on Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 08:17:41AM -0800, Eric Rescorla ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
on Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:10:27PM -0800, Eric Rescorla ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
However, if he can price discriminate, he can sell two copies,
On Thursday 09 January 2003 01:03 pm, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
I am unaware of legal region-free players being generally available in
the US, although I may be wrong on this.
They are available at any Best Buy or Fry's Electronics. They
just can't advertise it on the boxes. See the following
At 08:45 AM 01/08/2003 -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote:
Maybe. Not necessarily if that meant that no new movies ever got
made. Now, the UK isn't a big enough market for this, but consider
what would happen if the US said listen, free drugs would be great
for consumers so let's get rid of all drug
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:18:33 +
From: Pete Chown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Alan wrote:
Another argument for the regions is the differing formats for TV
signals. (NTSC v.s. PAL.) It is a bogus argument as you can find DVD
players that will convert the signal with little or no problem.
Eric Rescorla wrote:
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Therefore, your graphs say to me: market segmentation is indicative of
Of course. But the point that you seem to be missing is that there are
situations where a monopoly can Pareto-dominate non-monopoly situations.
The
Bill Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It's fairly well-known that far more people died from
regulation-caused delays in deployment of several heart-attack drugs
than from active damage by failures such as misuse of thalidomide,
though some people still believe that we're better off because
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Eric Rescorla wrote:
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Therefore, your graphs say to me: market segmentation is indicative of
Of course. But the point that you seem to be missing is that there are
situations where a
John S. Denker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Eric Rescorla wrote:
When there is a conflict between liberty and Pareto
dominance, economists get a headache.
Really? Maybe some of them do, but I suspect most of
them wouldn't formulate it as a conflict at all; they
would just ask how
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I thought I made a fairly clear and cogent original synopsis,
Clear, cogent, and wrong.
Eric Rescorla wrote:
So, in the matter of DVDs, we all agree that the product _has_ been
produced. There are only artificial barriers in the market.
No.
I thought I made a fairly clear and cogent original synopsis, but apparently we're
heading off into religious wars.
I'm going to invert Eric's argument:
Eric Rescorla wrote:
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The question raised was whether the commodity would be produced. The
I've been composing this reply for days, and the thread just keeps
getting longer, so I'll try to keep the response concise, and consolidate
in a single message.
Before it gets lost in the shuffle, I do want to thank John Gilmore for
actual technical crypto information! I had no idea that
William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[..]
Therefore, your graphs say to me: market segmentation is indicative of
Of course. But the point that you seem to be missing is that there are
situations where a monopoly can Pareto-dominate non-monopoly situations.
Eric Rescorla wrote:
Matt Blaze wrote:
Huh? DVD region coding doesn't prevent this at all; ripped decrypted
DVD mpeg files could be played anywhere.
I think that DRM mechanisms may increase piracy. A few years ago you
could buy a CD, knowing that it was a standard product which you could
use in certain ways.
Alan wrote:
Another argument for the regions is the differing formats for TV
signals. (NTSC v.s. PAL.) It is a bogus argument as you can find DVD
players that will convert the signal with little or no problem.
Actually my TV is happy with either. I always had the notion that I
wouldn't be
On Thu, 2003-01-09 at 10:17, Birger Toedtmann wrote:
David Turner schrieb am Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 01:29:39PM -0500:
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 05:50, Pete Chown wrote:
With DVDs we have a complex situation. Supposedly studios can make more
per film, so they can afford to make more
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Phil Karn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Exactly. Time segmentation already practiced by the movie studios and
book publishers, and it's pretty hard to arbitrage -- until somebody
invents time travel.
For books and CDs -- and as the region coding system breaks down,
Matt Blaze [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
By the way, import region-free DVD players *are* available, quite
legally, within the US, as are non-region 1 disks. Kim's video in NYC
is one source. They are all unfamiliar off brands, however - you won't
find Sony or Matsushita (deliberately)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Perry E. Metzger writes:
I don't know anyone who trades video files -- they're pretty big and
bulky. A song takes moments to download, but a movie takes many many
hours even on a high speed link. I have yet to meet someone who
pirates films -- but I know lots of
Pete Chown wrote:
John S. Denker wrote:
Note that in the absence of market segmentation,
the society as a whole is worse off.
I see what you mean, but do you think it applies to DVDs? The
segmentation needs to be in each market, between rich and poor
consumers. What we actually have is
On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, alan wrote:
Not to mention the two seasons of Futurama that are only available
on Region 2 PAL DVDs. (Or the other movies and TV shows not allowed
by your corporate masters.) They Live is another film only
available from Region 2. Maybe it tells too much about the
--
I wote:
I pirate films routinely
Correction. I watch made for TV shows distributed through the
internet routinely.
Full length films are not shared to any great extent, because
their sheer size makes them such a pain.
--digsig
James A. Donald
Eric Rescorla wrote:
No, this isn't true. Say that Americans are willing to pay 50% more
for DVDs than Europeans. It would make sense for producers to attempt
to segment the market.
You are right that producers would want to segment the market, but we
have no reason to introduce extra laws to
The truly amazing thing about this case is that the
crime would not have occured if the studios had used
decently-strong crypto. It's ironic that in an age when
for cryptographers enjoy a historically-unprecedented
lopsided advantage over cryptanalysts, the industry
adopted a system that
Pete Chown [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
One last point is that governments serve the interests primarily of
their own people. So the job of Britain's government is to get me,
and other Brits, the best possible deal on films within the UK. This
might mean balancing the interests of British
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Pete Chown wrote:
One last point is that governments serve the interests primarily of
their own people. So the job of Britain's government is to get me, and
other Brits, the best possible deal on films within the UK. This might
mean balancing the interests of British
Nomen Nescio wrote:
John S. Denker writes:
The main thing the industry really had at stake in
this case is the zone locking aka region code
system.
I don't see much evidence for this. As you go on to admit, multi-region
players are easily available overseas. You seem to be claiming
Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
on Tue, Jan 07, 2003 at 04:10:27PM -0800, Eric Rescorla ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
However, if he can price discriminate, he can sell two copies,
one at 3 and one at 6. This makes it profitable for him to
produce the book.
Isn't it about a million times more probable that the industry's main
concern was PEOPLE RIPPING DVDS AND TRADING THE FILES?
Well, zone locking helps curb this because it *reduces* the market for each
copy. The finer the zone locking resolution, the more effort an attacker needs
to make
John Gilmore wrote:
For normal products, market segmentation is neither
forbidden by law nor protected by law. ... The law is silent on
the issue.
This is false. Market segmentation by country is deliberately
outlawed by free trade laws and treaties, which exist to benefit
consumers by
John S. Denker wrote:
Note that in the absence of market segmentation,
the society as a whole is worse off.
I see what you mean, but do you think it applies to DVDs? The
segmentation needs to be in each market, between rich and poor
consumers. What we actually have is segmentation between
John S. Denker writes:
The main thing the industry really had at stake in
this case is the zone locking aka region code
system.
I don't see much evidence for this. As you go on to admit, multi-region
players are easily available overseas. You seem to be claiming that the
industry's main goal
Pete Chown [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John S. Denker wrote:
Note that in the absence of market segmentation,
the society as a whole is worse off.
I see what you mean, but do you think it applies to DVDs? The
segmentation needs to be in each market, between rich and poor
consumers.
It would be nice to have an enlightened discussion of such topics.
Lay people often react to differential pricing for the same good with a
sense of unfairness. No matter how many times they are lectured by the
economists that it is actually to the benefit of all that producers be able
to charge
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Nomen Nescio wrote:
John S. Denker writes:
The main thing the industry really had at stake in
this case is the zone locking aka region code
system.
I don't see much evidence for this. As you go on to admit, multi-region
players are easily available overseas. You
Nomen Nescio [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't see much evidence for this. As you go on to admit, multi-region
players are easily available overseas.
Sure, but they're generally illegal. I can buy grey market
non-regioned players in the U.S. but the manufacturers are violating
within the
On 7 Jan 2003, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
I don't know anyone who trades video files -- they're pretty big and
bulky. A song takes moments to download, but a movie takes many many
hours even on a high speed link. I have yet to meet someone who
pirates films -- but I know lots of hardened
--
On 7 Jan 2003 at 20:25, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
I don't know anyone who trades video files -- they're pretty
big and bulky. A song takes moments to download, but a movie
takes many many hours even on a high speed link. I have yet
to meet someone who pirates films -- but I know lots
--
On 8 Jan 2003 at 0:30, Ian Brown wrote:
the public tends to be skeptical when an industry claims that
expert opinion shows that what is good for the company will
also be good for the nation, and that state aid in enforcing
its desires will produce an economically efficient result
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