Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
Eric Hellman wrote: We need good global metadata catalog/registries. Which of today's catalog functions will require a local institutional catalog tomorrow? I think this is an interesting question. My opinion is that the libraries of tomorrow will have a distributed catalogue: some of it local, some of it non-local. It makes sense to me that libraries invest in describing resources which are produced locally (i.e. as publishers, or institutional repositories), as well as in cataloguing resources which are locally appreciated in a distinct way. Institutions might just want to deal with a few facets of particular local interest, i.e. tagging resources according to some local vocabulary, and otherwise rely on other catalogues for their metadata. As well as their MARC records, each library of the future will collect a growing variety of metadata about their holdings, lending histories, reviews contributed by users, clusters harvested from usage patterns, or from full-text transcriptions, etc, etc, all of which they will want to make use of in conjunction with other catalogue data. Some of this data may be of general utility, but other data will be local in scope (and privacy laws may prohibit some data exchange in any case). These distinct information systems have to be easy to federate, efficient, and work transparently to users, so that institutions can confidently walk on two legs; relying on outside services for some data, while concentrating their own efforts on the areas where they can add most value to their users. Con
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
On Jun 7, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Conal Tuohy wrote: As well as their MARC records, each library of the future will collect a growing variety of metadata about their holdings, lending histories, reviews contributed by users, clusters harvested from usage patterns, or from full-text transcriptions, etc, etc, all of which they will want to make use of in conjunction with other catalogue data. Hear, hear! I assert that the catalog is not really a catalog (inventory list) at all, but more like a finding aid -- a tool used to identify, acquire, and use information pertinent to the information needs and expectations of a libraries primary clientele. This tool includes stuff from a traditional catalog, but it also includes stuff not necessarily owned by libraries, such as pointers to licensed materials (increasingly journal articles), the full-text of electronic books, pre-print archives, selected materials from OAI repositories, etc. -- Eric Morgan I'm hiring a Senior Programmer Analyst. See http://dewey.library.nd.edu/morgan/programmer/.
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
Eric Hellman wrote: Let's consider another function of a library catalog- resource discovery for users. Does anyone here really believe that in TEN years Google and/or competitors (maybe even mine) won't be able to hook into an inventory control system and deliver full-text, faceted, clustered, instantly relevant, translated search results out the wazoo from all the content in your library? If today's catalogs did an acceptable job of search we might be able to start a discussion. So, the argument is-- basically, very watered down-- that because the current OPACs suck, we need to abandon them, and make $global_vendor_catalog our default search entry point... which won't suck, and will also allow greater access to global resources? (and not worry our pretty little heads about it) I have always taken this problem from the other side of the equation-- (perhaps because it is the side I know I can have an effect on). Because local OPACs suck, we need to replace/improve them, not abandon them. This is part of our motivation in the Evergreen ILS project (open-ils.org). I believe we're doing a decent job, and our public and staff useability surveys back that up. I think NCSU also has the right idea. Who knows-- various vendors may come out with much-improved catalogs in response to the competition? One of our project goals is to push innovation in the larger library world. Let me be clear: I am not saying that a global catalog is not useful or shouldn't have a prominent role, but I think it should be secondary to the local, /at-fingertips collection/ and catalog (which doesn't suck). The local catalog should access the larger global resources when appropriate. We do this within our consortium-- we show the user what is immediately available on the shelf, what is up the street at the library in the next town, and then what is available throughout the state. There are going to be materials that local libraries will only want to make visible/accessible to their local users. One good example we're wrestling with here is one of our library systems has a subscription to an e-book service that only its patrons can check out. These are the kind of materials that should only show up in that library system's local catalog. The uber-cat would need to know about these rules and associated boundries. (and that's just one simple example) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Brad LaJeunesse PINES System Administrator Georgia Public Library Service
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
On the other hand we are a bunch o' hackers, and there is more to this thing (whatever it is called) than code. We need the perspective of catalogers, reference types, administrators, vendors, etc. Thus, the idea for creating a new list. Eric, some of these folks are already here and listening. I'm not a hacker (maybe in the next life ...), but am a former cataloguer and reference techie with current responsibility for monitoring a broad range of innovative discussions, including this forum; and we all know there are vendor types on code4lib, as well. I imagine there are, in fact, enough non-coder folks here to pipe up if things start down a not-so-functional path or a path with which we might take issue. Also, I'm sure those of us here who don't code are raising code4lib points of discussion in our own workplaces and, as needed, bringing those comments back here. So, for me, here is just fine. (And I also don't want yet another list!) Cheers. Din. Donna Dinberg Systems Librarian/Analyst Services Branch Library and Archives Canada Ottawa, Ontario, Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** My own comments only, not an official communication from Library and Archives Canada. **
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
On Jun 6, 2006, at 10:54 AM, Dinberg Donna wrote: Eric, some of these folks are already here and listening. I'm not a hacker (maybe in the next life ...), but am a former cataloguer and reference techie with current responsibility for monitoring a broad range of innovative discussions, including this forum; and we all know there are vendor types on code4lib, as well. I imagine there are, in fact, enough non-coder folks here to pipe up if things start down a not-so- functional path or a path with which we might take issue. Also, I'm sure those of us here who don't code are raising code4lib points of discussion in our own workplaces and, as needed, bringing those comments back here. Noted, but most people here on code4lib are hackers. The idea of a library catalog needs to reach a much wider audience. That is why I advocate a new list. -- Eric Lease Morgan University Libraries of Notre Dame I'm hiring a Senior Programmer Analyst. See http://dewey.library.nd.edu/morgan/programmer/.
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
nucat4lib ? hepcat4lib ? nopac4lib ? andrew p.s. happy national day of slayer, http://www.nationaldayofslayer.org/
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
I generally don't get into the discussion threads, but merely enjoy what is being said. However, Eric...you have touched a nerve. I agree that we need to be thinking about the way libraries will look in the future. But to say that the library catalog is serving only the purposes of the people who fund them and feed on their vanity, is pretty strong and misguided. Maybe you ought to sit with a reference librarian and ask why and how the catalog and OPAC are used. Teri Sierra, Chief Serial and Government Publications Division Library of Congress 202-707-5277 202-707-6128 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/05/06 8:50 PM I would argue that our energy would be better spent thinking about the next generation library rather than the next generation opac. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the very idea of having a catalog as an important component of a library smacks of retrograde thinking? To my mind, in a clean-slate NG Library architecture, the library catalog should only exist as a facade that recognizes of the vanity of libraries and the people who fund them. I can think of no technical justification for library catalogs as we look forward. If not the next generation, then the next-next generation of libraries. The functions that exist today in library catalogs need to be pushed in two directions- toward the user on one hand, and towards global registries on the other. the other Eric -- Eric Hellman, DirectorOCLC Openly Informatics Division [EMAIL PROTECTED]2 Broad St., Suite 208 tel 1-973-509-7800 fax 1-734-468-6216 Bloomfield, NJ 07003 http://www.openly.com/1cate/ 1 Click Access To Everything
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
In our effort to redefine the future, it is important that we all challenge our assumptions. We should cherish our heretics, right or wrong. My $.02 is that we don't need yet another system; we need to develop and adopt standards and coerce everyone in sight to play along. Standards enable innovation. Systems deter it. Jeff -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Teresa Victoriana Sierra Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:25 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list I generally don't get into the discussion threads, but merely enjoy what is being said. However, Eric...you have touched a nerve. I agree that we need to be thinking about the way libraries will look in the future. But to say that the library catalog is serving only the purposes of the people who fund them and feed on their vanity, is pretty strong and misguided. Maybe you ought to sit with a reference librarian and ask why and how the catalog and OPAC are used. Teri Sierra, Chief Serial and Government Publications Division Library of Congress 202-707-5277 202-707-6128 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/05/06 8:50 PM I would argue that our energy would be better spent thinking about the next generation library rather than the next generation opac. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the very idea of having a catalog as an important component of a library smacks of retrograde thinking? To my mind, in a clean-slate NG Library architecture, the library catalog should only exist as a facade that recognizes of the vanity of libraries and the people who fund them. I can think of no technical justification for library catalogs as we look forward. If not the next generation, then the next-next generation of libraries. The functions that exist today in library catalogs need to be pushed in two directions- toward the user on one hand, and towards global registries on the other. the other Eric -- Eric Hellman, DirectorOCLC Openly Informatics Division [EMAIL PROTECTED]2 Broad St., Suite 208 tel 1-973-509-7800 fax 1-734-468-6216 Bloomfield, NJ 07003 http://www.openly.com/1cate/ 1 Click Access To Everything
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
Hi, On 6/7/06, Jonathan Rochkind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My impression is that there are LOTS of catalogers interested in discussing this topic---the future of The Catalog. As much as I would love to disagree with you, I don't. :) My stance on this is not to let hackers create applications as they see fit, dear Dog, no! I'm a die-hard user-centred design and usability guy; my life is dedicated to develop solutions fit for the user, wheter that be patrons, catalogers, super-users and otherwise. I'm more talking about politics of *actually* doing something; I find it easy to talk about innovation with my collegues, but hard to do in practice, although we're setting up a labs area these days in an attempt to break free of the tyranny of PRINCE2 and top-down hiearchies. But hey, i realise this is probably besides the point; if we have fruitful discussions, maybe someone can do something with it. Some coders seem to assume that the cataloging community doesn't realize the need for change, or doesn't understand the possibilities of the online catalog. I think this is more and more NOT the case. Catalogers too realize that things are broken, change is the topic of discussion. Actually, I've found the reverse to be true; catalogers overly aware of things being broken, but having hackers that either can't see the problem or are too busy to do so. My feeling about this all is that we're too busy maintaining the MARC Legacy than create a shining new one which may or may not solve the problem. Of course, the problem with MARC is the culture not the technology, so in order to change the culture we need a *whopping* effort put in by *all* libraries around the world. No very likely, but it would be fantastic if we could. But such common vision is desperately needed. I'd say such common vision is desperately needed on the management level! What drives the libraries if not management? Sure, footsoldiers and captains can push the envelope, but only so far before it becomes political, huge, convuluted, a project with a steering commitee, and so forth. For me the strategy is to create prototypes to demonstrate what we're on about, and in my case I do that *with* catalogers, reference librarians and other friends around the library / library world. The idea here is to unite the bottom soldiers in such a way that the top management can see the light and resource and process accordingly. So we desperately need more forums for discussion involving both catalogers and developers, focused on this topic. No, we desperately need everyone to join the same forums! Not more forums, but less! Less is more. We don't need yet another commitee; we need one stronger one. But hey, I'm dreaming. As Eric writes, an important topic for discussion is: To what degree should traditional cataloging practices be used in such a thing, or to what degree should new and upcoming practices such as FRBR be exploited? The danger here is that automated processes adds a quality check to our processes, and a lot of people don't like that, especially top management, because it points out mistakes made in the past. Technically we don't have many problems, we can do pretty much anything we'd like to do if we really wanted to, but it's all about internal politics and shuffeling of resources which decides wheter it should be done or not. If *management* don't understand what hackers and catalogers and reference librarians are talking about, we're stuffed! Anyway, I don't think we disagree on this, only the part about needed yet another mailing-list. Regards, Alex -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
On 6/6/06, Alexander Johannesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You can thank NCSU for bringing the catalogers, reference types, administrators, vendors, etc. to the table. Hmm, how so? I've been at the table with many of them for many years already and know them quite well. :) Are you referring to something specific? That by trotting out their Endeca powered catalog, they've finally gotten the tangible that we nerds have been unable to get institutional support for. Now every librarian in the country wants clustering and faceted search. But this time last year, I defy you to tell me that you could have trotted out a project like that to anybody outside the systems office (that wasn't already labelled a 'systems apologist'). -Ross. Regards, Alexander -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
Hiya, On 6/7/06, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That by trotting out their Endeca powered catalog, they've finally gotten the tangible that we nerds have been unable to get institutional support for. Now every librarian in the country wants clustering and faceted search. Sorry, I'm in the wrong country. :) In fact, that event as much as it triggered peoples hearts and minds, it never shook the foundation of the OPAC in this place. But this time last year, I defy you to tell me that you could have trotted out a project like that to anybody outside the systems office (that wasn't already labelled a 'systems apologist'). Possibly not. Hmm. No, not with the OPAC, but other systems. I think libraries have put too much faith in vendors who create crappy systems and continues to do so. If vendors want libraries to buy their stuff, they need to make sure they've got good stuff; it's getting easier and easier to do these things ourselves. Alex -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
I think this makes perfect sense. We need this forum. The catalog is going to be with us in one form or another. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how the library field is sooo quick to throw overboard useful tools just for the sake of something different. The ILS in its present form has LOTS of room for improvement but it doesn't mean we have to hide it behind other labels or have to turn it into some nebulous concept that doesn't mean anything. Why do librarians instinctively run away from their purpose? I've worked all over the place in the library world and I work in a public library now. Here on Mount Olympus we spend so much time arguing pendantically about MARC-this and Z39.50-that, and fretting and worrying about what OCLC is up to. All the while our patrons are coming up to the OPAC search stations and using the all too limiting user interface we present them to type in the one or two keywords that they know in order to find something in the library. Do they care about all what we talk about? No!!! They just want to find their book or resource in whatever form it is in, get it, and go on with their lives. The catalog is one of the the main interfaces to the library that all patrons use. How can we make that experience most productive? We need to pay lot of attention to that. Peter Schlumpf -Original Message- From: Michael Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Jun 5, 2006 9:04 PM To: CODE4LIB@listserv.nd.edu Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list I have been reading the comments here and I am in favor of creating a list for discussing the next generation catalog/information system/whatever. I have been to 2 workshops in the last month where I have heard 2 people from different universities talk about OCLC being *THE* interface to the library catalog in the future -- truly a WorldCat. I consider myself open to new ideas but this one really worries me. And when you look at OCLCs long range plans, they want to become *THE* library interface. We need something. My ILS has decided that their next generation catalog will be a portal with its own database, etc. I already have one database with MARC data why do I need another to hold the non-MARC data. Why isn't my ILS working to expand/create the next generation MARC record? I think the next generation catalog goes hand and hand with the next generation of MARC. -- Michael Bowden Harrisburg Area Community College [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6/5/2006 8:17:07 PM On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:33 PM, Alexander Johannesen wrote: What's wrong with keeping such discussions to this very list? It's very on-topic, and I'm not sure I need yet another list (I think I'm up to around 30-something now!). I understand this sentiment. Really! On the other hand we are a bunch o' hackers, and there is more to this thing (whatever it is called) than code. We need the perspective of catalogers, reference types, administrators, vendors, etc. Thus, the idea for creating a new list. -- Eric Lease Morgan University Libraries of Notre Dame I'm hiring a Senior Programmer Analyst. See http://dewey.library.nd.edu/morgan/programmer/.
Re: [CODE4LIB] next generation opac mailing list
On 6/6/06, Michael Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We need something. My ILS has decided that their next generation catalog will be a portal with its own database, etc. I already have one database with MARC data why do I need another to hold the non-MARC data. Why isn't my ILS working to expand/create the next generation MARC record? I think the next generation catalog goes hand and hand with the next generation of MARC. Oh, this one is easy to answer; we need to get away from MARC. No, not the content of MARC, nor the idea of it, nor necessarily even the MARC format and standard itself, but we need to get away from we need MARC and the idea that knowledge sharing in libraries are best done through MARC and that Z39.50 must be part of our requirements. For example, MARC can hold some change control info, but never to the granulaity that supports for example an NBD which can properly update records and work on a distributed model. But as soon as we put that info outside of MARC, the culture will choose to ignore the problem rather than try to change it. The *culture* of MARC is the problem. I don't think the OPAC will go away, nor that it absolutely must, but the very idea of an OPAC is based on knowing what our patrons want; books that we've cataloged. But all too often we have no idea what they want; all we've got are assumptions. I think we've come a long way, but the time to look anew to what purpose the OPAC serves certainly is ripe. Ok, I'll stop now. :) Regards, Alex -- Ultimately, all things are known because you want to believe you know. - Frank Herbert __ http://shelter.nu/ __
