[abcusers] Abacus printing problem
I've reported in the past a print problem for abacus (it prints only parts of the score (- the key, time signature, the notes but not the tails, the bar lines but not the staves). I've tried to print something else on an other computer with an other printer (Canon BJC-210, the first time it was an old HP) and it's exactly the same problem. Has anyone who downloaded Abacus succeded in printing something with a printer other than an Epson ? A minor bug also, I had a tune with a comment after the key K:C % transposed from G after loading in abacus, I get then : K:C%transposedfromG ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: Abacus printing problem
Eric Forgeot wrote - I've reported in the past a print problem for abacus ... Unfortunately, I can only test with the printer I've got. I'll enquire amongst my beta testers, but at the moment, Eric is the only person reporting problems. Anybody else? Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: Can someone explain why first note determines length is better than shortest determines length. A counter example that doesn;t work the other way would be nice, especially if it were not contrived. Hear, hear! Can anyone find us that example? So two of the most used* abc programs, Muse and AbcMus, both use the shortest determines length method, which seems to work well. I've had no complaints so far. Have you, Laurie? Do we really have to change it? * This is my assumption, since both are for Windows, and both are user friendly. Of course Abc2win would be another of the most used programs. Is it legal abc to have a rest in a chord? Hm, why not? AbcMus handles them. (Bach's prelude no.1 comes to mind) The following works fine in AbcMus (I know I should rewrite it using multiple voices, but they weren't around yet in abc when I transcribed this). Anyway, it clearly shows that rests should be allowed in chords. X:1 T:Praeludium I C:J.S. Bach B:Das Wohltemperierte Clavier Z:Abc by Henrik Norbeck M:C L:1/16 Q:1/4=80 K:C %%midi program 0 (piano) [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce| [C8z] [D7z] Ad fAdf [C8z] [D7z] Ad fAdf| [B,8z] [D7z] Gd fGdf [B,8z] [D7z] Gd fGdf| [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce| [C8z] [E7z] Ae aAea [C8z] [E7z] Ae aAea| [C8z] [D7z] Ad ^fAd^f [C8z] [D7z] Ad ^fAd^f| [B,8z] [D7z] Gd gGdg [B,8z] [D7z] Gd gGdg| [B,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc [B,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc| [A,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc [A,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc| [D,8z] [A,7z] D^F cD^Fc [D,8z] [A,7z] D^F cD^Fc| [G,8z] [B,7z] DG BDGB [G,8z] [B,7z] DG BDGB| [G,8z] [_B,7z] EG _dEG_d [G,8z] [_B,7z] EG _dEG_d| [F,8z] [A,7z] DA dDAd [F,8z] [A,7z] DA dDAd| [F,8z] [_A,7z] DF BDFB [F,8z] [_A,7z] DF BDFB| [E,8z] [G,7z] CG cCGc [E,8z] [G,7z] CG cCGc| [E,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF [E,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF| [D,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF [D,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,G [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,G| [C,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE [C,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE| [C,8z] [G,7z] _B,C E_B,CE [C,8z] [G,7z] _B,C E_B,CE| [F,,8z] [F,7z] A,C EA,CE [F,,8z] [F,7z] A,C EA,CE| [^F,,8z] [C,7z] A,C _EA,C_E [^F,,8z] [C,7z] A,C _EA,C_E| [_A,,8z] [F,7z] B,C DB,CD [_A,,8z] [F,7z] B,C DB,CD| [G,,8z] [F,7z] G,B, DG,B,D [G,,8z] [F,7z] G,B, DG,B,D| [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F| [G,,8z] [_E,7z] A,C ^FA,C^F [G,,8z] [_E,7z] A,C ^FA,C^F| [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C GG,CG [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C GG,CG| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F| [C,,8z] [C,7z] G,_B, EG,_B,E [C,,8z] [C,7z] G,_B, EG,_B,E| [C,,16z] [C,15z] F,A, CFCA, CA,F,A, F,D,F,D,| [C,,16z] [B,,15z] GB dfdB dBGB DFED| [C,,16C,16E16G16c16]|] Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/ My home page http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abcmus/ AbcMus player program http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abc.htm 1600 ABC tunes http://surf.to/blackthorn Irish trad music band http://www.rfod.se/folklink/ Links to Swedish music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Henrik Norbert wrote - So two of the most used* abc programs, Muse and AbcMus, both use the shortest determines length method, which seems to work well. I've had no complaints so far. Have you, Laurie? Do we really have to change it? But a few days ago he wrote - Now that I understand what you mean I agree that first-listed note is the best alternative. BTW, AbcMus currently implements the shortest note alternative, but I could easily change it to first-listed note. I had launched Abacus using highest note and some people raised objections. After some discussion in which the case was put for both shortest and longest I thought we had arrived at a consensus for first-listed note on the grounds that this made no assumptions about the music at all. I changed the development version of Abacus accordingly. If there really is a better case for shortest note, then fair enough but I would like to see a definite agreement before I bother to change it again. Better case, as far as I am concerned, means what is best for the users and for abc as a whole, not what is least trouble for the developers. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Well, I can think of a simple example of how one might use this: [A4G2E2]2[F2D2] This would have a 4-count melody note above the [G2E2][F2D2] chord change. With L:1/8, the first chord could be drawn on a single stem, with an open oval for the A4 note and filled ovals for the G2 and E2 notes. This sort of notation isn't at all unusual in keyboard music. The abc seems quite readable to me. Using my absorptive-tie proposal: [A2--G2E2] [A2F2D2] Surely that's more readable? OK, I'm with you and it's growing on me. It would be necessary for something I saw the other day which would need to be written [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] although there would still need to be intelligence within the programme to recognise that the two Bs were not melody notes. Do you mean the B's are tied or printed as one note? If the latter, using the absorptive tie notation: [d2-] [d2--B2--G2] [d2B2G2] the d is a crotchet tied to a minim, the B is a minim. Or did I get the semantics wrong? I'd expect [d6z2]2 to mean the same as [d12z4] (whatever *that* meant) - there are obvious reasons for extending chord notation to allow for postfixed length factors (i.e. just about everybody assumes they *are* allowed when first using the notation) so no proposed extension ought to preclude that. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the shortest-note rule. Recently someone pointed out that some of my files have notation like [A3G] with no length for the second note. There's a reason for this. It doesn't matter what the reason is, there can't be so many files like that that it's worth distorting the whole design of ABC to fit them. The solution for problems like that is to write a conversion utility, fix any legacy files with it and then move on. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Jack Campin wrote - OK, I'm with you and it's growing on me. It would be necessary for something I saw the other day which would need to be written [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] although there would still need to be intelligence within the programme to recognise that the two Bs were not melody notes. Do you mean the B's are tied or printed as one note? It's a bit difficult to explain without diagrams and waving your arms around. [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] represents one bar of 3/4 time. The d6 is a dotted minim over a crotchet rest. The [B2G2]s are two separate (untied) crotchet length chords. A classic Dum Ching Ching rhythm with the Dum sustained for the whole bar. Your absorptive-tie idea strikes me as a less than intuitive way of representing this. [d6z2][B2G2][B2G2] would work for shortest note. [z2d6][B2G2][B2G2] would work for first listed note and shortest note. None of them make sense for first listed note = melody note. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Jack writes: | There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the | shortest-note rule. Recently someone pointed out that some of my | files have notation like [A3G] with no length for the second note. | There's a reason for this. | | It doesn't matter what the reason is, there can't be so many files | like that that it's worth distorting the whole design of ABC to fit | them. | | The solution for problems like that is to write a conversion utility, | fix any legacy files with it and then move on. You're right, of course. However, if I were to spend time time writing such a conversion program right now, it would almost certainly be wrong. The current discussion has all I need to convince me of that. It's obvious that I (and probably lots of other abc users and implementers) don't clearly understand what the rules are here. Or, more likely, what the (currently rather ambiguous rules) will be when people finally iron out an agreement. I can probably hack together a little perl program that will do the job, and it will probably only take me 10 or 20 minutes. But I don't really want to do this a dozen times; I'd rather do it once. It'll probably be a few years before the abc community decides what the output should look like and published a clear, unambiguous standard doc that I can code to. In particular, since among other things I've been working with a few player programs, I've generally typed chords with the assumption that the first note was whatever I thought was the melody note. This works (for some value of works) with programs that I have now. But it's becoming obvious that others think the note order should mean something else. Since I don't quite follow all the arguments, I don't think I should be prematurely writing any code that will be based on what is probably a misunderstanding. So for now, I might as well not waste my time. I'll just wait until I understand what the converter's output really should be. In the meantime, I'll fix things up by hand when I stumble across them, and work on the principle that If it works with the tools at hand, that's good enough for now. Back to you ... ;-) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Muse as released does *not* use the shortest note wins rule. In fact it's pretty restrictive which can make it a pain for keyboard users. At the moment I'm doing a major rewrite (called Muse2) which is aimed at 1. Choral singers (better control over playback - done) 2. Keyboard players (live Midi in and all this polyphony stuff) 3. Singer songwriters (better lyrics stuff) plus a host of smaller things. In fixing the restrictions on within-staff, within-voice polyphony - and in particular in trying to type in various keyboard parts (The Messiah being the biggest) I found that the rule that seemed to work was shortest note wins. So that is the rule used within the body of Muse2. I chose it because it seemed to work. The worst that can happen is that you have to pad out one of the unnamed voices with a rest. i.e. [D4G]zFE D4. I can tolerate a different rule for ABC input and output from that within the body of Muse2. Output is easy I could just sort the chords to be shortest-first. Input is a little trickier, I'd have to invent that z. But I'm not particularly convinced that it's a good idea. I do have some sympathy with the first note is the melody idea - and we can't have both. I had a few complaints (actually very few) about the severe restriction in Muse (Muse-1 that is). It insisted that all notes within a chord be the same length and required that you either essentially ignored when the notes ended (as apparently Bach did because his prelude No.1 is written out as all quavers but he used to hold all the notes down when he played it) or else write it all out with ties (which can look pretty bad on the page). Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie wrote: | ... In fixing the restrictions on within-staff, | within-voice polyphony - and in particular in trying to type in various | keyboard parts (The Messiah being the biggest) I found that the rule that | seemed to work was shortest note wins. So that is the rule used within | the body of Muse2. I chose it because it seemed to work. The worst that | can happen is that you have to pad out one of the unnamed voices with a | rest. i.e. [D4G]zFE D4. Hmmm ... It seems to me that the melody you'd hear here would be GzFE D4. This would mean that [GD4]zFE D4 would be a good way to write this for a player that treated the first note as the melody. This would also work with the first note and shortest note length rules. I've written out a fair amount of fiddle music that would be easy if I could use this approach. But since abc's current rules really don't say what happens in such cases, I've been a bit careful about such things. Most often, I just ignore this sort of drone note, and excuse the omission on the grounds that someone who knows the style will know to play it anyway. | I can tolerate a different rule for ABC input and output from that within | the body of Muse2. Output is easy I could just sort the chords to be | shortest-first. Input is a little trickier, I'd have to invent that z. Perhaps a good approach would be to legitimize the idea of putting a length after a chord, but if it it omitted, it defaults to either the first or the shortest length. Currently, abc2ps uses the first note's length, but this shouldn't be terribly difficult to change. | But I'm not particularly convinced that it's a good idea. I do have some | sympathy with the first note is the melody idea - and we can't have both. This idea is in use already, and it's musically valuable to know what the melody note is. So if it's not the first note in a chord, we'll want a way to say which it is. The current players that use the first note is melody rule probably all do this because it's easy to implement. There's a good chance that, if some other schemes were used, implementers would casually ignore it, and justify this on the grounds that you can't demand that they implement every obscure feature in the first release. Writing an abc player is a sufficiently complex task that you'd expect them to take a lot of short cuts initially. So we'll probably always have some abc software that until I have time to fix it ignores all but the first note of chords. | I had a few complaints (actually very few) about the severe restriction in | Muse (Muse-1 that is). It insisted that all notes within a chord be the | same length and required that you either essentially ignored when the notes | ended (as apparently Bach did because his prelude No.1 is written out as all | quavers but he used to hold all the notes down when he played it) or else | write it all out with ties (which can look pretty bad on the page). This can also be handled by something else that's common in piano and guitar music: a hanging tie to the right of a note that means Let this note sound for an unspecified time. There's no way that I know to say this in abc at present. It's yet another way that keyboard and guitar music is the worst case for music notation. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Jack Campin wrote: Or did I get the semantics wrong? I'd expect [d6z2]2 to mean the same as [d12z4] (whatever *that* meant) Sorry, you are wrong. If the ]2 is just multiplied to the length of the notes inside the chord, there would be no benefit of the [..]2 notation. You can write better the same way you did: [d12z4] I meant that each note *in* the chord has the length as specified there and the length after the ] doesn't change that. The length after the ] gives the time when the *next* note after the chord starts. So with M:4/4 and L:1/4 [A4C4E4]2 a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 means play the AMinor for 4 beats but on the 3rd beat start a tremolo on the note a until the end of the bar. You can not write this with any of the discussed chord-length-rules because each note in the chord has length 4. Of course you can whrite the same as [z2A4C4E4] a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 suppossed the the chord-length is taken from the 1st note and rests in chords are allowed. Which one is more readable or easier to maintain is a matter of taste. But just now came in my mind: what if you could write this [A4E4C2]0 ab[C,2]0c'd' Supposed the length zero is allowed, this whould mean start A4 E4 C2 on beat one change the C to a C, one beat three. And on top play a melody abc'd' for the whole bar. Ok, take this as a joke. But why not allow the syntax. It's consistent whith the single note length modifier so it seems to me its easy to understand. There are no ambiguities in what it means so any software can easy figure out what to print or to play. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Starling wrote - : is about. Look at the Subject line. The topic is abc bracketed chord : notation. The melody note in a chord is the one that a monphonic : player plays. There's nothing deeper than that. Alright, I just wanted to get that clear. It does introduce a conflict if the melody note and the duration note are the first note in the chord. Making a long slow melody over percussive harmony, as in the style of some of Bach's choral music, would be impossible since the first note would have to be both the shortest note, to identify it as the chord duration marker, and the longest note, to identify it as the melody. I think the overall length of the chord would intuitively be the length of its shortest note. Although that requires an algorithm to determine the note of shortest duration, it is more accurate and conforms with written musical notation. The first note can remain the melody note and if someone wants to have shorter harmonies than melodies, they just add the shorter notes below. If someone wants to have longer harmony over melodic embellishment, they just add the longer notes below. I still say most of this trouble could be solved by implementing two voices on one staff. (In MIDI, it doesn't matter usually. ;) ) But I also maintain that the shortest note in a chord should determine the space it takes up. [A2] may be a half note, but once you say [A2G/4] it becomes a 16th note in terms of where the next note is started. [G/4A2] would be the same except G/2 is the melody note. I can also see as a possibility the [...]n notation, where the number 'n' specifies the default note length in the chord, and the space the chord takes up before the next note starts. [A4ce]2 could be a half note, where A is overridden to be displayed as a whole note but c and e are displayed as half notes and the entire chord is considered a half note. Similarly, to preserve melody note flexibility, [ceA4]2 [cA4e]2 and [ecA4]2 would all represent the same thing. Happy Birthday One way: (which really should be done in two voices, two staves. c.c) g/2g/2 | [ac3e3g3]gc' | [b2B2d2g2] g/2g/2 | [aB3d3g3]gd' | [c'2c2e2g2] The second way: g/2g/2 | [ac3e3g3]1gc' | [bBdg]2 g/2g/2 | [aB3d3g3]1gd' | [c'ceg]2 The multivoiced way I actually tested on abcm2ps and abcmidi: %%staves [1 2] V:1 clef=treble V:2 clef=bass [V:1]G/2G/2|AGc |B2 G/2G/2| AGd|c [V:2]z |[c3e3g3]|[B3d3g3] |[B3d3g3]|[c3e3g3] Would any of that work? Starling To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: AW: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Or did I get the semantics wrong? I'd expect [d6z2]2 to mean the same as [d12z4] (whatever *that* meant) Sorry, you are wrong. If the ]2 is just multiplied to the length of the notes inside the chord, there would be no benefit of the [..]2 notation. There is a considerable benefit: brevity. If you've written many melodybass pieces, you'll have done a helluva lot of [G,,8B,,8D,8] stuff that would have been more readably written [G,,B,,D,]8 . We have had several postings in this list over the years from people who've tried to do that and been surprised to find it didn't work. It's so intuitively sensible that it *ought* to work. I meant that each note *in* the chord has the length as specified there and the length after the ] doesn't change that. The length after the ] gives the time when the *next* note after the chord starts. So with M:4/4 and L:1/4 [A4C4E4]2 a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 means play the AMinor for 4 beats but on the 3rd beat start a tremolo on the note a until the end of the bar. You can not write this with any of the discussed chord-length-rules because each note in the chord has length 4. Using my absorptive-tie scheme: [A2--C2--E2--] [a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//--C//--E//--]\ [a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//--C//--E//--][a//A//C//E//] It's about the worst possible case for that, but it can represent it. Macros would make it more readable, but this is an obvious case where using separate voices is the way to go. Of course you can whrite the same as [z2A4C4E4] a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 suppossed the the chord-length is taken from the 1st note and rests in chords are allowed. That's completely counterintuitive - a rest that doesn't get either played or displayed and is just there to control the playing and display of other notes? But why not allow the syntax. It's consistent whith the single note length modifier so it seems to me its easy to understand. There are no ambiguities in what it means so any software can easy figure out what to print or to play. Software might manage it but I can't see many humans doing so. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
I really think we're wasting a lot of time on this. The only use for it is to notate an odd chord or brief passage of double-stopping in a piece which is otherwise monophonic. Anything more complex than this should always be notated using multivoice abc, which lets you define absolutely any time relationship you want between the notes and chords (different voices can even have different time signatures if necessary). Please let's just settle on one simple rule which involves the minimum change to existing practice and discuss something more profitable. I still favour the first-listed note rule (though it's not what my own program currently does). The 'add a length after the chord' proposal seems unnecessarily complicated, and is also ambiguous - by analogy with existing abc rules, adding '2' after the chord should make its length two default notes, but reading Toni Schilling's post it seems that it means to the chord length is to be double that of the first note (or was that of the shortest note?). Taking the shortest note as the length of the chord seems a little inflexible. If there's a problem differentiating between the melody note and the note which determines the length of the chord, or if you need a chord length which isn't actually represented among the selection of notes in the chord then you're definitely dealing with music which is too complex to represent this way, and you ought to be using multivoice, even if some of your voices are going to end up with lots of rests in them. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Bryan wrote I know you've been away Laurie but this has been discussed at some length for over a week now. A variety of people have given their reasons and examples. Perhaps if you would care to read the whole thread you could come up with specific reasons why you disagree and why you think shortest determines length is better. I did read the whole thread. I saw suggestions for 1. highest note prevails - but this is broken and was abandoned. 2. first note prevails with Jack Campin immediately saying but the semantics I'd need in every instance where I've wanted it would be that the *shortest* note counts. 3. shortest prevails The Rapunsel example from Eric Forgeot seemed to require this 4. None of these (Phil: Using unequal notes in chords just leads to too many ambiguities). A reply from Bryan saying Noteworthy Composer does it... but not saying what rule Noteworthy uses. Care to tell us? What rule does Noteworthy Composer use to determine when the next note starts after a mixed chord? John Chambers voted for first-note prevails Henrik voted for shortest prevails and gave an example of a fiddle tune (Målargubbens brudpolska) which requires shortest prevails. Toni Schilling suggested a length on the end [c4e]2 which seems to have caused confusion as some people thought that ought to mean c8e2. Bryan said 'the default behaviour without a following number would need to be the first-listed note but did not explain his reasoning - seems to me that shortest prevails works best. AbcMus implements shortest prevails Jack Campin floated absorptive ties. Bryan said I think it needs to be recognised that the [...] construct isn't going to cover all possibilities. Anything more complex will need separate voices, possibly combined on one staff. but did not produce any counter example to demonstrate the point. John Chambers said There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the shortest-note rule.. and at that point I got back from Sidmouth and joined in. There have been two examples given (Rapunsel and Målargubbens brudpolska) both of which were shortest prevails. The most powerful argument for first prevails is John's there's a lot of ABC that needs it. Some idea of just how much would help. It seems to me that 99% or ABC falls into the two categories of no written-out chords at all or all notes in a chord are the same length. The printed piano music that I have seen seems to reply on shortest prevails (it often also uses beams and other layout clues to connect up notes into voices but when these fail it falls back on shortest wins). To do something different in ABC is liable to cause confusion. Although it is true that ABC is a language in its own right, it's liable to cause confusion when it is needlessly different from staff notation. I'm still in favour of shortest. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
