today at 16:00 CEST, round 3 of the codecentric Challenge
(between Franz-Josef Dickhut (6-dan) and CrazyStone)
starts in Computer Room of KGS.
Do you have links to results of the first two rounds?
Thanks,
Darren
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is
clearly lost).
Darren
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My new book: Data Push Apps with HTML5 SSE
Published by O'Reilly: (ask me for a discount code!)
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Also on Amazon and at all good booksellers
that it becomes misleading.
Darren
[1]: This was the same argument I made in favour of a very large test
suite (e.g. 10,000 positions, from all stages of the game, and all
styles and strengths of game), as the best way to evaluate progress.
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memory model and atomics.
Darren
*: I've been using futures to handle the async complexity in
JavaScript/jQuery. For certain kinds of problems they can be a very
graceful solution.
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Pachi's definition looks correct to me. There are a few rare exceptions to
this definition but it should work well in general.
Agreed. The classic exception is:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?TwoHeadedDragon
(I *think* that represents *all* the exceptions; everything else that is
regarded as alive
As some of you are already aware of it,
the 7th UEC Cup Computer Go Tournament entry is now open.(Mar 15/16)
Do you have any details (even in Japanese) of the symposium happening on
March 18/19?
Thanks,
Darren
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Thanks for the commentary Kato-san.
2nd game: Almost perfect win by B. Chang 8p had studied this opening a
lot and had a big confidence. Ohashi 6p (well-known 9x9 expert) was
very glad because the opening until move 7 practically get concluded as
B+0.5, thanks to Chang. W E5 (6th) was
Zen will play against two pros in 9x9 and one top amateur in 13x13,
and Ozawa Ichiro in 19x19. Ozawa is a one of the famous Japanese
politician. He is known as strong Go player.
Wow, the Shadow Shogun! I didn't know he plays go! I wonder if he plays
the way he plays politics: scatter a few
I am afraid can depend on rule set in use. I guess that under Japanese
rules bent four is dead by definition.
If you had four bent-fours, one in each corner, all dead in Japanese
rules for the same colour, *and* four un-removeable ko threats, is that
the position that will give the biggest
I know it means very little but Valkyria just reached 9Dan ...
http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player.jsp?plid=22065
Congratulations! The level of 9x9 ch.*.1.1 play on LG is very high,
because everyone playing there is taking it seriously, knows how to use
long time allowances, and is
100 [elo] pts/rank is really very wrong...
Are you defining rank in terms of a win-rate, or in terms of handicap
stones?
Darren
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... I'm going by the Measuring program strength thread (Aug
3013) where people are getting 50% against GnuGo with 1K to 10K playouts.)
Actually, in that thread Hiroshi was saying he only needs 350
playouts, and Detlef was at 700. So it seems you're off by roughly a
factor 10.
Yes, I was
How many probes/playouts are necessary for a 19x19 MCTS bot to beat a human
amateur? Let's say 5k rating.
(5 kyu will need defining a bit more: can we assume a KGS 5-kyu?)
If light playouts (i.e. random, with just the most basic go knowledge to
prevent filling your own eyes and ko checking to
. Are we already
using Markov-Chains in MCTS, just by another name? If not, why not?
(I.e. is it an idea that was tried but didn't work very well for reasons
we don't understand very well? Or there something about the nature of
the go rules that mean it cannot be done? etc.)
Thanks,
Darren
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MCMC has little to do with what we do in computer Go. In MCTS we have
a Markov Chain and we take Monte-Carlo samples from it, but the
purpose is really not the same at all as what MCMC algorithms do. I
recommend the wikipedia articles. It is difficult to really get an
idea of MCMC by reading
9x9 tournament had 10 participants, and Zen won.
1st Zen 8 -1
Congratulations to Zen on a clean sweep of the go tournaments!
I'm sure feeling vindicated is one of the baser emotions, but I feel it
anyway: I remember 10 or so years ago (*) people telling me 9x9 was a
dull game, not
)
BTW, I'm nothing to do with conference organization, but as a Tokyo
local, if anyone has general questions, I'm happy to try and help.
(Perhaps off-list, unless you think others will have the same question.)
Darren
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The dynamic komi can be pretty large. I think I limit it to 30 points or
so. If the komi were only a point or two you would see a lot of games won
by 2.5 points or so. You can see from the results that the margins are
often pretty large.
Hello David,
Interesting! Is the benefit just from
My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/93/index.html
Round-7: why is W ahead by 16 points? Aren't all the white
stones in the upper right corner dead?
Agreed (unless there is a typo in the diagram and those two white stones
are not in atari: it seems like black should have played
think others will have the same question.)
Darren
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Investigating the Limits of Monte Carlo Tree Search Methods in Computer Go
Huang, Aja; Mueller, Martin
. But if sticking with a chart, some horizontal lines would have
helped.)
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Thank you for the information. Despite of the fact that I probably be
able to acelerate several of these functions at a time you are right.
That will speed up the program maybe twice, but I think that the
hardware will be only valuable if it will be able to speed up the
program at least in an
Looks like Amatuer 6dan, maybe genius Pro Go player lost against
Computer. (with picture)
http://sankei.jp.msn.com/life/news/130320/igo1303202042-n1.htm
Here is a quick translation:
The first Densei-sen, between pro go players and computer software
took place at UEC, in Chofu, Tokyo,
to choose between mostly inaccurate, mostly
inapplicable and mostly intractable :-)
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E.g., they report that the top-ranked move from their neural net has a 10%
chance of matching a pro move on a 19x19 board
And if you use a large-scale pattern approach (e.g., Remi's work), then you
can predict over 40% and maybe up to 50% of pro moves.
This is a poor measure of strength
: spend
less time on normal distributions, more time when the distribution is
messy. (But I wonder if more time will just make the two peaks stand
out more?)
Darren
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explained in your paper.)
Darren
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wins a top title in his life.
Good point about the stability of rank. But is a 62:38 ratio enough to
claim that kind of difference? If they play 20 title matches a year,
over a 20 year career, isn't that enough for them to get the winning
streak required to win some titles?
Darren
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+ wins from 5 games? If over 0.9 I think you can make the case that the
strength difference is of practical significance.
Or, yes, do it all in ELO ratings, and decide on how many ELO points
feels significant.
Darren
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affect the result.)
Darren
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learn new accents: the existence
of impressionists.
Impressionists like Debussy or like Degas? Or perhaps you mean
impersonators? :)
Meaning two here!
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Impressionists
Darren
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If I go to the email blacklist checker at
http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx/ and enter the list server's IP
address (173.203.204.227), it tells me that the list server appears on
the SORBS-SPAM and Spamhaus-ZEN blacklists.
I think this is likely to cause mail from the list to be
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seriously and used pretty longer time.
Thanks Hideki,
That is very useful background information. Maybe next year they can cut
his appearance money and instead increase the prize money for the game ;-)
Darren
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Fascinating answers, thanks everyone.
Although a theoretical maximum is nice to ponder upon, in an
experiment to safe computationtime, I tested my software for a superko
up to cycles of ten. After several tens of thousands of game it came
in an infinite loop due to a 12-cycle positional
a in the current position, just do
if (Key1 == ComputeZobristKey(Key4, a))
{
// Forbid move a
}
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! Hopefully the peer-review will rein in overly verbose
or unfocused authors. For the conference organizers: they offer free
advertising.
Please reply in this thread if you know of any other Open Journals that
are on-topic for people reading this list. Thanks,
Darren
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-territory.jpg
(but, in his defense, Ingo was posting at 5am :-)
Darren
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are based on reading other people's analysis, not my own; it is now
years since I've had a hope of beating the computers.
Darren
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52% to white at
move 80.)
Darren
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hardest to deal with. (To me that implies you
have to come out of the fuseki ahead, given MCTS's endgame strength.)
Darren
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A couple of questions in the game comments yesterday, about Zen, that
seemed to go unanswered:
1. Does it have an opening book? Is it hand-made, or a cache of long
MCTS analysis, or something in between?
2. Does it think on the opponents time?
Darren
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vs. five machines). I couldn't
find it mentioned explicitly but, reading between the lines, Yonenaga
sounds weaker than a young 4-dan pro.
A bit of discussion is here:
http://forum.81squareuniverse.com/viewtopic.php?p=8438#p8438
Darren
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Thanks, I found it on the Android Market and purchased my copy.
Someone complained that it does not play as well on the Android as it does
on a 24 core computer. Is that true? What a disappointment! I
laughed out loud when I saw that.
But, more seriously, does anyone know how many
.
If(MoveIsKoThreat() !KoOnBoard())ChooseSecondBestMove()
Or did you fix it by tuning the MCTS algorithms, or something like that?
Darren
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:
http://dcook.org/gobet/
and created another poll (5 options this time - see if you can guess not
just the winner but the final score).
Darren
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in strength.
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: John claims not to be worried about starting the
match on Friday The Thirteenth, as he was born on one!
Darren
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is the publicity :-)
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thing is everyone could set up 10 small
instances and all rounds could be played simultaneously :-)
Downsides are that that is not much CPU, so level of play is going to be
low.
Darren
[1] http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/#instance
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for the sponsor supplying the hardware is also welcome.)
Darren
*: I.e. actual playouts/second/core compared to pachi running on just
one of the cores.
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(in Japanese rules) favours black.
But I agree that perfect komi is likely to turn out to be 7pt.
Magnus, do you have an opening line for 5.5pt komi that you think is a
certain black win?
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Selection Rule better than
majority voting system by Takuya Sugiyama, Takuya Obata, Kunihito Hoki
and Takeshi Ito.
(Unfortunately I couldn't find a free download online.)
Darren
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is still in limbo. Sadly I don't think that situation will change this year.
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in the minimax tree as I
give each program a few minutes of CPU time for every move.)
Darren
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]: This drops to $320-330/month with a 1 year reserved instance (the
$1820 up front payment, divided by 12, plus $175/month).
Data transfer in/out would be another $25/month (based on 100GB in and out).
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agree that scaling won't get you much
further, hunt for some really great problem positions.
In the blue corner, those who disagree, scrounge even more CPU power to
see if just one more doubling will give a breakthrough.
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programmers won't be enough, but I should think 100+ non-anonymous go
players would be.
The other great way to encourage new features would be for Nick Wedd to
require it for just one of his tournaments. ...but KGS first need to
support it, and you are back to your petition :-)
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amount of complex
semeai where this knowledge only have an effect deep down in the
playouts. Some algorithm of online learning of good tactics seems to
be necessary.
Darren
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it be set to use just a certain number
of threads?
A commandline GTP interface is my other wishlist item, but I do realize
that one is just wishful thinking in a commercial product :-)
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(if that is what you have
done) is amazing.
Darren
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one big tree search. ;-)
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then all the script has to do is
know which commands need a list of space-separated coords converted into
a json array, etc.
Darren
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to know how different the two programs are. Bonobot seems to be
running on KGS on some fast hardware; is Erica also that strong when
running on similar hardware?
Darren
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Counting Liberties and Winning Capture Races [by Richard Hunter]
gives some basics. It's definitely not comprehensive, but it might be
a good start.
It does have 40 pages on semeai and ko. It also deals with the
exceptions to the save the ko until last proverb.
If interested in the subject
;-)
Darren
[1]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fuego-devel
[2]: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/mailing_lists.html
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is quite possible. Little Golem still uses 5.5pt komi, and the
results among top players shows only a very slight lead for black.
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): 303 - 309
:-)
Petr Pasky Baudis
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this on a best effort, no
guarantees basis.
Just thought I'd bring this up here, to give others a chance to disagree
and say if Nick needs to be more hands-off for his tournaments.
Darren
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hardware.
Or, for an offline analysis program that runs less than a calendar
month, also consider EC2 spot instances. They appear to be about 1/2 to
1/4 the cost of a normal EC2 instance.
Darren
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On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 08:31:04PM +0900, Darren Cook wrote:
Dynamic komi. (E.g. if it thinks it has only 30% chance of winning at
7.5pt komi, but if you reduce the komi to 5.5pts it thinks it has a 55%
chance of winning, then reduce the komi to 5.5pts: it will play an
intelligent looking
1when behind (even slightly), Fuego appears to collapse and play
rubbish, in my experience this is most easily perceived in the
late/middle game.
Dynamic komi. (E.g. if it thinks it has only 30% chance of winning at
7.5pt komi, but if you reduce the komi to 5.5pts it thinks it has a 55%
The risk to scalability is that we will bias the search by focusing on
variations that a blitz program cannot discover, but a massively scalable
system could.
It seems to me that improvements in playout policy would apply to any
time control. But perhaps in-tree heuristics should be
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In your survey, the spread for a super-human program, from those that
correctly predicted 2010 for shodan,
is from 2023 to 2150.
So even between the best predictors sofar, there was huge disagreement
when it comes topling humanity ...
I guess current knowledge of the effectiveness and
in strength, but nothing amazing.
Darren
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was to:
a) be patient and wait for it to screw up;
b) don't make weak groups, as the computer is good at attacking them.
Darren
*: I'll write up my notes on using Amazon EC2 in a few days. If you're
actually interested, please do nag me.
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try and write reports each day.
Darren
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It seems first game today is at 2:30pm (GMT), not 10am...
We might start earlier now... I'll try and post just before the game
starts, for anyone wanting to follow the games from the start.
Darren
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It seems first game today is at 2:30pm (GMT), not 10am.
Starting at 12:10pm-ish. We had a short time-limit test match, and
decided to do away with byo-yomi (too hard to keep match clock in sync
with the computer clock) so we've increased main clock to 110m each,
sudden death.
Second game today
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Will the games be transmitted on KGS?
That is the plan, assuming we have a spare computer for it.
Games will be run on my notebook, at least for the first two games.
Assuming my email works okay, I'll try and write reports each day.
Darren
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, I
often see a move has been chosen and have to scroll through the debug
comments to discover just what the final P.V. was.
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sells this unit!
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
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://www.directron.com/998770.html
[4]:
http://www.directron.com/bx80614x5680.html
[5]:
http://www.directron.com/bx80614x5650.html
[6]:
http://www.directron.com/mbdh8qm32o.html
[7]:
http://www.directron.com/opteronhexa.html
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that motherboard is for the 8000 series opterons, not the 2000 series ones
you quote. The cheapest 8000 series is $1610 each.
Thanks for the correction David.
Poking around some more I found the G34 AMD CPUs, with 8 or 12 cores on
a single CPU. $420 for a dual-CPU motherboard [1]. Cheapest
/graphPage.jsp?user=ManyFaces1
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The latter was presented at CG2010, and the abstract mentions improving
the MCTS solver when a game has more than two outcomes, though from
memory the presentation itself didn't mention draws much.
Darren
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best female shogi player lost against a computer.
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20101012p2a00m0na012000c.html
The computer consisted of 3 or 4 different programs,
teamed up in some way. Maybe, Darren Cook can get
ideas from this for his bot-team which has to play
against John Tromp
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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http
will already be useful.
Darren
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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Mogo GTP support is it outputs the showboard
command response to stderr, not stdout!
Darren
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
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games.
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
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, is the intransitivity
simple coincidence, or due to some difference in the
strengths/weaknesses of the three programs?
Darren
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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author is allowed to put their own paper on their website.
The one I mentioned is already on Tristan's web site here:
http://www.lamsade.dauphine.fr/~cazenave/papers/mcsolver.pdf
(I'll get my own paper up real soon...)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet
leading
the tournament or playing someone stronger than them.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles
) were as white, not as black (*); then they won as black
against the same opponent. I'm looking forward to studying those game
records in particular.
Darren
*: For most of the other strong programs the losses were as black, so
the 7.5pt komi is too high hypothesis still stands.
--
Darren Cook
board sizes and is a
feature of the game.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
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