CD set - more true to its own philosophy. Like Hiro, I don't for one moment want to chastise 9front users, I can see why their aims are very different from my own. I am however entitled to pursue mine, with no need to draw insignificant comparisons that can so quickly devolve into pissing contests. Just my perspective. I'd like to hear how Vic sees this kind of cyber archeology. Or anyone else's views, for that matter. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-Mda6222ee0cc841b923ca9f0e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
what makes it enjoyable hardware? when is it classic? anything that's older than 10y or what? it's surely fun to install plan9 on a hundred random computers and get lucky and have everything work. but that's just not been my experience. so instead i learned to be a little bit picky about the hardware avoiding having to write drivers for everything that doesn't work. just curious what kind of "classic" you're going for, i wasn't trying to chastise you. IDE isn't *that* old either. we have other people playing with pdp emulators. in my experience with those expensive energy prices where i live the only thing expensive would be if you keep a lot of PCs running at the same time 24/7. On 12/31/21, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 03:01, hiro wrote: >> let's not pretend there's something great that you would miss out on >> without the combination of IDE hardware and the half-assed support for >> it in 4th edition. >> >> i don't know what aspect exactly of "classic" computing motivates you >> to recommend this struggle, vick. > > With 9front cancel culture/tribalism aside, I find making "classic" Plan 9 > work on hardware to be enjoyable. It is an inexpensive hobby and the sense > of discovery is still there. I never thought that I'd have to justify my > use of Plan 9 on 9fans. > > Happy New Year! > > Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M4872739044c6fba283487067 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Boot CD chokes
On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, at 03:01, hiro wrote: > let's not pretend there's something great that you would miss out on > without the combination of IDE hardware and the half-assed support for > it in 4th edition. > > i don't know what aspect exactly of "classic" computing motivates you > to recommend this struggle, vick. With 9front cancel culture/tribalism aside, I find making "classic" Plan 9 work on hardware to be enjoyable. It is an inexpensive hobby and the sense of discovery is still there. I never thought that I'd have to justify my use of Plan 9 on 9fans. Happy New Year! Vester "Vic" Thacker -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5888591114a7cf34-M07b92d4db72f39aa7b52f195 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
